 So, I would like to have our sponsors up on stage. Four of them, welcome up. And we need a microphone. So I will give you about 10 seconds each to explain why did you sponsor and what is so good about you and your company. No pressure. Okay, we start with Skania, who can claim? Thank you. Yes, Skania, we are making tracks and coaches and industrial engines. And we have been profitable since 1934. And we are very famous for lean manufacturing, but in fact, we also have a modular architecture. And I hope for the future, we're gonna be knowledgeable also for management innovation. Thanks for that. Yes. Next is, and frankly, and what's your name? Yeah, my name is Veronica. I'm actually three weeks into my position at, and frankly. So this is new for me. But our tool you can use to trigger and measure employee engagement. And you got this, great. So please try us out or come and see us at the table. Perfect. Thank you. Thank you. Next one is Azana. And your name, please? Yes, hi everyone. My name is MP. Before I get into the spiel, again, just should we all clap and say thank you to Agile Peeper for putting this together? This has been an amazing, amazing event. Thank you guys so much. So Azana is a work and project management software that enables your teams to work together effortlessly in Agile. You'll hear from some of our customers today. We have one here on stage. And Spotify is one of our biggest customers and I believe you all heard about how they run. So please come visit us in the corner. Great. Thank you. A little bit more because you said so nice things about the conference. Yeah. And then we actually have our own Mikael Jöte here. Yes, hi. I'm Mikael Jöte from CRISP. So that's my daytime work. At night, I organize conferences like Agile People. So, and at the daytime work then at CRISP, we are the Agile Boutique Consultancy in Stockholm. And we've been working with Agile for so long. So we know that it comes to people, leadership in organizations to succeed. That's why we support these kind of things with both time and money and events. Thank you. Awesome. Thanks for sponsoring. OK, now we will move over to our panel discussion for this year. We have six panelists and I want you all up on stage now. So my thought here was that since this is a self-organized conference, I would like my panelists to introduce each other, actually. And we will start with Doug and Donna over here who knew each other from a long time ago. I think you have cooperated in the past. And you are going to start to introduce each other. So let's hear. Donna, would you like to start introducing Doug? I will. I'm very grateful to be introducing you to Doug Kirkpatrick. I've known Doug since, we can't decide, but I'm thinking 2013. We most recently collaborated on a little book called From Hierarchy to High Performance, which is under Doug's name, just a whole bunch of us from great work cultures collaborated on that. Doug has been involved with Morningstar, a tomato processing company since 1990 when it switched from trucking to manufacturing. And in that process, because there are no titles in a self-organized company, Doug's role was around financial controller. And I did, and I've done three interviews with Doug on my various podcasts. But one of them talks about how you use game scenarios to prepare your budget and then walk to the bank and get their agreement. So very innovative approaches. And it is with my great pleasure. Oh, and I have to say, Doug's latest book, which we also did an interview on, is the No Limits Enterprise. And there's a lot of good stuff in here. The back end has got a template for how you can, you know, commitments you make to each other, which is, we always talk about accountability. But in genuine nature, it's the commitment that we make. So, yeah. Thank you, Donna. Donna, I've known as a passionate and powerful and prolific podcaster, author, collaborator, and thought leader. And she shows up in multiple communities and we just seem to end up being together all over the world all the time. And it's been great. Really got to know her when she was getting ready to publish a book called Decision Making for Dummies, I think, in 2013 or so. But her podcasts are phenomenal. And I just recommend that you follow her if you get a chance. Thank you. Now over to James and Alice, who are going to introduce each other. OK, so I met Alisa this morning. And I thought, well, this is interesting to introduce somebody whom I've not met before. So we took about six minutes, I think, in the corridor to have a conversation. And the thing that struck me from that conversation about you to give a different dimension to who you are and what you're doing now was, you shared a story that I think is common for many. And that led to an opportunity for you that doesn't necessarily arise for everyone even though it's possible. And what I'm saying was that you shared about how, through your own experiences of finding yourself constrained in various environments that didn't allow you to grow into your full potential and express who you were, through an opportunity where that became possible, you realize now that you were motivated to also provide environments where others could do the same. And like any good idea, you bumped into the fact that that's not as easy as it might first seem. And it seems to me that what we teach or seek to enable is the thing we also most need to learn. So I was reminded of Kyren, the wounded healer. And it's like through our own journey as life carves us open somehow, it inspires us to create opportunities for others to become more of themselves as well. And that's what touched me most, because I think that's what drives you behind everything you do. And it was a pleasure to meet you for those six minutes. Thank you. Beautiful. And I hope we will stay meeting again. Thank you, that's a really nice introduction for six minutes only that you know me. After, I already searched something of you on the internet. And if you look for James on the internet, then you see that he's a real traveler. He comes everywhere around the globe. And he does that because his heart is with people and he wants to help people in their change. You can better explain what so chokersy is than I can. So I leave that to you. But if you look at him at the picture, for example, then you see a very open, humble and kind man. And if you talk to James, you experience the same. I experience the same. And I only saw you for six minutes. Yeah, yeah, yeah, no, I'm not saw you for six minutes, but I spoke to you for six minutes. And you can laugh at that, but it's not a joke. It's really, I'm serious about this. And I think I can learn a lot from you and I hope to learn a lot from you. And I'm going to your speech afterwards. So James, thank you already for this. Thank you, Lisa. And over to Ari and Marina. So Marina and I met at 12.40 to compensate. We talked for eight minutes. And one of the things that she said, what I didn't expect was I love fishing. I said, okay, cool. And then she said, and that's what we share. I love being out there. You're being busy, traveling, right? Plains, transfers, airports, and then being out there. So this weekend, right? You were here, enjoying the lake, the silence, and especially enjoying being alone, right? For what I liked the first thing that she said, you know, I got into this because Mike Beedle was my supervisor. And for those of you who don't know, Mike is also one of the authors of the Agio Manifesto. And sadly, he lost his life a year and a half ago. So I think you're in a privileged situation, right? Very cool from that perspective. We were talking about traveling, right? And the pressure is on your life and, you know, getting a little bit of exercise and, you know, the wrong diets all the time. And then she said, magical words, I try to do my run in the morning. Try, you're trying to do it. Marina. Thank you very much. Andri, he was one of the persons who wrote Agio Manifesto. Thank you so much for that. He has more than 25 years experience in Agile and he helped with the Agile around the world, right? And three interesting facts about Andri. The first, his first job was delivery babies, right? Am I right? And during he wrote Agile Manifesto during two days when he came back, he found his house was on the fire and his wife broke him with him, broken with him. And yeah, and he's always ready for changes, right? Welcome. Welcome. Thank you. Great introductions. We are moving on to the first little question. I gave you a small challenge and that was to look at the Agile People Manifesto that we talked about earlier and to actually mention your favorite principle and why this is your favorite principle or you can comment on any of them, actually. But I know that James mentioned a specific one and maybe you want to start, James, to elaborate on that principle that you mentioned to me. Do you remember which one it was? Well, I'm guessing meaning and purpose. Yes, it was meaning and purpose. Yeah, okay. Well, the reason it jumped out for me is I've been inquiring into what meaning means for a while and why it might be relevant. And I know for me that many years ago I realized that pursuing what was meaningful for me is what gave me greatest energy and also gave me the discipline and the courage to see through the challenging moments and to persevere and when the going got tough to keep going. And so more recently I had it proposed that, well, maybe there's a direct correlation between meaningfulness and the willingness to take responsibility. And I think today what we need more than anything is for all of us to take responsibility, for the, not just as individuals, but also on the more collective level for the consequences of our individual and shared actions. And I can't get past the fact that these two are so intimately related. And then I speak to people who kind of give the impression at least that what they're doing in their lives right now is less than meaningful for them. And then somehow that costs them and it takes energy. And even when their intention is to act with integrity, it becomes harder to follow through. And when the challenges come it becomes more difficult to find that extra energy to persevere. So I'm wondering what would the world look like if we invested into, not just in our own generation, but in future generations, this prioritizing the invitation for human beings and our children to consider what's meaningful for you, what makes your heart sing, what are you passionate about, what's your unique contribution and take a growth, approach to growth kind of mindset to growing our children so that they can arrive into adulthood fully engaged and energized to persevere. And I think as a current generation, the challenge is are you invested in what is meaningful? Really. And if not, what are you gonna do about it? And if I'm not on a given day, what am I gonna do about it? Because it's not just about self-indulgence, it's about responsibility for what happens next, both for us and those that follow. Very well spoken. Thank you so much. Who would like to continue on another note? Alice, which one is your favorite and why? Yeah, my favorite is also purpose, but next to that, because you already talked about it. But next to that, it's the curiosity. Agile people are curious and collaborate to create awesome value and innovative solutions that meet human needs. And if you remember my slide about the children who were jumping in the water, everyone I think is born Agile. And children have questions. They are curious. If you have little children, I have little children, and they always ask questions, a lot of questions. But what is it that we do as a parent? I sometimes find it, it's not at the moment, the right moment to ask the question, but that's in my head. So I sometimes say, sorry, not now. Thank you. Later. And if children are going to school, then the teacher does that. We put children in a system. And after that, we start to work, study, work, and then we have another kind of hierarchy. And along the way, we stop asking questions and we stop being curious. And now we have to change that again. And that's very difficult, but it is necessary. Ask questions, don't feel stupid. And don't think that you are stupid if you ask questions. I sometimes think that. I also have sometimes a fixed mindset. But I think curiosity is necessary to grow to the future for all of us. So that's mine. Thank you, Alice. Beautiful. Anybody wants to go? Donna wants to have a say. Thank you. It was really difficult to pick one, land on one, and you can imagine that when you look at the great work you did in that producing this is phenomenal. The one I'm going to speak to though is the one that relates more strongly to me in terms of what's going on in the world today. And that is agile people connect deeply with individuals, business, and society to create a culture where human ability is nurtured, valued, and unleashed. And I chose that one because when you look at the depression and the anxiety statistics worldwide, which are absolutely absurd, the cost of the global economy, something like one trillion, but never mind the stats, look at the cost to human, to families, to human lives. And when you look at the root cause or the source, if you will, of what lies under depression and anxiety, it's going to boil down to two things biologically. One of them is people's expression is being repressed. That's the biological definition of it. And out of that comes depression because they're not able to contribute. They can't see their place. There's not that opportunity to contribute at a deep and profound level. And the other thing that comes out of depression is disconnection. And so far there's been at least seven different ways in which we can become disconnected, disconnected from the self, disconnected from our values, meaningful values, disconnected from other people. And so that's an opportunity, it seems to me, to restore some empathy to the conversations, the relationships and really use the most difficult of times, which research tells us is the place where we actually do the skill development. It's not when things are just running along beautifully, it's when the going is extremely tough. And that's the place where we can really ramp up how we connect with people across, whether the doorway is agile or some other path, but at least it's there for us to open it up and have a just deeply listen to someone else, particularly someone else whose views are just not similar to our own or your own or my own. And really, you know, teenagers are great places to start because they are the ones that are most isolated in society today. So that's to me why I picked that one. Thank you. Yeah, thank you. Maybe you pass it on to Dogg and let's hear Dogg's view. So I'd like to harness the power of boundaries spanning and combine pursuing meaning with connecting deeply. I think that connecting deeply has a lot to do with helping others find their purpose and meaning. Stockholm is the home of the Kestenbaum Institute and Peter Kestenbaum is probably our greatest living philosopher of work. And he would say it's high time we brought philosophy back into the workplace and really thought deeply about these concepts that we're talking about today. Business and society are concepts. Connection is about human beings. And so it's about the need to connect deeply with each other as human beings and help each other find purpose and meaning. And most of us experience work as an external constraint on life. Like I got my life but it's impacted and constrained by this work that I have to do to maintain my life. And when you can reorganize yourself around purpose and meaning, you can reorient your approach to an inside out approach where meaning really drives and propels you from the inside out. And work no longer becomes a constraint on life. You integrate work into your life. Work is just part of life. And so we get away from this dichotomy of work-life balance and we start talking about life itself and connecting each other with that purpose. Thank you. We pass on to this side of the stage. We pass on to Marina. I love all of them. And because it's about agile, agile it's about mindset. It's about how people thinking. And I have three favorite. The first one it's about collaboration and creation. And I will tell you from a sales perspective. And collaboration of all organization for creating value for customers. And we work as a one team in whole organization because we have one common goal to create value for customers. And this is for me it's the first one. The second one it's about transparency. It's about trust. It's about self-organizing. I really love all of them. And imagine our self-organizing sales team. And when management trusts them and I really love it. And the second one and the last one it's about cross-functional collaboration. I think I believe that the most important when we have collaboration between different departments, when we understand each other, when we support each other. And everything it's about people. That's why I really love it. Thank you so much. Thank you Marina. Sorry, you're the last but not the least. Thank you. So I was thinking about transparency too, right? So let's just take it also and add a little bit on yours. For me, I always say when I do masterclass or anything transparency is the carrier of agile. If the transparency stops, agile is impossible. It's very simple. And it's easily said to be transparent. And like traveling around the world as we all do, right? You see so often that it's cultural bound. It's a regional culture. It's a company culture where transparency is very difficult. Even having a Kanban board on the wall which demonstrates your progress already people start feeling insecure. And I think we should recognize that transparency is a make or break in working agile. And at the same time, there are so many impediments in organizations if you wanna bring them into an agile modus. And building the safety, which is also connecting by the way to the diversity, but building the safety where people feel free to transparent is essential. And that's where we all should focus on. So in terms of being open and sharing a role modeling, being transparent from the top, daring to be transparent at the bottom of the organization and helping people to take that one step to make that happen. Thank you, Ari, very well said. I would like to move on to another question. And then this one is about your unique view about what is your recipe or your cure to the situation that organizations are facing today and where they find themselves in terms of the changes, the changes, the environment, everything that is happening around the world today. What is your unique cure? Who wants to start? Do you have a cure? Yeah? Yeah, the recipe. Pays 56 of the book, right? There you find it. What I found, sometimes I ask when people apply for a job at humanity to be an agile coach, I always ask, why do you want to do this job? Because in three months, your client will tell you that you're a liar and you're a fraud and it's not true. So why do you want to do this? If you look at how times have changed 25 years ago, it was really like this. And now I think what we have as, it's not a recipe, but it's something that helps us. Technology goes in such a pace and technology has, you know, find its way, I think into every professional domain that we know, from farmers to, you know, hospitals, wherever you go, their technology is there. And if technology is in your professional domain, you know that being able to, as a corporate, as an organization, being able to respond to that fast pace of innovation is essential. Otherwise, you know, you don't survive. So I think we have now, it's not a recipe, but we have a little bit, you know, the wind in our sails, so to speak. And if you go into an Agile transformation, and I think in this audience, it's easily received, but start focusing on the mindset. And when that's, then go into technology in your Agile transformation and then can make you excel. But I see so many people doing a little bit at the bottom of Agile and then going into technology and expect miracles. And the mindset is everything. But what happened really? You say we have wind in the sails right now. We didn't have wind in the sails before, right? What has changed that made this happen suddenly, this paradigm shift? The pace of change has gone up so fast. So the last, if you see that, you know, what technology does, it disrupts entire business models in months, it makes products and solutions obsolete in weeks, so you have to be able to respond. I think that's, and that's for us being, you know, adapted to, you know, addicted to Agile and wanted to bring it into organizations, that's the wind in our sails. Did you have another view? Somebody else has another view of why is this now suddenly happening? Because I think we all agree that something has changed. I've been saying this for 10 years, but now it's really true, isn't it? That's what I feel. So do you have a view on that, James? No. What is different? No. Because, I mean, I can say many different things. I can say it's because of this, it's because of that, but part of the situation is complexity itself. It's like everything's interacting with everything. And so the mystery of why we appear to be moving towards a more open public inquiry about these things is a bit beyond me. I think the technology is one side of it, but I have no idea. I mean, because I just, I can conceive so many answers to the question. And I wanted to tie that back to your first question around the unique view on what's secure, right? Because I think that's the other thing. It's like this tendency to look outside ourselves for the answer and the magic formula, based on previous thinking, maybe more complicated thinking rather than complex thinking. And actually, I think the answer is recognizing there isn't an answer in a way. And at the same time, there's such extraordinary wisdom available for every one of us and through those that came before us as well. And so, a naive approach we were talking about in the lunch was, oh, we're removal managers and we'll be self-organizing and no one will tell anyone what to do and it's all gonna be fine and that's like complete bullshit. It's like, doesn't work at all. All that does is reinforce the argument for a management hierarchy, or assuming the company survives at all. And so, what I wanna say is that one answer is, how do you take the wisdom of everybody who's come before and distribute that through learning to more people and distribute the management function to more people throughout the system and support people in learning how to help themselves whatever that might look like in a given context. Not only alone, but through harnessing the collective intelligence distributed through their peers. That was really interesting. We had a course in Zurich last week and I asked, so what is management? Is it a role? Is it a position? Is it a process? What is management? And then one of the groups came up with something new that I had never heard before. They said, management is a tool to be used by whomever in the organization when it's needed in the way that is needed right there, right then. I thought, brilliant, management is a tool. What do you think? Well, I'm not sure. I see management as a necessity. Yeah, but I'm curious what Doug has to say. Doug, what's management? Is that a necessity, Doug? Do you agree? Yeah, I think it's the social technology for getting work done. It's how work has always gotten done. It's how they built the pyramids. It's how they built the Great Wall of China. It's how we run companies. It's planning, organizing, controlling, selecting, coordinating. Planning strategy, organizing's leadership, controlling's budgeting of time and resources, selecting's hiring and firing, coordinating's teamwork. It's simple stuff. It's not rocket science. We all do it all the time in our own personal lives. So the question is, how do we do it in businesses in a way that affirms humanity? Yes. How do we do it in a different way than we have traditionally done, leadership or management? And everybody's using this tool or this position or role or process every day in their ordinary lives. Okay, so anybody else wants to pick up on that thread? Well, I don't know that I can pick up any better on the management thread that you've given, but I do know that in order for us collectively to proceed, I think part going back to the earlier question, what's going on, I think that there is a fatigue around the routine of life that is now being pressured to shift stance, to shift perspective, so people can see themselves in a different way. I mean, when I have a lot of young people come up, they're really struggling with the question, do this linear trajectory of going to university, get a job, do all the same routine thing, or do I be true to myself? And the fact that there's a divergence in that choice is I think is a pretty significant one. So I think more than ever now, people are starting to come to the place where they're being true to themselves. In order to be true to themselves, it means you have to look at yourself differently, you have to look at your place in the world differently. You have to see yourself differently, not just as a nurse or a coach or whatever it is, but as a human being and all of what goes with that. So we need to change the way we look at ourselves. Would you like to comment on that as well? Yeah, I was, when you were speaking about that, I needed to think about something that happened to myself because lately I had a discussion with someone and we were talking about that if generations grow older, maybe because they have a different view of the world. Look at the challenges we have in the world, the climate, et cetera, how can we save our planet? It becomes more and more and more a discussion. And it's not longer on the background, but it's on the foreground. And I think that also makes that we are starting to change and shift our way of thinking faster. And I had a discussion with someone, so maybe if people grow older and our younger generations grow older, then we don't have the problem anymore. I don't know if that is true because they face new things, but what really helped myself is the time that I could create my own purpose because it helped me to go away from thinking in small boxes of function profiles, small tasks, this is what I'm doing, this is what I do in my department, this is what I do in my function. No, it's not what I am. And my purpose tells what I am. And I did realize that the trainer also said when I created the purpose, he said be careful what you wish for because everything that you write down, because there's a whole story behind my purpose, everything you write down can become true. And when you create your own purpose, then you are going to live that purpose. And that's not about work or about family or, but it's the whole. And that's also how I like to view the world and also our organizations as a whole. We are all part of the system. And we need to make it better. Yeah. We need to improve the system. Great. And I agree with Ari about agile mindset that we need to change our mindset. An interesting question, why we need it? And my answer that our customers, they changed the way how they buy. Usually now they know everything about our product, everything about our service. And we need to give them something more. We need to create some value for them. We need to understand what they really need and we need to do it faster than our competitive. And because in this way we will survive our business. That's why we change structure, mindset, culture and everything. That's why this is my opinion from sales perspective. So learning becomes the only competitive advantage for the future. That's what you're saying. Learning about your customers, about your employees, moving faster in that learning. Yeah. Thank you. Would you like to say something, Ari? No, not particularly. Okay. Yeah? Okay. I will keep it. Okay. Good. Oh, sorry. Yeah. Learning about our customers, our employees, but also learning about ourselves. Yes. And that's maybe the most difficult thing to learn about yourself. Yeah, because I heard the phrase, we have to change the way we look at ourselves. I think we have to start looking at ourselves. Maybe we don't do that. Right. And this is not a... Look in the mirror. Yeah, this is not applicable for everyone, right? But in any kind of situation, it's always about the other one. And it's, look in the mirror, it's a horrible phrase, but you know, just, I mean, you cannot change someone else, period. No. Right? The only one you can change it is you. So if you want this situation to improve, start with yourself. And I think too often, people are so afraid of leaving the comfort zone, that the only thing they can do is blaming someone else. I think we have two more minutes left. Oh, you're kidding. Thank you. 45 minutes? This is ridiculous. It's close. It's close. You just started, right? So I have actually a question that I think is quite interesting. If you could do just one thing for a company, what would that be? I know what I would do. I would try to increase psychological safety in that company, because then it comes a lot of other things because of that. Is there the one thing that you would, you can only do one thing. What would you do? What would you pick? Yeah, I would do safety too. Safety is number one. Number one. Yeah? What do you think? Yeah, that's a bit boring, but create trust. Yeah. Safety. I think it would be to facilitate this conversation around meaning, to dare to do that, and follow through on the consequences. Play. Play is one of the ways in which the highest form of human intelligence emerges. I don't think we do enough playing. Not easy though. I would encourage leaders to get a worldview. So that's what Peter Kasselmann would say, for heaven's sakes, get a worldview. So if you believe that people are ponds on a chessboard, and you wanna be like Chainsaw Al Dunlap, knock yourself out. But if you believe in free will, like Immanuel Kant and lots of philosophers, that will lead you in an entirely different direction for the rest of your life. And it will change everything about how you approach work in society. One last thing, I would like to... Marina, would you also like to elaborate on that? I would love to give freedom for employees for making decisions, because I believe that our employees know better how to achieve goals, just give them freedom. Yeah. Thank you. Last thing. Your biggest fear for the future. What is your biggest fear for the future? Let's start with you, Doug. People having nervous breakdowns from what Donna talked about, this massive anxiety. But we can overcome that by figuring out how to manage complexity with great simplicity and simple principles. Thank you, Donna. My greatest fear is that we do not take the opportunity in any point of crisis in our lives or in the workplace to dive deeper into the creative talent and work with it collectively. That's our opportunity, and my fear is that we do not take it. Great, thanks. James. I don't know that it's a fear, because I kind of feel some sense of acceptance for what is, but my concern is that we will fail to realize what's possible and create the very worst of consequences for ourselves and maybe even extinct to ourselves. Oh, wow. When it doesn't have to be that way at all in the choices entirely ours. Alice, your biggest fear. Yeah, if it's a fear, I'm not sure. But sometimes, last year I visited a lot of conferences, roundtables, and so ever, and we talked a lot about creating agility and how we can change our mindset. And sometimes I think, please, don't let go our fun. We also, everything we do, life is short. And sometimes if we listen to all the things that's happening in the world, and yes, we need to do all something about that, but it can also be with fun. Thank you. What about you, Wari? There are very little things that keep me awake at night. But the one thing is not about organizations or work of people, it's a simple one, but it's as horrible as simple, plastic. I mean, the way we live and the way we, everywhere you go, single-use plastic is dominating. It's much more around, out there in the environment than we think already. And we have, as a human being, an inability to change, and we keep on producing and using and using and using, and it scares me to shit if I see what's happening. Yeah, so Greta is right. Yeah. Robert's instant people, how do you spell it? Like machine instant people in the company, so how to say it in English. Machines, I don't know, anyway, instant people. Yeah, I see. Thank you very much. I realize what I'm fearful of. Yeah. Sorry, it's that we end up living in some globally totalitarian regime. Like with the supremacy of power shifting to the few through the absence of the many taking responsibility for themselves and finding ways to collaborate together to avoid that from happening. And it's the macro story of the micro one we're dealing with in organizations today. Extremely wise words. Thank you, James. Any questions for the panel now before we finalize? Anybody has a question? Oh, over here, yeah, I see you. Who do you want to ask a question? Well, it's kind of for everybody. First comment, you guys are amazing. The perspectives you're bringing forth is very refreshing, it's clarity for all of us. My question to you, which is a kind of a big question is, it's all about people in the end, right, in organizations. So the perspectives, the place that you're coming from, where did you get to that point? How did you get to that point? I didn't realize I had to run back with the mic. Who wants to answer? You want to answer? I want to share a story that I share sometimes on stage. When I made my change 25 years ago, answering really your question, right? When do you take that moment that you say, okay, this is stop? I was doing a Dutch IRS, the tax office. I was doing a project, very traditional waterfall done as a technical designer. And with 30 people working for seven months, it was, we call that the project was killed, right? So you spend millions and then the project is stopped and never restarted again. So what the hell did we spend this public money on, right? And that was my moment where I was really kicked out of the office of the client at 10, 15 in the morning. So I was getting into my car and thought, what am I going to do now? And I went to the office and I spoke to five of the six managers that we had at the time. I said, whatever you find for me for the next contract, I'm never going to do this again. And it's a choice, right? You're the architect of your own life and this is what you have to take. That's taking the responsibility. And I didn't want to waste public money. If you spend public money, it should be on healthcare, on education and not being wasted by irresponsible people like this. That's making a change. I don't know if you'll answer your question, but okay, right, so that's my story. I don't know. Anybody else? Great, Yamia. I think we need to save the rest of the answers until the coffee corner. I'm really sorry. Let's do that. You will have the opportunity to speak with all these beautiful people in the coffee corner later this afternoon. Let's give them a round of applause. Thank you. Thank you very much.