 Hello and welcome to the drum history podcast. I'm your host Bart van der Zee and today I'm joined by Steve Loudon who is the author of forbidden beat perspectives on punk drumming Steve welcome to the podcast Oh, man. Thanks so much for having me on. Yeah, and thank you for sending me the book. It is awesome I've been thoroughly enjoying it. It's it's one of these types of books that I really like where it's like it's like stories and it I guess a lot of chapters that are different pieces because it's hard to find time to read So it's very like you can just kind of work your way through it And I've highlighted a couple things throughout that I liked but I'm excited to hear more from you So we'll talk more about your background and all that good stuff kind of towards, you know, the end of it but let's just jump in with The first couple essays in here talk about the history of punk drumming and then it kind of blows up from there So teach us about the history of punk drumming a little bit Yeah, I mean I got really lucky the the idea originally for the book was I was gonna research and write sort of a tome on the history of punk rock drumming and The more I kind of dug into it the more I thought it would be much more interesting to hear directly from other people who've had personal experience with the genre playing drums or playing with drummers or just music writers who are fans of the genre and So I took the approach of moving away from me actually writing it to focusing on essays interviews and top five lists where people get a chance to talk about their major influences in punk rock drumming So then in putting it together when I started getting submissions What I realized is I was very concerned that we wouldn't lay the groundwork Appropriately because it could seem a little random with those different ways of talking about it But I had worked with Ira Elliot who's the drummer and not a surf on a previous book That's laid out very much in the same way that was all about the history of power pop and he wrote about drumming for that as well And I asked him to write about proto-punk and garage rock because he's like a really big fan of 60s music and in particular Ringo Starr from the Beatles So he dug in and did something very interesting where he talked about the the genesis of straight eighth notes versus swung eighth notes in rock and roll And so he gave me a proto-punk and garage rock essay that actually starts with Chuck Berry's drummer Fred bearer Oh, sorry Fred bellow in the 1950s He then works his way forward to people like Scott Ashton from the Stooges Dennis Thompson from the MC5 Mo Tucker from the Velvet Underground From there we get into Jerry Nolan who was the drummer in the New York dolls and ended up being the drummer in Johnny Thunders and the Heartbreakers a very famous proto-punk early punk drummer in New York and then he lands on Tommy Ramone, which is a very interesting story because the Ramones first drummer was not a drummer. He was their manager and their producer and Joey the lead singer was the original drummer But they they decided he should sing he should be up front Yeah, and they tried to find a drummer, but nobody could bring to life Tommy's vision as the producer So he said I'll do it and he unwittingly by playing super straight Basically creates the template for what becomes punk rock drumming So that's that's the like encapsulated history of what sort of Ira talks about. Yeah from there The next essay is Kurt Weiss who actually wrote a fantastic autobiography of Jerry Nolan from the New York dolls and the Heartbreakers that's called stranded in the jungle and it's all about Jerry's personal Travels through the proto-punk and punk scene. He obviously had some struggles with substance abuse Interestingly, he's an acolyte of Jean Croupeau which a lot of people wouldn't realize that Jean Croupeau had this profound Impact on punk rock. So it's very lucky to get Kurt Weiss to contribute an essay about Jerry Nolan But also placing him in the context of everything that I was set up. Yeah, and then lastly a Really well respected English journalist and musician named John Robb who started a website called louder than war wrote the sort of encapsulated mini history of first wave British punk in the 1970s fans like the slits the sex pistols the clash Generation X and then going into post-punk with things like joy division in the buzzcocks Unbelievable, I mean, it's so it's you I guess I I also need to explain too because you you refer to it But it is just to clarify the book is really an awesome collection of essays Which you just referred to but that's kind of sets up that it's just this firsthand knowledge from a lot of people Which you don't get I mean, I think it would have been awesome if you yourself just wrote a book about Punk drumming, but I gotta be honest I took the same route with the podcast of like I started and I was like I'm gonna do the history of drums But like my god, how much work would that be and how much would I have missed if I didn't interview people like you So to kind of crowdsource and have people help is is it opens you up to a bunch of new stuff? And you've got some big drummers in here. I mean, I Think there's a lot of huge punk fans out there, but it's I think people might be learning for the first time So you're doing a good job of explaining who who they are and I mean Trey cool is in here There's all kinds of like household name drummers, but also the I Don't know the the underground guys and can you explain a little what proto punk is? And what that would kind of classify as just cuz cuz I think post punk is pretty clear, you know, that makes sense But what is proto punk? What does that refer to? Proto punk is basically a way for people to push the Genesis of punk rock the initial creation of punk rock back a little further, right? Cuz you could just look at like it started with the sex pistols And then you go like well, is that true because the Ramones were around a couple years before that It's like it started with the Ramones And then you go like yeah, but is that true because they were really into the New York dolls And it's like started with the New York dolls and you go like is that really true because the Stooges were and you know Yeah, so proto punk is before the formal Establishment of punk rock in the mid 70s in New York around CBGB's and in London around like the 100 Club With all the bands that I mentioned previously That's that scene of like the Garden of Eden for punk rock But there are all these bands that were kind of led up to it and we're already bringing elements of that into their music So I think that's the easiest way to explain proto punk That's interesting and good to know but also it's funny because then it goes back where you referred to the drummer before and There's so many names in here forgive me if I miss some but where he was a fan of Jean Krupa and it's like It just keeps going back and back and back and guys like John Bonham obviously in that rock side They're influenced by Jean Krupa and these jazz guys so It goes very far back So all right, so then those are those early kind of history based essays now Just maybe go a little through the book and pick out some of your favorite Things that you've put together and learned and just and we'll go from there I mean, I gotta be honest taking this approach Was a little self-serving because really then I got to learn I learned a lot like I've been listening to punk rock since I was in my You know, I was a tween basically And you know, I had been raised by a couple older brothers who I was very very lucky They were much older than me, but by the time I was 12 or 13 I'd already seen Aerosmith and Dio and Def Leppard and they were very into like what we would now call classic rock or heavy metal sure and So I was fed a pretty straight diet of that and they gave me a fantastic foundation as a music fan Right now I still love some of that music a lot right like I could listen to Aerosmith toys in the attic non-stop, you know But when I was like 12 some neighborhood kids played a dead Kennedys record for me They like, you know some they were like in bondage pants will spiked hair and like safety pins You know and they were really going for the the fashion part of it And they just kind of blew my mind They played this music that was kind of scary and fast and they were singing about stuff that I hadn't heard before And it opened something up inside of me I felt like I had discovered music that was my own for all the fantastic Stuff that my brothers had exposed me to this felt like something that I discovered, right? Yeah, so really I look at like the dead Kennedys is the first thing that opened my eyes to the possibilities So to get an excerpt from DH Poligro's book Which is called dreadknot which is Unbelievable, I mean, it's like no holds barred this guy lived the life. Yeah That that was like one of those moments where I was like, okay Maybe this book idea is actually gonna get legs and is actually gonna go forward on at the same time When I was a teenager and I was getting interested in music and writing pretty much at the same time like about 1516 my mind was just getting blown every day and it was writing in music writing and music writing in music They those were the things that were very important to me Unwittingly the first place I ever got published was this really famous punk zine called flipside I had written for a little stapled zine in my neighborhood that maybe like Xerox 25 or 50 copies and handing them out around my high school and I wrote about a local band and They gave it to flipside and flipside ran it So I went into this record store one day and the guy handed me a copy of flipside and my byline was in it Wow, so getting somebody like Hudley flipside who was part of the flipside scene to tell me her five favorite punk drummers Was really incredible Getting bon bon wheelie from girl trouble, you know, which is a well-known Garage punk band from Tacoma was unbelievable Matt deal who's a fantastic? Journalist and writer and longtime punk aficionado writing about the d-beat which isn't like really hard to explain Yeah, actually, that's the essay where you get a little differentiation and some definition around what a forbidden beat is Versus what a d-beat is Getting to know Lynn Perco trull who is one of the earliest female hardcore punk drummer She started a all-female punk band or joined an all-female punk band in Reno called the Rex and This is late 70s early 80s, and she's playing hardcore punk as a female She ends up joining the dicks in San Francisco legendary hardcore band hearing her story was just like wow I can't believe I have somebody giving me this perspective and this experience and sharing it with me Laura Bethita Neptune is an old friend of mine. She's writing about Gina shock. I love Gina shot. Yeah, Pete Feinstone who was a The second drummer for bad religion but covered a lot of what people call the golden era from like 82 to 92 He actually played on the bad religion song forbidden beat, which I named the book after and he's in the book Jim Ruland who's another excellent musician writing about Bill Stevenson from the descendants Bill Stevenson is Hands-down one of my favorite punk rock drummers of all time So it's the list just goes on and on. I mean every time I look at the table of contents for this book I'm a little surprised and honored and humbled by it, but every time I reread something I'm just beside myself with like how much valuable information there is for such a nitchy topic Yeah, and the variety makes it again It's like I don't know if people are like me where it takes me a year to read a book because there's just so much again with young kids and stuff, but like It's just like you can just kind of read as you go and pick and choose topics that you like and the Dead Kennedys the DH I always said Pellegrino. How do you pronounce it? I said Pellegrino? I could be wrong. No, I don't know We'll go with the DH Pellegrino Chapter I actually marked here and just because reading that because I grew up loving the Dead Kennedys had a big Dead Kennedys sticker On the bottom of my skateboard, which as soon as it got kind of scratched up I was like I wasted a cool sticker But there's some really neat stuff in here his stories about you kind of forget with like the Dead Kennedys who again There's so many bands in here, but they're a personal favorite of like just how political it is and how it's almost it's bigger Than the band it's like this like like he was talking about how there was a lot of police activity He would be pulled over more often. He would be there'd be like police activity Or I'm sorry, there'd be police like on the the buildings around when they played outdoor shows It's just so cool. I never would have known that because I you know, you just don't hear this stuff except when it's compiled together Yeah, well, I mean that was specifically a rock against Reagan show, right? So like that was political in nature Oh, yeah, I mean at the same time I grew up in Los Angeles and I'm a little bit younger Than a lot of these bands that I'm talking about here, but I mean the LAPD specifically targeted the punk rock scene and In particular within that black flag shows for a long time and you would get young cops Basically just coming and getting in their Billy Club practice on punk rockers at shows, right? I was in even in the mid to late 80s. I was in a couple punk rock related riots I went to see the Ramones play at the Palladium and we were in the show and it was fantastic And it was just the Ramones right like, you know, like what what could be possibly threatening? Well, there were a bunch of people outside who couldn't get into the show by the time we came out There was a full-scale riot happening. There were riot police everywhere and the minute we walked outside We were it was just like open season on us So now we're running through the parking lot and we've got these young cops chasing us my friend got his elbow broken by a Billy Club and like so there was a time when punk rock was Actually super dangerous and that's hard to understand now in retrospect because it got so mainstreamed in the 90s Yeah, but it was really dangerous and a lot of authority figures wanted to combat it And I think that and I think that that's an important thing to make sure that we have that as part of the foundation of the Story within the book as you're following along the arc of how punk progresses over the decades. Yeah Yeah, absolutely the you mentioned the DB before and Spike T Smith has been on the podcast took doing an episode on the DB, but I think we should maybe So the the to keep it kind of you know drum related the the beats are so important in punk drumming and DB is one but but like there's almost like I feel like I Don't say rules to punk drumming, but it seems like there's there's like, you know It's it's got some Guidelines that you have to follow along with for it to be punk a little bit or just like the speed you just don't hear certain Latin rhythms too much in punk drumming Maybe talk about the beat choices throughout the eras a little bit because I think that's a that's a cool topic Yeah, no, I think that's tuned again This is something I learned as I put the book together because one of the things I did early on was I created a timeline and tried to keep myself honest about talking about the totality of punk rocks evolution because What does it happening with punk rock is the fans are so into it? They're so dedicated and loyal over the course of their life that they tend to think of punk rock is the thing They grew up with but it's evolved and mutated and splintered and and become so many different things to so many different people Yeah, so that progression is super interesting. Yeah There's some rigidity around the the drumming choices and the kind of beats people play But I think that's really specific to the hardcore punk scene in the 80s And what we're talking about there the two main ones is forbidden beat Which is just what lucky lairer who is the drummer from the circle jerks who wrote the forward to the book Describes as a very fast Oompa beat button button button button button Which a lot of people would would automatically associate with punk rock, right? There's that speed and then the really fast single stroke rolls, right? That's what's called the forbidden beat. The D beat is like the forbidden beat except for the stress is on the and and there's a lot more Tom and cymbal play. So you get more of a gallop. It's very idiosyncratic to play. Yeah. And actually Matt Deals essay taught me a lot about it, right? Because you automatically associate that with Tess Roberts and discharge. But actually, John Maher from the Buzzcocks in a song called You Tear Me Up plays what is considered to be an early version or a proto version of the D beat. And he talks about it. I think he gets quoted in the story or in the essay that Matt Deals writes that he did that because he couldn't keep up with the tempo. And so he had to engineer a way to be able to play as fast as the song demanded to the rhythm of the song. So those are the two major beats in the eighties to start to emerge. But if you take a step back, I mentioned Tommy Ramone earlier. He played really straight eighth notes all the way through barely ever. I don't think he ever actually played a role and he would hit the cymbal in odd times in the song, not not in the place you'd always expect it, right? And so he creates that sort of like driving straight ahead tempo four on the floor model for punk rock. But Paul Cook from the Sex Pistols, you know, I interviewed Steve McDonald from Red Cross. Guy's been in punk band since he was 12 years old. Knows punk rock inside and out. He's played with off, he's played with the Melvins, he's played with Red Cross, played with a lot of people. He points out that really Paul Cook is a meat and potatoes pub rock drummer, which means he's just a rock drummer, right? Like, I mean, that's the simplest way to put it. He played in a punk band, he's unbelievable in the Sex Pistols, and all the music he's done since then. Fantastic drummer. But it's more of a rock style of drumming that has absolutely nothing to do with what comes later in the forbidden beat, what comes later in the DB. In between, you get people like Rat Scabies from the Damned. Again, self-taught, very rudimentary. He's the person that probably I would look to as like the sweet spot for early punk rock drumming, real heavy reliance on the toms. He's hitting really, really hard. He's taking some risks with rhythms, but you can kind of hear him like learning as he goes, which is a part of the charm of early punk rock. Yeah, yeah, for sure. But interestingly, he becomes this bridge from from the 70s style that's based more on rock to what becomes hardcore because the Damned were the first punk band from Britain to tour the US. When they came here and they played in New York and LA, I think they might have played in Minneapolis, too, if I'm remembering. They tripled the beats, the BPMs. Wow. And so they're playing so fast, these songs that people know from that first record, right? New Rose, Neat, Neat, Neat, and all that stuff. That certain kinds of punks responded to the tempo and said, hey, man, there's something we can really latch on to. So really, it ends up being Rat Scabies from the Damned who pushes in this hardcore direction. So then you get hardcore in the 80s, that's where you get the rigidity, right? Some of this rules around how we should play, how we should not play. And I should mention here that the first time I ever heard the phrase forbidden beat, I briefly played in a hardcore band called The Fish Sticks. So imagine the Black Flag Bars, but they were fish sticks. And if I would get tired in practice and I started alternating the hi-hat and the snare rather than playing the beats all the way through on the hi-hat, the bass player would stop and go, don't play the forbidden beat. So for him, it was a derogatory term, meaning don't be lazy. Oh, wow. Do you know the real, is the real origins of why it's called the forbidden beat? Is that known? Oh, I don't know. I've had a couple first wave punk rock guys in LA go like, we always use that as an insult. But I've had plenty of other people tell me that they mean that as the oompa beat that became the hardcore beat. So I think there are variations on the definition of that. But again, I named it after the Bad Religion song primarily. Oh, OK. I didn't know if that was like a, if that was the official name is the forbidden beat or if that's just you referring it to it as. It's Lucy Goosey. Got it. Got it. Yeah. But that's I love with all the beats, though. And I think Spike talked about it on his episode a little bit about how, yeah, it's used for punk, but the same beat is used in like African rhythms. This same beat is used for literally polka, I mean, or you hear like the Ramon type songs or Dead Kennedys where they're just super fast to for and it's just how it's applied and the music and the attitude makes a big difference. But, you know, drums, there's not that many beats you can choose from. I mean, there are a lot, but it's different than other tonal instruments, as we know. So it's pretty cool. Yeah. But you also that after hardcore, when we start getting into that confusing late 80s era of like college rock, alternative rock, when things start to move in that direction and you see bands like The Replacements or Who Scrooge Do transitioning from being punk bands into being what becomes alternative rock and then pop punk hits and skate punk hits, right? So then you get people like Travis Barker from Blink 182, you get Trey Kool from Green Day, you get an incredible drummer like Derek Plored from Lagwagon. You start to see the rise of technical proficiency as a pronounced part of punk rock in the 90s. And that's the rise of the sort of like star punk drummer, which has continued to this day. So it completely continued to evolve. And then as I was talking about the timeline, I got some drummers who were playing now in young bands like Sherry Page from Thick, right? Or Ryan Hackney, who's playing in Rough Francis or Fanny Diaz, who's playing an excellent Texas band called Faya. And they all point to like totally disparate different influences, right? They talk about Travis Parker, they talk about Scott Ashton from The Stooges, they talk about Karen Carpenter, they talk about Sheila E. So it's kind of beautiful to see that like it wasn't just a linear progression, but each new generation just picks and chooses the things they like that inspire them. Yeah, which is totally true. I mean, that like, and that was kind of when I, so I was born in 90, so I kind of grew up in that, like, I mean, I was coming of age in that late 90s, early 2000s, which was really that pop punk explosion, like my brother's friends would all be into that. And there is, I had it marked the top five pop punk drummers by Marco DeSantis in here, which they're who you'd expect, but you like Trey Cool, Elon Rubin, which he's really continued and kept going. But the drummers became so, like you said, technically proficient, which I never really put together or gave it, I guess, I just you just kind of get used to it. But these guys are monster drummers. And they had the huge Orange County drum sets, a lot of them would. There was other brands, DW and all that stuff, everyone would use different stuff. But I always got kind of from Travis Barker, in particular, such a marching drummer feel with him because he's a celebrity drummer, obviously. I mean, he's like on the Kardashians. But what a great drummer. Like what I love about him is that like he, no one plays drums like Travis Barker, but he still comes across as like this technical monster. A lot of it is like style and flair as well. Like it's a he does this balancing act that I've never seen anybody do anywhere near as well as he does. Like I have so much respect for the way that got plays drums. Yeah, I feel like he's he's the real deal kind of drummer. And I guess it just it makes me think too that just like, Phil's got a lot more intricate, there was more and also just like then that 90s, 2000s, really 2000s, you know, to through through now, recording got so much more high quality and just like more production with these pop punk bands like Green Day and stuff. It's different than how things maybe used to be recorded on like, you know, some cheap cassette recorder and then get distributed. I mean, these are major label artists, which makes drummers sound even better, you know. Yeah, I actually I was in the band in the 90s. I played drums for a band in the 90s. That was briefly signed to Joey Cape's record label, Joey Cape's the lead singer from Lagwagon. Okay, yeah. And he produced our record, which eventually got sold to A&M records. And that's a whole other story. But he may he produced the record, but the engineer of the record was Ryan Green. And Ryan Green is the guy who's seen as having created the fat sound, the fat record sound. Okay, yeah. And he, you know, there was a lot of attention paid to detail. It was no longer about two mics in the room. Well, let's just see how you do, lads. It's that that's gone in the punk rock of the 90s. I mean, it still exists, obviously, bands were still recording that way. But for pop punk, it was way more polished, a lot more separation and a lot more attention to detail than what people assumed was punk rock prior to that. And it just creates a whole new sound. Yeah. And I mean, the fat record stuff and the drive through records where you'd get these compilation CDs that would have like a bunch of different bands on them, which I mean, that's a bygone era. Like you don't have the opportunity now to have the like, you know, the promo disc or whatever that has all these different pop punk bands, which I do think, you know, and it sounds like I'm sure people who like, like I always liked kind of heavier stuff where it sort of got more into it got a little softer. Let's be real. Some of it was just nothing wrong with that. It went it targeted a different audience, which I'm sure some of the hardcore punk guys of the 80s and 90s probably heard some of these bands getting the the moniker punk and had some things to say about that, you know, drummer wise. What's your thoughts on that? The difference of like intensity from beginning to 90s, 2000s now? I'm listening. I'm I'm a very accepting person when it seems like expressing themself and like, I'm not going to tell you that, you know, for me, the idea of rules and punk rock is a little bit laughable, right? Because it goes against the core conceit of like, do whatever you want, you know, anarchy, freedom, you don't don't listen to the man, play like this, dress like this, think like this, you know, like, yeah, that's true. Those things are that's just human nature, you know, groups are going to form, clicks are going to form, directions and similar thoughts are going to form. But overall, man, like if you're a musician, you want to make art, if you're a painter, if you're a writer, do whatever feels good and let other people figure out how to categorize you. That's true. That's true. Because the whole and I think the term pop punk, having pop in the name really does encompass those mxpx, some 41 good Charlotte kind of bands where it is pop, but it has that punk, you know, side to it where it's it's it's that's I guess you're right, the beautiful thing about punk is is you can play whatever you want. And that's I mean, any artist playing anything doing anything can do whatever they want. It's just a matter of setting the appropriate expectations for how big the audience is. Yeah, that you're potentially going to reach. But like, look, with pop punk, I know it got branded and I know it went mainstream and I know that people got tired of hearing certain Green Day or Blink 20 to two songs or couldn't believe the bands like some 40, some 41 or a good Charlotte could headline the warp tour and play to 40,000 people a night and like, maybe some of that sour grapes, maybe some of that feels like it betrayed where punk rock came from and that it had gone to mainstream, all valid arguments and perspectives. But let's stop for a second and remember just how poppy the 1970s Brit punk bands were like, look at Generation X. Yeah, I loved them specifically because they had pop hooks in their punk songs, right? New York bands out of CBGB for grimy and gritty and everybody wants to talk about the bathroom. But the fact of the matter is they wrote incredible pop hooks and bands like Blondie and Talking Heads and even the Ramones were trying to get on the radio. So like trying to divorce that those ideas to me personally, my personal perspective is a little weird. I mean, when I came in, yes, it was the dead Kennedys. Yes, it was Black Flag love DOA love minor threat. There are a bunch of hardcore bands that I can still listen to to this day. But at the end of the day, the bands that stuck I stuck with were like bands like Descendants. When pop punk came around, I was honestly happy about it. Yeah, all the energy and and snarl and snottingness of punk rock but unabashed pop hooks and that I still to this day personally don't see how that's bad. Yeah. Yeah. And it just it kind of there's certain pop punk songs that make you feel good. And there's like there's just a feel to them that's very, very happy. And it is different. There's there's punk and jazz and metal. There's so many categories under the umbrella of punk or metal or jazz where you talk to people who are passionate about it and they can really break it down and say, no, that's skate punk or that's this kind of punk where you get you can find you can find what you like, you know, just just keep digging a little bit. So more drum related stuff as opposed to punk in, you know, in general, let's talk about drum sets and setups throughout the the eras because because going to what we said a little bit ago about pop punk in the let's say the 2000s very, very just high end drum sets of lots of symbols. I mean, I'm talking about again, pop punk. I know there's so many categories, but yeah, how else did you see drum sets evolve from from the beginning of of when proto punk? Well, I mean, those were rock drum sets in the 60s and 70s, right? They were a product of their time. So you might have had a few extra toms, a few extra symbols, the setups might have been a little different. You know, ride symbols and crash symbols slanted a little bit for ease of play versus where it starts to get stylistically flat in the late 70s, right? Yes. I think, you know, I just wrote an essay for the website pop matters about another thread that I found in the book, which was the secret sauce for punk regenerating generation after generation year after year. Like right now, as we're talking, I have great faith that five punk bands are forming somewhere in the world, right? The secret to that is a low barrier of entry. But in people's experience that I've spoken to and that I've read about and I've watched over the years is similar to my own. I got into punk rock, I got into drumming, and I wanted to start a band two days later. I didn't want to spend two years in my bedroom taking lessons, doing rudiments and watching YouTube videos. If that's what you want to do, that's great. That's like, again, that's your approach. My approach was conning my parents into buying me a drum set, which was a sparkle red CB 700 kit. Nice. But it was only a kick snare and rack tom and a high hat and a crash. So I had the left side of a drum set. I did not have the right side of a drum set. But like I had a band two days later with my friends, we were terrible. But like we had a band name before my bass player had a bass. That low barrier of entry anybody can do it. I want to be in a band and I don't have to be concerned right now about whether or not I want to be Neil Pert. And that can come later. You can be Neil Pert later or attempt to do that and put that time and energy in. But it's just joining that low barrier of entry is incredibly important. What goes with that from a gear perspective is people will play on whatever they have. So Lynn Perco trull from the Rex, she gets invited to join this all female hardcore band and Reno. She's never played drums before. They want her to be the drummer. She doesn't have drums. The first few practices, she literally flipped over trash cans and they played music. Wow. Wow. Yeah. That's great. Rats Gaby's from The Damned. In the interview I did with him and I was very lucky to get to talk to him because he's a hero of mine. I love The Damned. He talks about really getting in the Sandy Nelson and really getting in again. Gene Krupa keeps coming up. Buddy Rich is mentioned in a lot of the essays and interviews that we did in this book. He talks about wanting to be a drummer in the late sixties as a kid and not being able to get lessons or a drum kit because it wasn't readily accessible. So he's playing literally on pots and plans and or on pillows along to his favorite songs on the radio. Where there's a will, there's a way. So I think in early punk rock people aren't nearly as precious about gear. So I can't really like point to a brand. No, that's a good answer. Yeah. I think you use what you have at your disposal. And obviously plenty of people had full drum sets and cymbals and, you know, it wasn't all trash cans and pots and pans and pillows. Those are funny things to talk about. But again, as things progress, certain brands start to pop up. I mean, by the 90s, you've got DW was a really big one, obviously, which you mentioned previously. Another one is Pork Pie. I was very briefly sponsored by Pork Pie when I was playing in a band. And those are like artisanal, handmade, handcrafted drums. And I was totally blown away when I saw just how much love went into making those drums. And the sound is incredible, right? So now you've got these like world class drums with drummers who are starting to embrace technical ability in a way that punk may have not embraced so fully before. And they're playing cannons, right? And so I think that also adds to the prominence of drumming throughout the 90s as things progress. So as punk rock progresses from its like primordial basic garage rock roots and gets mainstream acceptance and gets a wider audience, you also see the gear progress, right? And and then you end up with every punk drummer's got a zilch and endorsement in the 90s. And, you know, they're off to the races because now they're the rock stars. Yeah, they're at warp tour with their their their Pork Pie or Orange County. And a Pork Pie kid has always been a dream like a real deal. Like the little squealers are awesome, but like a real deal Pork Pie made by, you know, Bill from Pork Pie. I there's a lot of parallels to that. I think too, there was an episode Gil Sharon did about the history of reggae drumming, where those early reggae guys were playing anything that they had flipped over, do the one drop kind of thing. And it's it's similar to that where but but you got to fight that that urge of like, there's that story of punk drummers, like maybe punk musicians aren't as talented as pro drummers or whatever, which isn't true. I mean, I think that that people though are like you said, the barrier of entry where I can just hop on and start playing punk, it's harder to play a King Crimson song or something. Because you can just do that. You can do the forbidden beat, as we're saying, and then and just kind of jam with your friends. It's just it's fun. Listen, you know, I mean, I always say the kind of drummer I was self taught for on the floor. I mean, I'm basically the kind of drummer just counts to four over and over. I'm not technically very versatile, which limited my my horizons as a professional drummer, quote unquote, professional drummer. Sure. But you know, Ratscabee says something really interesting about that in the interview I did with him, which is I asked him, you know, do you see any parallel to the punk of the 70s that you came up in with the dammed and what's happening now? And he's like, no, they're not similar things anymore, right? Because it was a socio political and cultural movement as much as it was a music movement. The music was an expression of young people being frustrated with the economy and their prospects and their culture in England at the time. And saying very much for 70s New York. So, you know, he says in the end he says in my interview, they they they gave us nothing. So we gave it back to them by the bucket load, right? Which is a beautiful thing to say. And then I was talking to him about musicality. And he said, look, it is unbelievable what drummers are doing now. Again, he says I was self taught. I was playing single stroke because all I was hitting was a pillow with, you know, like with spoons and like a spatula. So all I can really do is single stroke, right? Yeah. That starts to shape his particular style and has a profound impact on the drummers that follow after him, right? And so the limitations have a way of also creating the style as much as technical proficiency and doing your rudiments and taking lessons and being versatile and different kinds of drumming also has a way of shaping different styles. But he finishes by saying, and this is just an interesting observation, whether you believe it or not, or if you agree with it or not, he's like, the interesting thing about the super technically proficient drummers is I go to one club and I see that person playing like that. And I go, oh my God, that drummer is incredible, which is valid. They're incredible. They put the work in. They know what they're doing. They're monsters. He's like, then you go to the next club and that drummer is just as technically proficient as the last club. And he talks about going to a few clubs and he's like, there's something to be said for being dumb, right? For the limitations force you to take risks that you don't have the technical skill to reach. And it comes out sounding totally original and unlike anything that comes before it. And I just thought that was a beautiful way to sum up an early approach to punk rock drumming. And when we're talking about the foundation, it just is sort of really hit the nail on the head for me. Yeah, there's no, I guess the beauty of punk is there's no right or wrong, but that is so true of like, I don't know if everyone's getting, I mean, because if you're an ultra proficient drummer, you're probably trained, you know, you've probably taken lessons, but sometimes the best drummers, which I feel like we all have a friend who's like a guitarist who plays the drums a little. And when they play, you're like, I never would have thought of that. Yes, I never would have put the hi hat there. I never would have opened it there. And it's just neat. It's its own special thing. Just while we're going back to gear before we move on a little bit, I just remember growing up and you talked about things flattening out. There was a period where I was kind of, you know, early teens where everyone's drums and everyone's cymbals were perfectly flat and nothing was tilted. And I think some drummers, I guess Travis Barker did that a lot too. I never got comfortable really playing that way, where everything is, your Tom has no tilt to it. What's your thoughts on that? I mean, is it just me who saw that? Or was that, was that a fad or a thing that you noticed as well, the super flat everything? No, look, I think that that's certainly, you still have to be able to play your drum set. So I don't want to diminish anybody's setup. But I think it's also a fashion thing, right? Like to a degree, where I first saw it was Keith Moon. Keith Moon in the early who flat Tom's flat cymbals and it allowed him to do all that preening and holding his sticks up high and weird, right? But it was on purpose. It was to force him to make his body act differently. So you your eyes would look at him, right? He was like, he was a showman, right? Killer drummer, but also a showman. Of course. Yeah. I think then the next drummer who I would point to is like, I wish more people talked about him in terms of what a genius drummer he is. But Clem Burke from Blondie did the same thing. Flat, flat. And you know, he just looks good. He plays so well. Nobody creates beats in my eyes as well as he does. Like he's great. Yeah. So I think there is this thread of like, we're the kind of band that looks like this and setting your gear up a certain way or like, I remember, you know, I remember growing up in LA in the 80s, my brothers played in a hair metal band. And so I got to see that much early on, you know, like I'd be like 13 or 14 rotting for them at Gazaris. You know, so I got to see that whole scene. And it's like, you had to have the Mesa Boogie stack, right? You had to have the Jackson flying V. Yep. There are these stylistic things that happen in music. And I think that the flatness probably is tied to that a little bit. Yeah. Yeah. And I'm glad you said that where, of course, I'm not saying that in a way where people, what a silly setup. It's neat when people do that. And it is an aesthetic. And I remember Jack Dejanette one time, who's obviously not a punk drummer who is a jazz drummer, but he had his cymbals way up high. And I think he said, he did it because his mom said, you should put your cymbals high so people can see your face. And it's an aesthetic choice. And I think it's really neat. And it has that that flat stuff. It has a cool look. My brother played in bands that were more punk than the bands I played in. And all of his drummers would be flat. And I always thought it was cool. And and it just it helps make you pop. But all right, so it's a really great way to chew up your sticks, too, right? When you have cymbals, you add cymbals a lot, right? And then it's like, what happened to my stick? Yes. Yeah, that's hysterical. So you also, which I think is good to talk about in the book, is there's it's not just men. It's not just male drummers. There's some talk of female punk drummers. Why don't you teach a little bit about that? Because I think punk is very inviting of all people. But I'm sure female drummers face, you know, the stuff they always face in every genre of music of it being a little tougher for them to stand out and get the gig. What what what did you cover in the book about female drummers? I mean, you know, that was actually really important to me, again, leaning into this idea of perspectives. If I was just going to write a true history of punk rock drumming, there's no way around it. It would be majority white dudes, right? Like that's just the history of the genre, primarily. But that's not super interesting to me. And I don't think that's anything that I want to promote. There's things were done wrong in the past and we've evolved, right? But so I think that that I've mentioned Lynn Percot-Truel, her story was really foundational for me because like, she starts in this hardcore band, she joins another bigger hardcore band. Once that's done, the Dix SF, which were part of that dead Kennedy's hardcore scene in San Francisco, like bands like MDC and that, they kind of turn their back on hardcore altogether and start a band called Sister Double Happiness, the sort of blues and alternative rock band out of San Francisco. And then she eventually starts and is still to this day playing with a band called Imperial Teen. So she's a lifer that got her start in hardcore. So that to me is a beautiful story. I mentioned Bon Bon Wheelie from the band Girl Trouble. They're a garage rock band sort of in the vein of the Sonics or the Cramps or the Gun Club, like that vein of garage punk. She's a huge music fan going back into the 60s, early 60s, right? And she watched music go from the small dance clubs that she'd grown up with to enormous dome sort of like stadium rock. And she kind of lost interest in it. Well, she had this brother who was much younger than her. And when he comes of age, punk's hitting. Now she's older and he's getting into all these bands. And she's like, Oh my gosh, that sound that I missed is back now, which is these garage punk bands. She ends up buying basically her first drum set to play with her little brother when she's like in her late 20s. Wow. And to this day plays with this band called Girl Trouble, another fantastic story. Laura Bethita Neptuna, old friend of mine. She played in a punk band out of the South Bay in Southern California where I grew up, which is considered the cradle of hardcore punk. It's where the Black Flag Church was. SST Records was based there, Circle Jerks, Black Flag. So she played in a band called Ball Gagger that one of my bands used to play with. And she's been with a surf punk band, all female surf punk band, called the Neptunas for a very long time now. Fantastic person, nose punk rock inside and out and a really great drummer. I've also got, I mentioned Sherry Page from the band Thick. They're a young band out of New York that signed to Epitaph, I believe. Fantastic drummer. Probably has the most interesting list of influence of anybody in the book, right? Because she's the one that's mentioning Sheila E and Karen Carpenter alongside Travis Barker, right? And then one I really, Mindy Abavitz, Mindy Abavitz grew up in Florida and was a punk drummer, was really into Riot Girl. That was what inspired her in the 90s. Janet Weiss and drummers like that. And Toby Vale from Bikini Kill were big to her. She ends up moving to New York and trying to pursue a career as a drummer, as a punk alt drummer, as a Riot Girl drummer and ends up starting this magazine to that to this day is the only all female drum magazine. And it's called Tom Tom. And if you haven't checked it out, you should check it out because she would actually be a really great guest for you to have on. Yeah, Tom Tom is awesome. I mean, and they've been doing it for a long time. And it's very high quality, which I think goes a long way, you know. She is she is really impressive. Great drummer. Her writing obviously is fantastic. So I was really lucky to get her in the book. Yeah. And the one I fell really hard for was to span Faya out of Texas, which is sort of like a punk, latter day Riot Girl band. And their drummer, Fauni Diaz, is somebody who I interviewed. And I kind of found them through Lori Barbero from Babes and Toyland, who's also in the book. So I just the challenge I gave myself was to go out and find the most interesting perspectives on this genre to help people get a complete picture of it. And the way I kind of always explained it to people as I was pitching it. And I'll explain it to you this way now is imagine you go to a really cool cocktail party and there's about 50 people there. And you go from like little group to little group of three or four people around the room and you join each one of those conversations. But the only rule is we're only talking about punk rock drumming, right? That's what this book is meant to be. You get to pop in and out of different conversations. And I'm just again, just as with any of the men who are in the book from any of the different eras, I'm just thrilled that these people gave me their time and energy. Yeah, give me these perspectives because it created something that was bigger than I could have done on my own. Absolutely. It's just I love books where you can just flip to a page. If it's on your coffee table, you can just flip to it. And within a couple sentences, you're like, oh, cool. I didn't know that. All right, so you're a lifelong punk guy. What's something drum-wise that you really, like you said, you're still learning. But what's something that you is your big takeaway from this entire thing? That you really just kind of opened your eyes a little bit drumming wise? That's kind of a big question. But what was your big like just takeaway from the putting the whole book together? Well, that's a really great question. I've been interviewed quite a lot about this book and no one's ever asked me that question. So kudos to you. Thank you. I think from a like stepping back and looking at the finished product perspective, one thing I did is in all of the interviews that are scattered throughout that I conducted with people, right? I asked all of them, what would your advice be for a young drummer who's starting a punk band today? And none of them really talk about drumming, which is very interesting to me. They all talk about, do it because you love it. Don't try to sound like me or anybody else that you like, play the kind of music that's in your soul and express yourself, right? Yeah. And do it with people that you love or respect, right? And the way that Ratscabie sums it up is he's like, you can always teach somebody to play, but you can't teach them to think creatively or laterally. And at the end of the day, you have to be in a band with people that you're willing to spend nine hours a day with in the back of a van. And so they all talk about the culture. And I think that that's really important, right? Because this idea of punk being an attitude, right? More than just a music style of music or collections of styles of music is really important. The thing I learned about myself as a self-taught drummer who plays a kind of very specific rudimentary way is, I've come to the conclusion that I never joined the Church of Drumming. Although I was always a drummer, I joined the Church of Rock and Roll, meaning I wanted to be part of the energy that was blasting off the stage or out of the speakers. And my role within that happened to be drummer. But I'm not one of these people who spends a lot of time practicing in the studio or is going to make drum cover videos. It's just not the way I'm wired and the way I approach it. So I align those things because I think that I was there for the culture and this was my way to express myself and contribute and get to be part of it, if that makes sense. It makes absolute sense because I think a lot of what I hear from some of these stories is that like, oh, we need a drummer. Well, you're no longer our manager, you're now the drummer. That person, whenever that kind of, I don't know, I mean, that's a pretty typical story with punk and rock and bands. But like, you can't be like, okay, now I'm obsessed with the drums because you told me to play the drums. Like, some people are born with it where they're absolutely in love with it from day one. Some people would say, I want to get into this, the band needed a drummer. Now I do it. And I believe, I think Stuart Copeland has kind of that mentality with his drumming where he's bet he's a good drummer and he's good at other things, but he just happened to be famous for being a drummer. Aaron Sterling, I believe, I've heard him who plays with John Mayer and stuff, but just a drummer's drummer. I listened to an interview with him and he was just talking about he just happens to be best at drums. But it's exactly what you're saying. So I'm not saying that I'm best at drums. I happen to play drums. It's interesting you bring up Stuart Copeland, right? Because he's somebody that I surveyed people on social media. Before I told anybody I was making this book, I would, who's your favorite punk drummer? Drop a video. I was just kind of doing research. But Stuart Copeland is one of these guys who's on the bubble, right? Because is that punk? I don't know. The police come out of punk. Yes. But going back and listening to his playing through the lens of this book, what a monster drummer. So much technical ability, but also like who plays drums like that? So much style. Like really, I mean, that guy is really something else. Yeah. All right, Steve. So as we're getting kind of close to the end here, tell us about you, other works you've done, all that good stuff. Thanks. I played in a band called Ride El High that was signed to my records and then eventually AM AM records in the 90s. And we were sort of like a in the Weezer vein. Okay. And then I joined a band called ZAR TSAR and it was more of like a glam punk band out of the Silver Lake music scene in Los Angeles in the late 90s. We made a record with Rob Cavallo and it was released on Hollywood Records. And then we made a second record that was eventually released on TVT. Those were if you've heard of anything I played on, those are the ones that have the best chance, but I can tell you based on our record sales that it's cool if you've not heard of me playing drums for these bands. But it all my and I'm kind of a part-time drummer now. Like I play in a band called The Brothers Steve, but it's sort of a 60s, 70s power pop band. We do it for fun. We've released a couple of records. We don't really play a lot of shows. I do that with old friends. So if you want to check out some straight up 60s, 70s power pop, that's the kind of music we play. But all of my real creative energy these days is in writing. And I wrote a series of crime fiction novels based on a punk rock singer who becomes a private investigator in Hermosa Beach, which is where I grew up in Southern California. And I wrote three books about that. The first one's called Bad Citizen Corporation. So he's a punk singer and a PI putting my loves together. And then I wrote, I co-edited two essay collections about power pop, which is a genre I really love. And that are hotly debated genres just like punk. People like to argue about what the definition of it is. But you know, bands like 2020, shoes, Fountains of Wayne, Teenage Fan Club, basically people who like continue to love the Beatles throughout the decades. We did two books like that. And then the most recent one is Forbidden Beat, which I did on my own. And I am currently putting together a book proposal for my next book. And if the publisher says yes, then I'll be off to the races. That's awesome. Well, congratulations. I mean, it's hard, drumming, writing, anything you do creative, it takes, it's a lot of it's a labor of love for a long time and just takes a lot of work to put together. So do you want to tell people where they can find your books? What's the best place to find you to check everything out? Yeah, I mean, if you guys are on social media, I'm SW Loudon at Twitter and I'm also SW Loudon at Instagram. Those are probably the easiest places to see what I'm all about and contact me. The books for sale everywhere, it's distributed, it's published by Rare Bird Books. You know, so it's on Amazon, it's Barnes & Noble, all the places you would normally buy books. Yesterday was Independent Bookstore Day in the US. So that's April 30th. I don't know when this is going to occur. But I just always push people to check out bookshop.org because that's a good way to buy my books or anybody else's books and they match you with the nearest local Independent Bookstore. So you get the book, but you also support a local Independent Bookstore. If you're in publishing, local Independent Bookstores who stock and hand sell and recommend your book are incredibly important to new authors and the ecosystem. So I always push people to bookshop.org. Awesome, Steve. Well, I appreciate you taking the time to be here. And Steve is kind enough to join me for a Patreon bonus episode this week where we're going to talk about his conversation and interview with the very famous and huge, one of the biggest punk drummers in the world, Trey Kool, who has had a very long background and he's seen a lot of the evolution of this. And your conversation with him was really cool in the book. So if you want to hear that, go to drumhistorypodcast.com, click the Patreon link somewhere on the top there, and you can check it out. But Steve, thank you so much for taking the time to be here. My friend, it's been great to meet you and I appreciate you sending the book to me to read and I loved every minute of it. Oh man, thank you so much for having me on. I've been listening to the podcast. It's a really great show. So congratulations and thank you for having me.