 Good evening everybody, welcome to the Private Property Farming Podcast. My name is Mbali Nwaka, your host every Tuesdays and Thursdays at 8pm, right here on the Private Property Channel. Thank you so much for watching yet another episode of the Farming Podcast and today we've got such a fantastic or an exciting topic at that chance. You could just tell how excited I am, I can't even talk because the guest that we have today has 29 years experience within the cannabis industry. And it seems like cannabis has just been around for about three or two years. You know, it's such a common buzzword of late. And it's quite interesting to know that there's a person who's dedicated almost three decades of his life or his career in the cannabis industry. And today we're talking about licensing cannabis in South Africa. So if you have an interest about cannabis farming or have heard about cannabis farming and just, you know, quite didn't understand how do you start cannabis farming and how do you license it? How do you trade? Well, I think today's topic or episode is the right one for you. We are approaching episode 90 and I believe today's episode 89. And so, yeah, what a way to just move on to a next level within the farming podcast. As always, if you have any questions, comments for the guest, please feel free to ask a question. And we're happy to respond live on to the show. So let's get right to it. And we are joined by Gurnal Fandavat. Gurnal, thank you so much for joining us. How are you doing? Good evening, Bali. Great. Thanks. Are you doing? Yeah, good evening to all the listeners out there as well. I'm happy to meet with you guys. Exciting talk. Likewise. I'm so excited. I mean, just off air, you're just telling me that you go by the name White Lion in the industry. And I see that you're a CEO of White Lion Holdings. Firstly, Gurnal, I think by means of introduction, kindly introduce yourself to our audience this evening and the work that you do within the cannabis industry in South Africa. Yeah, so AKA the White Lion in the cannabis industry, I got stoked at through many years of experience and extensive work in community programs and on the international level as well. I have a deep footprint in the cannabis cultivation sector. And yes, for me, it's been a long journey. Cannabis has always been part of my life. And I represent White Lion Holdings, also complete cannabis solutions, both startup companies of myself. We've moved on through the years and are well known in the sector. I would say we're the leading cultivation group in South Africa. And yeah, we represent and we help the larger scale farmers, people that's on a commercial and industrial scale would like to get into the cannabis sector. We get approached across the board from people that's in the agricultural sector, Maze, cattle, citrus where I am in the Western Cape. We deal with a lot of those citrus farmers at the moment that we actually help them. We take their hands and we give them a full turnkey solution from the beginning to the end. From genetics, from application, through genetics. We walk them through the whole process. Right, so like I was saying in my intro, you know, Cornell Cannabis Farming seems to be the trend of late, you know, for the past three years or so. And you've been in this industry for 29 years, you know. How did you start to be in the sector? And why didn't we hear about Cannabis Farming 29 years ago? Yeah, so I'm not going to tell you my whole story yet. I'll try and put it in a nutshell. It's been a long path for me and a hard walk. And it's, you know, the scammer clothes speak for itself, my uniform. It's been a tough. I refer to it as World War Wheat and Potelix. You know, I've been in World War Wheat and Potelix for at least the last 10 years of my life. Yeah, we came from obviously underground sector and more a recreational underground movement into a formal and agricultural sector. And it's where the underground had to take hands with regulations and also move on into a commercial and production sector, you know. So, yeah, my, my history is extensive from early nineties in the United States. After I studied chemical engineering, I climbed into the industry, came back in 99, brought the industry with me and also the skill of glass blowing at that stage. I've been to scientific glass blowing and that gave me a cutting edge in experience in extraction and so forth. I've got diagnosed with cancer because of the glass blowing and really got into the health benefits from cannabis and the specific cannabis world. Healed my own cancer through the injection and ingestion of the oil and so forth. And that was my, my ticket, you know, that was, that was just a switch in my brain, et cetera. This is my future and I've never ever looked back, helped a lot of people since then on the health benefits of it and moved over into the more professional and corporate sector of the industry as well. Hmm. Hmm. So, with cannabis farming, firstly, right, where can you farm cannabis in South Africa and for a farmer who wants to go into cannabis farming? What comes first? Is this building the farm and the infrastructure to start cannabis farming or getting the license first to start cannabis farming? Yeah, so right, rightfully, like you say, there's no restrictions to where you allow to grow like a specific province in South Africa or that it's open to all of South Africa. At this stage, it is under SAPRA, the South African regulatory authority that deals with cannabis applications of SAPRA. And yeah, it's, it's a license application to cultivate, manufacture, import cannabis for medicinal purposes and its application process that you follow. There's syllabus, you can say, farm for all. So there's the traction, the suitability as well, so you can put a license and you can get going. In South Africa, you have to go through quite a tedious process of establishing your facility first and laying the CAPEX out as well. So there's clear guidelines from SAPRA on how to comply with the compliance for getting a license and the compliance is exactly that. It's putting up a facility, having the land to do it on all the infrastructure. The application itself is quite a simple process. It's a form that you fill in and it's a $23,800 fee the last time I checked. But what really gets difficult then is after that you get queued for inspection to comply before you can get issued a license. And the compliance is tedious. It's the hard part of it. We help the farmer or the client to actually choose the location. It's very important for me a location where to grow. Obviously, if you're a cannabis expert, you'll be able to grow cannabis anywhere in the world. I can grow cannabis anywhere in the world for you, but some areas there's a lot more CAPEX intensive than other areas. So I like to from the word go inform the farmer where it'll suit his pocket the best to cultivate. So from site selection straight through to introducing the third parties you mentioned, we've paired ourselves with the best there is in the industry. I'm backed by international brands and international names that I've worked with for over 20 years. The Dutch guys, the Netherlands guys are known for their greenhouse capability and their technology. And they definitely might go to when it comes to the greenhouse structures. Just like that, I also have a construction team that does the buildings. So even with the cultivation, just for more information out there, the license is for cultivation undercover. That's what the license states. So you can literally put up a greenhouse or a shade net or so forth. It's not for open outdoor cultivation at this moment in time. It is still undercover and it's completely regulated. And yeah, we put together a site master file after the application and the site master file includes everything. It consists from the site layout to the processing facility with all the procedures, your equipment list of what's standing in that processing facility with the suppliers, all standard operating procedures with checklists for every aspect of the industry, service level agreements with third parties that we bring to the table as well. Yeah, there's a lot of isolation. You want to conform with traceability and tracking systems, genetic supplier agreements, offtake agreements, organograms, structure of your company, all of that. So as you can see out of this, it is a huge barrier to entry. If you look at all the capital you have to spend and also all the intellectual property that needs for you to comply. So the majority of our clients, they take comfort in us taking their hand and mitigating these risks for maybe not getting a license or mitigating the risk in failing in this industry because it's not an easy industry. A lot of people are out there with misinformation and get let by the nose because it's the green rush. Like you say, it's the buzzword now. The green wave has hit South Africa now, but the rest of the world has been there. I was in Colorado when it happened. I was in California when it happened. I was in Canada when it happened. I was in Lesotho when it happened. The same is busy happening. Yeah, it's a circle of events that's turned. Everybody is heavily invested in this space at the moment. I got to tell you the truth that everybody is looking at it. Big farmers looking at it. The mining industry is looking at it. All the food and beverage companies are looking at it. It's big business. It's big business for the future for South Africa. Right. Konal, you mentioned some critical points there. I heard you speak about Lesotho. However, the connection broke a bit there, right? So basically just to understand is that, you know, SAPRA has the guidelines to get the license. You mentioned the price of the license. So if a farmer had to start a commercial production within cannabis farming, and let's say they're reaching out to white line holdings, do they first look at the guidelines and build that their farm or the greenhouses in relation to the guidelines? So looking at the guidelines and you start building, you look and start building so that by the time the building of the infrastructure is done, your infrastructure speaks towards the guidelines and then you can have other certifications like global gap, etc. Is that correct? Correct. You're hitting the nail right on their head there. So that's that service that we provide. So we literally take the hand and we guide them through those guidelines by putting up the facility for them and doing all the paperwork for them and the side masterful and then help them to get that license. And we can talk about the timeframe as well and so forth on how long the process takes. So a lot of people, like I say, there's people that say that will run around and say, oh, you can put up a loophouse, a vegetable loophouse, and you can put two by four poles and a shade net and you're ready to go. But that's not the fact. Securities get scrutinized. You've got to have access control. You've got to have anti-climbing fencing 2.4 meters high. You've got to have cameras. You've got to have biometrics on the doors. Secure is a big aspect of it. Just because of the nativeness of cannabis. We're dealing with a formal sector here and it falls under the health sector and it's about the compliance with the regulations. It's scheduled drug stall as it stands today. The regulations hasn't changed on cannabis. So all those things you've got to comply with. So if people try to cut corners so that it doesn't work, they fail. So you've got to put faith in SAPRA as well and in the licensing process. I know there's a lot of people that's against the licensing process but it also gives a lot of faith in the process that there is actually a national health regulatory authority that's backing the process on product development and that because it doesn't just cultivation. If the first person that has to die from a cannabis related take bad business is bad for the whole industry. It has to be regulated. It can't be a backyard mechanic situation where everybody can just make medicine and run it out to the market. It's got to be regulated. It's got to be registered. So I don't have any problem with the process. I put my faith in the process to regulate it for us and we just comply with that process. Our time frame's best scenario is we do a service level agreement for three months where we help you select a site. We introduce the third party contractors. We build the process. We put up the greenhouses. We do all the paperwork and application and we hand it in and we queue for the license. Normally the bolt out would be a six to eight month process and then after the application is in, you get queued for an inspection date. That's your DBA. On that day, everything has got to be in place. So like I say, it's risky. It's a big risk to lay out the capital and not knowing if you're going to get a license or not. But you also, I can sit here and say directly to you that I've never failed in getting a license because we're familiar with the process and we work very closely in the process as well. We know what we're doing. So yeah, we're a professional outfit. Yeah, good enough. This sounds so exciting and very, very technical as well. Also, it sounds like there's so much high barriers to entry. It reminds me of intensive vegetable farmers and the things that they have to go through via global gap and exporting documents, et cetera. Talking about licenses and what you've just explained right now in the past two minutes. Are we on par within South Africa from a global perspective with our license? For example, what I'm trying to ask is that, you know, supper is the one that is creating these regulations. Also guiding farmers that if you're producing on a commercial level, you have to have a specific license and you need to pass that. So now once I've passed this, I've put up my infrastructure as a farmer and now I want to trade globally. I want to export from a global perspective. Is our license on par with global standards? Yes, that's a very good question. So if you start to look at GMP and GAP and GACP and so forth, so we built according to... GAP for me is good agricultural practices where it's in the field, it's in the greenhouse, it's what you apply to your plants and the cultivation itself. GACP is more good agricultural collection practices. So how are you harvesting? How are you tracking? How are you consolidating into a batch number? How are you testing? How are you storing? How are you drying? And so forth. And then after that you're only getting GMP. So a lot of people get misguided on the GMP side because GMP is good manufacturing processes. So only once you start processing, everything I've mentioned so far is primary processing with all the cultivation. This is a good part of the industry as well because we're trying to pair now agricultural sector cultivation with the medical sector that's very medicinal oriented and very clean and very strenuous and very regulated. So it's a difficult part. Where do you stop with GACP and where does GMP start? So that clarification is busy getting formulated and we are allowed to export and we have exported. I was involved with exports out of Lesotho to Canada. I was involved with exports out of South Africa to Switzerland. So the first exports out of Lesotho, we helped with the first exports out of South Africa. We helped with and we managed those sites. And yeah, so very possible and very on standard. I mean the GMP, if you look at GMP accreditation, we can get GMP accreditation in South Africa. It's a SAPRA GMP. Does that hold up with a EU GMP? No, it's not the same standard. It's a EU GMP. Like everybody knows Germany is one of the hardest countries to actually get into and get product into. So when it comes to quality assurance and quality checks and that, it's very much up to the company itself to lead that aspect and have the professionalism and the right technicians in place to give that quality assurance and that quality. And also to pair yourself with good tracking and be clear and transparent to SAPRA about it. So it's got to be a two-way street on communication. Right. We have a comment here, Cornel, from JB and they're saying there's so much blur information out there. So it's really great to hear this information from you, Cornel. And which is a great comment because it's nice to know that, you know, it brings so much comfort speaking to someone who's very experienced in the sector. And I know you all, you are focused on a commercial or a business scale with regards to cannabis production. But as a regulatory body and as an industry, how do you then manage what people are growing in a commercial form that has a license versus what people are growing in their own individual households? Because I think the law in South Africa is that you can grow cannabis or consume cannabis but within your own, you know, private space. So how does one, as an industry or as a body, how does one regulate the two different cannabis production, especially where health is concerned? Sure. So like I say as well, like I'm sitting here, I have background of working with communities and community upliftment and I am a raster as well. So the dreadlocks here at the back speaks for itself. So I'm not against the people growing small scale or growing for themselves at home. There's nothing wrong with that. And I suggest to everybody to be growing cannabis. It's a connection that you have with plant and I've got a deep connection with it. It's a spiritual plant and it helps you in many aspects in your life. To tell you the truth, when it's an unregulated environment, like it's somebody growing just at home, it seats that's purchased locally. That's locally been bred or that's been through generations passed on. I mean, we in Africa have a history of thousands of years of growing cannabis. You don't have to teach the people how to grow cannabis but it's not the same thing. Growing three plants or 300 plants is not the same than growing 30,000 to 110,000 per hectare on a commercial scale. It's a completely different ball game and that's where the misinformation comes in as well because there's a lot of consultants running out there and everybody, you kick over rock now and master grow pops up. It's like a dime a dozen. So it's that scenario. Everybody is making out like the experts in the industry and I'm not blowing my own horn or sitting over a chip on my shoulder but it's been hard work for the last 30 years to be where I am. It comes with respect and knowledge. You learn through hard knocks, farmers will tell you that as well. It's not easy to farm. Anybody that says it's easy to farm and it's very similar to citrus just like you suggested as well. So moving on from home scale, growing or personal, used to a commercial scale, you got to track everything. We bring in, like I said, I mentioned to you we get a genetic supplier agreement and we bring in the genetics that's registered with the International Seed Bank. It comes in with a phytosanitary certificate into the country and it's declared at customs that it came in. So it's inspected that you're not bringing any microbials or fungos or anything into the country. So that's where it starts. Then you're multiplying that genetics through cloning or through tissue filtering to get a homogeneous crop. The big part of this industry is to have a constant, large volume, clean, high end product supply. It's similar to the citrus. Our top grade citrus gets exported. We don't see it on our shelves. We see the choice grade. That's on checkers and pick and pay. It's very similar to cannabis. That top end market is not young. It's a market that's international for medicinal purposes and that's where the money lies as well. So for me, I want everybody to grow. It's going to open up. There'll be hemp permits that's being issued as well. I know there's a bill that's at Parliament right now. It's getting ready to be passed. We hope for the near future that there'll be cannabis clubs and cannabis dispensaries and it's open and that's the local market. So that's the local production. That's not my field. Like I pointed out to you, I deal on the larger scale production for export specifically. But yes, I hope that answers your question. So it's genetics. It's phytosanitaries. It's traceability. Straight back to the source. Barcodes on every single plant with scanners on the software. If regulatory authority or even security walks in, you can give them a scanner gun and it doesn't matter if it's a plant or a cutting or product in the fridge. If they scan that barcode, it'll be clear transparent the history of it. When it was planted, where it came from and where it's going, when it'll be harvested. So everything is tagged. Awesome. I want to get to one question and then I'll move on to a guest's question here. I think we've covered it earlier on but we'll just repeat it for his sake because he didn't apologise for draining late. I just want to find out, speaking about multinationals or global companies, how do farmers then, are farmers able to compete in a fair standard or in a fair practice with multinationals who also want to invest in cannabis farming? Because in the beginning of our conversation you mentioned that cannabis farming is such a huge buzzword in South Africa. Everybody wants to farm it. It's a green gold. Farmers are investing in cannabis farming, diversifying into cannabis farming. And also you mentioned mines and pharmaceuticals are also diverting to cannabis farming. So does that create fair competition within the South African landscape where farmers don't have deep pockets and resources like global or big corporates would have? So from exporting levels and also just regulating the industry, is it a fair field where farmers can compete equally with multinationals? Yes, I would say it is. For me, yes, there's a big barrier to entry and it's the deep pockets, it's the corporates that lead the industry. But at the end of the day, like I said, I've been in many areas internationally where this has taken place and at the beginning, it's everybody jumping on the bandwagon. Like I say, it's farmer, it's the brewery, it's the mining industry and so forth. But three to five years into the industry, it stabilizes. We're two years in now since first licenses have been issued in South Africa. So we're still sitting on the snake's head if I can put it that way where everybody is jumping on a bandwagon and at the end of the day, it's an overinflated situation where the bubble bursts and the guys that really know what they're doing, they'll be 10 to maybe 15 larger scale producers that controls that area of production that I wouldn't say monopolizes, but that controls that. It's the same with the citrus industry, like you have lots of many small scale farmers that produces for a packer maybe and that ties in with the shipping aspect of it as well. So when you see yourself in the industry, a lot of people, there's so much scope in this industry. I cannot start to tell you that cannabis touches every single industry that you can name. So it's so diverse. You talk about the mining industry. Back in the gold rush, it was not the guys getting into gold mining and made so much money. It's the guys supplying all the axes and the picks and the sifts and that. So the supply chain for the cannabis industry is a big part of it as well. I mentioned earlier the spend series as well. So that's all coming. So there's many add ons and filtration off from cannabis that's going to happen in South Africa. It's literally a green rush. So even if somebody controls or has a monopoly over that part of the industry, it's not the whole value chain of the industry. Products on the shelves, local products, logos, it's all going to happen. We're going to start seeing a lot of brands popping up on our local market and for international export as well. So when it comes to product formulation and product development and all of that, you can imagine about what I'm doing and I can go on about it forever as well. But for me, it's a massive industry that's here to stay. I would like to see a bigger conventional banking and so forth opening up for the sector as well. So the farmers are not struggling to have that big barrier to entry on the capital, maybe land bank open up to all the farmers. I would like to put that out there to help fund them on it and mitigate that risk of insurance on the crops. We've got to look at all these things in the future. We don't have it in place yet. I mean, it's coming. I'm glad you mentioned the topic about finance because we've got a question here from Bongani master Terence. He says, sorry I'm late, but did you cover the cannabis license costs for a startup? And I believe you did. You said about the license is about 23,000. Oh, sorry, is that correct? Correct, 23,900,800. Last time I checked with SAPRA, but that's only for your license application to go in. That doesn't mean you get a license. The compliance is the big part of it. Like I mentioned, that's the hard part of it. I'm not going to lie to you. You're talking big boxes. It's, yeah, people out there, there's all kinds of figures out there. I honestly, 35 million rent for me touches the bottom end of production. And you're not talking big scale production. You're talking about half a hectare of production because of the high tech greenhouse that we put up. But it gives you the capability to grow all year round. It doesn't matter what happens on the outside. So we control the whole environment. Conventionally, it would be planting in spring where we're sitting down September and you'll be harvesting end of March, April. That's one crop for the year. But you open to contamination and to spray and to cross pollination and a lot of headaches, a lot of heartaches that comes with farming where in a greenhouse situation and controlled environment, you don't. You're controlling the photosensitivity on the light cycles. You're cutting the light cycles out. You're controlling the humidity. You're controlling the fertilization, irrigation and everything that goes with it. So in that, we're dictating to the plants when to flower and how to flower. And by super cropping and so forth, we are being production as well. We're not growing massive plants. You're growing smaller plants in smaller cycles. So we do 67 harvest a year compared to one harvest conventionally. So yes, you're spending the big bucks and the capex and there's that massive barrier to entry. But your production is up and your consistency is there and your quality as well because of the environment you're in. Yeah. I think we might have to have you back on now just to talk about the technicalities around production because I'm hearing 35 million just only for half a hectare. Wow. Like, I mean, what could I do with just 35 million? There's so many farms I could build, you know. And yet we're just talking about a half a hectare. So it sounds quite expensive, not sounds. It is very expensive. And then you must still go through all the loopholes or sorry, the high barriers to entry from a licensing perspective. But going back to licensing, how often does one have to keep up with a license? You know, do you get a license early or does it last for five years, et cetera? Maybe just explain how, you know, for how long do you have the certificate for to trade? Sure. The upkeep is a five year period, but there's some unannounced inspections that it's conducted as well. So it's not just the upkeep on a license fee or that it's to comply, to comply with the regulatory authorities and they can walk onto your site any day. And like I say, you got to be clear and transparent on every single little leaf on site. So we track everything. When we de-stalk, we track the stalks. When we de-leaf, we track the leaves. When we take moisture content out, when we de-humidify, we weigh wet weight. We weigh dry weight. Everything gets tracked because nothing, they don't want anything to end up on the black market. It's licensed and it's regulated. You know, so that's a big aspect of it. So if you hear about all the tracking and the weighing and the dehumidification and so forth, all this equipment is costly. So that $35 million goes towards, it's not like you think just buying a farm or that it's actually to set up the building to control the environment, to have to access control on it and all the equipment that goes with it and the capability and the salaries and so forth. So yeah, we do a proper finance module as well in our consortium. So yeah, I'm the practical guy and I look like this, but we have COO's and that runs proper finance modules and that and predictions for our clients as well. Wow, got enough on the bat. It has been such an awesome conversation that we've had this evening and hopefully you could join us again where we just unpack other topics around cannabis farming because it seems like, you know, we have a lot of engagement and a lot of interest from our audience regarding this and unfortunately we can't take all the questions because now we've run out of time and we just also don't want to take too much of your time this evening. But just as a final question in closing, is such an investment in cannabis farming justifiable when we need to farm food because people are growing hungry? Is it justifiable from an expense or capital outlay when we could be spending that money in growing more grains, more foods and giving access to these healthy foods to low income households? I hear your question and I'm going to answer in two thoughts. Firstly, cannabis is a health supplement and it's necessary as well. It's maybe bad to say but COVID the cannabis industry good in a way because there's a bigger demand than there's ever been for cannabis. We saw that it's an essential product needed by people to alleviate, alleviate circumstances and pain and depression and stress and so forth as well. We saw that across the globe. For me it's not just about food it's about having people's mental health just as good as their body health as well and cannabis plays a big role in that and for the local market to open up for local production and to have a fair access for local people to it and not just that massive high end product that's sitting on the shelves and high retail internationally is very important as well. So we definitely going to have that way there is smaller communities and co-ops and I've seen some of your previous podcasts about co-ops as well. I loved it where communities work together and they take it to a central hub I would suggest for the future where we have central processing stations and it doesn't matter how people bring it there if it's on a donkey or on a wheelbarrow or on a bucky or on a buck it gets created like everything else gets created and it falls into a category is it for local consumption is it for the export market and that feeds back to the people so my second thing I'm going to say to you is that you must remember that cannabis touches everybody's life so have you ever heard of an industry that we can create jobs that are badly needed in this country? Give investment opportunity for foreigners that brings capital to our shores everybody is here the Israelis are here the Americans are here the Germans are here everybody is here to grow cannabis in our country so we're bringing capital or investment opportunities to the country and then we're helping people that badly needs it as a health supplement to have access to it at a fair price locally and then we're exporting we're bringing forex back to the country I mean we're talking a magical industry I don't know too many industries that touches all of that Thank you so much for your time this evening Gornel and yeah it's been fantastic chatting to you and it's great to know that there's individuals like yourself locally that are so experienced in cannabis farming a topic that we still need to explore quite extensively and I like so many I like the various opportunities that you've mentioned about creating investment for cannabis farming more technical expertise for cannabis farming looking at the various ways around licensing and how can you create communities around cannabis farming and also discussing the importance of what cannabis can do for you from a health perspective so thank you so much for your insights this evening I thoroughly enjoyed our chat and yeah I wish you a great weekend and a good Friday ahead Thank you Mubali likewise it's been a pleasure Absolutely we were just speaking to Gornel if you missed our conversation this evening please go straight on to YouTube and watch this Farming Podcast Episode 89 where we discuss licensing around cannabis farming in South Africa Gornel comes with a wealth of information and I'm sure you just don't want to miss this hopefully we could get back onto the Farming Podcast to discuss other elements and aspects around cannabis farming so that you at home are informed on the benefits the pros and cons why you should farm it from your own private space or from a commercial space and what type of investment you're looking at when starting cannabis farming and the type of support that exists in South Africa right here locally I think the key benefit here is that he said that cannabis could be grown anyway but a lot of time and patience is needed to understand how the production cycle works having a technical expert like Gornel to assist you in setting up a cannabis farm he is the CEO of White Lion Holdings and what I heard is that he also provides consulting services on how to start a commercial cannabis production we will leave these details on the Farming Podcast in the specific episode so reach out to him if you have any further questions and look out for all our social media platforms when we would have Gornel back onto the show hopefully he agrees but thank you so much for watching and supporting that episode this evening thank you to JB to Balani and all the others that have asked questions and unfortunately we couldn't answer all of them tonight because of this limited time frame that we're working under but this is it for me have a fantastic Friday and a great weekend ahead and I will see you next Tuesday with another awesome guest at APM take care