 truth. I think it's important that we understand. I yeah and I you know I think you're an extremely clear thinker dealing with very difficult topics which means you're uniquely gifted I think to to help us unravel the challenges of our time and I and I'll say again if you know for folks joining us late in the show on a scale of one to ten I give this book a three thousand six hundred and twenty three so it's I really think every Catholic should read it but why don't we jump into questions about the book and I want to begin with you use you use the term modernism and but you're not I don't read you or hear you as a what a mad trad you know I like Scott Hans you know he says there's mad trads and rad trads and glad trads or something like that and he said he's a glad trad you know I don't read you as a mad trad so but you do use the term modernism which is thrown around quite a bit what does that mean yeah so classically modernism is a early 20th century late 19th century Catholic error and pious the 10th famously condemned it in Pashendi and he what he did was he described a portrait of I would say like an almost like a platonic ideal the essence of modernism and then people react nowadays and they say oh that never existed he didn't pretend that he was describing one particular person or a thing to which everyone wholeheartedly a subscribed rather he was he was portraying the essence of the movement if you will or the you know the idea and different people approach it in different ways that we have now a new modernism is what I'm claiming there are some affinities the old modernism was all about experience and also it was non-cognitive experience so it'd be you know the mind isn't the first thing in a relationship the heart without the mind that's crucial because I know everyone loves the heart and especially with divine intimacy and that's very important but we're talking about the heart without the mind is the beginning of everything what does that mean that means it's all about me mm-hmm me me because through my mind I get in touch with you and with someone else that doesn't mean it needs to be like a calculus book like abstract and all that no it's just through through seeing your gestures through interacting with you this involves sensation and the mind so modernism says no no no it begins with the emotions it's all about me and so then dogma is like oh eventually I get my mind involved and I you know get the dog was going but they don't really mean much and they all need to be oriented simply to that starting point which is me yeah so then you have to keep adapting them as times change that old formula doesn't work so the new modernism is similar in a couple of respects so not in the technical sense but in the couple of respects for instance dogmatic evolutionism if I need to change it I change it there was a cardinal who just said you know sodomy is you know the church was wrong about sodomy so now we need to update that's example of evolutionism also I do think the me c'est moi it's all about me how so the number of themes in the book basically all gravitate around a denial that our life now is a pilgrimage of preparation now to heaven or hell now I'll grant that sometimes that gets me tired and and maybe a little bit scared too and can seem like a drag like life can seem like a drag and but we know we're not thinking rightly when we do that it's a temptation but better is thinking of you know wedding day preparation or you know the the weeks building up to the wedding day that's what's going on are we ready to receive um the god as our loving father as intimate spouse yeah that's what we're getting ready for so that's why these stakes are so high I just thought today a little bit of cold shower and I'm thinking oh man this is such a pain in the neck uh it wasn't that long honestly but and then I thought well god I guess you're not cheap you know why do you why is life so hard you're not cheap we have to climb a mountain if I have to climb a 14k or and that's awesome god's more awesome anyway I'm sorry I'm going on and on but so the new modernism it kind of makes everything cozy and cushy and there's no hell um but there is a heaven uh it's not a rigorous heaven it's not it's not exalted everybody gets there of course yeah and we can enjoy life really a lot and you know have your cake now and then eat it then and I know that we we sometimes we're too grumpy and we're too sour and you know this life is supposed to be an awakening of beauty for us but it is also a pilgrimage so that's what the new modernism says nope you're going to heaven period or um and so you don't need to become like you don't need to convert you don't need to follow christ you don't and and what if what if what if you're trying to follow christ but you seem to not be able to do his commandment ah justifications by faith alone easy way out and I know there's more to say on that how about um you know there's all the new sins contraception fornication masturbation sodomy so those either a lot of uh prelates are saying ah it's not a sin anymore so we're going to heaven it's easy so so this gets us to the title of the book because I think it's important to understand what false mercy is versus true mercy because a lot of people and I mean we talk to a lot of people you know um I care for a lot of hearts that are breaking because of the condition of their children um and you know the spiritual condition of their children um temporal condition you know the choice is made and so a lot of people look and say well what do I do you know I I love this child who's chosen this path right I and and we didn't raise him or her this way but that's where they are how do we keep the bridge open how do we you know how do we understand what god teaches in his church and follow his path and still help our kids right so what is false mercy and what is true mercy and we have to understand the difference we have about two minutes we can catch more after the break before we keep going false mercy and true mercy true mercy is based on true love where I will I want to be with you and I want your good it's a kind of a combination I want to be with you and I want you to be well and that means you need to relate to others well and obviously the chief other who is almighty god so that's what we're hoping for not for you to be sitting on the couch and I I'm affectionate towards you but you're just you know playing video games on the couch not relating not entering relationship so true mercy is based on true love which wills the good of the other and the other to be in relationship false mercy says it doesn't false mercy starts with that affection I want to be with you and I want you to have it well but I don't want your conversion or I'm not going to press I know that there's a lot of different ways we could put it but I'm not going to get into the fact that you need conversion right and it's because I don't want to judge you all right so but that doesn't do any good for the meth addict for someone who can't relate who's just playing video games or addicted to porn yeah it and really it I would say it's not a true love you that's right I to me most expression of false mercy comes out of the of desire to avoid conflict that necessarily comes when we have to face truths that we don't like and so we we that we value the we value excessively the relational aspect of how two humans interact but we are not and we want to preserve that at all costs and we don't want the pain and we don't want to alienate the other person but what we don't understand is that if the other person doesn't know the one of you know in whom all things were created and hold together that they're going to end up in hell for eternity and I think fundamentally if you don't believe in a real substantive and present way in the eternal destiny of the soul and the consequences of sin then you know what's going to trump all your conversations is how you feel about one another rather than what's true so after the break we're going to talk a little more about this because I think it's really important we're here with Dr. Christopher Malloy false mercy recent heresies discerning the catholic church we'll be right back so we went to 13 so we need to do 12 and a half on the next segment on you on your markets that go this is danna sephany Burke welcome back to divine intimacy radio today we are talking to the author Christopher Malloy of a an extraordinary book did I say extraordinary you did I think it was fantastic you've been kind of gushing I've been I just love this book started gushing before we got into the studio I know I was telling Stephanie gosh everybody's got to read this false mercy recent heresies discerning the catholic church so before the break Christopher we were just talking about this I think it's I think the fundamental reason we allow ourselves to get away with defaulting only to the relationals I just don't think we really believe that people go to hell or why they go to hell yeah and I would say also everyone loves hugs I love it I love you know relatives where we can hug and just chat about you know we don't have to be on you know eggshells about say political differences how you're coming down on you know vaccines those are important issues but we all know we just kind of want to just be with each other but with regard to God just being with each other well meanwhile God is like the sun that's ignored and we're just in our little home chatting with each other I'm sorry but my hug won't save you and won't answer the depths of your needs unless it is a hug coming from a relationship with God it's almost like we set our sights too low and we we only have that kind of low level I want to say you know animal type affection with a little bit of rationality but we don't have the have you wondered about where we're going and I can't be your friend I can't be a real honest good friend willing you the good unless I love God if I don't let's just say you're you're struggling between some moral issue and feeling good about yourself I'm going to say feel good about yourself so I'm going to send you off the cliff to hell that great is you know so my affection for you is ruining you that's love that's not real love that's right and Stephanie you started out with a great question so many parents are in that and God willing I won't have to deal with that but you know we all have our crosses I have a friend who left one of these cities on the west coast that's you know going the crazy lifestyle and he literally left because one of his children went that lifestyle and they stood firm they said you will not bring your same-sex friend home she will not come here but we love you you are welcome anytime in our home she is not welcome because of the way you relate and but you have to be modest etc etc they stood firm I don't know how many years that that girl is now taking care of a relative and she's on the mend now I'm not saying and maybe it happens as as nicely as that like before they're 30 or so but it's fidelity and affection the combination we need both and that that's a burden yeah I think the love Dan likes to say love builds a bridge over which truth can pass I love that and so we hold firm to the truth we live the truth we don't compromise the truth but we love sacrificially you know we're always keeping that door open so that because we know our prayers are efficacious we know God is listening to us and and so we know that eventually the hounds of heaven are going to chase down that loved one especially if they've been baptized confirmed they have the sacrament so that that's germinating within them right the Lord's constantly calling them back so we may not see it in this lifetime but we keep praying that that conversion comes because the Lord is faithful and he's going to track down his loved ones we just hope it happens you know before they leave earth right so that's that's difficult part but I know there are many that languish in that and I can I just want to say with without any ambiguity if if you love someone who's who's in habitual sin and you and you and your goal is to make them comfortable you will help them to hell and you're going to be accountable for that and I would also say you don't really love them and I just want to say it again you don't love them you don't love them with the love of God because the love of God says I love you I want you in my life and I even love you as you are but I want to help you to be free but I won't leave you where you are I won't leave you where you are I want to help you to be free and so authentic mercy I think is that a good description uh absolutely of authentic mercy yeah and so and it's also not lame because you're praying for and when it's appropriate sometimes some people are in a situation where you can't all you can do is live the faith yourself and you can't speak to them right that might be for decades but right but they will know I mean I have relatives who say you know what I'm aware and and like I'll I'll say something about you know we've got seven kids they're like yeah yeah yeah and I love it and you are so obviously an inspiration for me but just please don't talk about it I had one that told me that so um fine I want you know so but I'm not gonna I'm not gonna help you deflect as it were the call of God to to waking up you know so I want to shift to something that may be a little unusual for our show in our audience but I think it's important in this book you speak about the hermeneutic of continuity which I think is it sounds super technical and obscure but it has profound implications and a lot of our traditionalist friends after we talked before the show are are you know deriding this concept but I think it's part of the DNA of the church and it has always been what is the hermeneutic of continuity and why does it matter with respect to false mercy yeah so the hermeneutic of continuity means that when the church teaches she's always building on previous foundations she's not radically changing uh what she believes and there are there are infallible teachings and there are non infallible teachings infallible teachings are always true never gonna change non infallible teachings we expect them that they're actually really true um it's not impossible that some of them could be phrased awkwardly or even be an error okay but we don't expect them to be like that that would be very rare and so we always had this mindset of continuity now that means for instance when you're looking at the second Vatican council that you don't look at it as though yeah you know the rebels um the rebels were able to change those backward medieval ways of the the older Catholics I don't believe in the old church I believe in the new church there's a lot of people that say that and even I'm not saying that they're trying to operate out of malice that's just that's their mentality grad school a lot of my professors said pious the 12 said x we believe why rupture so I remember starting to scratch my head after a while and saying well let me read what pious the 12 said oh that looks pretty authoritative then I look at that what Vatican 2 said I say now I don't see a rupture here uh and and you guys are interpreting it as a rupture so once they say that it's like a rubber band once they say rupture these are the rebels I'm talking I'm calling them rebels they just slingshot into weirdness and so that's what's going on now sodomy's okay catholic church is just a privileged way um you know there's just many ways to to heaven this is sorry this is not our faith uh so you got those kind of rebels but then you have almost an opposite reaction on the other side well if that's what Vatican 2 means I reject it so there's a lot of and I know that's a little bit simplistic I guarantee the book is not simplistic but um but that is a little bit of the ingredient what's going on as opposed to saying wait a minute no there's there's like a new way of expressing things here in the council there's a lot of riches in the faith that are explored in a beautiful way it and it's not as clear cut as say a Baltimore catechism or something like that so if you're looking for a nothing nuts and bolts you know maybe pouring over those documents isn't as helpful for you maybe just you know a john harden catechism Baltimore catechism I love those things absolutely love them because boom boom boom just right to the heart but if you're looking for like say touring the beauty what is the catholic church well it's quite mysterious deep and thick and and so there's a lot of beauty there to explore it's not simple um so Vatican 2 has a lot going on about it there are some ambiguous ambiguous phrases where you could say huh why why did they put it that way and then a lot of people are interpreting it like this but that's that's a totally contradicting to this other thing well it's very helpful in interpreting Vatican 2 to say well here's the tradition here's the infallible teachings we believe them so Vatican 2 is obviously not contradicting these yeah whatever it means you know probably means this maybe it means that but it's not going to contradict the foundation I think fundamentally the hermitage continuity isn't a method that says what is new now reinterprets what is old it's the exact opposite is what came before helps us to understand you know if anything's ambiguous because of human frailty or even you know nefarious intent we must live and say this is ambiguous this is what was before therefore it has to be this doesn't justify the ambiguity or even the nefarious intent it just says I'm not you know I'm I'm gonna live according to what the church is always taught and you know the council said this and therefore I you know I believe what the church has always taught I'm gonna keep moving forward amen you have a question you're good so okay so I think you know I'd strongly recommend folks if you're struggling with this question and even the council I think this book not only of course beautifully covers a lot of issues that we're facing today but it also gives what I would call a measured wise and historically connected understanding of how to deal with the problems that came after the council which weren't you know there's a lot of post hoc ergo proctor hoc you know uh false logic that says well because it the council came before but listen the council was the was was birthed by those who were before you know so it it's you know all of those cardinals and we're we're celebrating the latin mass you know before the council so we have a real issue we have a real problematic view I think in the traditionalist realm of how to understand the council and I think it it's a it's a it's a distraction away from our mission and how it is that we can help the church draw more deeply from the wells of tradition so we're out of time I hate that because false mercy recent heresies distorting the Catholic church by Christopher Malloy is a top 10 book you've got to you've got to get it you've got to tell your friends about it and you got to read it it will equip you more effectively in my opinion than most that comes out of the traditionalist realm to understand and and and know how to deal with and help the church heal from the problems that we're facing today so thank you for the book and thank you for being on the show you're welcome thanks so much for having me absolutely thank you for the great conversation until next time may the god of peace make you perfect in holiness may he preserve you whole and entire spirit soul and body irreproachable at the coming of our lord jesus christ amen amen god I hate to go so brief but