 I'm here to our community stream today with our very special guest, Anne-Marie Scott. And before we go and jump into talking using open source tools as key infrastructure, I just wanted to reassure you that it's not Sunday. You're not listening to DS106, but there's no promises whether there might be silliness happening here on the stream. So we're so thrilled that you're here. And if you're joining us in Discord for the live chat, then feel free to say hello. Anne-Marie and I just have. So yeah, welcome to you. And hello, Anne-Marie. Hello, Maren. This feels awfully familiar. What did you say to me about two seconds ago before we went live? It's like DS106, but with pictures. With... It's like television, Maren. It's not radio, it's television. It's not radio, it's television. Well, it's more like you should be radio. People in the flame hosting know what they're doing. They've let us on the telly. I mean, I don't know. For me, it's Friday afternoon. Jim isn't working, so it's all fair game. I'll do what we like then, yes. Friday afternoon for me too, but we were also just saying that. Friday afternoon for me and Boddy, I think my head is still somewhere in Western Canada. I arrived back from three weeks in Vancouver. Sun time this week. I'm not entirely sure when it was. Well, thank you so much for joining us, particularly on the back of long haul flights. And we're obviously keen to hear about all the things you're currently working on. And I know that there are some fantastic Canadian projects that you are involved in. So yeah, really excited to hear about that. So what we're hoping to talk to you about today is like, a bit of a mix between how did you get to where you are now? And we only have 45 minutes for this whole thing. So we're gonna have to make some edits. The plane flight covered that too much today. Wait, wait, there we go, yeah. And then also, I want to give a big shout out to Open Education Week, because that's happening next week for us now as we record this, I think. And we had Alan Noreen on one of these a couple of weeks ago, kind of giving a preview. And I know you are very involved in all things open. And we'd love to hear a bit about some examples of projects or developments you are currently involved in, kind of thinking about the main topic for the session today. So yeah, should we start on with the kind of, how did you get to where you are now? Oh my God, my edtech origin hero story was how you phrased it, I think. That's right, absolutely. It was interesting thinking about that. Because there's two bits to it. There's the open bit to it. And then there's the edtech bit to it. And they're different, they're not the same thing. So I will skip over, I worked in private industry for a while after I graduated, didn't like that very much, right away. Came back into the University of Edinburgh in 2002 to work on a student portal project, which was, it was a homegrown project. It was one of these collaborative, you know, institutional projects that when we used to do that sort of thing, when the sector gave money to universities to develop systems that they shared between them, crazy stuff. And then we did that and then we built the thing and we launched it and it was a student portal. And then we wanted to do an enterprise portal. We wanted to do one for staff and alumni and visitors and one big thing. And then we thought, well, should we build that? Building that first one was quite hard, by the way. So do we want to build that? Or should we look for a solution maybe that already exists? And so we had to look around. And I remember coming down to a choice between two things. Oracle portal, excuse me while a little bit of sick comes into my mouse and U-Portal, which was an open source tool developed in the US, but again came out of the university space. And we went with U-Portal. We went with the open source one and I spent a number of years then building out Edinburgh's enterprise portal offering across alumni and staff and students and a whole range of things. And there's like a whole other story of my life in that space. And then I, for a number of years, while I was at Edinburgh I inherited teams and systems that needed a bit of love and love them and fix them up and move down from them. And so the next thing, big thing, there were lots of bits and pieces around this, but the next big thing that came my way was identity management. And then I inherited a team and a platform, both of which needed a little bit of love. The platform scared me a lot. I used to get regular reports saying, you know, running 100% CPU for like nine hours a night and might crash and burn. And it was how everybody in the university got their accounts for all the major systems. I felt quite unwell about that. So again, we redeveloped it. We built an enterprise identity management system. And again, we had a look at what was out there, what solutions already existed, came very close to using Sun Microsystems solution, which had just been open sourced at that point in time. And then Oracle, a little bit of sick, came off into my mouth again, turned up again and bought some and next I'll look back up. And we ended up building our own, but using some substantial pieces of open source middleware, including a tool called Group. And I learned a lot in those two projects about big enterprise systems and about using open sources, key infrastructure. There were other bits in that big identity and access management architecture that already existed, things like Open LDAP and open source single sign-on solution. And I got involved in various communities related to these projects, including one called Java Architecture Special Interest Group, snappy title. Did that have a fun acronym? They started in 1999. I got involved with them in about 2003 and stayed involved with them until around 2009, 2010. When I stepped back fully from a lot of the enterprise portal stuff, I was heavily in, I was coming to the end of the identity management stuff as well. And then, yeah, Red and Brad, another team, an area that needed a little bit of love was the ATEC team. And in 2006, I'd started to do Edinburgh's MSc and e-learning, now the MSc in digital education that was on the very first cohort of that. I'd started to do that program. And so when the e-learning, edtech thing came up, I thought, oh, yeah, thank you very much. I've hadn't seen that. I've been reading about that. That's very interesting. And it had lots of interaction because enterprise portals link to all of these things. Identity management is how all the accounts and all of these tools get put together. I also worked on a few open source edtech solutions with Jen Ross. People may know who I'm talking to. Where is Dr. Jen Ross from Edinburgh when we were young and fresh-faced and innocent? We worked on an open source portfolio tool together, for example. So I've been swirling around this area, very interested in it, doing a lot of the stuff that made it accessible to the institution and made it work at scale, doing a lot of stuff in open. And then, yeah, I moved into that edtech space around sort of 2010 and stayed there until I started. And stayed there until I left to go to Alberta in 2020. Yeah, but the JCIG thing in the early... I'm trying to think of my dates now and not fluff them up. In the early 2010s, JCIG merged with the Sakai Foundation and became a perio, the Perio Foundation. And I stepped back in nearly six years ago now. And I've been in the board chair since 2018. So I'm coming to the end of my second term on the board there, and I'll be stepping down sometime this summer. So that's a very long-winded way of saying, I've got an edtech background, and I've got an open background, an open-source software background, particularly that predates my time in edtech. And so, it gave me that overarching, kind of enterprise view of how open can fit into an enterprise and how you can use open at scale, as well as in some of the small areas that like the open-source portfolio thing that I did with Jen. So I did things like the blogging platform at Edinburgh, which wasn't just a learning technology blog, it was WordPress. It wasn't just deployed as a learning technology tool. It was there for public engagement research. It's an enterprise tool. It was part of the institutions. It is an enterprise tool. It's part of the institution's web publishing strategy as much as it's part of its teaching and learning strategy, part of its research outreach strategy. So I got this kind of big picture thinking from that stuff, but also that knowledge that you can use open tools is big infrastructure. Anyway, that's a roundly love story. Yeah, I love that. I really love that. And we were talking recently within our team at Reclaim around how people find their way into open education into edtech and where that overlaps. And in this month, later this month, we actually were gonna have a dedicated kind of session all about sort of edtech origin stories. And I think it's definitely, you know, it's so interesting to me to think about how we bring all these different interests that we have in life into that space, you know, because there's so many different nuances between, you know, sort of the legal, political, there's the climate aspect, you know, there's social justice piece, there's lots of creativity involved. So I think lots of people who are kind of in the current generation of kind of open edtech kind of people, you know, have come from different backgrounds. You know, very few of us have started in edtech outright and then stayed there for the, you know, we've kind of built the degrees and the pathways for professionalization for people, you know, who are now starting to enter the profession. Yeah. Now, I think the variety of origin stories is really interesting. And of course, we don't stay the same either. So although I mean, I have a literature background and I know you don't have a technical background, either many of us have a humanities background, surprising number of us have a humanities background and not a sciences or social sciences background. But though I came to it through a technology route, I've never been a hands-on programmer. I've always been a kind of systems thinker, coordinator, doer of things. But of course, after I left Edinburgh, I moved to Athabasca University in Canada, which is an open university. So that, you know, open gets bigger again in my head at that point. And that's where a lot of the pieces around equity and access really become quite, you know, that's the focus then. Technology where you do it is one of the tools in which you do it, but an open university. And when I say an open university, I mean an open admissions policy, so anybody can come and study it undergraduate level. You know, it really changes your thinking. And I wanted that, you know, from a very traditional research university, highly competitive, maybe, I mean, it's a large university, so it's got diversity in that sense. But in terms of the broad sweep of people who comes through its doors, I mean, open universities. It's a different, yeah. They're different, they're very, very different. And then a really exciting and creative and interesting kind of a way, and I will probably touch on some of that. Yeah, absolutely. And I think that open piece, you know, and as you say, things don't stay the same and we always have to, you know, there are always new communities to reach out to and new people with whom to win that argument about open. And I think that's one of the things I've been really enjoying, you know, working with the team here at Reclaim is to kind of learn more about the capacity building and the kind of, you know, the skills and the knowledge that people need to use technology, you know. Yes, you know, ultimately, you do need the infrastructure. You need the service, you need the hosting, but you do need all the other stuff on top of that as well. And you need to have, you know, staff who learn about all the possibilities in order to then make some choices, you know, with their learning technologists, with their academics. But talking about an open piece, so we did say next week is Open Education Week. And, you know, it's a big, exciting, like I'm looking forward to, I think I'm joining at least one of the sessions that Alan Marine is organizing for OE Global. And I'm really excited about that conversation, but I've been kind of thinking about, you know, what do I think are like the big issues right now that I'm focused on and that I'm interested in when it comes to Open? And I guess I wonder what your sort of, you know, like you have lots of different projects going on. You have a wide portfolio, but if you had to pick, you know, well, you do, I know. And, you know, it's a global picture for you and in your Open Appario Foundation chair role, you have an even bigger view. But if you had to pick sort of one or two issues that are currently, you know, on the forefront of your mind when it comes to Open as an education, what are those kind of topics? Well, so I think it's fair to say, or it's important to say, I haven't been in a university setting full-time since March last year. So that has changed. And I've been working part-time for some universities as a consultant, but I've spent quite a bit of my time working with Perio and I'm also on the board of the Open Source Initiative now as well. We don't know who OSI are. They are the global stewards of the Open Source definition. It's 25 years old now. And one of the main things they do is scrutinize and approve licenses for Open Source software. So the MIT license, GNU, various others, and they give them the stamp of approval. They compare them against that Open Source definition and say, yes, this adheres to, or no, this does not. So I've been doing quite a lot of work with them. So my focus when I'm thinking about education is a bit different now. So, you know, I don't have a project in an institution that we've been working towards the Wicked Chair in Open Education Week. But I've really been thinking a lot about, through that work with a Perio and OSI, I've been spending a lot of time in the broader Open Source community. And what I'm really seeing is a fundamental disconnect. So I went to a big Open Source conference in Raleigh called All Things Open. It's one of the biggest that happens in the US in the Open Source scene, the open source development scene. It's about 4,000 people. And I walk in and I get my Google lanyard and I go walk around the, it's not really a vendor hall, but I walk around it and there's Microsoft and there's Salesforce and there's AWS and like every big tech company is there. And I'm there with some colleagues, one of whom has just been to Educause a couple of weeks before and he walked around the Shark Tank at Educause and all of those same companies were there. So we go to something like Educause, I did in this year, but you know, we go to something like Educause and there was no conversation about Open Source. None of them. And then we go to All Things Open. Not all the same companies are there. And I'm looking at Open Source programme offices in big Silicon Valley companies that are run by people who are kind of fundamental and foundational in Open Source's history, people who started Apache and that kind of thing. And I struggle with that cognitive dissonance that there is an enormous, vibrant Open Source development world out there. And now that we're hitting into regulation of Open Source software, we have to do software build materials to understand what's in a software stack. So we're starting to get information about how much Open Source is used to build commercial software. Between 70 and 90% of commercial software is built on Open Source. Yeah, I go into universities and I talk in universities and it's like tumbleweed. There's such a disconnect there that there's all this innovation happening in one space, all built on Open Source, all enabled by Open Source. The European Union has costed up some of the economic benefit of Open Source and millions of euros. Yeah. We're not in our education system. We are, by the way, we're supposedly training computer scientists who are going to go and work in these fields as well. So I really struggled with that disconnect in this year. We really felt it. I knew it was there, but I've really felt it sharply this week. I think I've posted something on master on at one point saying I'm just a girl standing in front of a 4,000 person Open Source software conference and I'm just begging higher education to believe it. I hear you, I really hear you. And it is in lots of different ways, I think, that sort of disconnect plays out all the time, even with quite small scale projects within a university, let alone when you talk about enterprise systems. And it continues to be kind of perceived, I think, as somewhat of a niche, like a nice to have, like if you have a surplus of money and time, then it's okay to play with open things, but somehow higher education or education as a whole doesn't seem to get that, they're missing out on where to get more time and money from, which would be through the open source tools and resources and infrastructure. So it doesn't, there always seems to be so much more scope for advocacy, no matter how many reports we write about textbook savings. And as you say, like that EU study about open source savings as well, it's just incredible. Well, and that study actually wasn't about savings, that was about what open source generates economic, because by having a vibrant open source ecosystem, you can build on it, you can reuse it. So it doesn't just save you money, it allows you to innovate faster and it generates, it's got economic productivity. And the reason I bang on about this, if I put my education back on again, is there are things that digital can do to enable access to education, to do really creative and interesting things for people who can't physically come to campuses, for, I think about again, open universities, they're largely online because they're serving a really varied population, many of whom can't physically come to campus because they have caring responsibilities about the disability or money is tight or there's a whole range of reasons in there. They work as well as study. And digital is a real enabler and when deployed thoughtfully and sensitively is a real enabler on the pandemic aside. And so, companies who make a profit in this space, and I've no problem with people making a profit in this space, reclaimer of commercial company, not anti-commercial, but they go where there's a market. And some of the things we want to do that we're important to do for quality education, don't make money, they probably never make money, they're a bit niche, but they're game changers for some of the students who can work with them. And so, I really think this kind of strong bias towards procured, vendor-driven, low risk to the institution, offshore all your outsource, all your life, all your risk to something else. We miss something about access and inclusion and learning age in there. And that's the space that open plays in, the open education plays in, but the open source can enable. I really worry about the kind of homogenization and dumbing down of digital education if we don't allow open into that space. We don't own it ourselves. I know, yeah. And this is an Anglophone problem, to be clear, what you mentioned, the kind of broad sweep that I get to see through the work I do with these foundations, this isn't what it looks like in parts of Europe. If you speak another language and you have the privilege of working with other communities, this isn't what it looks like in other countries, it doesn't have to be this way. The other ways of doing this. Yeah, I hear you, I really do. And I think that, you know, that capacity piece, like building that capacity and continuously, you know, supporting staff, you know, in experimenting, you know, in failing, like, you know, again, in a commercial context, it's completely a given that if you experiment with new technology, you know, a certain percentage of it will always go wrong. And in education, it's as if like, nothing can ever go wrong. And you're like, well, you're never gonna innovate at scale if your expectation is that every single project you do will always be successful at everything for everyone. That's not how the game is played. And the staff development piece and the expertise piece is so strong, you know, and that's what I really admire the work. Like some of my colleagues like Taylor and Amanda do, you know, to try and draw out some case studies of saying, look, this is how this institution did this step by step using exactly these tools and they are free to use and you can use them too and hear us how, you know, because that piece, that is always important, isn't it? That sort of capacity building piece, you know, that is, I think that's the magic dust for me. So I want to talk about one of my favorite ever things I get to do, also for no money. I seem to, all my favorite things don't pay anything. I don't have the things that pay money to like, pay for the fun things I do. And I mean, I'm guessing a number of people listening to this, I don't discord or you might watch it later, going to have heard of the open ATC, the open ed tech. Collaborative co-op depends on what day of the week. Yeah, we're big fans of the open ATC. We're not strictly a co-op, but we try to operate along co-op principles based in Canada for, it's a set of shared platforms for the whole of the British Columbian post-secondary system. And we take a lot of inspiration from the work that reclaim and others do. We were writing a report over the last year, and I'll try to find a link to it and put it in Discord because it's a great meeting. It's got some lovely chicken illustrations. But we were writing a report up because we've had a number of years of funding from BC campus to run this project now. And we're really trying to tease out the benefits and the impact. So, yes, it's a shared set of platforms, primarily WordPress and Matter, most other things have come and gone. And I think that's also part of that capacity building. We played with some things, did they have utility or not? The sector had a chance to play with them. Some were worth keeping, some were not, but that's all good learning and everybody got to do that. But the core platforms that have persisted are Mattermost and WordPress. But what we do on WordPress is not just provide free WordPress hosting to lots of institutions in the province. We provide the ability to create and share templates. So, if somebody develops a really cool site, maybe something that their students are going to use, their students can clone it and use it and distribute it. But anybody else on the platform can as well. And if somebody creates something really cool, we can also help genericize it and create a generic template. So there's one there, for example, from mapping projects that now can take and run a student collaborative mapping project with it's got a whole bunch of tools baked into it. So, that point you made about the community building and the learning, and we would not just got a platform that allows people to share best practices in running WordPress. And we've got WordPress admins chatting away in the background. We've got a platform that allows learning designs to be encoded in templates and to be shared in the whole sector. So there's layers of sharing and capacity building. There's technical capacity building. There's through the institutional reps that we have who do the kind of middle layer of proxying between institutions and us as a leadership team. And then that templating piece and that sharing of learning design across and learning designs and learning patterns across the whole sector. It's phenomenally enabling and a huge piece of capacity building. And it costs, I mean, our grants have been $25,000 a year, Canadian, and we struggle to spend them. In terms of costing costs, it's 5,000 or less. And that it's problematic because it's obviously too small to fund properly because nobody knows how to fund. Small, cheap and incredibly impactful. Oh, I hear you. I hear you. That is, I think, another piece of the puzzle, which is the kind of, I think the open, the attractiveness of openness, I think has these challenges where it is often nearly too cheap to be seen as competitive and robust and serious. Because you're like, well, I could just be doing this for 5,000 a year. Well, the commercial vendor from platform X will come along and say, it'll cost 53,000 a year, which seems much like, that doesn't seem to be a possibility that you could do it for 10% of the cost. But there's also, I think, some universities, and I think in my experience, UK universities have this in spades. There is a kind of syndrome of, it's not here, it can't possibly be suitable good enough or hitting the sweet spot for my specific students because my students are completely unique with very unique challenges that no one else in the world can have a template for. And while I empathize with that view, it is a challenge when you want to try and scale up things like that. Yet, right now, all of those universities are being serviced by a very small, tight number of very generic tools. There are three big LMS vendors who've got the market switched up. There are probably two and a half video streaming lecture recording platforms. I mean, it's not a diverse marketplace. So we're all different and special, but somehow we all managed to use the same fairly generic and relatively interchangeable set of tools. Well, I had a low point this week in my use of video conferencing platforms in that I met a new AI, obviously a super powerful coaching tool that gave me bronx as I was doing housekeeping announcements which drove me around the bend. So yeah, I'm not gonna go into that because we'll still be here. Let's talk about AI just for two seconds because I just want to get a very quick plug for- As long as you speak for about AI around- Yeah, no, we'll be the AI's talking. No, so one of the other pieces of work that I've been involved in in the last year is through the OSI and the work that OSI is doing on trying to come up with an equivalent definition to the open source software definition for open source AI. Because, and we're being funded to do this by a number of big industry players in recognition of our stewardship of the open source definition and that we are a knowledgeable and neutral organization who can do this because it's obviously vested interests in what that definition comes out like and strong opinions. And that's all fine. People need to make money. We want, I've just talked about the benefit of open source is it's enormous economic productivity. We want AI, the AI space to offer a lot of the same benefit but it needs, we think, that same fundamental definition of what an open source AI is or what is, yeah, what is the definition of open source AI that then various legal documents can be defined against. Yes, this is or no, this is not based on a set of characteristics and that has been, again, just a fascinating set of discussions. There was some internal drafting, we released the first public version last year all things open and a big launch for it and every month now there is a new draft up on the OSI website and, but around it, a whole bunch of discussions. We did a call for proposals for a webinar series as well and the recordings of all of them were there. Just so many creative thinkers in the software world, in the IP world, in the legal world, all in the ethics space. We've been talking, we are involved with organisations like the Digital Public Goods Alliance who are a UN-affiliated organisation looking at technology as a digital public good and obviously open fits in that space. Just beautifully. It's been a fascinating set of conversations. I've learned a huge amount and I've had a lot of exposure to the right of the smart people and being part of discussions with people far, far smarter than me. But again, I think it's kind of fundamental to what we want in education, which I think is some of the ability to own our own education system to build some of the things that we think are important to have that commercial companies are never going to build for us or might have a vested interest in building something that's actually quite inappropriate for us. But we need that open source ecosystem to be able to do that. And we also want, because lots of research happens in this space, we want to be able to release it and share it openly and build upon it. Not just for tech, but for bigger purposes than that. There's a whole enabling open science agenda in here. So again, I'm doing it with that education purpose. That's why I care, care about public education. I care about public education is now very digital. So I care about things that public education uses as a form of digital public good. So I think they should be. And I also don't think, you know, if open education is about agency fundamentally, then you, you know, and it's digital, then you need digital agency. So this is something like that. So I want to get that work, because I think it's important. And again, I think, you know, education institutions should be engaged with it and aware of it. Hi, agency is a really key word here. And I can see like a few comments coming through on Discord. People whom what you're saying is really resonating with. We are coming towards the end of time. So I want to give you a chance to give a shout out to any projects or project that you are currently involved in that we haven't had time to mention yet. Anything else that's going on that you'd like to still give a give a shout out to or talk a little bit about? Yeah, well, there's a couple of things. One is a shameless plug. So I'll say that to the end. Shameless Packs, that's super welcome. Well, as well as the OSI stuff. The other project that we're kicking off at the moment, and I want to give a heartfelt thanks to Reclaim and Jim for giving us a domain name and some free hosting. Haven't set the word for a site up yet, is an Iperio project called, we're going to produce a kind of state of open source in higher education community report. And there's a number of different areas of research that we're going to engage with to just try and map out some of the landscape of open source use in higher education and also kind of attitudes and understanding amongst various leaders in higher education source. In many other places in open source, you'll see the state of open source in kind of reports, but they're very broad. They're very big. They're either country or technology. And we want to do that higher education slice because that's what our foundation is very focused on. Because we know that 70% to 90% of what you are buying is built on open source. So when you say you don't use open source, you don't know what you've bought. And you don't know how fundamental open source is to keeping the thing you bought running. By the way, you might want to think about your own supply chain there. So I think that that is going to, I really hope that's going to be a talking point, that it's going to dispel some myths and it's going to change the conversation a little bit. But it's an enormous piece of work as well. And we're in the process of setting the project up, setting up the project structure. We've got a whole bunch of co-authors who have agreed to assist us with it. We have a whole framework and a methodology for the research we want to do. I'm slightly scared by how much there is to do. And we want to, if we can, get some first cut of some of the work out by EDUCAUSE towards the end of the year. Wow, that's very exciting. I think it is. And what we're also hoping is we'll work out what slice we can actually do. Because it's impossible to do this globally. So what we also hope we'll do is create a kind of methodology that other people could replicate in their own area as well if they wanted to look at what it looks like in their jurisdiction. So that's the not shameless plug. And then the shameless plug is an OER24 in core. Oh, cool. Which, I don't know, was there something on Reclaim TV recently about that? I wouldn't know. No, absolutely. We only wrote to OER for like a month. I mean, nobody's heard of this one. I'm going to talk about open source program offices. Because I haven't talked about open source enough in the last 45 minutes or however long it's been. Again, oh, some guy called Martin Weller wrote this book called 25 Years and then the introduction to it. He talked about how education forgets its history. We go round in these loops again. We forget our own history and history repeats itself. We keep making the same mistakes. And one of the things that I'm seeing cropping up, particularly in the US, are open source program offices. And the story is that these were some smart person thought them up in industry as a way of creating a strategic management office for open source cause 70% to 90% of what you're building is relying upon it. So you probably want to manage that immediately. So it's about how you contribute back, licensing. They're often there to support that. They're internal advocates in companies. They're also often there to bridge the gap between a company and a community that whose product they're relying on ultimately as it was contributing to. And it looks different in different places. There's no one-size-fits-all in this. But we're told the story that this is an industry thing that we are going to, that is now being adopted into education, Sloan are funding quite a lot of them, with a real focus on open science and open research, at least the open research, including software architects. Wonderful, lovely, no problem with any of that. Where did open source come from again? Well, industry. Well, industry, what organization? What is MIT? What is it? I think that's a university. I think, do you remember OSS Watch that was based in Oxford, do you remember? Absolutely. I mentioned, Jayce, earlier, that started in 1999. That was around the time that the first one of these hospitals, I think Sun Microsystems, maybe, have had one of the very first. Often people benchmarked Google's in 2004, but there were some in the late 90s as well. This isn't new. I can call it to various organizations, consortiums, it's foundations like Aperio, organizations like OSS Watch, 10 years of just funding to provide a strategic open source management capability for the sector in the UK. This isn't new, and this isn't coming from industry into education. Open source came out of academia, I mean, out of the universities, and it's kind of been, as much as I want it back, I don't want to be sold it back. I don't want that narrative. I want us to understand our history and to own our history and to see this as a continuation of that history rather than yet another way in which universities should adopt industry best practices because we're some kind of laggards that need disrupting or something. So anyway, I'm going to run to that for 15 minutes OER time. Oh, I love it. And what a fantastic preview. And if you're listening to this prior to OER 24, don't miss Anne-Marie in Cork. And I'm so looking forward to seeing you there. As I say, some of my colleagues at Reclaim and myself will be there as well. We've also got our 15 minutes of fame coming up. We're going to talk about Open at Tech and community building in order to create more capacity. So I think it'll be a wonderful program. I'm really looking forward to the conference. And yeah, one Martin Weller will be there as well. So I'm making a book center. I heard a story about him that his mother once made a pair of trousers. And so we got back to our origins on DS106. So if you haven't had enough of Anne-Marie and me chatting, do find us next time we're on the radio. But for today, Anne-Marie, I'm going to wrap us up soon. So thank you so much for sharing all your expertise and excitement about OER 24 with us. It's been fabulous to have you join us for the stream. Any final words? Well, just thank you for letting me say the words open source software so many times. I'm sorry. But the defining feature of my year of self-employment slash unemployment has been the freedom to do the things that really interest me and the freedom to speak openly about them. Because in senior roles in institutions, I've always felt like I've had to, well, you work for an institution, right? So there is a framework in which you're working within and there are policies and processes that you're working within. And yeah, and it's been lovely to just be able to talk freely about some of the things that I think are really important in the public education system. I'm gonna give one final plug actually, and I'm sure they will be plugging it hard over the over open education week. And that's the H.E. for Good book that Katherine Cronin and Laura Chernovitz co-edited. They may or may not be keynote speakers at OER24. And that book is openly licensed as well. You can find it, it's published by open book publishers. The reason I highlight it is if you haven't been bored to tears already by me talking about it here, an open source procurement and European Union reports, then I've got a standout chapter in that book with Brenna Clark Gray talking about procurement. Cause we like all the hot and interesting topics. Oh, I love it. Well, if you haven't downloaded the book yet, that chapter will definitely sell it. Niche and tech topics for sure. Well, thanks again for coming on. It's been fabulous and thank you to everybody who's been on the chat. I can see a few comments out flurrying around on Discord. So we'll have a look at these now. And Anne-Marie, thank you so much for joining us and see you at OER24. And yeah, to everybody else, have a good rest of your Friday. Thanks so much for joining us. Thank you for having me. Thank you for watching and listening.