 And welcome to another episode of Pacific Partnerships in Education here on Think Tech Hawaii. I'm your host, Ethan Allen. Joining me in the Think Tech studio today is Shanti Asher. Welcome, Shanti. Thank you. And we're going to be talking about some issues in education near and dear to Shanti's heart. This is sort of a follow-up show of what we did two weeks ago. I had Dr. Jojo Peter on, a regular guest on the show. And we were talking about the issues around chuk moves or the discussions about chuk separating from FSM. And Jojo brought up a lot of very complex legal issues that this has on what status would this leave people who are chuky citizens in the US, blah, blah, blah, what does this do to the compacts of free association. And it occurred to me that because you are a recent graduate of Thomas Jefferson Law School, I believe, in San Diego. And so this would be great to talk about some more deeply into the legal issues here. But let me just say, what inspired you to become an attorney here? Well, so it's always been a childhood dream, you know, like you always get up in first grade or fifth grade and you say what you answer, what you want it to be when you grow up. So that was always a dream of mine. But then as I started to grow up, I noticed that it's actually something very difficult financially, given that we're from the islands and there's not really a lot of resources. But when I pursued my post, when I went to Shamanat, I'm actually a Shamanat alum. I went there for, I left right after I graduated from high school and pursued my secondary education there with my first, I guess for that was my foundation to go towards that goal. And so I graduated with my BA in pre-law. And then I got married after that, stayed, remained here in Hawaii. And then about two, three years later, I went for my master's in criminal justice administration. So I got that. But the reason why I was, I'm telling you all this is when, while I still kept that in the back of my head that I still wanted to go to law school, living here in Hawaii, I started noticing that I have to go back and give back because I was on scholarship when I was here. So my family and I moved back home. And I think it was really the core. It was really what inspired me to not give up and come back and pursue law school. And I think Jojo, Dr. Peter Siebel is talking about it in your last segments. But it's, I, being in FSM, I saw the great need for local attorneys because most of our legal advices or opinions are provided by people that, you know, came and worked in the FSM, mostly foreigners. And while we really appreciated the work that they provide for us, there's always that gap of, you know, growing up and understanding our cultural differences and in applying that when you provide legal opinions. So I watched that, I observed it, and I cannot stand idle and not do something about it. So it really, when I was there, seeing all this happening, unfolding, I, it took me about four years to be in the process of, you know, applying to law school or even taking the law school admission test. So it was, I think it was, it started as a childhood dream. And then later on it became, I became really motivated to do it for my people because who's going to better assist than someone who is a sister, a daughter of the country. So, yeah. Exactly. And the issues that are very complex because there was essentially the Chukis people who were living there had dealt with ways of organizing disputes and settling disputes and laws of nature, but it was not written down, right? Yes, yes. And they've had a legal system sort of impose on them that, as you point out, was sort of written rather haphazardly, right, by two or three or four sort of random judges who happened to be there who sort of helped craft a constitution and laws, but it's not really well backed up by case law and precedent and all that kind of stuff, right? So what are the big challenges facing, facing people now? There are so many. You don't want to cover a few of them. Yes. Since we are a developing country, there are a lot of pressing issues right now. With the Chukse Session, that's another thing on the plates of a lot of the officials back home, then there is that issue, the cross-cutting issue of climate change, which is becoming, it has gotten to international stage, and like we always say that our islands are sinking. It's actually not sinking, the water is rising, so that is one. I think some of the legal issues too are a lot, now that we've become parties to a lot of international conventions, so our compliance and obligations are also pressing because a lot of these matters deal with human rights. Human rights issues, we have gender equality, and being parties to these conventions actually requires us to be in compliance. And then we have the compact, nearing the economic sector of the compact is nearing in 2023. But with all of this in place, I think now that I'm, hopefully I will go back and work in the legal, in our legal system, I believe that being, and we're still in our infant stage of growing and developing, most of the need is really personally. It is within what we're facing now and how we are going to deal with it, with the laws that we have. And there's a lot of things that I believe, comparing to the constitution of the U.S., the codes, the statutes, there are a lot of components that are missing. And now that this is session is now on the table, it goes back to, does the constitution allow for that? But that's for the legal teams of FSM to address. But with reading the constitution and all the gray areas, there's a lot of gray areas right now, it's very difficult, it's very complex. So those are some of the legal matters that I believe while there are a lot. I think those are what I think may be on the table right now, mostly compact, climate change, human rights. So yeah, those are. And the other one that sometimes pops up in our education world is the issue of land ownership, right? That there was traditional divisions and traditional land ownership, which got all disrupted during the Japanese occupation. And now it's a little unclear as to who owns what lands, and so you can't get clear title to lands, and that makes building new schools very difficult. Yeah, that's, I think land ownership and rights has always been an issue given, you know, who has legal title. And because I think traditionally families know who has rights in something. But then if the laws jump in and try to dictate or interpret differently, then there's always problems. And I think it's not only, it's not specific to Chuk alone. All the other islands have that issue. And like those are the gaps that I was addressing earlier in our legal system are those that I guess there has to be presidents that are now being said eventually when cases are being brought to, you know, to the courts. Right. It's a very complex system, as you say, across the FSM, because you have in most of these places traditional governance, traditional sort of clan-based leadership right, certain clans owned or had rights to certain parts of the land, and could more or less control that land and control the use of that land, and then overlaid upon top of this now is a sort of, are these Western style governments that aren't always lined up with that, right? The same traditional leaders are not always in charge of the governmental sector, and the governmental people aren't always the traditional leaders, and therefore there are these sometimes sectors working at odds. They overlap, they clash, but I think that's one of the things that has to be dealt with as far as like when we were flagging that it's really important and vital for locals to pursue legal education so that when they go back, it's really easy for them to apply it when they try to maybe amend the laws, what's already in place, because when they were drafted way back, all these issues are just emerging, so it's just like any constitution, any legal system, there are amendments that are done, and for land, when you raise that one, there's also that issue with dual citizenship because there are some questions that are being challenged with the system, whether, because FSM citizens cannot have dual citizenship, there are kids that are born into a family in the U.S., and then with that, they're being stripped of title because they can't be U.S. citizen, they have to choose, so there are not only complexities with those living there, there are also emerging issues as to kids that are born in the U.S. who are natural by birth, they are U.S. citizens, but then when they go back to their homes, do the lands transfer over to them or not? So it's all those other matters. All this just really screams out, I hate to say this, but you really need more attorneys, right? Yes. And you need what you need is Native Chukis, Pompeian, Koschian, Japanese attorneys, you need people who understand, who grew up there, who know what the customs are, know what the traditions are, and can help bring some of these aspects into the 21st century in line with a good, robust legal framework, right? I think with all this, with all these going on, there's always, you have to strike a balance. Right. Yes, so that we don't lose our customs, we don't lose our traditions while we try to move forward with also ensuring that we have compliance, you know? Right. Sure. I mean, like it or not, we are all living in the 21st century, right? Yes. So you may wish to make an option for Chukis or Japanese citizens to pursue very traditional means of livelihood, and that's wonderful to maintain a culture and a tradition. But at the same time, yes, as you say, your FSM is party to international agreements and conventions and signature to international treaties and all, and has to sort of stay on top of that, has to be doing what needs to be done there. You're not immune from the issues and challenges, right? I mean, the whole thing with the South China Sea these days, right? Yes. And China trying to assert their more dominance in that region. That impacts shipping, it impacts trade, it impacts economies, right? And so, yeah, how FSM deals with China is a whole, I'm sure there's a whole raft of legal issues in that. Yes. And of course, that's complicated because the U.S. Douglas has their, what should we say, their desires on how FSM should deal with China, right? Yeah, with our special relationship with the U.S., there are provisions that we also need to comply with. Yeah. And it's in a lot of different areas. And with us touching on trade, trade falls right into one of the brackets that has to be complied with. Absolutely. So, yeah. This is great. And we're going to dig more deeply into this when we come back. Shanti Asher is here, a newly minted legal line. And I'm Ethan Allen, your host of Pacific Partnerships in Education. And we'll be back after a brief break. See you there. Hello, and welcome to Out of the Comfort Zone. I am your villainous host, RB Kelly. Today we are playing Two Truths and a Lie. And I will tell you, Two Truths, and you will tell me which one is the lie. Truth number one, this is a real mustache. Truth number two, I want you to watch my show on Tuesdays at 1 p.m. So tune in and let me know which is the truth and which is the lie. I'm RB Kelly with Out of the Comfort Zone and show up next Tuesday to see my mustache live. Aloha. My name is Mark Shklav. I am the host of Think Tech Hawaii's Law Across the Sea. Law Across the Sea is on Think Tech Hawaii. Every other Monday at 11 a.m. Please join me where my guests talk about law topics and ideas and music and Hawaiiana all across the sea from Hawaii and back again. Aloha. Welcome back to Pacific Partnerships in Education. I'm your host, Ethan Allen. With me today here in the Think Tech Studios is Shanti Asher. Welcome again, Shanti. We were having in the first half of the show a great dialogue about some of the issues with legal, the need for more legal talent in Micronesia because of the complex situations and all. But I want to step back because when we started we talked a little bit about how you got interested in law and have pursued a legal degree and legal career. But that was pretty coming from a small island state. You've had extra challenges in pursuing that dream. Can you maybe elaborate on that a little bit here? Yes, of course. So being that I'm from Kutchai or DFSM there are challenges especially for women or girls to go further into pursuing their education and I remember when I was almost graduating from high school and sharing my aspirations about leaving the island to pursue my education it's it's always been a sensitive issue you know whether my parents will let me go is it safe and you know because we're from smaller islands but I have to say that I really commend my parents because they it was really I think the first resource that I had through them was having trust in me that I can go and continue fighting for what I wanted in my life and that was really they opened that door and for a lot of other students I felt that there is always that resistance there's parents are not it's not easy for them to let go for girls especially right they're very strong family ties and we in I know from working with apparel there we've had very promising students who were sort of offered further education here in Hawaii or in Guam or in the mainland who basically said I can't do it you know I have to stay home and take care of my nieces and nephews yes and it's a strong family obligation very strong sense of community there it's you need your parents are to be commended for having encouraged you and supported you in in doing that thoughts yeah and it was more challenging because I'm the oldest of seven so it it is whether to let me go for pursue my education or stay back and help them but because they saw the potential and I've had scholarships that were offered they couldn't they will be at peace if they let me pursue my dreams and that's exactly what I did but when fast forward when I wanted to pursue my go back to law school I started searching for options and I think it's really the resources that were made available or lack of availability that I felt was another challenge also it's I think now that we've evolved into gender equality there's more it's more of a topic that's not so much sensitive anymore to in today's society I felt that I had to pull in extra work just to prove that I'm able you know and at the work that I was working for foreign affairs I it was a really great opportunity while it was challenging given that I at the time the position I had was only it was a deputy assistant secretary and I over oversee the Pacific region so most matters that are Pacific related comes through my desk to my desk and I think like trying to prove my prove others of my capabilities was one challenge and then when I moved over to look into law schools I realized that the resources that we have available for students who wanted to pursue that Avenue is very maybe it's there but the data is not available readily available so I had to while I was not the first FSM student that graduated from U.S. law schools there were a number before me good number a few the information was not available and I'm not really sure if it's just because of the lack of ensuring that we collect those data and put it into one place it's it I realized that that's been an issue across the board it's just data management collection of data and I think that if we have more of that it will probably make it easier for other students right yeah indeed if you if you had known half a dozen other students who were a few years ahead of you who could have helped answer questions are reassured you want things get tough and you can push on through you can you can do this right that would have been helpful and yes it it seems like somebody somewhere ought to be gathering that data making sure that any aspiring students have this list of your contacts here's where they currently are here's the post they currently hold go talk to them you know see what kind of support they can offer that would just seem very part and parcel of a good bootstrapping because so how many I mean how many coach Ryan's attorneys are there on the ballpark as far as I know I believe there's there are two from lost us law schools okay as you may be aware there are a good number of FSM students that pursue their legal interest but through USP so they went to Vanya Watt to pursue their legal studies the reason why I chose to continue on with US schools is because of my background is mostly us and because our Constitution is is very is mirroring the US Constitution so it makes sense to go to a system an institution that will discuss very relatable concepts to our Constitution and that's why I pursued law schools in the US but as for other attorneys that are from Khrushchei I think there are other maybe a few that graduated from Vanya Watt to and are also practicing law I'm here you're talking literally a handful of attorneys out of population of of maybe 10,000 or less yes it's a the ratio is so radically different from what is in the US but all that again speaks to this need for sort of this bootstrapping process to bring more students on in so what what is it that you think can be done what is it should be done to to sort of fostered a legal workforce as it were so I'll put I'll make my comments to what I wished were there when I was searching it would be nice to have a list of options to prepare for the law school admission test because you can't get into law school without that so if we have some notes or a book that is a booklet for every aspiring law students to go through so step one is law school admission test if you wish to prepare yourself these are all the vendors that provide such options and then the next thing is taking the LSAT so LSAT is the law school admission test which is not administered it's what I was told was they FSM can't administer it however there is a really a good amount of fee that you have to pay for them to administer it so when I did mines I had to take my personal leave to fly to Illinois champagne Illinois to sit for a prep course for one month and then immediately after that course I said for the LSAT so like that distance may not be necessary at there been information available for me to read through but because those were what I could find at the moment my my options were limited because I was working and I was doing it out of my own time so I couldn't exceed one month and one month is what I I could have come to UH because they offer it but it's a program for three months so I couldn't UH was already out of the picture but these are options that we can have in a binder or something so that they have a list of choices that they can choose from and then after that you take the LSAT you go back and you wait and then you choose your law school but if you have a roadmap I think it would not it's already it's already scary for someone to consider a small islander from a very tiny island to consider going to law school so that's already scary now but then when you keep going you know jumping through all this maybe you're gonna get tired and and just not having enough energy to go to law school but yeah those are what I thought like basic foundation information that would really help a student right and in this day and age particularly that should be that information should be available right it should be easy to sort of gather it and put it all in some place on some web site as you say in handouts you could you could spread around to the schools so that high school students would know hey this is an option I could actually go and do this I wanted and kids at the at the local college there because you've got a college Micronesia branch coach right yeah again they should be sort of loaded up and ready to support students right so yeah they give some yeah if you're doing this all essentially out of road map it sounds like and that's making it making it doubly hard on yourself yes and I've made notes along the way so that I can work with whatever department Department of Justice Department maybe COM FSM and also the courts to make sure that these information are since they're still fresh in my head it's good to have them available and then we're just also on the side ready and willing to help other students absolutely well this sounds like something you can you can contribute to the furthering you know this aspect of your dream that is make it easier and more supportive as an atmosphere for others to do this is this is really great I so much appreciate you coming by here and telling us about this is a whole social issue that we didn't know about the various issues you've had to confront being given the sort of traditional gender-based differences you've had to deal with that the distance the isolation yeah the lack of road map so it's fascinating to hear this and I'm so I'm proud of you for having done that and yay on your parents too for a sporting unit maybe we'll get you back here at some of the point we can we can go into some more depth but right now we've run out of time thank you so much shawty it's been a pleasure having you here oh thank you it's indeed and we'll see you on the next episode of Pacific partnerships and education till then