 Hello everybody, welcome back to another episode of Anabaptist Perspectives. I'm here with Josh, we're in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, and you had spent some time living in Jerusalem. Describe that. Like, when were you there? How long were you there? Why were you living and working in that city? Yeah, so we were, we lived there from 2015 to 2018, so three years from January to January. We were there living in Jerusalem, we lived inside the old city of Jerusalem, had the opportunity to live there, which is kind of a rare opportunity. I lived there for three years. In the Christian quarter, if you're familiar with the old city, it's Christian quarter, small Armenian quarter, Jewish quarter, and the Muslim quarter, which is the biggest of the four sections in the old city. We were there working in humanitarian aid, we worked throughout the region, but most of my work took me into Palestinian territories in the West Bank and Gaza, but we were headquartered working from Jerusalem primarily, and like literally where we lived there in the old city, of course, is like right on the scene between East and West Jerusalem, which is was like the traditional dividing line after the 1967 Six Day War. Jerusalem, the old city, is kind of a place of its own within the larger Jerusalem, and of course Jerusalem itself is a big metropolitan area, but the old city is almost a square kilometer with a population of between 30,000 and 40,000 people living in it, so like very, very tightly packed in there and old cobblestone streets and history every time you turn around, so yeah, that's where we lived. We had two of our three children there in Jerusalem, really kind of an amazing and crazy and difficult place to live. Well, okay, because that would be like when you when you moved, I'm just speculating, but did you ever feel pressured to take some type of Christian Zionist stance or something to that effect? Yeah, like kind of walk us through that transition of moving and those pressures. Yeah, no, I don't know that I ever like felt any kind of pressure there. Obviously, it's something that's always in the back of your mind, because it's such a conflicted area, deep, deep history of the conflict going back many, many generations, but where we were kind of where we were situated, we could, we were in the Christian quarter in the old city, like I said, which is Christian Arab population, which is the majority of the Christians in Israel and Palestine area. You can't live there without feeling the tensions and there were waves of unrest and difficulty at times. Nothing too serious while we were there, but still it's always kind of there. It's kind of part of the fabric, even if it's not like always being active on it. It's always kind of there. I know it's a big question within the conservative and Baptist world. There's pretty big differences of opinion. What should be our response to the state of Israel? There are some who feel very strongly that as a country, we need to be supporting them. As a people, we need to be supporting Zionism. And then there are others who really take a pretty strong opposing stance to that. Living there, really you come out of it with just the conviction that any kind of easy narrative, any kind of simplistic narrative just really doesn't cut it. And so I think what I would say, some things that I would say to both sides of the issue, just based on my own experience. First of all, I think it's important that we appreciate the genuine connections that are there. It's really hard to see 2000-year-old synagogues and not appreciate like ruins of those synagogues and not appreciate like the deep kind of rootedness of the Jewish people in the land. Example, like we were the gets at the deep history that's there. We would often like Saturday evening, you know, pack a picnic lunch and go out in the grassy areas outside the old city to eat. And like soon after we were there, I forget how long it was. We were just kind of relaxing there in the grass. And you know, all of a sudden you come across these kind of caves in the wall, like in the city wall. Oh, what are these, right? So you kind of look around and then you find this plaque and like, oh yeah, these are tombs like dating back to the first temple period. Like that depth of history makes you really kind of plays with your perception of time, right? You think of American history, you know, like 1776. Oh, that's like, like long ago. Like in terms of like the history of, you know, the Holy Land, it's like, it's like nothing, right? So I think first of all, to appreciate that connection. And also the second thing I would say is to really take seriously the extent to which Christianity has been implicated in, has been complicit with anti-Semitism over the years. Really, really terrible kind of legacy there, frankly. And the scars are very, very deep in Jewish memory. I'll never forget going to Yad Vashem, which is the Memorial Museum for the Holocaust recommended, you go there if you ever get the chance to visit. And, you know, in the section in the room on anti-Semitism, which ultimately of course culminates with, you know, Hitler and the gas chamber, it begins with like quotes from like church fathers, you know, very, very negative view of the Jewish people that just keeps getting, you know, perpetuated through as, you know, Christianity becomes a political force, right? And all that. So so many instances of that. And like that's there. And that's something that we really need to take seriously. When we think about questions of, you know, Zionism and the land and the Jewish people. To the people who kind of take the opposite stance that who would be less inclined to think that, therefore, we need to support, you know, politically the state of Israel, who would take that position and be kind of anti, you know, the idea that the Palestinians have any kind of say in what goes on there, I would say this, don't adopt any kind of view that you couldn't justify or explain to your Palestinian brother or sister in Christ, right? Who are regularly discriminated against, profiled at checkpoints in the law. I mean that the racism, it's, you really don't have to be there long to really see how deeply seated the racism, the prejudice, the animosity, the tension that's there. They face that, right? And they're often the ones that they know. From my experience, of course, not all of them respond, you know, with, you know, Christ-like love and non-violence. But like for the most part, especially those that I've become close to my time, they're really seen powerful examples of enemy love. I mean, they know who their enemy is, you know, and they are called to love and to not have to return, you know, good for evil. So, and even, you know, even in Gaza, there's a very, very, very small, you know, Christian population there. So whenever, like, you know, Israel is shelling, you know, Gaza for whatever reason, if you think it's justified or not, remember that there are Christian brothers and sisters there. Of course, we should care about any life, right? But like, be able to justify your theological ideas, you know, to your brothers and sisters. And frankly, you know, there's also a stream of Judaism that's not accepted very well, and mainstream is really Jewish culture, but who also accept, you know, Christ as Messiah, as Lord and all that. The relationships there between Jewish Christians, if we can use that designation, and, you know, Palestinian Christians, it's a fraught relationship and something we, I think, need to pray about. Think about it. I think we're deeply, like, the tensions are very nuanced. And then also, if you're going to make a claim about, you know, like, God's chosen people and all that, that claim, even in Scripture, never exempted the people of Israel, the children of Israel, you know, in the Hebrew Scriptures, from upholding justice and equity and righteousness, right? And if anything was, I mean, it was always a call to greater righteousness. The way I see it sometimes played out is that, well, whatever, kind of whatever Israel does, we need to support it if we want God's blessing, right? You know, there's this big stream within, like, especially Christian evangelicalism and, you know, the Christian right in America that we often, I think, as a people kind of go along with it. And, you know, there's some definite dangers there. That's kind of what I have to say on that. And it's a big, messy topic. Ooh, big ball of yarn. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it's, you know, however you approach it, you know, it's a very flammable issue. So I kind of try to speak from experience, I think, and everything is, you can be quick to hearing, slow to speak. Don't assume that God can't do something or that you fit God's way of working in the world within your own ideological framework. So we're doing this kind of based on your personal experience of living there. So can you give us a story of a formative experience? Like something that deeply impacted you in your time there? So it's not so much a story, or it's a story, but one of the times that I was in Gaza, I forget it was first or second or what time it was, I remember just being deeply, deeply moved or deeply, deeply aware of kind of my social status in the global scheme of things. Hmm. You know, I am working there because I can. It's interesting to me, but I have a, I have a, you know, I'm being supported in doing it. It's, I'm being employed to work there, but anytime I want to, I can leave, I can come back home. There's a family business that I could potentially get involved in. I can pursue, you know, graduate education. I have all these, I have a passport where I can go kind of wherever I want to in the world. I don't typically think of myself as like having elevated social status in the American context, but like in Gaza where it is landlocked, it is sea locked, 25 miles long at the widest, five miles wide, and they're just realizing that there are young people, you know, my age, but also I'm getting up there, but there are people, there are young people growing up who never had, who have no hope of ever seeing any of the world outside of that 25x5 at the most, virtually unlivable. I mean, it's, it's every, every year there's, you know, there's talk about how, you know, Gaza is on the brink of collapse. Like it's just no longer sustainable. Most of the water is dirty. Only several hours of electricity a day. And it, like there's no political solution economically just devastated. And I don't know, like that just really kind of, I don't know that it shook me. It just gave me perspective and it helped me see just by virtue of being born with a U.S. passport, you know, like what kind of opportunities that opens up for you in the larger scheme of things, in kind of a global perspective. It's hard to get that perspective, you know. It seems like that part of the world is often in the news for the wrong reasons, you know, the latest conflict, the latest whatever attack, what so forth. When we see those things, you know, what are ways that we can respond? What's a proper perspective we can have regardless of, you know, everybody's differing opinions, whatever. I'm sure there's plenty of different opinions watching this. But what's some ways we can bring some clarity and some, maybe some Jesus attitude, I guess. You know, when we see these things in the news, because it is kind of disturbing, regardless. Yeah, it's a good question. And I really don't feel like I have a whole lot of like really insightful something perspective to bring. One of the things, if anything, kind of the emotion that I felt living in Jerusalem, and especially during times of turmoil, was just a kind of helplessness. Like here I am coming from the States. I'm getting introduced to these political conflicts. This situation has been just embedded for so long. And like coming away with just the feeling of helplessness, like you look at the disparity of reporting. And, you know, this is nothing new in American news, like polarization, but like you look at like how it's reported in, you know, Palestinian media versus how it's reported in Israeli media. It's just, it's a different story, right? Like what actually happened. And so like, even like it calls into question your ability to even understand, right? Like, what is actually going on here? So I don't know. I would just, it's not clarifying the question at all. But I mean, just like that kind of helplessness, helplessness. But I think being, again, being quick to hear, slow to speak, it's easy to come into these things, especially if you have preformed ideas, all this is what happened. You know, Hamas is doing this, and you know, so Israel has the right to do this. And so, and then you miss the complexity that's there. You miss the human element that's there. Always, always, you know, talking about Jesus perspective, you know, recognize the tragedy of conflict, of war, of death, regardless of what you think is justified and what's not. So that's, yeah, I would say that's, that's the biggest thing. But also, like, people think about, you know, the land there, especially Jerusalem. Jerusalem is particularly hard. Like sometimes we, we could, you know, we just needed to escape to like, you know, the coastal cities, you know, like Tel Aviv and Haifa and those just like Jerusalem is very intense. Like, because it's so deeply embedded in religion, you have Islam, you have Christianity, you have Judaism, obviously the three major players there. But also recognize that it's not always, you know, Molotov cocktails and you know, tear gas. Like, there are other realities. And I would just recommend if you ever, if you ever visit, I know that tourism is a big thing in Israel, if you ever visit, like, you know, spend some time on the other side of the wall, wherever your political sympathies lie, like you spend some time on the other side of the wall. In most cases, for our people, it's, you know, see the land of the Bible and like, and all that. But, you know, spend some time, you know, in Bethlehem, if you can spend some time in a refugee camp, like a Palestinian refugee camp, and spend some time with your brothers and sisters, your fellow brothers and sisters in Christ there, because they have, you know, they occupy a different difficult space. And I just want to use this platform, I guess, to speak for them. To raise awareness, I guess, of their, of their perspective on it. Kind of makes me want to go back again, you know, because it's been a few years since I was over there. And it was very eye-opening. You just see, whoa, like, this is really complicated and very rough. Like, this is just really hard for everybody. No easy answers. And once you start untangling, like, you know, what is, what is justice here? I mean, frankly, I, I don't, I, like, you know, I have my ideas about, you know, educate yourself on history and all that. But, yeah, at the end of the day, it's, it's really difficult. And especially coming in from the outside, I think it's important to come with a level of humility and willingness to listen. Thanks so much for taking the time to share. And, yeah, sometimes, I don't know, it's kind of random, actually, a little bit of a story. But when I was, when you're injured or something, I didn't even know you were there. And I, like, ran into you on the street. And I'm like, whoa, what are you doing here? Like, I had no, you know, it was bizarre. So anyway, it's been fun to talk about that and hear more about your time there. Sure.