 Thinking is an art form and when you have specific techniques to use it and make always nice to use this and then break it also, you know, and then play with it. Stephanie Palomino is my guest on this episode of Inside Ideas, brought to you by 1.5 Media and Innovators Magazine. Stephanie is one of Europe's leading female mobile pioneers. She co-founded her first company, the Mobile Social Network, Aka Aki, I'm not even sure if I'm saying that right in 2006. It went on to be named the best mobile social network in the 13th annual Webby Awards. In 2015, she co-founded Red Lab, a boutique consultancy base between Berlin and Munich and Barcelona, which supports clients in their interactive smart digital events and communications. Stephanie's work has been covered by media outlets like CNN, The Times, TechCrunch, and France too. On the side, a special note, she teaches Tai Chi when she's in India at the Ashram. And you can see the nice Tai Chi signed and writing behind her. So it's a positive background for those of you who are watching the video. That is, Stephanie, welcome to the podcast. It's so good that you're here. Thank you so much for having me, Mark. Thank you. You're most welcome. I'm excited too. And you know, just for our listeners, our paths have crossed and we've kind of known each other one way or the other for quite some time, not only M-Love, but future I.O. and Internet and many other probably paths have crossed over the years for different events that we do. And I'm glad that we can kind of have the time now in a podcast form to have a deep dive and have a discussion. You've been doing this work on for quite some time. And I want to know, were you prepared for all this craziness that we just are still going through, I guess? Did it help you or were you prepared for the humans of new work? Were you prepared for the digital transition? And how are you? How have you been? How have you weathered this crazy time? I mean, I, for myself, I was very lucky because I'm introvert and my business is mostly basically also making workshops, a lot of workshops, interact with a lot of people and traveling a lot. And through, yeah, those corona times I figured I don't like to travel and I don't like to see so many people. And for me it was really, yeah, perfect actually to have a lot of exchange with people but having this digital layer in between. So this gives me as an introvert a lot of security and just like, you know, I can flip it off and then it's gone, you know, everyone is gone and this is extremely good for me. So I detoxed a lot. I started making intensively sports. I lost a lot of weight. I could move with my husband to Barcelona for quite some time. And we actually are in total quarantine since March last year. So we really said, okay, let's just really decide for ourselves, we want to have maximum of security. And so yeah, so we said, okay, first lockdown we did alone. And then we said, okay, maybe we have the chance to take care of his parents here in Spain, because for them a bit hard, you know, and so we said, okay, let's pack our stuff. And so the car drove the whole way through to Barcelona and now we're here in my great ma, it's a little beach town here at the coast in the Costa Brava. And yeah, it's a dream come true. I was jogging in the morning at the water and I'm looking now out of the window when I talk to you and see the trees from a park. And then I only see concrete. Yeah, so I'm, I'm perfectly good here and for me was the transition really smoothly and I try to give this positive vibe also to everyone in our team. And I think that's, it's more the human spirit is not used to this we are having so many desires and helping them to go through this time be shared up and be grateful for this opportunity to look more inwards this was more the main task on hand. Well, I think you've done very well and congratulations on that move that probably couldn't pick a more beautiful place to do it in a better time. So the lockdown vacation almost so to say but it sounds like it's been a nice time. Yeah, it is a very nice time and of course we had all our challenges and but I really love to see how much we can do digital and so we transitioned basically the whole business into digital workshops and digital events. And we found amazing formats that we can co create collaborate with others and it's really a lot of fun and of course it's for people first step we're very exhausting, you know, and they miss the human interaction a lot they miss the physical the physical interaction but with the time when they get used to it, the human spirit is so easy to adapt right and now after a year, people really see okay. Wow I can save so much time traveling. Wow I can do something for the environment you know all this like, like flights around the world. And it's also awesome for opportunity for companies you know to really say hey let's use this opportunity to also like get a bit more efficient and look what's really what matters most and I mean it's a challenge for like, especially extra words especially networking people will lift actually up to the energy of others and for them, especially hard and really important to keep also the empathy up for this kind of people yeah. I totally agree. There was a couple other things like you're one of the top 50 German creatives. According to business punk magazine you did an author of the lean back perspective. You just came out with a fabulous game as the art director of logic iOS game, the Queen rule game rules game and I just tell you so I normally don't play games because I have an addictive personality and I got the game because I knew we would be speaking and I wanted to support you but I also wanted to take a look into it and I'm kind of mad at you because you've just tapped into all my addictive personality and I finished it I had to finish all the levels which it probably is meant to be done over weeks month and just that at your leisure. And I just don't have that personality but you do so many beautiful wonder things wonderful things and then I guess what one last thing is I guess that's fitting for your introvert personality. It's a Socrates Socrates dialogues a Socratic dialogues every Thursday at three o'clock on clubhouse, which I think as probably good digital layer for introverts to kind of they can be quiet if they want to or they can have a view but it's also gives you this nice distance. So I see a lot of things could you tell me about two things the lean back perspective, and also the launch of the game kind of how is that going how did that develop is that another project that came through red lab or is that something that you guys came up with yourself. Wow okay so let's start with the book, then let's go to the game and then talk about the dialogue in the end okay so. So years ago after like a very interesting year of a lot of work, my husband and I we decided hey, let's take a time off so we were like, I don't know if you ever had that moment when you in April know in November, you will be totally screwed, you know, and you will know. Okay, so much things to do and November, you have to do something November will be good for you and we had that moment and in this second we decided to do some meditation passes together. And I think 2011 or 12 or something like this and issue or 13 something around that and we had a nice teacher and he recommended us national and in India and he said this would be the best place for meditation also learning yoga. You guys, you travel a lot. It's great to have a 30 minutes practice go to India and my husband and I we like to do things 100%. So it's okay, we go to India let's do two months. We take all the classes and we can do yoga on our own we travel around the world making yoga sessions here and there for ourselves. Then we forgot I forgot it actually and I think around October I was pretty worked out you know I was like well worked up. I was like, oh my God I need to break I need to spa you know I was like where is the four star five star hotel where I can just check in. It's over. And then my husband reminded me no no we booked a like a room in this ashram and could you not remember they even said maybe you have to sleep on the floor and a lot of two things are not allowed and it will be not so comfortable at all and I was I was crying actually. And so we were in the in the ashram for two months and there I met my teacher. I figured I don't like yoga. I'm a techie person. And there we met a very wonderful lady called a man that's a guru and an ashram in India and she is a wonderful leader and stands for leadership with compassion. She has a beautiful book actually also the colors of the rainbow leadership of compassion from one of her swamis and he wrote actually this book where she's basically the case study. And he he was beautiful intro also where he was like referencing to the big leaders in this world and what he learned in business books he was reading also in the research phase. He was a very funny character. And I was reading this book and then also the book of Cheryl Sandbrook lean in and the ashram and they were getting a little angry about I was thinking wow this is exactly the zero compassion it's really about how women should like lean in more like and I really failed a lot of my life because I lean in too much totally in it you know living for dying for it and then falling apart basically. And then also with the practice of Tai Chi I wondered is not this lean in lean out the perfect balance. You need to lean back to develop the strategy and you need to lean in actually to execute. But the balance and the movement between those both things. This can create really a perfect balance in business. And that was basically the birth moment of the idea of the book. We reviewed 42 people for participation here because we didn't want to have a single view that was also something I didn't appreciate so much lean in was just a single view on the world and we said OK how we can get a diversity. How we can see this and when it's female leadership I want to have freelance and I want to have women in high positions coaches artists, and we had also one person was transitioning from actually a female to male. And we were doing the writing of the book actually that was also very very cool. And yes we had, and actually what was in the end resonated with all of us was really this like synchronizing with your inner self. So when you basically allow yourself to be that person and don't be the person others are expecting from you you can have this lean back perspective what can bring you to this. Yeah, moment of strength for yourself. I definitely want to get a copy and I'm sorry I didn't know about it didn't see you carrying it around or at any event so, but I want you to sign the copy for me so I need to get it next time we see each other. I'll either buy it and bring it and you signed it or, or you bring one and I'll buy it off you. I'm very bad and promoting myself. That's really bad. I was writing a book. I was not writing and you were writing it all together and actually the inspiration was coming from the guru so it's like even more, not my book cannot at all. I think that's that really sums up how you are as well. You were you were then going to tell us about the new game that you've got me addicted on but I'm already detoxing myself from it so. Yeah, so the games are in my life since a long time so in the Akaaki times actually, we started also a game project and then Akaaki was funded very good and we were creating actually a social network. A mobile social network location based and there was this kind of gaming thing on Facebook was starting off and we thought okay how we can create also a game layer over the world and so the idea of the games name was lift loft. Lift your loft. You see Akaaki lift loft I kind of have a thing for stuff like that and and it was really about collecting items basically and you could just grow your house with those items and you could play with people. You have met nearby and it was kind of a funny thing and it was completely made out of paper, by the way. And the idea is a basic idea of the gamification was coming from my husband so I in this times hired him from the UK actually I stole him from someone I know very well. He was head of mobile by rumble and was also location based service I don't know if you know Andrew Scott. Yeah, I do. Yeah, so I stole my husband from Andrew Scott and. And I hired him basically as my CTO. And so he had this experience out of the game worlds he was by game love before, and then by rumble and since in mobile since I think 2009 he started developing the first thing was the first Nokia's. And during the years we were developing a couple of game concepts. We also made another game called got brothers this was this one actually it was it's a, it's also funny music game. Now I don't tell you know I don't want to make you addicted actually it's kind of. So let it looks as a name. So it's an it's another one and this was now basically two years ago Gabriel was coming up with this idea of numbers and stretching numbers. So the first name of the game was stretchy numbers. For two years, it's really modified his story and we come up with this idea to have this like kind of Queen, and the Queen is ruling. And one was also Gabriel's idea wasn't my idea and I like this he's a very feminist stick man and so we have in the game queen and the king but the king is always dragging along you know he always comes along which is she's the leading character. And then we have the evil witch and they are they will face off basically. And it's always about who makes the smarter moves, basically and it's, it has some genetically some. Yeah, like ideas like like a chess game here and there, because you have specific moves you can do with specific characters. Yeah, it's just like try an error also it's about reminding yourself what I have done already which moves I have tried but I think you better can describe it now after you played also 158 levels. Maybe I asked you what what is something you enjoyed about the game. I mean, I mean, just a visually stunning that it was, you know, the characters were made out of way but what is it what is it called in German that the type of way you use. Yes, it's female. It's female. I mean I was growing up with female. My mom was still a stuff out when I was tiny and and Larissa is the artist who produced all this Larissa Hansig and she is amazing character designer and I really literally research the whole world. I was thinking okay be hands come along and I want to have the best character designer and I really loved what she is doing so much and I love you know between digital and physical and just this very unique style she has brought both those worlds together. I just love it I mean it was so and then there is the beautiful music you know kind of very soothing but also engaging throughout and just visually stunning so I'm a big chess fan and so it's also has this very chessy type of a feel to it. I could go on and on but then I don't want to be a spoiler because I think I do others will get sucked in as well and want to get to the end but there is an evil queen, but it's very big surprise at the end what the evil queen does because it's very much. It's cool you need to get to the end and check it out what she what she does so it's not all that evil, but it's just a nice brain teaser it's a nice way to kind of get into as well like stretching these numbers and kind of the puzzling and some respects. I thought also for kids you know it's nice to learn that basically numbers stays for can stay for space you know because when you learn to stretch the numbers you know okay. It's just okay counting the moves but it's also what how much space I'm occupying and that can give you a kind of a physical touch to an abstract world of numbers. And I'm I love numbers I'm since I'm a kid I'm I'm always was fascinated and I'm one of my first in my number six I really wanted to calculate us so badly. And when I thought okay it's a little bit like a device from a science fiction movie this was the other thing but I loved all the buttons like crazy I love to push buttons. The calculator was like a dream come true he could do all of it you know numbers buttons, science fiction, all of it. And for me, I really thought with the game. It's nice that there are some emergence you know that numbers gives us like emergence that there's something in themselves. You know we we made a lot of such levels by just with algorithms, and then we played them and then we were categorizing them how difficult the game were the level were, but also game. Gable is able to make those levels. So that was impressing me the most part when the husband that he was inventing some of the levels and the most difficult ones he did in his brain basically and I'm like, Yeah, that's amazing. It's so nice to hear that you guys did it together and it's something that you came up with and, and develop. It definitely has that feeling it has a feeling of love a good team has a feeling of something where a lot of thought went into it's not just something that someone came to you. It was really enjoyable to see your agency and just said hey would like to do a game and then this is how we do it I know they would get that same love but it just has a different feeling to it and and it was really enjoyable and that I mean even just just the name and the visuals that I saw before I downloaded I was like, I got I got to try this not just because we're going to have the podcast but I just knew I've got to try it and did it and so I really thank you guys for that it was it was good one. It reminds me, or not necessarily reminds me but I think people who like Sudoku would really like this. People who like chess would really like it people who, you know, do other type of connection games. Were they connect different areas together to make a path work or to make something solvable. I think they would like this because, like you said it really involves the numbers and I'm also a numbers person I like that and it gives you it almost trains your brain to to view the world in a different way as well, which which is nice I really liked it a lot so but enough about my addiction to that now I really unless you have something else to tell me about that I'd really like to hear about the Socratic Dialogues on Clubhouse and I actually snuck by that a couple times myself. So, Socratic Dialogues man that's, I mean it's okay so crates of course when he was helping a lot to looking philosophically at specific questions or how people should like communicate but the methodology we use is actually from David boom. And he was writing a super nice book about it I have to look it up again I'm always so bad with name dropping. Often I say it even in the dialogue and then, but I'm without notes I'm always dying so but David boom is actually was a philosopher and also a quantum physician. And he was suffering mostly by the too much growing expertise into one field that people were starting having even their own language and specific fields. It's more and more complicated that people were having. Yeah, good conversations about a topic. And this multi distributed multidisciplinary approach that people over different disciplines are coming together having a dialogue over a topic that's something he wanted to cultivate. In Harvard this is used as a methodology quite often. So I had a couple of people I encountered were in Harvard and they said I dialogue I had in Harvard that's something we do there all the time. I said oh great. Good for you. And for me it's always it's like about teaching people the art of listening. And so the art of thinking together by reaching really new perspectives. And so that actually a lot much more creativity can can come out. And we do a lot of design thinking workshops and it's just this. I tried to bring this to every workshop and say hey guys okay it's great. The idea you just have that in this moment, but then give it a pass. Just give it some room that other people can let something grow around it. And this is not in our human nature you know we just like bomb it then everything like boom boom boom one's like, give it like a break. And now this is this is something I really enjoy and moderating this dialogues by using a very specific structure because I mean thinking is an art form. And then you have specific techniques to use it and make always nice to use this and then break it also, you know, and then play with it. And in the moment with the dialogues on platform we are playing you know we are trying to see okay how we can stretch the format what we can do differently. We frequently iterate on it discuss afterwards okay what was working out what could be better and so it's an evolving methodology we try for the clubhouse thing and we have often very very interesting listeners and participants. So yeah it's something I'm it's really my hobby I enjoy a lot and it makes me think you know it makes me think and makes me listen and wondering you know. Can you tell me a little bit more about your your thoughts of how you feel about clubhouse where the future of clubhouse is going. And there there's some things right now one it's really stuck to ISO iPhones or ISO devices that are. I think it's 13.0 firmware above so some older versions can't do it it's not yet on Android, or Google availability to get on to it, but also there's no like a recorded version of it and it's not that easy to kind of share it with other social communities there's a way to share the link on Twitter and other things but it's kind of a screenshot type of a feeling that the way on one platform you're sharing it to get people on to clubhouse so it's like, you can give them a screenshot of the room, but not really like you know, or something to tell them what happened in the room or to kind of recap that. So I'd love to kind of get your ideas and your thoughts and feelings on that and and who's it for houses evolving and what kind of your general thoughts around that. When I was also in co invented 2006 the social network and I'm so like really obsessed with this topic you know so when clubhouse was coming out I was really, like, really excited and I think I was only so excited. The same amount about actually, yeah, seeing my space the first time and then actually a car key when we build a car key was the same excited about this and I was thinking wow. This is kind of like really also my favorite channel because it's really about the voice you can focus about only the voice and I often get confused with the picture. And I don't want to even see myself then I would love only to just focus on this voice and play with it and in clubhouse you have this perfect limitation of this being in the moment and that also serendipity is going around so I'm like a like a room cruiser you know I'm loving to just checking out what's happening just in this moment I don't like to schedule I'm for for others rooms so only I don't have to take care of my own ones but the rest I'm just hanging I'm coming in just checking out participate or not. And I love this kind of serendipity is going on. And I mean of course for the man when you have done a social network in your life, you have I think a big heart for the people by clubhouse because to launch a social network is a nightmare. It's just, especially when it gets traction with your servers. I'm really praying for the skies and that they can sleep here and there, and that they limited only two to one. The starting device in the beginning is amazingly clever is super important. Also one where they feel that they could have like a first yeah playground of the ideal users, mostly people most probably for the beginning they also were known it was easy for them to build traction. I have 100% understanding of this and I can understand people who say oh it's in the Android users, but yeah it will all come one day, but just let them naturally grow and in the capacities they have. I mean they got now tons of investment but this can also be a trap sometimes. Yeah, organic growth is really important and they they have to figure it out a step by step and I would not. Yeah, put them more under pressure they have already you know it's just will happen. I think that they did a wonderful job by purposefully designing a space where a new unique experience as possible. And this is the reason I was so excited because whoa, nobody was coming up with this this is this moment we think oh my god why no one was coming up with this before it's like so obvious and so clever but it was not there. And I love this moment I love that I was like wow, I would love to meet them and say well thank you so much that's just a wonderful job and don't start with recording stuff. It's just, it's really fantastic you know they're giving people a space to talk and just don't have things there forever we have a podcast for staying there forever you know it's not a competition podcast it's just totally different. It's, of course for the target group prefers listening the for the listening sound people I think they are more attracted to that. But also totally Instagram is you know how many Instagram is on clubhouse I think they're happy that they finally have a voice, you know, give a voice to all this pictures then just forget the pictures for why it's awesome. Obviously, we can tell that it's a wakes something in you that ties back to your old social media network that you you did. Is there anything that you can share with us about that experience or what it was and how how it and maybe what happened with that whole experience because I think it's a very personal journey but it's also I think you tell me if I'm wrong played a lot into the game that you just launched it played a lot into pretty much anything that you do in the digital environment because you're always trying to, what's the future that they talk can I create something this is something that I that we're talking about a working on for a while. How do we make these new things emerge and think about those futures. Yeah, even for us I think it was a wild time we were back in Berlin. We were studying at the University of Arts communication and I had strategy innovation and movie making as my main subjects. And this kind of like originally always wanted to be a movie director. This was a big dream you know I wanted to be a movie director I wanted to create like stories you know I wanted to like tell stories and I was obsessed with movies my my mom was like working in the video club when I was like three years old. And so I was just a lot of time around with video tapes. I saw so many stuff my, my kindergarten teacher, my mom had to come into kindergarten and they said I was pushing people to play with me battle star galactica and Star Wars. I was totally obsessed with science fiction and kind of this like doing a startup was making a couple of those dreams come true in once you know it's just creating even a universe you know it's just like. Yeah, it was super, super exciting and the first treatment for the app. I was, I was writing so. Gabriel Iran my my co founder he had actually the technology idea he come up with this oh let's turn the Bluetooth on and you can see other people. Later on we did it then with GPS and iPhone or whatever but that was the basement of like wow what it would be when you could see the interest of the people nearby when you could have like a matchmaking nearby system. And it was a dream you know the dream was that I might be all of put the movies. I'm big Tom weights fan I love to play table football and I was always thinking, you know you knew in the city, where you find that people you know it's just. It was a dream and then in the end what happened that yeah a lot of gay people met in the parks for our app, I would say that was happening was also cool, but it was just. We were starting with something and then people used it for something and it was just a right you know because in this moment when we kicked it off the iPhone was not there and so it was a broken broken ecosystem. And so you try to explain people what is an application software application, and how you download it and how you can find the app then afterwards again and all this stuff and then the iPhone was coming out and everything changed and it wasn't super exciting time we were traveling around the world pitching the app, meeting fascinating people, and then it happened that we presented the app in the mobile peer awards I think it was in 2009. This was actually my last happy moment for this story because afterwards someone was come approached me and said wow this is a fantastic idea what you have presented there. And it was someone from Apple and they were featuring us at the next day. And we were not prepared for that. And it was really wow service on fire and we were basically yeah, we could not grow anymore because every day at actually I think around six seven o'clock it was making boom, you know, and the app was down and it was a classical total failure basically and technology perspective we had a lot of users but made them absolutely upset. And it yes man, it was a different time you know the studio thought said Twitter. All the people build on Ruby on rails had problems in mind the, yeah the communication of our mobile phone it was just much more hotter than the classical servers and crazy times. So yeah I stopped sleeping well. We tried to, yeah we built everything so we were rewriting the whole back end. And I, we brought Gabriel in from Barcelona from London in this time but it was split too late you know we were really. Just to have this moment, and when that not everything falls into place, you don't have so many second and third chances, especially when you from a German startup you know we were not funded by Silicon Valley where they say here you know that 20 million is go you know, we we had good very good funding, but we were not in the same environment than our competition you know that was sad, that was really sad when I think the same thing in the US with the same traction we would have another chance to turn it around you know, and we were not experienced enough. You know it was the first startup, and for me I learned a lot, because on the way we achieved so much they may we were winning so many awards, you mind we were in French television we were really all over the place at this time. I mean, when people were knowing me on the street it was weird and gives you this feeling of you are like super woman, you know you are like, I imagine it, I want it, I work hard for it it will happen. Until the specific moment where it's not working anymore and you run against the wall and you're like, who's who am I, by the way. And that was an amazing experience and it was interesting I felt a little bit like Phoenix you know because I was crushed when it was over you know and so I had to really redesign myself and I was so basically Gabriel then decided also after now I was basically not an aka anymore was not a CEO anymore and then he decided I become now his girlfriend. He really was eager about I will not be his girlfriend so long I'm his boss. Don't say it's Spanish person. I know he's very lovely, but he was really like the hero in the story so he said Stephanie you have to go away to three months and you have to make some digging and I really was sitting down with notebook and a book was very funny book how to be happy and I was just sitting down with a few steps or something like that, with millions of questions and I was just two months sitting down every day answering those questions. And finally it's probably a discovery period but you you had immense learning that has now shaped your life for many other things I mean, just by talking about Clubhouse a different app you know you can see how how influential that time if the beautiful thing to see your your husband was kind of in the backgrounds all along and kind of there's this thing and before we go too much more into the other questions that kind of want to ask how, how is it constantly working with the person that you love. How is that, you know, we both have friends Tim Lieberich, the business romantic and Frederick Lalu reinventing organizations we talk about this humans of new work. But that's really this business romance this liking the people you work with and doing that I come from family businesses so I know how it is to work with people that you love in it in a different way as well so but but I would like to hear from you what what does that do or how does that shape you. It is challenging, you know, obviously, man the thing is my husband when we met each other and I remember the first compliment. What really made me was when I met you the first time and we talked, I was thinking one day I want to work with you together. And I was feeling extremely appreciated because I really saw that he, not only we were best friends but he was also appreciating a lot my thoughts and as a woman that's something extremely fulfilling. If someone on your side appreciates your opinion appreciates your way of thinking likes to be challenged. Yeah, it's just very freeing you know it's just, and he's also the person I always can be 100% myself there's nothing I'm ashamed about to say or think or whatever he just gives me this 100% support as a human being and that's. It's a huge present. And, but on the other hand he's a perfectionist and he's like a hard worker and it's tough like hell you know he's much tougher than me and he's a much more harder worker than me and he know he can do this like two years working on that game you know and that's don't say but it's a mind fuck really it can kill you a normal when you're a weak person you can't go through that you have to be really strong in your mind. And always looking for yeah and in games you need perfection you need otherwise just not the diamond it has to be you know. And so it's tough to work with him, definitely. And we are very different characters, but so I'm always trying to balance this out you know. And he was also after I call Gabby and that he drove me crazy. He was in San Francisco by presenting the app and at the Apple conference to to a couple of Apple people and was very also very successful but he was like basically, I was not sleeping I was then four o'clock. I was still with him and sleeping two three hours and he was up again and he was like really I was like, Oh my God, you know, we really have to find some breaks and what changed really our life was this spiritual path we have to work together by going together every year when it was possible to the ashram. He is a very good meditator and we really needed this kind of like, yeah also common interest, what is balancing out our professional obsessions. So that's very helpful. And to find that in a relationship is very important and also have periods where you don't work together. And work life balance. Yeah, it sounds so easy so difficult but just give yourself also moments of, yeah, to tell that you're able to tell another story, you know, and it's very important. That's beautiful. By the way, I bet, I bet. Now, now it's the time to truly lean back for a while and, you know, kind of rebalance it. I mean, I mean email do this past weekend you're like I had a digital detox this weekend I do that as well. We have an I think we have another friend that's in common. We have on Winterfell. I don't know if you know her but yeah. So works and that and and her and do you want to do this wonderful or did this wonderful retreat that I spoke at and it was just a beautiful retreat that I did I did but it was a total digital detox and and then we did the Wim Hof, we got in the Wim Hof, did the Wim Hof breathing and got in the creek and it was just beautiful, but that detox that pause that separation you just need it to kind of. And I tell you it was a savior I think on that that year I'd done something like 200 and 11 events by the time I went to that retreat I spoke there so it was it was kind of like a work thing but I also participated in the retreat. I made my hide because right after that it went back in right up until lockdown time it was nothing but work and events and things and so you just really need that pause to rebalance to reset and to move forward this constant work is just the silent killer you know and and even though you're saying just a workhorse and workhorse eventually it will come back to get you. I, I haven't had too many conversations with you in depth or or or otherwise until now. So I don't even know where your stance is on sustainability environments environmental social governance, sustainable development goals Paris agreement. Can you can you kind of give me just a general overview what you do what you touch on those and what your thoughts and feelings are. This is a very interesting topic for me because we were when I cannot talk about the client but we worked on a CO2 topic. And that was really nice because we did a lot of in depth interviews about people and their motivation to really track the CO2 emission and we were and this also feels extremely good you know to work around that topics and there's a reason I love clients when they do stuff like that and we do like all the extra work for that. And it was very interesting. It was one finding was the people on the one hand they are willing to pay more for like sustainable products or like bio products and stuff like that they constantly feel it's, especially when they are not have such a high income that's more for privileged people, and they feel extremely frustrated what they can do. And so we were just really thinking about how is that when you combine basically the message of you can save money and save the planet. This was a very interesting thought and I think that marketing wise, because I think they were not using it so strongly in the end like how we were here and that's suggesting it. But I think this could be when anybody is listening out of this field something, it could be huge. It could be huge. And it is totally doable so I was like designing there some stuff and I think that could work so good. When I'm by myself I'm like 90% vegan I'm here and they're doing the cheese what's very bad when you look at the footprint from cheese it's nightmare. Cheese is a nightmare. But I learned in this whole project a lot so I don't know if you were knowing it but what do you think is the worst CO2 footprint of fries 100 gram fries or 100 gram schnitzel. 100 gram fries. That's 100 gram fries by far. It's so it's so crazy because they chemically also changed the outside layer of the fries for the frying process and then of course like it's pre processed food and etc so it's not the potato potato is not a bad one. But the fries and all the processed foods as a nightmare so. And that is amazing. Germany and data and we have it all somewhere that really interesting lists where you can find each object basically with a CO2 footprint and there you will find so many interesting information. And that could be also already something is really interesting to make much more transparent you know this could be another game one day. Yeah, I mean there's so many gamification concepts in that arena emerging and tools that just empower people in their daily lives. And that kind of turn it in use gamification to make it something enjoyable or tool that you could use every day as a transition because I mean it's it's not I mean there's a transitional period that you need in order to to to not need the game or to the tools or until you're up to that knowledge and you you're just auto but then some people need that kind of not almost entertaining or fun way or to get there to do better to to be nudged to do things and also rewarded for doing positive things so I like that. I mean, the reason I kind of want to know and I knew you, you probably have ran and ran across things in the past. And you're dangerous as you know, I do that a lot and so the big discussions on my podcast are really around innovation around the future around sustainability and the environment. And what what most people don't know, and even it's funny because we're both part of him love and future IO and different things like that we know Harold we in the Internet groups and things. But what most people in an innovation and futurism don't know is that sustainability is really the cores of it are innovation, the future, and economics that most people don't know and so when I say I'm a sustainable futurist or when I say I'm a resilient futurist. And it's not that far off because the core studies or knowledge of those items are always about innovation always about the future and always about the economic models that's working or not working for the future. You know, you know, I've even had some people say what's this tree hugger it can make a guy mark doing with these innovators in these futurists. And I'm surprised sometimes that they haven't put those two together because they go hand and foot that whole foresight modeling that whole third dimensions and the three horizons and anything. You know what sustainability is as. Yeah, and so and that brings me I mean, you I mean you could say something about that but it really brings me to the main the hardest question I have for you today. Since we are in these innovative and futurist and creative groups of four thinkers. This is the burning question WTF. What's the future, not the swear word not the thing that we've experienced but but what's the future for you what what or what does a world that works for everyone look like for you. I mean, it's, it's a very tough one it's a really, really tough one I mean when I, when I see there are in this world more and more people are like vocal who are, and I say not don't think it only in this virtual but I'm more awakened than before, you know, and so I know on the I see more and more people like experience that consume is not like fulfilling and will leave most probably a big hole after that or only the taste for more and that's not going anywhere. My heart is that as a human we, a lot of people has first experiences before they come through that point only a few don't need to experience to go to this point you know so that people are minimalistic millionaires where I think okay that was the easy one. But I, I hope that we all come to that point that we see Wow, this is have a conscience about what is the minimum I need and can have a great life and where I can share and where I can support others and stop being so greedy, you know, what I love about Corona is that this. We sit all in one boat was never ever so visible for everybody and it was just like amazing experience for everybody so whatever happens here somewhere has an effect on it. And also this experience that here in London say never have seen in this lifetime and even the lifetime before a dolphins and they saw dolphins on the coast here. So it was now obviously that yeah the human impact on Earth was also extremely visible in Corona time so that makes me hopeful because more and more people saw or got conscience about that. So for me yeah we have to find a way to. But I don't know I don't have one solution because the problem so it's such a complex problem it needs so many solutions there is not one for it and the question is what we all from our side can do for this you know what is the passion part where we in one little part can bring something forward and how we can find platforms where we can collaborate more because I feel there are so many initiatives but they are very alone a little. And they are very maybe okay the foodies with the foodies and the techies with the techies but how we can find or create more spaces where the space people what we did actually very nice event for continental. Where we brought together space tech people with agriculture tech people. And that was so great for all of them. They really said wow is also connected we never talk with people from that fields and that goes together again with the crystal credit dialogue or am love is like, we need more platforms for like inter sexual and you know what I mean sections and not sexual sections and interdisciplinary conversations can happen and. And of course funds hopefully will also more. Yeah, be excited about this kind of projects, but it's such a big question my God, of course it is no. You got the answer right. I've asked thousands of people literally thousands of people that question and everyone's answers is different, and everyone is very unique. Really can I think maybe two or three were really groundbreaking where I would say wow that's fabulous. There are a couple reasons why I want I generally want to know and believe in what you said. But just like when whether you're designing the queen rules game, or whether you're designing a social app or whether you're starting a business. You need to have a plan you need to have goals you need to write a business plan and then try to work that. In order to be a success. Same thing with the future if you don't know what the plan is or what the future looks like. The future extra can't even have some predictive models, then you're never going to reach that someone else is going to deliver the future for you someone else is going to. Your business is going to fold or someone else is going to do your business for you. So I think it's really vital that we begin asking ourselves that question we should have done it decades ago. But then we also currently look around that that at the models that our world is currently operating on whether it's the European new Green Deal or if it's the Paris agreement or the STG's. What's the global plan or what's what's our country plan and what direction are we moving on and if we push them out into the futures are they ones that work for all of us and do they go and definitely so that's kind of with my thought process on on asking you that question. I mean I looked actually into the numbers for Germany quite like intensively for the CO2 project I worked on and it was already very frustrating because the German goal I think is by like a 2000 tons. And that's really only achievable now in Corona. So in the moment you enter in an airplane and over basically and you have to be poor minus first interesting we were talking to so many people the smallest footprints were by people with very low income conscience very low income people. Retired people who had very low income and of course they could not buy and they were conscious they were gardening they were eating there and not so many processed food but it was weird you know it was really to see hey in Germany the goals we have set are absolutely not achievable. It's like, it's like people have to start now doing things completely differently and and one thing was also no one wanted to know his score. But it might not suck really bad when you think about it everything when you think you can do it about quantified cells it's bullshit no one will do anything counting actually his misbehavior. There's no nothing no motivation behind it, whatever I do it gets worse. There's no positive feedback loop happening. There are there are quite a bit of tools and there's more emerging every day and I, I mean, I don't want to take all our time together where we where we discuss on what some of the solutions are and what some of the wonderful things that are emerging I mean a report just came out. This week about from the United Nations a UNF triple C about the Paris agreement about the SDGs and how we're on how we're absolutely not on track. And I didn't it didn't look very positive. And from the report stance but in reality, there's a lot of things that we can do and one one factor that humanity doesn't get is that there's this exponential function that that many, many of us don't understand, even though we just experienced the problem which, which grew exponentially and it was a prime case of how the exponential function works and how quickly it works. And so I really think that's you know, we can get into the very positive things on on how we can solve these issues and move forward. But I really wanted to even switch and focus on another aspect I thought you know what are the top five things that you could do to stop and reverse global warming or to draw down some of the human suffering and the global grand challenges that we have in our world. For me it's I always say it's global food reform. It's number two and three is empowering women and girls number four is to rethink refrigeration. Number five is to move to a renewable transition and you know and then I go on and on. And second and third one really has to do with you you're an introvert and almost kind of a little bit shy in that respect but I see you as someone who is not only empowered woman, and a great example to other women, but also that you do very well just the queen's rules type of a game which is very, very beautiful in and of itself, but that you, you kind of tend to gravitate in your circles with other powerful women and also finding women that maybe need that empowerment or that example on how to run a business and start up how to do programming and be creative and think about the future and do those things and I truly believe that firing women and girls. More than 70% than your CO2 footprint calculations can draw down human suffering and our in our greenhouse gas emissions are global warming and the fact and many facts and some people like, what, how is empowering women and girls going to solve our problems. It is and I just want to know I mean how do you do that how, how do you deal with that what do you say and what kind of are your thoughts and feelings about that. Interesting we are very aligned so my number one is that I'm super into the vegan food movement and also sustainable food movement so I'm actually in the moment thinking we just were buying the URL VV network for vegan and vegetarian network and we the sub claim is in the moment like about, yeah, conscious food for all we were just brainstorming around that so it's just really one of my hot passion topics, you know, so how advocate people and also using community around this topic and this group was also federal and love we are like aligned on that and we we just started the thinking process around that so it's just whatever I can do there and also in my close environment but also I try to use my voice in the clubhouse I'm in a lot of vegan stuff going on I'm there. So I believe we really need to look into food and we all could reduce massively already by changing our choices by tomorrow. And really, the impact is crazy. You know, so I think that's really, really, really one of my, my, one of my favorite topics actually and the second one is a female empowerment so I'm working with a lot of female leaders, and I'm always say it's a little bit like the Robin hood methodology of taking the money from the one and give it to the others. And so I'm also dealing with this with my time so when I have when anybody is listening as a female CEO or female entrepreneur want to start something or has a problem in his career or feels uncomfortable with something just reach out to me and I'm super open for having a giving support, giving mentoring time and so I'm just mentoring a couple of female entrepreneurs. I have a lot of my friends so I try also to have this kind of like, yeah support group of, yeah when you just need also yeah someone you can just talk to who has guns through the shit right you know so I think that's very important when I do this also for male and not only for female but I try to encourage every female I met to reach out to me I want to help. Yeah, so I am, I see that the, the diversity is the power and we need more female people in creating digital worlds, it's just a two masculine words technology is just to one sided and when I started it was when the designer made a black website it was looking like for skaters you know and then I said okay, what you think who will sign up for this website. Men, you know, and then we made it green and pink and it was for everybody, you know, and it was just this like hey hundreds of men will approach you we have to be aware of that we have to protect the females in the service because we like run over and all the sensibility for both parts you know and we really need like like a diversity in all the senses we need people who are actually don't want to be she or he we need kids helping making kids products you know it's just. There's so much to do in the diversity section and I see that with how much care females are running businesses and running countries and having empathy. That's my third big topic is to empower the empathy in the business world and this is what also of course our friend of the business romantic I think is leading always to. But for me, empathy is also a way of collecting very important information, you need that information to make better choices, when you have not trained empathy you really lack of information you will make bad choices. It's really a business thing and it's can be trained and is highly highly highly highly for me important so this is the top three three I think it's for me that's great vegan food the female leadership and the empathy. That's great. That's great. The last three questions I have for you are actually for my listeners there's something to help them in their lives to empower them. The first one is if there was one message you could depart to my listeners that had a sustainable take away that has the power to change their life. What would it be your message. Take a frequent break for yourself in this times every hour stand up to something positive for you when it's only five minutes and be conscious with yourself because then you can be conscious to others. I think it's for me the most important thing. It's just really think about you the airplane thing you know the gas mask is coming down put your, put your ones on before you help the others and it's, I see a lot of people burning out in the moment, because they don't do it. They go over the edge and they think tomorrow they can recover but one day they can't and this is the rituals to establish new rituals, like making yourself a tea in the morning and then stand up, make a nice walk, give yourself a break. What should young innovators in your field or young creatives be thinking about if they're looking for ways to make a real impact. Don't look only on the best practice cases and try to be like them, like finding your own identity. I think what we, with Queen Woods, what we really wanted to achieve is like, like, looking for something fresh, you know, for the eyes. When a game industry very difficult, everyone looks the same. Everyone's copying each other. It's like being bold enough to just go for it. But this reason, for example, I love Billie Eilish, you know, I think she's just, yeah, be this unique wonderful self you are, you know, just don't. She's very sustainable too. I mean, she does a lot of advocacy around the environment. Yeah, yeah, that's great. I love that. The last thing is really, what have you experienced or learned in your professional journey so far that you would have loved to know from the start. I think really this leaning in lean back, like reaching out for help earlier, you know, as it's like I tried with all the force to do it. And not to create also environment that everyone can do it together. You know, it's just, it's very egomaniac when you think you can do it alone. And you would love to go back and shake myself and say, you can't do shit alone. How you can now think about to make everybody all the time co responsible and do it together. I love it. I love it. Stephanie, it has been absolutely fabulous. Thank you for your time. I'm so glad that you took the time to visit with me and have this discussion. And that's all I have for you unless there's something you didn't get to say that you wanted to say now's your chance but otherwise I think I'll say goodbye. Thank you so much. I enjoyed it a lot. We should do this in another space for another reason one day again. I would love to continue talking to you. It was a big pleasure. And I thank Harold here on this place for bringing us together and running this like amazing initiatives that we have chances to meet people out of our space and maybe in the same space we were not even knowing about each other. Exactly. Thank you so much and you have a wonderful day until Gabriel. Hello for me and you guys have a wonderful day there in Spain. Thank you so much and have a great evening. Bye bye.