 From our studios, in the heart of Silicon Valley, Palo Alto, California, this is a CUBE Conversation. Hello everyone, welcome to this special CUBE Conversation here in Palo Alto, California. I'm John Furrier, co-host of theCUBE. We have two special expert guests here, talking multi-cloud, Jonathan King, Vice President of Strategy, Data Center and Cloud for WWT and Fabio Gori, Senior Director of Cloud, Solutions Marketing at Cisco. Multi-Cloud is the topic. Guys are in the throws of it. Jonathan, you're in the front wave of a massive shift. Cisco powers networks for all companies these days. So guys, multi-cloud is a reality. It's here. I want to get your thoughts on that, have a conversation. Thanks for joining us. Great, glad to be here. So multi-cloud has not really been debated. I mean, people generally now step back and say, multi-cloud is a reality. It's here, people have multiple clouds, certainly have data center on-premise. But this idea of multi-cloud and hybrid cloud are somewhat getting mixed up. But multi-cloud certainly is more realistic in the reality sense than anything else. What's your take on multi-cloud, Jonathan? So I think we're at a point where there's a growing acceptance of multi-cloud as the architecture of the future. And when you arrive at that point, it also means that multi-cloud is the architecture for today. Because if you see your competitors, you see new entrants in your space moving in a rapid digital pace to meet their business needs and you're not on the same kind of architecture of the same footing, then you're going to be left behind. So you used to debate private cloud, hybrid cloud, multi-cloud. The way we see it is that we're in this multi-cloud world and multi-cloud embraces an end-to-end imperative. How am I getting my apps and my development teams building those apps closer to my business and meeting my needs more rapidly? And then how am I connecting my entire business, my data, my network, all of it to meet that needs? So multi-cloud architecture is really an imperative. It doesn't mean it's the only thing. There's other elements in terms of having a clear digital strategy, thinking about how you're going to modernize your infrastructure, of course thinking about how you're transforming your security. All four of those elements really comprise a enterprise architecture, multi-cloud being a core part of it. Fabio, Cisco, you guys have seen the ways of innovation, internet, connecting companies together through networking, et cetera. Multi-cloud's a big part of your focus, certainly at Cisco Live, we've covered that. What's the definition of multi-cloud now? Because I've heard, it's been debunked, but I've heard people say, oh, multi-cloud's an application workload moving across multiple clouds. Some say, no, it just means I have two clouds. So what is the definition? Baseline, that's here. So it's interesting because you can go on Wikipedia and actually read the definition of multi-cloud. But what I'm really interested in is exactly what Jonathan was saying a moment ago. This is one of those rare cases where what you hear architecture is actually the technology architecture and the business architecture really coincide. People want to use innovation wherever it comes from. And because you can't allow yourself to be just restricted, your choice, people want to have choice, multiple choices. That's why we're seeing adoption of multiple cloud services, multiple SaaS solution, infrastructure service solutions, and the likes. So this is really what multi-cloud means, is satisfying a business need. And while cloud computing was born, as we know around 10 years ago, and it probably started with a kind of cost connotation, the speed and agility that you can get out of it now overwhelm the other parameters. And people are ready to spend anything it takes to become faster than their competitor because that ultimately will really determine your destiny in the marketplace. And I want to drill into the tech side and have some specific point of question. I'd love to ask you, Jonathan. First, talk about the relationship that WWT Worldwide Technology has with Cisco and your credibility in multi-cloud. You guys have a unique view. First of all, you work with Cisco, their partner, you guys partner together, big part of your business. But you guys are in the middle of a lot of the action. Talk about the company, what kind of deals you guys are doing, what visibility do you guys have into the landscape. Give an example of some of the work that you guys do and then talk about the relationship with Cisco. Yeah, so Cisco is a very strategic partner of ours. They have been for a long time. And we have the benefit of being at scale with Cisco for repeatable waves of technology rollouts in repeatable domains of technology. So customers come to us and look for our help as a trusted advisor to help them with their architectural decisions and to help them often with knowledge gaps. Architecture is a challenge, especially when you're dealing with rapid change. So you have a pace of change externally. You cover the space. I mean, every day, right? I mean, we were sitting here, there's some kind of news thing going on. And that change, I mean, even companies who know what they're doing and have deep benches of talent have architectural challenges. But you take it to an enterprise or a government agency. How are they going to keep up? Well, that's really our job and the value we bring is we are constantly watching, talking to partners, talking to customers. And, you know, there's almost no one we're doing that as closely with as we are with Cisco in terms of how we're watching trends, looking at what's happening. And from a, you know, multi-cloud standpoint, I think to answer your question there, it's a bit of a thought experiment. So if you define multi-cloud as really just, oh, it's just between Amazon, Azure, Google. Multi-cloud is just multi-public cloud. We do not see it that way. Our clients don't see it that way. Our clients see it as a bigger domain that multi-cloud includes how you're connecting to SaaS, how you're, you know, so there's multiple public clouds, a bigger definition there, but then it's also the edge, the cloud edge, the different edges that are out there are being deployed in a cloud architecture. Your core data center has a private cloud. All of that we see as multi-cloud. And when you define it that way, you start to look at it. Companies are saying, who do I turn to to help me with a multi-cloud architecture? Do I turn to someone that was born in the cloud who just really knows AWS? They know it really well, but that's what they know. Or a similar consulting company who's over here. The credibility that we have, we have those capabilities, but we also have depth and breadth and history and knowledge and contracts and relationships and the incredible ecosystem. And important with Cisco, it's not just like a one-way relationship. We have an ecosystem around us collectively that Cisco benefits because we have that ecosystem. And that's really what companies look for. It puts us in a very unique position because we see this and world. It's not an or world. And I think even the investments and movements that the public clouds have made recently, the hybrid offerings that they're bringing and where Kubernetes is going to enable portability, all these things really are about a multi-cloud world. And we're just excited about where we are. It's interesting, the first wave, Amazon, I call it the Amazon wave because they really kind of did take out the beach and public cloud. Kind of showed the way of the economics and the value creation piece. And you mentioned a few things that take, that point at this next big wave. That next big wave I see it is about people and technology. This holistic view around multiple architectures is a systems concept. So it's not unproven. And probably we've seen this movie before in systems, operating systems, you need networking, you got to connect things together. So this next wave of thinking about workloads and applications in context to an architecture seems to be the next narrative that people are starting to talk about. Versus public cloud because the people equation, who's going to run it? Who's going to service it? Who's the coders? What tools and APIs do I use? People behave certain ways and they, like their favorite cloud. So it's a whole different ball game. Your thoughts on the, what's driving all this? I would say, look, I mean, we could talk about this forever, but I think we're seeing a pretty dramatic shift into an architectural model, right? I mean, if you remember a few years ago, we had like networking specialist in the data center, storage specialist and compute specialist. Well, guess what? People moved to full stack type of expertise, right? And now we even have systems that are completely converge or hyper converge. Well, we're seeing the same movie in the cloud where we're seeing the rise of cloud architectures and enterprise architectures, which become really the terminal of the business. And these people, especially in the companies that are ahead of the game, in terms of cloud adoption and expertise, these guys are issuing the new guidance and guardrails for the entire organization, in terms of what governance model you need to take, right? And the other groups actually execute this kind of strategy. This is, you know, some people say, well, this is finally so are coming alive, right? In the SOA, service oriented architecture. That's exactly what it is. Without probably some of the, you know, kind of proprietary underpinnings or driven by certain sense to market players in the past. This is the truth. So if you think about microservices and containers, that's exactly what it is. And also we're seeing a lot of companies that are starting getting even organized by microservices, which is the ultimate demonstration that the technology architecture and the business architecture really converge. It's fairly complicated concept, but in the end it's about really connecting the business to the underlying technology. And it's a shift that's happening in front of our eyes and we're covering a lot of the news, some notable news that we've been covering lately, the department of defense, Jedi contract. That's in the public sector and military, CNCF, Amazon re-invent, Google Nexus coming out. You're starting to see the formation where it's not about the cloud vendor or the cloud supplier anymore, as much it is about the workload. So there's been a debate of soul sourcing the cloud. And that's certainly, we're seeing that on the DOD site as more military procurement thing. But that's not the right answer anymore. We're seeing that whole spread the multi-vendor love around is not so much like it used to be. It's different now, there's new architecture. So, John, I want to go back to your multi-cloud architecture because I think the strategic question that I'd like to get to is, it might not be a bad thing to pick a cloud, a sole cloud for his workload, but that's not meaning you're going to not use other clouds. This is a whole different thinking. So I can pick Amazon for this workload or pick Azure for that workload and Google for that workload and holistically connect them all together seamlessly. This is not a bad thing. Your thoughts? Yes, there's a somewhat of a paradox when you talk about multi-cloud architecture and then you talk about moments in time where it makes architectural sense to pick one cloud, right? That particular decision, there's issues around people and training and technology and time to market and API coverage. So there's all these things that you're trying to get a job done or a mission done and the amount of time that you have to achieve that job or that mission, what path am I going to choose? What engine am I going to put on the plane to get me there? Now, that doesn't mean that that's the only engine you're going to put on your fleet. It just means that that particular plane is going to have that kind of engine. And then the next time, you got another engine. You got a different kind of plane. You're thinking about how you're doing these things in waves and modules and you're trying to build your aggregate velocity because really, if you strip it all down, you know, earlier we were talking about multi-cloud and people and talent. We're in a distributed computing land rush and businesses of all sizes, government agencies, companies are trying to figure out how do we, you know, electricity came along. Now cloud has come along right over the horizon, cognifications coming along. How am I as an enterprise getting digitally ready and getting on a footing to be able to do what I need to do in that domain? And really, it's about velocity movement. So, now that doesn't, that means that that's why architecture is so important because you have to make, you want to, you know, people talk about one-way doors and two-way doors. So you want to stop and think about, am I going through a one-way door? Am I going through a two-way door? Meaning, do I have a way to come back? Do I, is this a decision that I'm going to live with if so, how long? Is this a decision I can go through and I can come back? These kinds of approaches let you, let you look across it. So an example would be networking. So networking is a foundation to every multi-cloud strategy. So you have to think, today my network in many enterprises is still a campus branch architecture. Well, traffic patterns have changed. Even if you've just done nothing, your customers have moved. Like all of a sudden, you know, we talk to customers, we work with retailers, we work with all kinds of people. And it's almost, it is like global climate change. It's like global network change. This is the scale at which the clouds have arrived, have changed the network patterns. So if you start to look at it, you're saying, well, what is a multi-cloud networking strategy? How do I need to rethink? Well, guess what? The campus, my headquarters, is no longer the hub it used to be. The hub is now at the cloud edge where all the other clouds are geographically aggregated. I need to move my network closer to that location. So we do a lot of work with Equinex in that context, right? So they have built a business around. So a rearchitecture is happening and it's being driven by value, creation, value shifting. Yes. It's moving everything around. And that's where some of the cloud networking standpoint, you look at that's a discussion where Cisco's so uniquely situated because they are the networking company. So they've been through the generations and they've been through different changes of generations. You know, Wi-Fi didn't used to be Wi-Fi. Now it is, right? It's here. And now we're in this next paradigm where cloud networking didn't used to be here. Now it is. What's the new thought process for cloud networking? Because it makes a lot of sense. You have to connect cloud, that's the networking latency, SLAs around moving things around from point A to point B, storing stuff as well. Abhi, what's the equation look like? What's changed? Your customers go in this new architecture. Well, just building on top of what Jonathan was saying before, first of all, the way that we architected networks, enterprise networks, one networks in the past, of course it's coming to an end. We need to rethink them, right? The fact that users now are gonna use an enormous amount of software as a service applications that don't sit in your data center means that constricting all the software in a single place doesn't make any more sense. But that's not just the traffic element. Think about all the intrusion detection, prevention, firewalling capabilities. Because you're moving away from that model, you need to start virtualizing also those security functions and distributing them all the way to the edge of the network. And in some cases you need to have them in the cloud as well. In fact, we believe that the best way is a fully distributed model where you have a choice whether you keep it in your data center or you put it into the cloud or even to the edge of the network. Again, you got to be ready for any kind of scenario. It's interesting how we're going to distributed computing as you said, but everything else is getting distributed as well. Your entire infrastructure needs to follow your application and data. Wherever they go. And that's actually something unprecedented that we're seeing right now. And you brought up cloud architects earlier, Jonathan, you mentioned it briefly and this comes back to some of this nuance point around cloud architecture. The procurement standards aren't driving what you buy. It's architectural workload dynamics are now telling procurement how we're buying. So the world's shifting from, oh, I'm going to buy these servers, I'm going to buy this gear, the approved vendors. When you think about architecture the way you pointed it out, it's a completely different decision-making process. So what's happening is old ways of procuring and buying and consuming technology are now shifting to sort of like a stand up a cloud with a credit card if I'm doing DevOps. But now you start thinking holistically the decision-making on what that will look like has changed. This is probably impacting the cultural people side as well. What's your thoughts on this dynamic between cloud selection, security, architecture and procurement? The example I normally give is it's changing but it's also evolving, right? Because you're dealing with patterns that are there and they're not going to go away, right? You're still, money still has to be paid, process and it has to be followed and respected. The examples that I give would be, I've run large clouds in my past, different platforms and one thing you always watch out for when you're running a cloud is capacity. How much money do I have in the bank, so to speak, right? Am I going to have a run on the bank? So if you're running that cloud, either, this is true, if you're a service provider or you have your own private cloud, you're very concerned about, you don't want to run on capacity because bad things happen, even unrecoverable bad things happen. Well in the public cloud, I'm free and clear, I no longer have the capacity management team, I don't even worry about them anymore. Because we just saw some press recently of a company that had a big overage in cloud, what used to be capacity management is now cost optimization. Because if you don't have it, you're going to have a similarly bad outcome. So it's those kinds of things, right? Like how do you go, and it's those things, right? One's a benefit, now it's a challenge. So this goes back down to the billion dollar question on the table in the industry is, how do I manage all this? I know how to connect it, Cisco could help me there, I understand multi-cloud, I totally buy into the architecture, I think this is clearly the direction. The management piece is kind of a fuzzy area. Can you guys help unpack cloud management? What are the table stakes? How should people think about it? Because you mentioned security and intrusion detection, not just moving packets around. We were talking before we came on about Kubernetes. There's all new sets of services moving up the stack inside this dynamic. I manage it all. What single plane of glass is going to do it for me? Yeah, well, yeah, it's interesting you mentioned there. We've talked a lot about almost like an East West type shift you could think of where multi-cloud is this thing that goes this way, right? Well there's an equally crazy paradigm that's happening in a very fast period of time where it's almost like a North South North shift, which is Kubernetes containers, service meshes, these architectures that are abstracting and lifting everything up. And in some ways, coming underneath as well at the same time, because now you have a return of bare metal. You have these concepts architecturally where the VM is here to stay, it ain't going anywhere. Still, the tooling around is insanely valuable, but you have now another benefit layer at a container orchestration layer where there's portability, speed, there's all these benefits that come. And you just look at the stats of how fast containers are growing as a share. You know, you're approaching a billion containers out there now. And that therein lies the challenge is that it'd be enough of a difficulty if you were saying I need to go from managing my private cloud, the stuff I have at a cloud edge location and the stuff I have in multiple public clouds. That's not all we're saying. We're saying also, you have a new tooling and a new set and it's all software defined and there's security network, there's data. It's just, it's exploding, it's complex. So the area that we're working on and want to hear more from Fabio is we're innovating with Cisco on we have great offerings and capabilities around cross cloud and VM orchestration. We're also looking now at that Kubernetes layer. Absolutely. A drill on that, the complexity you just pointed out is an opportunity at the same time because it just validates the shift that's going on. Management is an opportunity. Jonathan almost went through the entire set of needs and what you take away from this is that fundamentally you have to instrument this incredibly distributed environment, multiple sources and sourcing of this. In fact, I love the analogy that you did with the planes because there's a lot of kind of similarities to a supply chain management kind of business model, right? Where you want to supply different services. But the bottom line is that you're not moving away from what you have. It's a journey. And so this instrumentation, whether it's networking, security, analytics, management. These are actually the four pillars of our company multi cloud strategy. They need to work across the old and the new. You can't afford to build another silo and maybe leveraging a bunch of open source like. So a data plane strategy is critical. Yeah, and it has to cut across. Across the hybrid and multi cloud. East-west, north-south and across the old and the new. It sounds very complex, but in reality that. But you can build a taxonomy around this and we've seen some research come out certainly from Wikibon and others. If it fits into the architecture, that seems to be the question. So Jonathan, where does that fit in to the multi cloud architecture in your opinion? So we, you get into different terminology. We think about every company needs a cloud services strategy. So there's a taxonomy of services that we've developed where companies have to think about their application services strategy, their operation strategy, governance strategy, foundation strategy. And this is, it's sort of coming what I teased up on earlier about moving from capacity planning when you own the cloud to cost optimization when you're running the cloud, right? There's, it's the same, but different. And a lot of that difference gets down to services. I am going from a model of running my own product in an information technology modality to now I'm consuming services. So I used to architect and design and build. Now I have to architect and really understand those differences. And so that's our cloud services strategy portfolio. And what we often see is we also have a DevOps portfolio and we shorthanded you could call it cloud native, right? Where we're looking at solutions around infrastructures code, around CICD pipelines, around cloud foundation capabilities that connect back in. Are they best practices or actual implementation? So both, we have content and workshops that we've developed and then we have, we are helping clients on projects very actively. And you know, that's where we get back to that architectural gap and knowledge gap. As companies are looking for, hey, what's the pattern, what are the best practices? And then they don't expect, because there's so much, there's so many elements of change for a given company and the change in the market that there's a shelf life to this. And it's, you know, it's like fresh produce. I love your example of engine in a plane. Do you have it for a single plane or fleet of planes? Does your company have two, three big planes? I mean, it depends really. I mean, beauty's in the eye of the beholder here, right? I mean, how you build an architect cloud, there's no boilerplate. It really comes down to figuring it out. Where you are. So with that, I want to go to my final point I want to dig into on the people side. So technology shift, business shift, check. You guys did a great job there. Great insight. Comes up every time I had to go to a CUBE event and talk about cloud is the cultural people skills gap problem. One, our company doesn't have the culture or and or we don't have the skill and we don't have the people to run it. So automation certainly can help there. But at the end of the day, if you don't have the people to do this, how, because how do you solve the people problem? How are you guys helping companies? What is some of the state of the art techniques? What's out there? So I'll say a little, I appreciate Fabio's perspective too. I mean, for, I think for us, really, you know, the old saying, you know, culture, each strategy for breakfast, you know, the premise, the culture is more important than ever because really you're now moving into a mode where siloed organizations implementing siloed technology is is is enormously challenging. You have to move. And that's where DevOps and other patterns come in where the people who build the app are doing the operations. Storage and networking and compute and apps and the business, they're all talking to each other. So culture really is foundational so that a culture where you're not in making boundaries that are more rigid, you have to get to a point. And there's different ways to do this. I always recommend, if people haven't already read the Phoenix Project, it's, you know, hard to believe it's an excellent book and it's a fictional work about tech. You know, it's like a novel about tech if you've come up with it. I haven't read it yet, I'm going to get that. It's awesome. And it really gets you in the mindset of an organization going through change with an app. And it really, I mean, I'm a geek so I like it, but others, I've had other non-geeks read it and they like it. But that's the key is it's a... So you really got to set the table and invest in the culture, making sure it's appropriately aligned. Culture is foundational. And then there's other best practices that always apply, right? So what is your business vision? What is your mission? What are your values? What are the objectives you're trying to achieve in a space and time relationship? How are you prioritizing? These are all things because then if you have the right build around all that, then what you drive to is an outcome at a certain point in time and time's critical. Like, we're in a market that's competing on time. So if you are not hyper aware of time and what you're doing in a set point of time in the trade-offs and making changes if your assumptions are wrong, these are all things that are foundational. I want to get your thoughts. Chuck Robbins talks about solving the tech problems. Cisco's a tech company. You can solve tech problems all day long. He's also behind the people, skills I've heard him publicly talk about it. But you guys at Cisco have actually had a great transformation with the DevNet, DevNet create community where you harness the culture and everyone's engaged around cloud, cloud native and you have kind of a cloud DNA developing out of the core network. Your thoughts and Cisco's views on culture and people solving the problem because we need an army of cloud architects out there. It's not a native people. So that's true, but we carry an enormous responsibility in the marketplace as a vendor. We have to make things simple, right? There's still, you know, most of the IT infrastructure is still very complex to program and automate and the likes. That's where we're putting enormous amount of R&D efforts, right? DevNet is like the tip of the spear in showing fundamentally our very loyal, you know, CCIEs and everybody else that there's a better way to do things, right? Where you can actually really automate things together. You can get access to the APIs and simplify your life. You can simplify your life and the life of the business because you can get faster. So making things simple, automating them. I don't know if you think about, for instance, our cloud management or orchestration philosophy where the way cloud center, we have a patent where we can actually model the application once and deploying it to wherever you want, right? We can deploy that application on prem on a VM where like virialize kind of infrastructure. We can put it into AWS, we can put it in Azure, wherever you want. Kubernetes kind of target on prem. That is simplicity, right? We have to drive simplicity. And for me, it's all about automation. And sometimes you hear things like in 10 base architecture and infrastructure. All of that means simplicity and security, right? This doesn't mean, and that's the complexity of the whole thing for us is trading off, of course, all the complexity, richness and flexibility, but it's gonna be simple. If we don't make it simple, we are actually failing our goals. And that's where we're putting an almost amount of our in the effort. And Jonathan, you guys at WTO have a unique aperture view of the marketplace. You see a lot of the landscape knowing what you guys do. Every vendor, but you're really customer focused. So you're in, digging in with the customers. It's a real value added service. I got to ask you the question with multi-cloud. It sounds easy just to connect them all, right? I mean, yeah, it's like a subnet plug in the coax to put a hub there and put some adapter cards on a PC the old days of connecting things. It just metaphorically seems easy. What's the opportunity for connecting multi-cloud? So as people realize when they wake up tomorrow or today and they go, hey, you know what? I got a lot of multi-cloud around. How do I connect them together? What's the opportunity? What's the opportunity for Cisco? Because that seems to be like the first order of business. I can connect things together in the architecture. And then what happens next? What's the opportunity to connect these clouds? I mean, the opportunity is gigantic. I mean, if you look at just the growth of the public clouds themselves, the kagers that they're representing, they're growing, the weight they're growing on very big numbers already. And it often gets overlooked, but Gartner will tell you also that the co-location, that cloud edge space is also growing at a good kager. So you have just more and more going there. All of that needs to be connected. All of it needs to be protected. So networking is not just networking. Networking is security. So if you, a critical pillar of any security practices, really understanding and knowing in depth your network, the introspection of it all. And at the same time, we're moving from a physical world and we've moved and virtualized, but now the virtualization of the network now with SD-WAN coming, you're moving to a programmable model where everything needs to be programmed. So it's not humans. So it's almost like every arc, so that just in terms of the amount of data, the amount of traffic, that's all growing. But it's like, now it's not just humans, it's machines doing things. And then also it's not just like physical connections, it's software. So it's like a three-dimensional plot and it's growing on every access. Software is a device, software device connections, service connections. What's Cisco's opportunity? How positioned are they to do this? Because there's a lot of conversations around Edge, now you just mentioned a few of them, 5G. What's Cisco's opportunity in all this? Well, I mean, I think Cisco has shown recently and then through generations that they have a unique ability to lead and move with the market. And they're demonstrating that now. So I think the importance of where the network sits and not just the network, but again, there's an adjacency of security, right? There's an adjacency of orchestration and management. Their global presence, their global operation, the sophistication of their channel business. All those things put them in a really strong place, we feel. You mentioned SD-WAN previous in the comment around, you know, talking about Edge and stuff. If you think about Office 365, when companies roll that out, that basically takes SD-WAN from a little niche industry to all the internet. I mean, SD-WAN is basically the internet. Yeah, so your old grandfather's SD-WAN was over here. Now everything's SD-WAN, just that's basically the internet. So talk about the SD-WAN impact on this because with Edge, that's super important too. Yeah, yeah, well, it was back when we were talking about that traffic patterns are changing. So you're moving to no longer really this campus branch close network. There's still an important need for that, of course, but now you're doing your business where your customers are on their phone, in their car, which means you're having to traverse and work and scale in a very different way. So it's part where you have to put the network and then it's how you have to run and connect the network in your retail store and these other things. So part of it is doing what we've always done in a better way and then probably every day more of it is about doing things in a new way that you couldn't do in the past to achieve a new business objective. Well, Jonathan, thanks for coming on the CUBE Conversation. I'd love to have you back on. Great insight. We can also do remotes. So when you go back to the home ranch and say, Louis, we can bring you in. We told you Silicon Valley and St. Louis, man. Silicon Angle, Silicon Valley and St. Louis. And I'll say congratulations on your success with Cisco, Fabio, it'd been great to see you. Final word, Fabio, just to bring it all together, multi-cloud, it's here, kind of that's the reality. Yeah, I want to go back really to where we started the conversation, right? We can't forget that multi-cloud is still like a mean to an end. The end is companies want to become and need to become more innovative and fast. And that's actually why all this interest in multi-cloud, right, it's a business engine. That's why we're all so excited, because it's a business issue. It's not so much, you know, a brand new technology that probably in two years is going to be out of fashion. My personal prediction, we're going to be talking about multi-cloud for several years, on the contrary of other trends. And just to real quickly bring in what we've talked about before we came on camera, this is a CEO issue of companies, not CIO. Absolutely. CIO and the culture and the urgency, really, in all of this. Absolutely. Guys, thanks so much for coming on. Great insight, multi-cloud conversation, fantastic. Jonathan King, Vice President of Strategy and Data Center Cloud at WWT, and also Fabio Gori, Friend of the Cube, Senior Director of Clouds, who's working at Cisco. Thanks for coming on. This is The Cube Conversation, I'm John Furrier, thanks for watching.