 We're back with the breakfast and plus TV Africa. Of course, our first major conversation up next. We have a guest standing by as we discuss this all important subject. Let's quickly remind you that President Mohammed Buhari has said that Nigeria's rapid transition to renewable energy will result in significant job creation with up to 340,000 jobs created by 2030 and up to 840,000 jobs created by 2060. Now, the president said this at the leaders closed door meeting on climate change which held on the sidelines of the United Nations General Assembly. The meeting was convened rather by the Secretary General of the United Nations, Antony Guterres, before the commencement of the COP 27 which will hold in November this year. Environmental discussions holding COP 27 Buhari renewed the nation's commitment towards ensuring that there was a rapid and strategic transition to renewable energy in response to the worldwide efforts for the preservation of the environment. Now, he also stressed that his administration had in August this year launched a homegrown data backed multi-pronged energy transition plan which is a country's framework in achieving net zero emissions by 2060. Now, that's quite interesting, but we need to get some more insight and analysis of this. We're glad to have Jonas to discuss this. Martin Uzoegu, President of Nui, which happens to be very interestingly the National Union of Electricity Employers. I hope I got it right, Martin Uzoegu, and thank you very much for your time. Thank you very much. Thank you for having me. Yes indeed. What are your thoughts on this energy transition plan as a player in the energy industry in Nigeria? Yeah, thank you very much. Well, the energy transition plan is a welcome development and is something that at the front burner, especially in the global world. And of course, it shouldn't be new to Nigeria because the world has been discussing about it. It's just simply dynamic energy infrastructure changes in Nigeria and the world at large. We are, you know, the renewable energy sources are being shifted to renewable energy sources. So, if Nigeria wants to pay into it, I think we need to commend them and we believe that it will be done with us in sincerity and with commitment that it needed given the right legislative framework. So, you see, sometimes when such plans come up, one will look at it, the antecedent of those who are, you know, square-heading it. Looking from where we were coming from during privatization of electricity, what happened nine years after have we done well after privatizing the industry, nine years after we are still moving around 4,000 megawatts. So, based on that, if the commitment to... All right, we seem to be having a bit of a network challenge happen some time to time in our climate. But I hope that we can get Martin Uzegubak, who interestingly happens to be the president of the National Union of Electricity Employees. Energy transition plan is quite an interesting thing. It's not just the beauty of how it sounds, but it's also the beauty of the idea. Mercy scene Nigeria transit from its current fossil fuel-based power supply of energy production to a more sustainable, environmentally sustainable model. Though some people, you know, will dispute the fact that these models are environmentally friendly because they would ask you, okay, if you want to use a wind turbine, you're still going to have to look for a way to, you know, impute some things that will harm the environment. You want to have solar parks, for instance. They also talk about that. But, you know, we're behind as far as the world is concerned on renewable energy. Slow questions to be asked. But it was interesting to see me. I see the Vice President, Professor Yamio Shibajo, he took a grand tour, let's call it that, you know, of the United States of America. He was at White House with his American counterpart Kamala Harris. The Vice President spoke, gave a speech at that podium, you know, President of the United States, Vice President, beautiful podium that we all dream of seeing one day. And he looked quite presidential. It was a time for him to really advance himself as a diplomat and presidential material. Yes. All right. But if you look at, you know, the concern at the end of the day is the fact that there's always been conversation. This is not the first time this conversation is on, on a global scale. And of course, because we're part of ourselves, as a global village, a community, everyone is supposed to be concerned. And our actions at the end of the day should contribute to protecting it. And we're talking about, you know, carbon now, the reduction of carbon emission to the climate or to the environment, reduction of it at the end of the day. But if you look at that particular conversation, I mean, for saying that, let's begin to reduce what we're meeting to the environment and, you know, tackle the issue of climate change. It comes back to the issue of development. And if you talk about development for Africa and Nigeria, we haven't really been on top of the front boner, especially. It's a good thing that we're transiting. We're moving, we need to move away, you know, from that kind of, you know, energy that we're faced with to a clean energy where the environment will be protected. But has Africa and Nigeria really contributed to, you know, the pollution of the environment? I mean, talking about the carbon emission, how much of this emission have we put out there, really, as a country? Because you would talk about manufacturing and production. But that's it. But if the world is actually moving, then we have to move. The next question would be, is Nigeria really ready? And I'm hoping that we'll have a guest back, you know, to have this conversation, because it's a lot. I just hope that, you know, it will be so interesting to hear from him about the electricity workers strike. Because he's directly involved. I just hope that maybe they have not, because in the papers today, they said they're going to turn off the light. So I hope that they have not turned it off where he is. And it has not affected his network. But I don't think that there will be the case. I really, really want to even ask him a lot of questions about the workers strike action that is about to go return is what we see in the papers this morning. But back to the energy transition plan, you know, the word transition simply means, you know, I think it could also moving from one thing to another. But you know, what are the environmental credentials of the government of Nigeria? I'm not just talking about the Buhari administration. I'm just talking about previous administrations. What are the energy credentials? We even will go down to the military days. We can start from maybe about just time. Let's not go too far. What are the environmental credentials? Since Aminah Mohammed left the scene and went to the United Nations to, you know, assume her position as Deputy Secretary General, it's been really like a downward. It's been nothing really that you hear. Well, things have been happening. But not on the scale to convince me that Nigeria is on a path to aggressively, intentionally protect the environment. The reason the global community, you know, COP 27 is around the corner. They are big on climate change and renewable energy is to save the environment. But you know, a country that has not even begun to do the needful as far as environmental issues are concerned. I think it's a joke, you know, that we're talking about the energy transition plan. It's the biggest joke of the century. I laugh each time I hear this. I'm sorry to say. I'm sorry to say. You cannot be saying one thing and then you're doing the opposite, you know, against the thing you're saying you want to do. So I think it just shows how much of a joke we have, you know, in terms of governance in this country. It's like going to say, you know, we want people to come and put their money in the country. But your policies are not business friendly to the extent that foreign companies who are doing business in Nigeria can't even get their money out, you know. So why am I saying it's a joke? Merci. You have the problem of gas flaring, which has been an issue for years. The government has policies on gas flaring. The government has standards on gas flaring. But when you talk about implementation of the measures and the policies to reduce to the minimum agreed acceptable standards, it's not there. You have government agencies that are satisfied with the responsibility of addressing the issue of gas flaring. It's not there. You go to communities in in the not just gas flaring, flaring of harmful substances into the atmosphere as a result of exploitation of fossil fuels, you know. It's not there. I mean, I still lived and worked in Portugal for a long time. You remember if you remember, there was some advocacy in media, civil society for government to stop the suit. You know, those in Portugal, you know, river stated, even if you go to Wari, they have issues there because you have refinery there as well. We're advocating for this, but the state government was receiving a lot of the advocacy. But the truth was that the federal government was the one that had the power to ensure that the emission of harmful substances into the atmosphere, thereby affecting those who reside in all producing areas was addressed. It was stopped at the buck, it was with the federal government. And guess who the Minister of Petroleum Resources was and is? The president of Nigeria who was saying these things at the UN. So the buck stopped at his table and the federal government did nothing. You know, practically, practically, if you look at everything, really has not done anything to address the PM 2.5 emission we call suit that is affecting people and it's humming. People have died. If you look at mercy, the incidences of upper respiratory tract infections in places where you have, you know, crude oil production, all right? Mercy is quite high. I'm taking time because I'm passionate about environmental issues. It's quite high. So you are the Minister of Petroleum Resources. Your government is superintending over an oil and gas industry that exploits resources to the detriment of the lives of people. And then you are going to talk about energy transition plan. Are we joking or what? No, but Kofi, I mean, you have raised very resilient point and perspective right here, which is very valid and will constantly say, like you have said, that it's a practical joke. Okay? So the big question that I'm asking, and I'm hoping that we have our guest back just before we call it a wrap, are we ready for the global transition? Because the world leaders, I mean, the globe, everyone is moving and we are firming their commitment for a carbon neutral economy or world in 2015 and 2016. Now, I mean, because of the agreement that was entered in 2015, the Paris Agreement, which Niger is part of. And so this is not the first time, like I said, when international players come together, there's usually always agreement, but they come together and they say, hey, there's need for global prosperity and development. But usually countries would always act in their interest. And we say, when you say we're facing climate changes or climate crisis, and we begin to have commitment and discussions around less protects the environment, less protects, you know, the globe. So we don't wake up one day and we're extinct. Everyone's gone because of human activities over time. You begin to ask yourself in terms of carbon emission, the question I would ask is how much is Africa emitting and how much is Nigeria contributing? Because at the end of the day, it brings us back, you know, to industry. But really, Nigeria being part of the agreement, the Paris Agreement 2015, not also forgetting that we're very dependent on oil, you know, for it's an oil economy. Our earnings are highly dependent on oil. So what becomes of us when we begin to get into this kind of agreement? Are we making plans, you know, for revenue generation, because it would mean that we would have to move away from the use of petrol. I mean, fossil fuel here. And so there would be electric cars. Everything would be electrical and all of that. We're trying to move away to a cleaner technology and energy where we don't have to be using fuel and what have you. Are we really ready in all sense if we have been part of this agreement in 2015? Well, it is a committee, which means we're committed as much as it sounds very brilliant. And the world is moving towards it because what it will mean is that, you know, in terms of development for every time you have all of that, we will be, you know, going behind, lagging behind in terms of development. We're not even in meeting anything. What are we really producing? How much of the emissions are we contributing? But it is what it is. It's the discussions that we're having now. And so I really don't know if we're already thinking ahead, because we might probably be thinking that 2050 is far off, or, you know, 2030 is far off, but we're very close. And if up until 62 years, and I mean, we're going to be talking about the Nigerians' independence, I mean, the fact that we have been a sovereign nation for 62 now, how many more years do we have to begin to think about diversifying and depending on clean oil? When we know that we earned from, you know, what's it called again, petrol? I mean, if the world is moving away from this, so do we have the market for it today? Because it's all wiped out by the deficit. There will be no need for it. So who will buy? It's like you say you have rice and people say we're not eating rice any longer. We're moving away from rice to beans. I think that the government should be really, really very much more concerned about going broke, I mean, shutting down, say, morning or go day again, when the world, you know, day now, but I mean, at least they see something, when the world finally moves on from, you know, fossil fuel, you know, driven economies, you know, some have said it's not possible, but totally, but we see, we see the move towards, for instance, electric vehicles. Just, you know, we talk about Tesla a lot, Elon Musk and what it's doing. But there are others, you know, Donald Trump is touting the fact that, I'm sorry, Joe Biden, one of the recent economic figures and data released, you know, I said, see, we are moving forward. There's been multi-million, multi-billion dollar investment by American vehicle manufacturers in the electronic vehicle segment or electrical vehicle segment. So we're seeing movement in that direction. The Chinese Asians are really also moving very fast. And so for me, greater danger would be how would the government survive? You know, I mean, you've not proven the capacity to manage what you have, to create an efficient energy sector, you know, a transparent energy sector, you know, and then you're talking about transiting, what are you transiting from? You know, it's a shame, really. You see, this government and environmental matters are like this. It's like night and day. You know, when you talk about the Nigerian government, you talk about environmental matters, it's like night and day. You see, the environment in Nigeria is like a goose that lays the golden egg. And the federal government of Nigeria, led by President Buhari, who is the president and minister of petroleum resources, it's like that farmer who says, I'm going to stick all the egg in there and doesn't take care of the goose. So you have the government and then the international companies who it partners with or who it licenses to exploit the nation's crude oil resources, hydrocarbon fuels and all that. And they're not taking care of the environment. We look at the plethora of oil spills in the Niger Delta, which is the most polluted delta in the world. You know, livelihoods have been affected. Merci people who used to fish can no longer fish. People who used to farm can no longer farm. You know, they went and launched the Ogoni cleanup. And where is the Ogoni cleanup today? Like people on on Twitter will say, I don't know, we'll say it's in the mud. It's in the mud. It's what they say. They'll say it's water, water. Where is the Ogoni cleanup today? Since Aminah Mohammed packed things, like we say in this part where I'm going to go, and left to UN, you know, it's been like this. So what are you talking about? You can't give what you don't have. So, so, you know, when, when you talk about the federal government today, we have a guest, we have a guest back. All right. Let's go back to a Martin Uzwego, president of Newark, which is a national, you know, electricity employees. Mr. Uzwego, are you there, please? Can you hear us? Martin, can you hear us, please? Unfortunately. All right. Apparently a guest isn't back. So Merci, as we're saying, you know, and then even the fact that, you know, you have resources, all right, natural gas, natural gas alone, this is what several economies are looking for to power, you know, their, their, their equipment to ensure that they can, you know, provide electricity to their, to their citizens. We have natural gas that will last us years, abundant natural gas resources trapped beneath the ground. And till today, this government has not been able to utilize the natural gas resources to be able to provide Nigerians with stable power supply. So we're told that Martin's is back. Martin's can hear us. Yeah, I can hear you. Yeah. Martin Uzwego, yeah. Thank you very much. So what are your thoughts on this energy transition plan as advanced by the federal government? Do you see it being feasible, giving some of the things that we're, we're complaining about on the program this morning? So I can hear you. I can hear you now. Can you please repeat the question? It's feasible. Is it, is this energy transition plan bearing in mind the challenges we have in our energy sector today in terms of power supply? The federal government wanting to move away from, you know, all in gas powered energy provision, power provision, power supply to a cleaner, environmentally friendlier model. Do you think this is going to be possible bearing in mind the challenges we have in our environment? Well, I think it will be possible, just like I said, if the government have the commitment and share in their program, you know, moving into the energy transition is aware of increasing the capacity of the existing generating power in Nigeria. And equally, have to reduce the climatic you know, changes that we are experiencing in Nigeria and globally. So I believe that if government were able to remove the bottlenecks and equally bring the stakeholders who are in this business to the round table to discuss about it, that will go a long way in sanitizing the energy sector in Nigeria. However, we are mindful the challenges that we are facing during privatization up to this moment. Gas has been the source of energy it has about 70% of the energy source that generates electricity. Yes, we have high growth, but I think it's time for us to diversify moving into renewable energy, more of renewable energy. Like the solar, we have a bundle of solar in our system, like using the wind, you know, which is a problem not in Nigeria. I will probably have to harness the opportunity of using biomass, you know, and these are some of the areas we could move into. But we need to have an executive framework that will work towards ensuring that the development and sustainability of this land is achieved. These are the increases out of time, but I wish we had you earlier that are supposed to work in this sector. Martin, moving into product privatization, which would then reduce the number of workers and that is what we are doing. You can go privatization after nine years. We are still talking about 4,000 megawatt. Martin, can you hear me? Hello, Martin? Martin, can you hear me? Hello? Martin, if you can hear me, can you hear me please? Okay, so it has to be a two-way conversation now. We're really out of time, but I like the things that you have said. But to be very realistic, it's not about whether or not there's privatization or no privatization, what's going on. The fact that your country, Nigeria, our country is getting into agreements that would mean that we're ready to move away, you know, cut down carbon immersion. When we know that we're highly dependent on, you know, crude for earnings, are we really ready? We're getting into all of this agreement, you know, with other countries of the world and saying we want to reduce, we want to stop, you know, the emission of, you know, carbon into the environment to help manage the issue of climate crisis that the world is faced with. And so are we really being very honest and we understand what we're getting into because we haven't been great with the issue of diversifying the economy. I mean, 1960, 66 up until now, we have still been talking about diversifying the economy. Yes, I could put it that as far as we are concerned, Nigeria is not ready, even though that is something that could be done and we believe that is the best way to go in terms of having a sustainable energy development. We have abundant gas in this country, but we are clearing this and all this is like looking to that both ways, creating a climate exchange. We have water, which is going to improve in the hydro energy generation. We can have more generation coming from there. We have solar, we have wind, if we don't make an impoly move into nuclear energy. So all these things are in about that in Nigeria. So if the government doesn't have the finance and if the government doesn't have the capacity in terms of having the legislative framework that we deal with the strategic needs, the sincerity, and they probably put in the right people in the right position that would drive this process. Everything will come back to square one. So people do honestly, I think we are putting Nigeria in the better place in the country where the economy can be developed through energy transition. So I believe it's doable and I believe that it's the best way to go, but at first we must put the right person in the right position. We must have the sincerity of purpose. We must be committed and we must do it with open heart and open mind. Bring that code out to the world. We can talk about it in the Iran table. Thank you so much for your time. I hate to interrupt you because I'm totally enjoying your submission, but because of time, and we apologize for the network challenges earlier, we definitely should have you here sometime next week. But thank you so much for your time. We'll talk about the strike maybe next time we have you and have a fantastic weekend. Thank you very much. Thank you so much. It's time to talk football. Supergirls, we're part of the international break and we'll talk about that when we come back right on.