 Welcome to the annual DEF CON convention. This meeting was held in exciting Las Vegas, Nevada from July 9th through the 11th, 1999. This is video tape number 11. Pagan, it's not way to your guy. I don't know how that happened. You can catch my email address at technopaganatmailcity.com. Thank you. Yeah, that's T-E-C-H-N-O-P-A-G-A-N at mailcity.com. I jumped off the USA.net because they want money to forward mail. I'm like, no, no, no. I'm finding someplace else to play. We're just kidding. There we go. I need a little background of myself, how I started getting into radio and electronics. This is my nose boot. I'm going to play with my drink bottle. There we go. Electronics and radio. God, I hate this laptop. So I'm going to take this out to the DEF CON sheet from me and just tell me what happened to it. Take some pictures. Anyway, what got me started, I can get a bit of background myself, is when I was about four years old, my father hand me a flashlight. I thought that was the most fantastic thing in the world. I could go exploring outside in the dark and I don't have a cord falling behind me and nobody could find me. That was really interesting. That's what sparked my interest in getting into electronics. When I was in grammar school, my mother came and got me a 100-month project, a radio shack, and that was a beat-all-and-all of everything. You could build great little things, be creative, a lot of satisfaction out of that. Currently, because of that, I went to tech school. I'm working in the microsensors industry now. We make very small sensing units. It's really fun stuff. Let's see. Oh, am I disclaimer for this little talk? You can't keep the stupid people from doing stupid things, and as always, I'm just trying to understand the world around me. I think that's what information is for. Radio and computers work great together. No doubt about it. For example, I went out to the Pomona Fairgrounds in California, and I needed to pick up some cash from an ATM. Walk up to the ATM, walk around it. There's only a plug plug in the ground. And nowhere else do I find any wire. And then I look up. You know, God, what do I see? An antenna sitting on top of the ATM. And it is not a cellular phone antenna. I'm thinking myself now, who is that talking to? Is there somebody listening to my transaction? Just how secure is this? Well, if you had a scanner and a couple of other small tools, you'd probably be able to sniff that traffic just by putting a small poll in its way and just reading whatever data comes through it. It wouldn't take long to figure out what carrier frequency it's on, judging by the size of the antenna. That's really cute. So all of you out there on computer land might want to take a trip to radio land because you can read the data going by. I'm going to sit down. Let's see, where should I start? The other reason why you'd want to get into radio and combine it with your computer hobby is I'm sure that some of you out there want to send unique information to a small group of your friends. And you don't want anybody knowing that the information was sent. Well, if you're sending your files over the phone lines, all you need to do is walk up and sniff that with a little pickup coil and find out information is going back and forth across this line. There's only one place to look on the phone line. Well heck, if you're doing that over radio, where do you look? Where do you start? You can't really tell if somebody is actually listening to something. And if you're transmitting data back and forth, you can direct the energy from the radio antenna in a very small area. So you're really kind of hard to find if you're transmitting data back and forth. The other advent of computers and radio are connected to a bunch of different things. Satellite links, the global positioning system, that's not really something to hack. It'd be fun to watch the data go by. Paging systems, those are fun. Some ATMs that have sorted fairgrounds, that'd be interesting to look into. Packet, radio, and the amateur radio bands. I'll get into that in a little bit. That's where two computer systems are hooked up to a box, a little computer and a piece of hardware called the terminal mode controller. That's where you can send information on the packet radio network, which is worldwide. This system, you can send letters, pictures, any number of things that you can send digitally. The uniqueness about this is it's kind of slow, but it's extremely robust. In fact, when you send information of a packet radio, the sending computer sends out a packet burst and waits for the return to come back that the packet was received okay. And it will keep sending that same packet over and over and over again until it gets, I received that packet, that's good, send another one. So if there's interference or somebody's trying to mess up your signal, the heart of the packet radio tries to send that signal through. It's really unique stuff, it's fun. Let's see. Oh yeah, the amateur radio service is one great way to get familiar with how to hook your computer in to radio systems. There's a nationwide or actually worldwide group of guys, peaks like us if you were, that have technical expertise in sending digital information via radio, how to build radio, how to set up antennas, how to disguise antennas, any number of things like that. Oh, they're also, they happen to have one with me at the head goodness. This is a child's toy. They're originally retailed for $90 and I can pick them up for about $14 or as a rest. They've discontinued them. No, these are 900 megahertz. This thing transmits and it's in the amateur radio band. So if you modify this, you can use this thing legitimately and it sends digital information. There's a digital display on here, there's voicemail in it, there's a 22nd digital voice recorder. It just goes on and on and on. Let's see. This thing won't get all the way across the hotel, but if you had your amateur radio license, legally you can boost that up to anywhere from like a lot to 25 watts and have all of its features. Another person that's going to be speaking, I think it was somebody, something like that, his name's Professor Fedobom. He's going to be doing something on micropower broadcasting and he's set up an entire system in software that you can take those sounds and use them as a pseudo cellular system, which is really cool. And it's done with his computer, a couple pieces of hardware and one of those. Let's see. If you were going to start hacking systems, what are the chances of you getting caught doing this? Well, it depends on whether you're transmitting or receiving. If you're just receiving trying to hack information coming your way, there's virtually no way to tell that you're sucking down the information and crunching the numbers out. If you're transmitting, that's another story, it depends on how much power you're putting out to try to obtain your information, trying to lie to systems and so forth. Not that I would do that anyway. The other thing is, are you standing still or moving while you're transmitting? If you're transmitting and you're moving, you're much, much harder to find if you're trying to send data out, if you're trying to hack a system. Let's see. This can't be all of it. I'm just getting more down here. Yes, there are. There's other things you can do legitimately like phone patches. You don't have to go through cellular networks. This wouldn't require a computer. It just requires a handheld radio and a use of a repeater system that you'd normally subscribe to. However, most of the traffic that's sent to repeater systems for phone patches can be hacked out using very, very little test equipment. What I mean by that is, let's say, I've got my amateur radio in my hand. There's a machine parked up on the mountain that listens to this particular frequency. I have tuned to, it hears me, it sends out the radio signal with a couple of hundred watts, it extends my range. I wonder if I can get away with this. I'm going to try using this overhead. I wasn't prepared for that. Am I going to get lucky? No. There's no materials, there's no news here. Okay, well anyway. If you're going to use a repeater system, you can get tremendous range and you can probably send digital information to the repeater system. Another way to send digital information on the air. The best way to get that phone patch would be to sit and watch for people using the repeater system and listen to what tones are being sent out. If you can't hear those tones, it's because they're being put on a carrier that humans can't hear but the machines can. And you can get test equipment instead of decipher what tones are being used to trip the repeater and make dial tone come over the air to you. Let's be able to make calls, order pizza, all kinds of neat things like that. The cost to... Let's go up a notch here. There's another advantage to digital communication. It's cheap. Getting into radio is rather inexpensive. Pocket scanners that you can use to suck down pager data, track the digital stream that's in one of the bands for the cellular phones. Picking up that gear to receive those digital signals is really, really cheap. Amateur radio gear is also inexpensive. For instance, you can get handheld radios that are used like that for around $125. You can also use those radios and plug right into the audio jack itself and start receiving digital information at the proper frequencies. Getting a radio and adding it to your computer is really easy. There are cards that you can load into card slots inside your machine. That way you have the radio receiver right in your computer. Those can be picked up in amateur radio catalogs. You can shop on the net for those. There are other computer cards that will do deciphering and decoding. One of the common decodes, yes. How do all those shields get into the RL? All that's in the computer, they're bulletproof. They take great care and make sure that the higher frequency machines like three or four hundred megamit heart machines aren't going to hammer the radio that's on the card that's in the machine. That's easy to protect against. They have to just put it in a nice metal box, solder it all closed, make sure the RF connector is of great quality. After that it's up to the user to make sure they put the proper coax connector on that and get the antenna as far as the computer is practical. Let's see. I can think of no better way than to get your amateur radio license. This is really amazing. When I first heard about being able to go to the FCC and say, I want a license for amateur radio, they promptly said, great. Here's all the answers to the questions of the test and the questions. When was the last time any of us walked into an institution trying to get some sort of degree diploma license, whatever, and the instructor hands you the test with all the questions on it and all the answers. It's easy to get your license and surprise that a lot more people don't have it. An example of the hackers and computer enthusiasts that are here today that actually have their amateur ticket and are studying radio. Noid is studying for his license. Evil, Ghost, Man was up here earlier. Fatal, Montat, Penny Larson are all studying for their amateur radio tickets and it's easy to do. Those questions are available for free. Currently, we have the following people that already have their amateur radio license that are here today. A.J. Rez, Professor Fido Baum, Nygma, Old Wolf, Bonk, Singapina Front Row, all of them actually have their amateur ticket and it took them a month off and on of studying the questions on your computer. And that was it. And he went down and took his test paper, he was whopping $3 for processing Fian Pham. He's now legally able to operate amateur radio bands, sharpen his radio skills, and add it to his computer skills. So he's going no longer limited to just hacking the phone line. Now you can hack the earwaves. And congratulations, that was a big push and he got it. That's great. Let's see. Heck, I already covered that license. Getting your license is easy. There are a bunch of places to look for more info to help you link your computer to radio. The amateur radio relay league is one of them. That would be A-R-R-L. Alpha-Romeo-Romeo-Lima.org. The prefix applies to B-W-W dot show dot time. There's also other publications you can find in Magazine Rack. Popular communications is one of them. And there's also quite a bit about just scanning the police bands with a pocket scanner. And there are a lot more things to listen to than just the police band when you go down to Radio Shack. I want to buy a scanner, show that they sell it to you, and most people just end up listening to the cops in the 400-Maker band. Well, I've got news. There's all kinds of interesting things out there, up to including cordless telephones, toys. There's a digital toy pager called Page-A-Friend or something like that. You can get it at Toys R Us. That's a digital circuit and more of a circuit link together in it. They're selling this stuff to kids. This one toy. RF, radio frequency, and digital hardware, just inseparable. Understanding it, knowing it, and exploiting it can be rather entertaining, especially if you just want to go driving around if you don't want to get found. Hook up the antenna, hook up the computer, hook up your cell phone. Maybe it's just so much, so flexible. Yes? Oh, this gentleman's referring to how do you get a hold of a radio scanner, a pocket scanner, that will receive the entire band. Well, there's a couple of ways around this. People didn't want their phone, let me back up a little bit on how come the holes got there. Somebody winded and complained to the cellular companies saying, hey, people are listening to my conversations. Okay, right. Well, get rid of the radios that will receive those frequencies and then legislate it out a certain band of frequencies in your scanner. So you're free to see what's going on in the airwaves that's been impinged. They deleted the cellular band out of the scanners. Well, there's a way around that. That's called a down converter. You won't be able to buy that scanner that you want that's continuous, that'll sweep the entire band. So what you do to get around that is you can buy a converter, they're still legal, they always will be. What this does is it's a radio receiving front end that sucks up the cellular information coming out over the airwaves, chops its radio frequency in half, let's say, and now instead of that 896 megahertz signal coming through into your scanner out your speaker, the converter box is taking it from 900 megahertz down to 400 megahertz, goes into your scanner and now the information comes out of your speaker. So there's a workaround for that. Registrating this out was absolutely toothless. Yes. Yeah, you can get them as portable as you like. They go right with your base station or handheld scanner. They're inexpensive. It's just one more thing you got to buy because somebody wanted to whine and complain that their conversations are being listened to. Okay. Just to get rid of the skip instruction, the engineers found out that that legislation was coming along. So they decided to, okay, well, we'll modify the scanner's wink-wink-nudge-nudge that, you know, it'll make the lawmakers happy and it won't curtail sales. The Pro2006 scanner, which is no longer made or sold in the commodity or shack, had a modification. All you needed to do was open the top cover up, get out a pair of wire cutters, cut one component called a diode, slap it back together, prove no legislation interference. Your cellular came back. Now it's not so easy. They're making the engineers, you know, the wily guys that realize what was going on and thumb their nose at the legislation have now been forced into a corner by doing all that non-modification stuff in the ASIC or the software, the firmware, the machine. There's nothing you can do about it presently. Early on you could just mod the scanner back to original operating condition. Well, what they did was, first it was hardware modifications and then the engineers tried it again. They said, okay, there's no more hardware modifications and all you had to do was hold a couple of keys down on some of the scanners, power it on, and poof, here comes the cellular reception again, thumbing their nose at legislation once again. But the legislators finally got wise and decided that, no, you guys aren't going to make that sort of thing anymore for sale in the United States. You can buy that stuff over the net in the UK or something like that and they'll say it's not for import or something like that. And yeah, they'll ship to Jamaica, Japan or some crap like that. Jump on a plane, make yourself some money, go get a peer box somewhere and start running radios across the border or something if you want to get around it. Well, there we go, there's another whole system. There we go, that works too. No, the problem that I personally have with somebody trying to legislate, don't listen to this, meaning one of these whiny, pissy money crap is, hey, you're broadcasting, you're on an analog channel on your cell phone, tough. You are broadcasting, you've got a radio in your hand, two-way device. Just because somebody slaps the label on it and says, phone doesn't mean that you're on a phone, you're on a radio, you're broadcasting. You know, it's like, get over it, don't say anything you wouldn't say if you weren't at home. You got a hard wire at home, you're not broadcasting, yeah. To me listening to that, that's not nice. I expect privacy there, but there's no reasonable expectation of privacy in my book. You know, I'm broadcasting on a cellular phone, and therefore I don't mind my saying, go ahead and listen. It's not legal, but do it anyway, because who in the hell is going to catch you? You're receiving done it. Shmox, anyway, I shouldn't be thinking about my personal political beliefs about being on a monitor cellular conversations. Yeah, that's good, yeah. The names are really programmable in the areas that you're receiving, and also, we're back in my books to pull that out. And I'm going to also point out that in a little bit of the names, their intermodal characteristics are so bad. Yeah, yeah. I ran a... It was so bad. It was so low. It was so bad. Right, what this gentleman is referring to is some of these scanners that have been cell blocked are so bad. And what they'll choose to listen to and choose not to listen to, that you can tune above or below a certain spot in the cellular band and hear it anyway. And there's not much that anybody can complain about that. That's kind of a flaw in the engineering. I wonder if somebody actually designed things that way. Yes. Encrypting your own transmissions? Glad you asked. I was talking to the professor about this the other day in preparation for my talk, and he had mentioned something about Bowdo, which is a five-digit binary code to send things out like ASCII's what. It's... Right, forgive me if I'm not really up in the computer aspect of everything my business is dealing with hardware, dealing with the soldering iron end of things. As far as software goes, keeping track, not too good at it. As far as encrypting goes like this gentleman mentioned, yeah, it's pretty easy and pretty simple to get away with saying, oh, I didn't realize I was sending an encrypted transmission. Especially when you're sending a lot of packets in the clear, and then all of a sudden you send a couple of garbage packets that happen to be encrypted to have the zip, you know, PK zip stuck in there. Along with your Bowdo, now your computer that's monitoring your radio traffic is just going to look at that as trash. There's lots of trash being sent anyway. So, yeah, you can encrypt, but just make sure that less than half of what you're sending is encrypted. That way you don't end up raising an eyebrow. Oh, he's just got a crappy transmitter where the software on his computer is and like really up to par, and it's not sending the data like it should and so forth. So, yeah, you can send encrypted information. There's been rumors that people have been sending really not so legal things over packet radio pictures. I guess you can use your imagination on what's going on. Yes? I'm not ready to be thinking about the NCC, but I know I'm going to be thinking about the NCC. You're right, you're not supposed to, the FCC in a nutshell says that you're not supposed to be encrypting stuff. Well, tough. Shut that down. That's, you know, it's like legislating everybody's got to wear black shoes. That's going to happen. Yeah. Okay. Just another 2600 shirt. Right. The down convert is what he's asking about. Yeah, I would imagine that you can get up converse, but down converse are more conducive because what you're trying to do is take a higher frequency, receive it, and then convert it down to something that's easier to deal with. The lower frequencies are easier to deal with than higher ones. Higher frequencies you have to deal with, cleanliness of the circuit when you really get up there, you know, actually physically clean getting all the flux and other materials out of it. The space, design considerations, how close together you can get things, how short wires have to be, that sort of thing. But yeah, down conversion, most common, they're fairly cheap. Yes? Tempest. That's an interesting thing. If you want a tempest shield, break out the aluminum foil. That's it. Break out the aluminum foil, get yourself what's called snap on RFI chokes. It's two pieces of powdered iron in a block. It's shaped like a C and then there's one piece of plastic that goes around it, goes around the two pieces of powdered iron, unwrap your computer cords and things and those four or five times. They're cheap, they're $15 for four of them at Cam or your outlet in Anaheim, California, but you can get those anywhere. I just thought I'd throw that reference out there so you'd have some place to start. As far as tempest shielding goes, it's easier to shield them than receive. I've been there. Building sensitive, selective amplifiers is a little bit tricky. There are some off-the-shelf things that you can modify. I've had articles. In fact, I wonder, I've probably got some tempest data in here. Let me exit out of this and see what I can find. Go ahead and stand up and we're not buying any more tonks of milk. I remember seeing something like that on the mat. There's also a defeat for that and it's how you do your pixels. It's kind of like, have you ever taken your paycheck and photocopied it and all of a sudden it says copy or a void or something like that on the copy that comes out of the machine, but you look at it and go, everyone has little blue dots in the background, it's blue. All of a sudden they look at the thing real close and you find out that the, copy has got the word void in there. Well, you can alter the pixels on your computer screen, so when somebody tries to read your information remotely, the pixels don't make that much of a difference in the noise they put out that the person attacking is trying to receive. So when they point their antenna around to your terminal and want to read it, you've got pixels in there that are making almost the same radio signature, making a different picture signature. So what they're going to look at is some weird thing, and you've got your screen, like they'll get zebra stripes and you'll get your page of text cleared and they won't. That's one way of defeating against tempest, sort of shielding your monitor. Oh geez, I jumped out of that. That was not good. There we go. If you're looking around in the net for tempest, and just keep at it day in, day out, and start to throw out the sights that are junky, gosh, there's a site that's in Holland that is in the means real short and escapes me. I'll be available on email to answer that question, but what the heck name is it? I'm going to dump the notes, and I'm going to look for that. Because I know it's a Holland site, and it's just on the tip of my tongue that it's drowning. I'm not trying to figure this out. Here's one more question regarding the tempest case. I experimented with a user who used to see in that video about 200, say your laptop, and she said the spectrum analyzer was more like an high-end hospital. Okay, I know what a spectrum analyzer is, but could you explain what? Well, the more that the user wants the spectrum analyzer, the more it actually needs it. Oh, I see what you mean. You can make it go through. Yeah, there are cards that will go buzzing through the radio spectrum and give you a signal report as to what's been where. So you can have your computer system log the radio spectrum in your local area and start having it isolate and skip over bands of frequency like the FM broadcast band. There's 22 megahertz of stuff you don't need. It'll drop it, it'll skip right over that and skip over the television band and it'll start looking for stuff that hardly ever gets used and just to stop on scanning for a little bit. The stuff that's hardly ever used is the most interesting stuff of all. All kinds of obscure transmissions go by once a month, twice a month, but if your scanner is still looking for that, you know, going over the real quiet stuff, you'll find some pretty interesting things. You don't want to cover the whole entire television band away because a lot of surveillance cameras use the... Right, yeah, they get into the band, they'll... Right, yeah, there's no part of the radio spectrum that's sacred to anyone that wants to do something unique. I've often had thoughts of having an encryption scheme using the local radio station as a key. You add the local radio station KFI with your transmitted signal on your CD radio or if you combine the two, it comes out trash. But if you use the KFI radio receive signal on the other end to subtract it, your buddy's voice comes out nice and clear and you can do things that way. I was done in 1988 when I was in high school going through a triax class and I'm like, I get to figure out how to be quiet on those things. I want to tell people things that I don't want other people to hear. So that was pretty fun. I'm going to find that site because there's a bunch of things there. They've got stuff on herping and a whole bunch of other things. So... Yeah. The same noise in the background as before. Yeah, that makes an intelligence gatherer life just a nightmare trying to pull stuff like that down. A friend of mine thought that the feds were trying to do things so he invited a friend over. He'd just turned the bass up really, really loud and he thought they were trying to bounce off his window. They were trying to laser bounce. So he just decided to scatter the signal. If he can't collect it, he hit a bass note that's going to deflect the laser beams at the point where they won't be able to collect it. They dance around all the way somewhere to find it. So he decided to start doing that. And apparently my tempest files are not in here. Yeah. Going over radio and the amateur radio band there's a speed limit. I think it's 14.4. I'm not sure. It's going to be higher than that. Do you have... do you have a tapper.org tip? Hmm, okay. Oh, there's a... And it's... That's correct to say that. And take an email it to you. Yeah, there's... you can also find... you can also find aid in getting tested on the ARRL site. You just look... you just go to me on the ARRL site you'll find it under a test or licenses or some such thing. Is that a question in the bank? Have I played with pulse radio? No, I have not. I've played with pulse radio. I've played with pulse radio. I've played with pulse radio. I've played with pulse radio. I was doing a live stream of cards on the pulse radio. I've played with the company because they're all still in the process. I've played with the hospital to check out some of the records and all the sessions. I've been with the staff. Mm-hmm. Thank you. Thank you. Great, I'd like to have that information. Is that the birth transmission system? Is that like birth transmissions as the gentleman asks? It's used to be a... sensitive to have a past transition on the future of the future of the transmission of all of the services of all of the services as they have to survive by their need for treatment. And so... ... I'm calling another page here. Yes? Oh, yeah, I'm modifying an older cell phone to go into, like, a test or a maintenance mode or something like that and go scanning through the band. What's that now? Well, you just... Having the amateur radio license affords you the liberty of checking for interference only. Which means you can on and actively scan through and momentarily listen to for the duration of checking for interference. You can listen to the cellular band if you want to. So if you just exploit that a little bit, so I don't recommend that. Yes? Two-way paging? Okay. Well, we'll back up a little bit here. As far as I know, you're bending your ear to a paging frequency and listening to it is no consequence. There's no problem there. The moment you start actively building up circuits and designing software you go after PogSeg, Dole, Flex, Format which are all publicly available on the net, I might add. You can find... If you just type in PogSeg or Flex Format into a search engine, chances are you'll find, you dig around a little bit, you'll find the schematics, find the software to suck up paging information in your local area. My favorite is going after the prostitutes and busting them. That's fun. It takes a little while. You have to figure out what service they're subscribing to, and after you've done that then you go through the phone numbers for that block, have your software start looking for the message you just sent out, you've got her. So you can just roll over beat cell phone hacking. Right. It's not your broadcasting. So when you send a page and you Flex Format or PogSeg, Dole, whatever you like you're broadcasting. So don't say I've got the $14 million. Where's my 15 billion pounds of cocaine? Don't do that. It sends all kinds of information like the signature the signature numbers and so forth. I don't know the exact terms what do they call that. I guess it's just the pager's address number what, 6, 8 digits long or something like that and if the FBI really wants to get into it they can find you if they felt like it. So no broadcasting. Yes? But you put the problem with that is you have to get you have to send your page when the other paging signal is not currently on the other and that's like 5 seconds, 10 seconds 1 second you have to know when to click on your transmitter and send the burst. See because it'll be stepped on because I've been to these paging sites in tops of the hotels in Los Angeles and there's these nice big 19 inch rack mount things and these big thick wires coming out with lots of power and they're all synchronized. The transmissions are synchronized and they're all over the coverage all at once in the entire basin or it comes off a satellite with repeating systems all here at all at the same time so that's like yeah so you've got to be able to step right into the middle when the radio transmitter shuts off and you turn yours on and then get out of there and let the rest of the traffic go by that's the other thing the FCC gets real pissy about is the two things public safety and big money commerce big money commerce means interfacing with the aging frequencies because there's cash going by there and if I owned a multimillion dollar business like a paging net I'd be rather upset if somebody was interfacing with my frequency and go complain to the FCC and they'll all wane terror on you no problem that and other public safety stuff all right that was the other thing if anybody wants to hack the public safety systems please don't there's plenty of people out there that need those services you want to hack something hack the trash trucks or the taxi cabs or something don't hack the safety systems yeah yeah don't go doing things like that either it's not a cool thing I don't have the information on that for the past like three or four months I have been playing with a motor home like God I don't have the information on that for the past like three or four months I have been playing with a motor home like God has here plug for shadowco.org because the pictures of that thing are on that site so yeah I'm in as well I used to and soon we'll have another web page on shadowco.org as if for both machines we're gonna get hit for all the Windows information that Mojo's gonna put up there we're gonna have a heck of a time getting when he gets back and deal with Old Wolf he's just gonna be sitting in front of his box I can find him now he'll be administering his machine for all the returns on information from the talk Mojo gave how do you to to seize a network in the area you gotta figure out how to widen the machine which means you're going to have to do a lot of listening you have to do a bit of research I can't see why you'd want to be able to control the network have you got something in mind or sending your own signals through it that would be a very unique exploit using the existing radio systems to pervade your own madness that would I would really be interested in hearing what your thoughts are on that do email me with all the particulars send some block diagrams back and forth or something at least do this in theory because most of the exports and things that I think of are just like an interesting chess match can you really do this? is it really doable? okay it is, great do I really want to do this? I guess I'm nice to do but just the mental exercise of primely can you send digital traffic through the cellulose system getting that being the man in the middle of a microwave system is really unique and it does require a bit of research you've got to have your pole and stick it up into the stream and sniff it and find out what's going by here what's on this thing that's just taking a look at the world around you and trying to understand it now getting back to what I had said earlier about going to the Pomona Fairgrounds and sticking your pole up at the front of the UTM is kind of obvious what you're doing it's like yeah but that's nothing that a clipboard an orange vest and a hard hat can't cure so if people believe you're supposed to be there you believe that you're supposed to be there so yeah but like I said most of the things I think of are can it really be done and from the laugh I would say yeah it can be believable if you orange vest, little spikes and clipboard and ramble off some tech speak and even some security guard well hey can you keep people away from this thing for a while just switch it all around just security guards there to ask you what to do you're telling him what to do because you need to get your job done and he's going to go oh ok you're legit and you're asking me to do things instead of defending yourself you're just employing me so wow so any other questions I'm about out of time and I'll find out who's speaking next think of something else for me to answer a question about ok ok ok ok ok right ok oh you mean crystals yeah I don't know where you're from but there are swap meets and I'll plug one that I frequent once a month what is it last Saturday of every month at the company called TRW and it's got nothing to do with credit checking and stuff they're actually building things there the TRW swapped me last Friday of every month near Rosecrance and Aviation Avenue no in Southern California I know most people are not from Southern California you guys are from all over the freaking planet it's in Torrance I believe but look for Rosecrance and Aviation Boulevard and that will tell you what's going on it's kind of near the four or five freeway and there is all kinds of computer gear and amateur gear there no clothing no other furniture radio gear and electronics and so forth and you find all kinds of unique obscure things that say department of Navy and boxes that are just so heavy my god what's in here type of thing so you never know what's going to show up really out here out here I have seen so many unique boxes that have been declassified in like under 20 years that are out there it's like yeah there's all kinds of radio gear to be had for that was the other thing my talk is about radio gear and how cheap it is to get I have to do is look unfortunately he's from the territory that you say is like an underground you got to keep it kind of quiet there's actually radio gear we've got a nice little area out here Los Angeles is in our backyard and so forth there's tons of gear there's a swamp meet but there's still tons of radio gear out there all kinds of gear I picked up a telephone test set that you had to load 22 and a half foot batteries into and 9 volt batteries that were round that look like sea batteries that had one 9 volt connector on one side and another 9 volt connector on the other the little rings weird stuff out there so all you have to do is just walk around take a look there's plenty of things to experiment with to hook your computers in searching them on the net is one way to get in hold of stuff you can email me at technicalpigmentmailcity and I'll see what I can find the tempest thing rather interests me both same day and receive because that's all about radio and can I really do this there was an article on the back issue of 2600 that covered tempest and how they were rounding our New York City and watching everything going on that was sensitive I mean just the general population office type stuff they went down Wall Street they went down a few other places they stopped in front of an ATM and picked a few things up it's just frightening how loose everything is via radio you know if things are loose via telephone how much looser you know the telephone wire how much looser is radio radio is all over the place all you have to do is listen now let's skip the transmitting stuff just tuning in the world around you is just an amazing thing how am I doing on time here I don't know the guys who wanted to figure out a little crash like they were doing construction they could wall out but they weren't the only ones like they could make or something they were really thinking and she placed it there it does not take much to convert it does not take much to convert and I would stand up video game into an ATM being there so what if it's too big part of the board is heavy you can put some sheet metal on the outside looks like wood tastes like wood looks like an ATM to me there are all kinds of crazy stories like that people wanting to get caught doing that the ones that don't get caught and you don't get if you don't hear of it's just frightening this is a mad crazy place of all the silicon and radio waves flying around understand it and get on the good side of it rather than being left in the dark I think my time is up I don't see anybody now I'm next circle up here but thank you very much for me bringing it I need to mention that but