 have several questions. I think I will read some, some of the questions I think are in the category of clarifications or very brief answers. The first one I think Dr. Taylor may have already addressed that and the question is where did you get data about the rankings of schools that yield the most PhDs? Okay, I think I hope I'm on. Yes, you could go to the National Center for Science and Engineering Statistics, this NSF document 21-321, and go to table 7-7. It will list the top baccalaureate institutions of black or african-american S&E doctorate recipients by type of institution 2015 to 2019. I repeat this, NC National Center for Science and Engineering Statistics, NSF 21-321, that's the document number, I mean the publication number, and the table number is 7-7. I'll put in the chat the top 10 producers as of these data as of 2019. Okay, thank you so very much, and the data set that you mentioned, it's really a wonderful data set. We and COS use those data sets very often, so thank you so much for pointing that out. The second question reads like this, per capita, how does this success rate, PhDs and MDs, PhDs in STEM and leadership positions, plus national credibility, for example, invited service on national STEM advisory councils, of one, graduates from UMBC Mayerhoff Scholars Program compared with the success rates, plus national credibility, for example, invited service on national STEM advisory boards, and two, graduates from the STEM programs of HBCUs and or HSIs. I would invite the three speakers if they can to address this question. Let's start with Dr. Taylor. As a quick follow-up to the last, the first question, as I'm looking at the data in front of me, and I'm trying to get it such that I can put it in chat. The number one producer, predominantly white institution that produces African Americans who later get PhDs in the United States, it's not Harvard, it's not Stanford, it's not MIT, it's the University of Maryland Baltimore County, more than even the flagship in College Park. Who's the president? Freeman Herbowski. So that's something about the leader that sets the tone, that sets the culture that we can't dismiss that. Just want to comment on that. In that top 10, Maryland Baltimore County is number one among PWIs and fourth in the country. Jose, are you? Yeah, how about the other speakers? Can you share? Give me, in 15 words, what is it that you want to be answered? Just repeat that. Just summarize what you want to be answered. The question is, how do we assess the success rates of the PhD programs from individuals that come from programs such as the one at UMBC versus other national programs? Yeah, well, I think that we look at individual cases and see how it's happened. Just following in my critical ways of things, and I do, but at Rice, I produced probably, in mathematical sciences, I've had 16 women PhD students and I've had no, 15 underrepresented minority PhD students who have gone off to be faculty at Tier 1 schools. One of my minority students last year, I nominated and he's a member of the National Academy of Engineering. So I think we have to look at the individual cases and see how are you doing on that. But I would tell you right now, I don't think any mathematical sciences person has produced more women or more minority PhDs than I have. Now, I'm not saying that Rice is perfect, and I'm not saying that Tier 1 schools are perfect, but I'm saying that I produce people that have gone off into their careers and become national leaders in the profession. And I'm very happy about that. And the same with with the women. Now, what, you know, just to further, you know, aggravate the people and, you know, pass my talk is that if you get a PhD, here's what, in my book, I say, I don't think that there is one PhD from a minority serving institution who is on the faculty of a Tier 1 school in STEM. Okay. So in other words, we're very leaders on how we hire people. I mean, we're going through hiring right now. Right now, if I look at the hiring pool, in fact, I had to interview the candidate just a little while ago, our pool is probably 75% Chinese nationals. Okay. So in the pool of 300 students, you know, we had one, no, two underrepresented minorities that we had to look at very closely. But what I'm saying is this, this here's a hard statement. I don't believe that there is a PhD from a minority serving institution who is on the faculty tenure track at a Tier 1 school. We're too elitist in the way we pick. And there's more to it than that. I can just say that. But, you know, these are hard data points to look at. Okay. But I've tried really hard to find such an entity. Now, I'm not against HBCUs. And I think that there's a lot of things that can do extremely well. And there's a lot of things that majority universities don't do well. But I look at this, I'll look bottom line. Tell me how many people, like we just had some data from Orlando, tell me how many individuals have gotten their PhD at an HBCU or at a Hispanic serving institution and our tenure track faculty at a Tier 1 school? And the answer is zero. I mean, that's a hard thing to say. But I mean, you know, when I was young, I used to say it. And now that I'm old, I still say it. Richard, I think that's the wrong question. So you're focusing only on PhD production in terms of judging the quality of the education required of the students. Students have to start off with an undergraduate education before they get into a doctoral program. So the question becomes, what kind of foundations are built in institutions that lead them onward to the PhD? And if you ask that question, you get a different answer, not the ones that produce PhDs. Of course, more PhDs are produced with down with the white institutions, because they have more of them are from PhDs. That's the wrong question. No, I mean, that's the question that I decided to answer Orlando. Now, you know, you have your question because it's going to be supported by your data. But I understand what you're saying, but you know, I'll even aggravate the situation by saying that of most of the minority PhDs that we produce here at Rice, most of them have come as Rice undergraduates. Okay. So in other words, they move in from undergraduates into the graduate school. We haven't had the success that you want or that you're, you know, you're proposing that we say now granted, sure, there are students that come from HBCUs or especially and or Hispanic serving institutions. Okay. That's that's that's one question. Okay. But I'm, I'm willing to stand up with you, Orlando. Students that, you know, a lot of the minority students that we have produced as PhDs at Rice were undergraduates at Rice. Can I ask a slightly different question? By the way, Rice does not appear in the top 50 producer of African American undergraduate PhD. So Rice is not a player on a numerical number on a quantitative number of producing African Americans in STEM. Let me tell you this. Okay. You have, but not the institution. Yeah. Yeah. Look, look, Orlando. Rice, in terms of undergraduate population, okay, is 10% African American. Rice is okay. That puts us number one among all AAU tier one universities in the United States. Number two is Georgia Tech. Okay. At 10% Rice is number one in the production of undergraduates. And this is African American undergraduates among all AAU tier one schools. Okay. And where my criticism goes to the administration is that while we've done a great job in Texas of producing African American, we haven't done the same thing with the Hispanic situation. Okay. And that's where I'm the pain right now to the president. Yeah. Cliff. Yeah. I'd like to ask a slightly different version of the question. And that is, are we able to measure? And I don't think we are yet. So we should measure added value. Because we should identify what the institution is able to contribute. That is the product going out much stronger than you might have predicted from all of the background and information of the product coming in. And I think that that's something that is more challenging. But it's something that I would certainly like to know where are the places where you go, where you really get, you really get a kick that you, your expectations or I mean your outcomes are higher than might have been expected. Cliff, that's very good. I want to quote a dear friend of mine that I've known for a long time. And that's Shirley Malcolm. Shirley Malcolm at the National Science Board used to say this. Okay. We value what we measure because we don't know how to measure what we value. Yeah. You're here. Okay. Well, on that note, let's move on to the next question. But I want to also mention something along the lines of what Dr. Taylor said. In the year 2019, the National Academy of Sciences published a report which is titled this status of the minority seven institutions in the United States. And in that report, it is indicated that a very high percentage of underrepresented students who later joined the STEM workforce are trained at those institutions. Very, very important statistic there. So the next question is for Dr. Tapia. And the question reads like this. Dr. Tapia makes an important point about senior leaders of color, not only representing themselves as content experts, but also dedicated individuals to diversity, equity, inclusion, and belonging and requiring a host of organization to recognize our intersected identities. Research is clear that the success of these efforts are tethered to if, when, and how an institution's leader presents their understanding and commitment to diversity, equity, inclusion, and belonging. So this is to Dr. Tapia. All right. So again, okay, I heard what you said, but tell me again in simple words, because, you know, I'm a mathematician. I don't have an English major. What is it that you want me to comment on? I suppose that here the idea is that you want to express the success of these efforts, you know, like the ones we are discussing here today. And I think you in your presentation alluded to that to some extent, you know, as to how we measure the success of these efforts that we are all embark on, at least the audience that we have here today. Well, I still don't really understand what I'm supposed to say, but let me do this. We do need, you know, to focus on the full spectrum of students. I mean, it's the country that we're worried about. It's the country that we're worried about. It's not one school or one group or anything. And then there's, and I always argue that underrepresentation, okay, is not to support the discipline. It's not that civil engineering is in trouble or math is in trouble. It's that the country is in trouble. So I say that underrepresentation should be something that we take care of to improve the health of the nation. No country can be so, no country can stay healthy with such a large part of its population outside of mainstream backbone activities. Science and engineering is a backbone activity of this country. And if we're not there, then we're not in the leadership and in the part of the country. So it's really working together. I don't want to separate. I mean, but you know, but I've all my life, I've heard people hit at places, you know, and in particular, at the way I view things. But I've been really, I don't think anybody in the country has been more successful than I have in producing, you know, programs, okay, the agave program, which won an award, okay, our program, many of them, okay, you know, they win awards, and we're still continuing to do that. So I want it to be an integrated effort across the whole country, all people together. And how can we use, as Orlando says, you know, the HBCU, because they do some wonderful things. I mean, they really do some wonderful things. And so it isn't zero one. It's how do we put the whole spectrum together to work. And when I was in the National Science Board with my friend, Shirley Malcolm, we pointed out and learned that postdoc situation is particularly problematic, not just for minorities. It's problematic for everyone. Postdocs tend to be isolated and not integrated into the mainstream activity of the university or of the country. And so we need to work on that. And in an hour or so, I'm going to give a presentation on how we're supposed to work with postdocs in a presentation to NSF. But anyway, yeah, it's a big group working together. I'm finding myself agreeing with Richard here for a change during this panel anyway. I've been grieving it most of the time anyway, but particularly during this panel. And the point is that the focus is not to be on social justice, but on the welfare of the nation. That's where we have to start. It's not a social justice argument. It's about the competitiveness of the United States of the nation. Yeah. Great, Orlando. I mean, great. Look, look at this. Look at this. Our hiring committee right now is looking at applicants, okay? And out of 300 applicants, okay? 75% or more are national Chinese. 75% or more, okay, are national Chinese. I'm not talking about Asian Americans. I'm talking about national Chinese from very good schools. All right. All right. Good, Orlando. That note, let me just read the last question, which is addressed to Dr. Tabia. How do you suggest to top institutions to create the necessary conditions for underrepresented students to go there, be successful and thrive? It has to come top down. Here's the mistake. I made a lot of mistakes in my life, okay? I have. But the biggest mistake I've made in my life is thinking that change can come brought them up, okay? It has to, buy-in has to be bottom up. Buy-in has to say the faculty really values it. And most people think that faculty value, you know, let's say improving representation. But that's not high on the spectrum. I mean, was high as well as for research and various other things. So I made the mistake of thinking I could change the world bottom up, okay? And if I, you know, and so I didn't institutionalize things because I couldn't, because I wasn't in a position. If we don't get the presidents to buy in completely and say this is a part of what we should be doing for our country, as Orlando said a minute ago, we're going to lose it, okay? And so presidents, you know, they always have the same generic statements about how diversity is good and this is good and we're going to do this. But do they do meaningful things? And in my book, I have some suggestions on, you know, I hit the president's heart on this issue. We have to start at the top. If you don't get support, you know, certainly faculty, I mean, it's a success to have the faculty because faculty essentially control graduate education and hiring, okay? So yes, yes, there is. But you have to say, when I'm doing these things, I'm working towards better diversity, better representation. It's valued by the chair, it's valued by the dean, it's valued by the provost, and it's valued by the president and valued in the sense that meaningful rewards, okay? And I think we've all done it and in fact, I think Cliff said this really good because, you know, we started out saying there's a big problem here and we have to do something to help, okay? And that's why I got into it. But I will say this to all of you, the delicate balance in my whole life has been trying to balance the outreach with the ingredients of, say, research that are rewarded. So my life has been balanced between good things that are not rewarded and research which is rewarded. That's the delicate balance, okay? And so many minorities in the early days in the 60s used to fall into that track and we had people, you know, who weren't getting tenure. And anyway, so yeah, I think that we have to have the president do what Freeman Robowski has done. Okay. I thank all the three presenters for this session. We are scheduled to have a 15-minute break. Before we do so, I would like to invite Lydia to give us any additional remarks or comments before we reconvene for the second session. I just want to second thanking all three of you for starting us off with a bang. That was a wonderful session and I look forward to more to come. You know, another segment of higher education we rarely talk about in terms of making those numbers greater is the community college segment where almost 40 percent of all, maybe more, of all students of color who start off higher education careers are community colleges. And we all know in many disciplines, if you don't start off with, say, good math, this is your case, Richard. They ain't going to never make it in physics, for example, never. In fact, if you don't make it in high school, they aren't going to make it. Orlando, you're right on. You're spot on. Now, one thing that you may not know is I am a graduate of a community college. There you go. I didn't know that. Okay. And they are big producers. Absolutely. Absolutely. Both my son and daughter went to community college. There you go. I have a quick comment for Dr. Tepe. I mean, I thought your talk was very thought provoking. The only thing I'd like to bring up is that there was a time when the yield of PhDs were mainly going into academic careers. The data today shows that you're looking at anywhere from 15 to 25 percent that are pursuing the kind of career paths that is emphasized by quite frankly the elitist approaches and exclusionary approaches that our top tier institutions make. So whereas I think that your point is very valid in terms of where those institutions get their own in terms of faculty and so forth, how does that play out to the other 75 to 85 percent of PhDs that pursue a variety of other careers that might not necessarily be as pedigree consumed as academic institutions tend to be? The job market is incredibly tough. I got my PhD in 68 and then I went to as a postdoc at the Math Research Center at Wisconsin. After that postdoc, I had maybe 15 job offers from tier one. I'm not sure today if I'd get any job offers. I look at the applicant pool and the stuff and I'd go, man, I'm glad I got my degree back in 68 because I'm not sure I'd get a job today. The students are aware of that. The students know how hard the job market is, but moreover today with respect to the industry, like when you say what Google is doing and Microsoft is doing, there's a lot of really exciting research and those positions are necessarily not subservient to the academic positions and so a lot of students are going in good directions. And then it used to be that you didn't go from an industrial job to an academic, but now with doing so much, it's possible. But students today are aware of the job market in academia and it is incredible. And that's going to be another challenge of course is that this changed a lot in the last 50 years is the increasing attraction to jobs and industry as opposed to academia. That's right. Whereas in the good old days, that was pretty much the destination everybody thought of. You go to a university, you get a degree from the first class place. I was a Michigan graduate. My thought was, of course, I was going to be a professor at another top tier institution. Today, many of those same students want to go to industry. That is correct for various reasons. And for various reasons. Yeah. And yeah, I see that all the time. But what's happened is that at one time, as you said, we said, oh yeah, the correct path and the outstanding path I want to go as a university, then industry came in and played a strong role. And then you said, oh, industry is good. Then industry went down. Now industry is back. Okay, so I mean industry doing some really exciting things. Okay. And the question, I mean, the students that I working with, they tell me, I have people I won't name the companies who are working for them. They go, they're really tough on us. I mean, you think academia is tough. They're really tough on us. Cliff, did you say you started at the community college too? Oh, me? Yeah, Cliff. Oh, Cliff. No, I didn't. I started at the University of Buffalo as an undergrad. Yeah. The best math professor I ever had was in community college. And he told me. He pulled me aside and he said, here's what I want from you. And I said, well, let's go because I don't know where I'm going. Well, you know, that raises another issue is that many mentors at research universities discourage their PhD graduates from assuming for assuming a career in a community college. They feel that it's a waste of their time that they're not they're not producing folks that could go to community colleges. And yet that's where significant numbers of the people are who need first class faculty to get them prepared to do further work. So we have a dilemma here that I have three women students who have PhDs who are in high school. And they're really making a difference in those in that high school community. And you know, so some people say, does that bother you that student ABC is teaching in a high school? I don't know because they need understanding. They need we don't need to let, you know, the math education run the show. We need people with content knowledge. Okay. And I'm not saying that they're going to teach the content, but they're going to understand the whole situation. Look at Freeman Burbowski. Freeman doesn't do research, but he sure has a great PhD from University of Illinois. Yeah, in mathematics. And I know, I know. He and David Blackwell also from Illinois. Yeah. Yeah. And so they understand a lot. I mean, I'm going to give Freeman all the credit I can. Okay, he understands a lot and he gives great talks. And I haven't any lately I haven't had fights with him, but I'm still waiting. Richard, that actually also speaks to your comments that you may call them about credibility. You know, Freeman has the has the credibility and starting out with that helped him at least get into that position. He brought his all his other talents to bear. See, look, when I get invitation to speak, okay, yeah, people know I'm controversial, but a lot of it are the credentials preceding me where they say, look, National Medal of Science. Tapia cannot be a complete turkey. Okay. And so I get these invitations. Anyway, yeah, you're right. You know, we're all going to leave being loving each other. Okay. Everybody love each other. That's where we start, Tapia. You know, I grew up not knowing how to use the word love. So when I say that, because my mother was very strong woman, I didn't know the word love, but today's world uses love a lot. So I'm learning. I mean, today, that's my practice on using the word love is we have to love each other. Okay. Another factor in what all of you mentioned is that the, the research one institutions in particular have been very slow to this show. And part of it is because of what you said, Richard, which is that while there might have been a little bit of activity at the bottom, there was very little at the top and there were no incentives. That's sort of just now beginning. And it is just now occurring to a good many of these institutions that they're missing out when they don't have the domestic students available. And summer programs have begun to help that. So that now the faculty are saying, Oh, I want one of those guys, gals in my lab. And then they admit them to graduate school. So it's slow. But you're right. I mean, it used to be white males or bad guys. Now they're good guys. Okay. And why are they good guys? Because we don't have them in our graduate programs. I love white males too. Hi. This is France. Hello, everybody. Hi, friends. Hi, I really enjoyed the last session you all did just great. It was super interesting. I'm looking forward to participating in the next, although I enjoy listening more than talking. So so your session was a highlight. I did want to just I had to jump in to comment on universities. So I'm a trustee at a university that is traditionally very, you know, white male and lots of foreign students. And that's Caltech. And I see enormous changes going on there, just enormous. I don't have the statistics at hand to show you but could get them. But they are really, really making big strides towards diversity and inclusion. And they they have some wonderful leadership and starting with the president. He has some wonderful people working with him closely on this. And if anything, our board meetings, which are, as you can imagine on a whole host of topics from technology transfer to student experience, etc. Every every meeting is permeated with DEI. And so so things are changing. I think for all of us we've lived through a lot and this change is coming late. But it is it is really happening. Thank you. And yes, I agree with Caltech had such a long ways to go. Okay. And and that's true. But one of the things that I say France to you is universities don't understand the difference between domestic born and raised and why it's important to represent have them represented our country versus people who come from other countries. Yeah, I saw that in your remarks. Yeah. And I make it big in my book. So we'll see how the book goes. I mean, you know, we'll see how the book goes because I hit hard. Okay. I had to think about it because I've had people tell me no, you shouldn't do that. And I've had people tell me you should do it. And then I told myself I should do it. And so I did it. And it's true under when France was director, the last director, it was then because for a long time, a number of us have been saying this on the seos committee, that we did to pull those numbers apart. And now the the NSF is beginning to do that. So that well, thank thank goodness for seos. I mean, really, you know, just the very best, I mean, all the committee, all the committees, all the children are beautiful. But but see us did something extra special because it permeated very articulately on what needed to be done through the whole agency, you know, not just a piece of it. And in a very synthetic way. And we had just, you know, wonderful leadership on seos. That's good. Yeah, I agree with that. Amen. So is France there? Yeah, Francis. I want to ask you a question. When you when you started your lecture series at Purdue, and a president's lecture series, and you invited me as the first speaker, did you have any pushback because I was underrepresented minority? No, no, I don't remember anything like that. Why do you ask? Because I'm interested in it. That's a good response. So no. Okay, fine. No, no, we were always in fact, yeah, I was just talking with my spouse about that, who of course remembers you and your lecture and all very well. No, that that was some any pushback I got that Purdue was at me, you know, from from alums who are used to different looking.