 Like the wolf will kill the animal. We are part of the nature. So you're tying in what indigenous tribes had to do in a survival situation along with we've always done it and now you're bringing in another one which is animals do it in nature. If you just stop keeping the animals, you end up with billions of animals. This is a different topic. You've got now six or seven on the table. Like if I had a bunch of human beings and they had incredible amounts of well-being and I went through and shot them all in the face and cut them up and ate them. Would that be cruel? What's about the plans then? Try to convince big companies not to overproduce food so we're not going to waste so much. So there is the first step. Yeah, so they're not going to stop overproducing if you don't stop giving them money. Why would they stop? You want to sit down with me mate? So. What's your name? Come sit down. Yeah. How are you my friend? What's your name? Thomas. Thomas, good to meet you Thomas. So we've got the sign here and it seemed to perk your interest. You were looking at it and you were like, hmm. Why I'm not. Why aren't you vegan? I don't have the time. You don't have the time? Yeah. So convenience. Yeah. It's not convenient enough for you to be vegan. Yeah. So you have to switch, literally either start to cook your own meal or you have to switch the whole family to become vegan. So you have a family? Yeah. Okay. So do you know what a vegan is? Yeah. And why would someone be vegan? What would motivate them? There's a lot of reasons to be vegan. I'm not saying it's wrong. I don't know. I'm saying it's right. It's just, you know, time. But for the, I want to know from your perspective what you think would motivate someone to be vegan. Then I want to see what. So for example for me, to be healthier. To be healthy? That's what I would do. So what do you think veganism, vegan means? Do you think it's to be healthy or do you think it's? No, it's about so many different things because you have to save the planet. You have to save the animals, you know. There we are. So the word vegan means to avoid exploitation and cruelty to animals. Okay. That's what that means. Good to know. Yeah. That's what the movement was based upon. That is what the definition of vegan is. Avoid the cruelty and exploitation of animals as far as possible and practicable. That's what a vegan is. So the next question would be, because you're saying it's practically inconvenient to do. It's not easy. It's not easy. So are you against the cruelty to animals? Of course. I mean who with the right mind wouldn't be. Exactly what I want to hear. But would you consider taking animals, breeding them to kill them for their bodies? Would you consider that cruel? No. Okay. So why not? No, because you know, it's generally people were eating meat for, you know, since the beginning. So it's not that the problem is not to eat meat. It's to make it on. So generally, you know, you go back to, let's say, America. The indigenous people. Yeah. They're only killing people with animals when they needed to eat. Nothing else. Survival. So on the survival. So they will not kill just to store, just to have more. I understand that. So that's, you know, that's when I think it's, it's not a problem. So one moment. That's when you think it's what, justified? It's not about being justified. We don't have to be justified to do this. We generally try to survive. Yes. I want to put these on the table. Survive. Okay. We've got, we've always done it. And survival. These are your two reasons that we should do this now? Yeah. Okay. So first off, let's just attack. We've always done it. We've done it for a long time. You said for, what did you say? Thousands of years. Thousands in the beginning. Yeah. So I want to ask you this question. Do you think because we've always done something, or it's always been this way, that that justifies our behavior now? No. It doesn't work for that. I would say. Because there's other things that have happened for a long time. Yeah. So generally, you know, if we only will stick to the old ways, there wouldn't be a problem now. But we didn't because people are greedy. We've become, so yeah. Well, you think it's, it wasn't a problem sticking to old ways? No. You don't think there was anything that happened in the past that was a problem? No. I'm talking about, you know, let's say they go back to the, you know, Americans. Yeah. Indigenous people. They make sure that they don't harm their animals. They don't harm the population. They don't harm Earth. They make sure that everything is just right. Yes. They have their way. Like the wolf will kill the animal. I understand. Yeah, it's fine. You know, it's the nature. We are part of the nature. Okay. So now we've got a few things here. So you're tying in what Indigenous tribes had to do in a survival situation, along with, we've always done it. Now, and now you're bringing in another one, which is animals do it in nature. So these are the three things. I'm familiar with all of these things, by the way. I'm just trying to get your reasons on the table because then I want to juxtapose or compare that, those justifications with, it's too hard. Okay. Because they seem to be the things that are coming to mind. Yeah. That's that fair? I'm being fair of your position? Yeah. Before we go ahead? Okay. Now, because we've done it for a long time, obviously there's things that have happened and slavery has happened for a long time. We've killed each other for a long time. We can't use, it's happened for a long time as a moral justification to keep doing something. It's not about morally justifying this. Well, let me get to, let me tie this into your points. But you said because Indigenous tribes did this back then for survival too, then because we've always done it and because Indigenous tribes did it and they only took what they needed, that's why we are justified in doing what we do now in civilization. No, we should, you know, it's generally... Did you see where I'm going, brother? In a civilized world, yes? We started to see the profit is more important than basic needs. So that's it, you know, generally, if we go back to produce only enough food for our survival, there wouldn't be a problem. But there's lots of problems because we overproduce the meat, we overproduce everything. And that's it. So let me ask you this, are you... We're killing the planet by that. I understand that. The planet is a big problem too. And the reason we're killing the planet is because we're growing resources to feed two animals. Oh, that's... That is one of the main reasons, land use. Another thing, yeah. So like, I think it's close to 90% of land use. So we've got like 83% of farm land use on Earth is to grow crops or to graze land for animals so we can feed them so we can eat the animals. So do you see this big disparity in resource use? Yeah. We're using all our resources to feed animals. So eating animals is the problem. So even if everyone... No, overproducing the food because we vastly overproduce. So if we wouldn't overproduce, that wouldn't be a problem because we wouldn't need so much resources to actually produce meat. Well, let me just put it... So that's the problem. So let's just say we've got 7 billion people here. Yeah. What would you consider overproducing and killing animals? So I would say like that, yeah? So how many animals can you eat? So no, I would say that how many times a week you need meat? No, zero. Okay, fine. I would say if I will eat once or twice a week, that's fine. But people tend to eat meat at least seven times a week. So if 7 billion people ate meat one to twice a week, like you're suggesting, how many animals go to the slaughterhouse every year? Probably like, you know, a fifth of what is going now. Yeah, probably a lot, a lot less. But the thing is that if you just stop, you know, breathing, like literally stop keeping the animals, you end up with billions of animals. This is a different topic. This is a different topic. Yeah. I can talk about all these topics because you're jumping, you've got now six or seven on the table. Yeah. So you agree, let's just get this, because now let me not forget this what you're saying. You're saying if we stop breeding animals, we're going to have so many animals we won't know what to do with. Yeah. So we have to keep eating them to keep them. We're supposed to just lower it, lower it, year by year. We should lower it. There's a way to do this by the way. Yes, you produce less meat. To the point, we only produce a little bit of meat. So just for our survival, not to waste a lot of. You can't use survival because we don't need meat to survive. Yeah. You can't use that. Can you eat, do you need meat to survive? Just a question. No. So you can't use survival? Yeah. But there's another thing. Okay. So for now, before we continue, before we continue, can you take survival off of the table? Do you need a smartphone to survive? No. Exactly. So I'm not using survival as a justification. So generally, we could get rid of a lot of stuff to. No, of course. I'm not saying survival is my threshold. You're saying that. I never said survival. I think well-being and having practical things is good. But not when it creates a mass murder of conscious beings. I don't think it's justified. Survival might be your only way out, but I'm saying you can't use that because you're not eating meat to survive. Yes and no. The question is, can we get everyone and feed them on the plant-based meat, the plant-based stuff? Food. You were talking about practical sense. The question was, why aren't you vegan? Right. Why aren't you? Because obviously we haven't even got human beings to stop murdering each other yet. Yeah, true. That still happens. Of course. So it's hard in a practical sense for us to stop getting human beings to murder each other. Human slavery still exists. Of course. It's hard in a practical sense to get everyone to stop enslaving humans. But you don't do it. Of course I don't. So my question is to you, why aren't you vegan? I told you because it's impractical. Because to actually be a vegan, it takes much more work to do it. Okay. Because I want to talk about this. I want to help you with that. But there's a principle. The principle reason is what I'm concerned with more because that would be your motivation to make that easier. Because if the motivation is strong enough, this convenience thing doesn't become so hard. Yeah. With my wife, we stop eating literally. We probably get down to about 5% of the meat we were actually eating for a year. That's good. That's fine. But then we come back to eat a little bit more meat simply because it just was so much hassle to make sure that we got everything. There's a lot of things you have to worry about. And then obviously the pandemic happened and there was literally a problem to buy anything. I get what you're saying. Because suddenly nothing was available. I understand what you're saying. You have a convenient life happens and it's hard to think. You haven't probably considered this, the moral implications of what you're doing. But through the eyes of the victims, because we always look at it through our eyes, don't we, human beings? Yes, of course. We only care about how it feels for us. But for the animals, the chickens who are sentient conscious birds, the cows who are conscious animals, like dogs, you know. You would avoid dog. Would you avoid dog? Eating a dog? You're eating the dog. Yeah. You don't need it for survival. You just want it for a burger. It's hard to avoid. Would you buy it or would you look for a plant-based? Of course. There's another thing. We are born to certain ways. Yes? Yeah. Now try to explain to the Chinese people that the eating dog is wrong when they always did it since they were born. Not all Chinese people eat dogs. There's a small portion of people over in China that do it. If you end up growing up there, it's the same like with religion. I get you. If I was born in Poland, so I was automatically Catholic. I get you. If I will be born in, let's say, Arabic country, I will be Muslim. Of course. There's no... Cultural conditioning. So this is just cultural conditioning. But I think, in my eyes, I think it's, you know, we should try to reduce. Reduce? Okay. But don't try to just get everyone on a vegan because that's not going to happen. That's just not possible. No, no, no. I don't care if it's not going to happen. No. Because we haven't stopped murdering each other. I don't murder because it's not going to happen. No, no. You know what I'm saying? That's, you know, it's a huge difference between you murdering someone or you going to the shop and buying a meat. For the general population, it's a totally different thing. I get you, but I wasn't... So if you're going to manage in 10 years or 20 years, change 5% of the people on the worth, that's going to be a lot. So I wasn't equating murdering people with eating meat. I was saying that because people aren't going to stop murdering people, that doesn't mean that I should. And I'm saying, and what I was saying, I was comparing that. You were saying, not everyone's going to go vegan, so that means I shouldn't. No, no, no. Yeah, that's what I was... That's what it is. That means, you know, we should really try to lower the consumption of meat, but being vegan, honestly, what I think, a huge number of people will never even consider. Yeah, but that argument doesn't work. What they mean, it's for the majority of the people never going to happen. But it doesn't mean we shouldn't try... It doesn't mean you shouldn't act morally, because you're against animal cruelty. A lot of people... Some people aren't against animal cruelty. I am acting morally. No, no, but if you're against... So if you're against cruelty to animals, right? Yeah. You're against animal cruelty. We established this, most people are rational people, are you? And when you go to the store and you buy meat, do you think those animals have been treated in a cruel way? Probably part of it now. No, they haven't. Probably not. Now the thing is that, are you assuming that everyone who is actually buying a meat, is literally lining up with animal cruelty? Yes. Okay. Yes, they are. And I'm an investigator. We expose these places all the time. Do you live in the UK? Yeah. You eat in the UK? So we specifically focus on UK farming practices in slaughterhouses. So if you don't know, that's because they haven't let the public know about what goes on in factory farms in slaughterhouses. Let me ask you this. What do you think happens to animals so you can eat them? What do you think happens? Trust me, I have an idea. You have an idea? So you would agree that when you purchase those products with your money, here you go, you're paying these people to be crawled in the animal so you can eat them? Yeah, you see, and then we have a problem because you can't assume that every single person, this is what they do it. They don't knowingly, they don't knowingly with intention, but they are by supply and demand. Yeah, kind of. So what will be the best option? 100% they are. So what will be the best option? Be vegan. Because that's the best way you can reduce your harm to unjustifiable harm. Like it's not justified for me to put a bunch of animals in a slaughterhouse for a sandwich. Now let me give you the example. My grandfather had animals and he will kill them to eat. Now, was that a cruelty? Yes, for the animals, yes. So you think that him really taking care of the animals for all their life and then killing them for sure? I think it's cruel. I think it's cruel. So let me just say, if I had a bunch of human beings in my backyard and I treated them amazingly and they had incredible amounts of well-being and I went through and shot them all in the face and cut them up and ate them, then would that be cruel? What's about the plans then? Would that be cruel? Because I answered you, that would be cruel? Yeah. So why isn't it cruel for animals? I can tell you why it's not cruel for plants very easily. But why isn't it cruel for animals? No, I'm not saying it's not cruel. It's cruel. So it's cruel. You see what I'm saying? So now you're saying that generally all human beings, which whenever they eat meat, that's the cruel people. So you don't come across as a cruel person to me. Like I'm saying that you're doing something cruel. No. If I'm doing something cruel, that means I am. But you might not be in three times a day. So now, so now you're on a accusing everyone to be cruel. Like most of the people being cruel. Yeah, but not intentionally. But generally, you have to go back to the basics that we are part of animal kingdom. And of the day, the people a thousand years ago were still eating meat, which means What else were they doing? Yeah. Horrible stuff. Yes, of course. But now, that means that, you know, you're going to ban... My brother. Let me ask you this. Let me ask you this. I want to ask you, a thousand years ago, they were enslaving people? No, we're talking 60,000 years ago. No, no, no. 200 years ago, slavery still happens. But I'm just saying, in the past, a thousand years ago, human slavery happened. Imagine if I had human slaves. But you're talking about two different subjects. No, no, no. I'm comparing. It's always happened. That's all I'm comparing. No, you're talking about greediness and about survival. That's two different subjects. And I'm talking about it's always happened. No, no, no. But you getting to the greediness. So people were enslaved because other people were greedy. They wanted money. That's nothing to do with Indians in America killing buffalo to survive. That's two different subjects. That's survival. Two different subjects. So you cannot get them together and say, oh, this is the same because it's always happened. That doesn't work. No, no, no. I wasn't comparing survival because we already took survival on the table. We know you're not trying to survive. But you did line up those together. No, no, no. You must have been you must be mistaking what I meant. You said a thousand years ago we ate meat. I don't care because a thousand years ago we did horrible things. Then again, you're trying to put the slaver together with survival. Yes, you did. Because a thousand years ago we were doing something horrible and I think it's horrible to eat animals and I was comparing other things they did a long time ago that are also horrible and we can't justify it by saying it's always happened. That's all I'm saying. But you can't get that line up with the same thing. It doesn't mean those two things are the same. I'm saying a thousand years ago was not a reason to continue doing it. No, no. You have to understand that just because people were greedy was a map with people eating to survive. I wasn't talking about greed. Because people no, the slaver was a greedy. That was people being greedy. And slaving people to earn the money. That was simple. Okay, what about animals now? Non-human animals now what are we doing to them? Is that greed? What do you mean? Is it greed what we are doing to non-human animals now? Of course. Okay. And is it also cruel? So it's not survival. So it's not survival. It's not because we've always done it. This is greediness. And is it cruel? Why? Is it cruel greed? Of course it is. So why do you pay for it? Why aren't you vegan? Because I'm trying to survive. Okay. I'm not. We've already said it's not survival. That's the thing. I'm not buying meat a lot. Eating only meat because I think it's fine. No, I'm eating also meat together with all the plants and whatever I can. And I can say I'm eating also dogs with all the plants and also humans with all the plants. You see the produce overproducing of the meat. That's the greediness. So start. I don't think overproducing. So even your backyard scenario you gave me. Even the no, I don't think the problem necessarily is overproducing. It is huge because we wasting so much meat by overproducing and throwing away. It's crazy. So that's the first thing. So before try to convince everyone to be a vegan. Try to convince big companies not to overproduce food. So we're not going to waste so much. So there is the first step. And then when they're going to stop overproducing there will be less available people will start eat less meat. No, no, that's not how it works. So let's start. It's the other way around actually. So businesses businesses only work because you give them money. Yeah. Yeah. So they're not going to stop overproducing if you don't stop giving them money. Why would they stop? Try to try to get people sign up petition try to change the law. It's possible. No, it's not. While it's legal. It's possible. While it's legal. So I will say that. What happens if you don't want to change the law? I will say that. I will say that. I will. That my opinion. It's more possible to actually change the law. Than it is to change everyone. Than actually change the people to become vegan. So that's my opinion. Okay. Let me unpack it. I need to go because my I'll unpack that without you here. Bless you. Thank you for sitting down. Okay. No worries. Thank you. Bye-bye. So basically because this gentleman is left, you are never going to change laws without having the public on board with it. Which is why we try to change the minds of the public. The reason they change laws for women, the reason they change civil rights laws, the reason they change laws is because there's a public uproar and uprising. The reason that slavery is abolished, the reason that human rights are even human rights is because there's an uprising and then there's a bunch of people and then we have a cultural shift without changing the hearts and minds of the people, you're never going to get them to support new laws. You're saying like, hey, I've got this petition. Eating meat and killing animals illegal. And everyone's like, not alike, must take a lot of burgers. Animals were put here for us for thousands of years. We're doing it to survive. Animals don't feel pain. What about plants? No one's going to sign it. So how are you going to do that? Everyone's not going to change. So that means we shouldn't change. Survival was off the table a million times. I think everyone knew that. Because we've always done something, it's not a justification to keep doing something. I'm not trying to equate two things. I'm just saying because we've always done something, it's not a very good reason to keep doing something. It's actually incredibly silly reason. Because we didn't agree on the principles first. If we don't agree on the principles, we can drive down the highway, and every single fast food option has got a vegan option there. You can go into every single supermarket and there's vegan stuff for days. Every single pub and restaurant here has a vegan option. You have no excuses in the UK. It's cheaper on average to buy plant foods from Audi than it is to buy fillet steak and meat and all these things on top of it. So you can design a very cheap diet and it's very easy. There are some practical things that you can learn along the way, but dietary wise you can switch tomorrow. No problems.