 Aloha and welcome. Welcome to Global Connections. I'm your host, Carlos Juarez, and I'm joined today by a special friend, a colleague of mine here at the University of the America storyline in Mexico, Dr. Mohamed Aline Eliatioui. Mohamed, welcome and welcome back to Global Connections. Thank you again for joining me. Today we have a topic we're going to explore that really doesn't need a lot of attention in the international community, the media, partly we have a lot of other things happening in the world, but it's a crisis that's been unfolding for quite some time. In the number of decades now it is in northwest Africa, basically the western Sahara region, and I want to maybe provide initially some other context, but maybe as we continue understanding this issue, you know, how does it reflect, I guess, either the challenges of these kind of separatist movements, you know, multi-ethnic, multi-racial societies, we're talking about Morocco and more specifically the western Sahara, and there's a region that has been under some dispute for a while, and there's been a movement now, right, almost approaching 40 years, known as the Polisario, a front that is trying to seek, I guess, a separate state or some independent, so before I add any more to that, maybe have you give us a quick snapshot, what is this issue of, well, we're calling it, you know, in some ways it deals with terrorism and organized crime, because like many of these national-rating movements, they kind of go through changes and they become different actors. Let's tell us a little bit about the context of what we're talking about here. What's this Sahara? We have, of course, Morocco that borders Mauritania to the south, it has Algeria to the east, and south of the European continent, but what is going on here, and tell us a little bit from our listeners about it. So, well, thank you for the presentation, thank you very much. So, what's really interesting in this case, we have a conflict, we've been doing it since 44 years, and in a region who's not talking about it, because we can see that this conflict, in reality, is a conflict of decolonization of Africa, in the conflict of the Cold War, who is continuing 27 years, 18 years after the end of the Cold War. Yes, in some ways it's a legacy of that, kind of having them resolve, there's a brief, obviously, in post-decolonization of the process that unfolded after the 60 years to continue, but also the Cold War end, and that remains kind of an issue. The biggest of the Cold War and the biggest of colonialism. The Sahara was established in the end of the 19th century, in 1925. Before that, it was a Moroccan territory, and all the debates were that in 1973, the peninsula was created as a movement of the liberation of the Sahara, again this time. And in 1976, actually during the Green March, when Morocco recuperated the Sahara to the Spanish, in March of the 18th century, and Morocco recuperated the territory of the Sahara, that is the one that the police are, you want me to say, in Mauritania, we need to wrap the really public, Arabic, Arabian democracy. So the issue here, you've got a country that sort of proclaims its own independence, actually gets recognized by a number of other countries, right? Yes, of all places, and then a number of other different actors throughout the world. But basically, it's a contested one, because not everybody, and yet it does have one of these very great areas. The occupation with the United Arab Emirates, the UN, it's really interesting because you have each year a lot of countries who recognize this representation, and now know, it's interesting because we are living in the legacy of the 17th and the 18th, and we had the evolution of a Marxist group, because it's a Marxist group who was financed by Libya with therapy, that is, of Libya with therapy, and by Algeria. Algeria is one of the main actors of this situation, and Algeria, the government of Algeria, who Median and Bouddhikia, who are the parents of their state, at this moment, are playing for Polisario, but they didn't want to participate in the negotiations. So we didn't have nothing to do with that, we didn't have any relation. But the reality is that they have a relationship, a really close relationship, and what is interesting is that in 1995 to 1991, there was a conflict between the Polisario and the Moroccan army in 1991, and they did well in 1991, they didn't want to have this scenario, and this scenario, today, there's all the problem of the situation is that Algeria is saying, the Western Saharan needs not to refer to its ammunition, which is what Morocco is saying, it's not possible. So Morocco, at the beginning, accepts the idea of the Russian government, also with the nation, but it was not possible to have an agreement about who can participate. So the idea of Morocco, of the King Mohammed VI, some of it, and so on, is to say, we're going to promote an Ottoman in 2008. So they would remain an integral part of Morocco, but have a little bit of a conflict in that unifying. Are we going to see what's going on here inside the Kingdom of Morocco? But I think you've already touched on the reality, here's one of these complex issues that has a lot of different players. Algeria, perhaps the legacy of Libya, which of course, the host of nothing now is in a different form of chaos, but it has an impact, or it obviously had a role in the United States. For over this early year, this was known as the Polisario, this movement begins with Marxist inspired, as you mentioned, the National Liberation Movement. We live in an age now, in the post-Cold War period, where we often see a lot of emphasis on issues of ethnicity, identity, separateness, sovereignty. And here, again, it's an ongoing example. You describe how on one hand, this was known as the Saudi-Arab Democratic Republic. This is a region of essentially Western Sahara, part of what Morocco would say is Morocco, that is declaring itself independent. And it gets recognized by a number of states, I think out of 40 or something, including the Africa-Ughans, which is a regional organization representing African countries, not the United Nations. So it's kind of inconsistent, complicated, many players. And of course, this group, the group known as the Saudi-Arab, what could you tell us quickly about them, because like so many, they're probably spread across borders as well. So if you are talking about the Sahari population, the Sahari population, the Californian, Morocco, and Algeria, a lot of countries. So the creation of the Sahari population, the creation of the Spanish people, because the Spanish government before to leave the country, they didn't accept the idea of a recuperation of a territory by Morocco. So most of the Sahari identity. So some of it is destroyed, that Spain, which used to have claim of this area as an economy, suddenly wants to kind of define those terms. But Morocco, meanwhile, is saying, oh, wait a minute, none of our country now. And so you've got pushing identity issues to create this new separate republic, but it's not recognized either by the UN or by Morocco. What is really interesting is that a lot of countries who recognize this group now are again these groups. In Latin America, we're recognizing Cuba and Venezuela, which you have Cuba and Venezuela, because Maxi's group is very good. So as we were talking about last Sunday, we had an evolution of these groups in 15 years. We had the implementation of terrorist groups of one part of this group. And it's not a nice crime, because we know that, for example, the U.K. union, a lot of NGOs are putting this police area, and we have corruption, we have arms traffic, we have drug traffic. And in 15 years, we have the constitution of terrorist attacks, not only against the Moroccan army, but again, for example, in the 18th, again in the 18th, we used a terrorist attacks against the Spanish workers in the Sahara. A lot of Spanish groups, Spanish companies, had contracts with the Sahara and the U.S. terrorist attacks against them. So it's a Maxi's group. And it's evolved, and it's often happened that if you had this similar at the park in Colombia, who began with ideological focus and was firing a revolution, you know, inspired by the Cuban revolution, supported by external actors. But over time, a lot of these problems of morphing into essentially extortion and organized crime, and essentially then using organized tactics that would be labeled terrorist by other groups. And so it's interesting because we associated acts of terrorism, primarily with the Gulf region, the Middle East, and here's the region, kind of far remote from that, far western North Africa. And yet it remains a bit of a hot spot. And you've got a number of players, outside actors. Tell us a little bit about the context of maybe what you describe a little bit, which is in more recent years, it's been evolving now to become maybe a potential threat. I mean, who is at risk there, or maybe supporting the different interests. So one of the interesting things is that in the Sahara and the Sahel, we have a lot of terrorism. One of the most famous is the act of al-Qaeda and the Islamic movement. This is a reality, the Algerian GSPC of the Civil War of Algeria, which changed its name in 2007. And the same color there. Exactly, and they are part of the al-Qaeda connection. It's really interesting to see that members of the police value, and the only members of the police value now, are close to ISIS, are close to ISIS, and to acne. Because we have not only the same ideology, like this ideology, but we have two connections between organized crime. And it's interesting because Sahara and Sahel is one of the regions of the world where you have a lot of connections between organized crime, like trafficking, women, politics, etc. And in one group, you can have, so it's really interesting to see this evolution of non-co-terrorism. Yeah, and it's interesting, part of it is a marriage of convenience, part of it is a marriage of, you know, basically, you could say either ideology or what they do. And it's interesting, you know, we look at, you know, this is a region that's obviously been under contestation for some time, but now in this more recent era, we have the use of these technologies that help connect these groups with others, with shared interests, social media, but also even something as simple as the use of cell phones and otherwise satellite technologies that allow them to organize and move. And, you know, it's fascinating to see because this is a part of the world where basically we're talking about the Sahara Desert where the borders are not so clearly defined, there's not necessarily a big obvious river or mountain that separates it. And yet, there clearly is an understanding of who, you know, who this belongs to, who that, but here this region still finds itself under dispute. It's a complicated region because we have the war in Libya in 2011, this was the 13th war in Mayu, really close from the Sahara, and really close from the Algerian Sahara and the Moroccan Sahara, from Mauritania. And we have a list of that, we've studied it in Mauritania since 40 years, 40 years ago. So it's really complicated. And so the debate today is to see if the international community, the UN, can accept the Constitution and the creation of the new state in this region. Marocco said it's impossible for two reasons. For the historical reasons, Marocco considered it part of his territory and for security reasons, because you will have a narco state, you will have a terrorist state close to Marocco and borders, and in Africa. So it will be a really big problem. That's why the world should do not take that. The Trump administration wants to have a solution to this conflict since 40 years old. And a lot of the members of the Trump administration are saying that the independent is not a solution. It can't be, it can't be a solution because it will create new problems in the region, have a lot of problems. So the only one solution, viable solution, is autonomy. It is essentially keeping it within the territory of Marocco, allowing it some better of autonomy. What is proposing Marocco and the King Mohammed's wish is to have representatives of the Saharan population in the national parliament. More another parliament in the Saharan, a local parliament, and to have an autonomy of the culture, the language, and a lot of education, a lot of things to have respect for the sovereignty of Marocco. It depends on why not. So Marocco, that's all the local life and the life of the population. And the Saharan will be the main actors. So it's interesting to see that this conflict is during the 40 years old, and we have Algeria is not proposing nothing. The police are using one to create a state, and what is really interesting is that the police are saying, we are democratic, but it's a unique party, like all the Marxist groups. It's a unique party. You don't have any re-election in the party. A leader who is a leader who has a lot of problems with the Spanish justice, who is unrighteous, who is abusing, and you have a little speech. They said they are democratic, but they don't want to participate in the local election of the National Elegance in Marocco, so it's something really strange. Yeah, yeah. In 2019. And again, and here, this is because we live in a time in the world now where most of the world we could say has been sort of carved out and decided, and yet there are like this one, a number of places where there are some issues to be resolved, and then this place has had a number of different key initiatives, so far, the United Nations, and different occasions, other regional players. I think it shows us the challenge of being very complex, multi-party, multi-ethnic issues that are not easy to resolve because they're of different interests. What about this group itself? Is this a Raoui or are we a democratic republic? Is the ethnic group itself spread beyond that, or is it concentrated just in that region itself? So what is really interesting is that members of the police side are living in the Algeria. And they have like safe haven, a section there? What happened is that a lot of the population in Marocco, are living in the Marocco and the leaders of the police side are in the Marocco. So one part of them are in Tindu, and the leaders of the police side are in Tindu, and if one Sahara will say, I want to come back to Marocco, it needs access, we have a bigger street shock in the problem. So remember when the police side are flying through the Algerian passport. So it's really interesting to see that, and it's really interesting that these people are saying that we represent the Sahara way. They didn't accept any election to see who represent the Sahara way. Marocco is saying, you can have a local program. We have three elections. They are saying we are the only representatives for the Sahara. The other part is that a lot of people are leaving for Ma'il. They are not from the Sahara way. On the part of Marocco, we don't want these people to stay in this region because it's only for the Sahara way. So it's a really close vision of the identity. It's really interesting to see that because we have an international movement who benefits from the Israeli and Cuba international revolution. But in reality, it's a movement with a defining notion of identity. Identity will be strange in the 21st century. Well, it's interesting. And again, here, you just understood the complexity of the decision. And of course, there's conflict that has many different actors and players. It has, like everything, a historical context. You cannot understand this without going back to understand what role the Spanish had as a previous colony. Marocco has been establishing himself as a new state of redefining its territorial borders. And then the other neighbors that have been players from Algeria. Even more Italian, with his own problems, of course. Now, as an issue of the Cold War, what legacy or impact is played out there? And maybe more specifically, are there an influence from other outside actors? I mean, in the old days, the Soviet Union, U.S., everything played out that way. A little more reason, I'm sorry. But historically, we had the U.S. who had been in Marocco. It was not so much. In reality, it was a number of security concepts with the same in Marocco. And from another part, the Soviet Union was going to look at Algeria. And today, what we can see that is a trend in different Marocco positions. And Russia is not with the policemen, but they are not with them in a few years. But we have had this pretend this week had Russia defending the auto-determination. So the consequences of the Cold War, and we have a big problem because, for example, China, in the clear position of the country. What is really interesting is that this conflict is like a lot of African, Latin America, and Latin America. So it's really interesting to see that all the left groups or all the left-wing government in Latin America, who love Venezuela, Bolivia, are defending the police style. And we can see that the construction of the Marocco is really strong now. And what is the problem, for example, in Mexico, in 1979, is organizing is good. So it's a big problem for bilateral relations between Marocco and Mexico. But it's a delicate issue. It's a really difficult issue. So it's really interesting to see that Mexico has in the same position in 1979, and in Mexico, a lot of things changed in 14 years. So it's really interesting. And when I'm just going to look at some of the big end of the course of December, invited the leader of the Policario, Pirahim Gadi. And it's interesting because Mexico is still talking about human rights in the foreign policy. And they're inviting, saying, Ali, that a lot of problems in Spain is just the case of rape and abusing. So it's something really strange that we are living at an international level. We have a conflict of colonization. We have a conflict of a Cold War. We're still there. And we have some positions are not changing. And Mexico changed a lot of positions of its foreign policy, but not this one. Now, back to maybe just to bring some closure and then understand maybe the current geopolitical and organized climate and air element. The group itself is Policario, which is kind of leading the separatist movement. What would you describe or what would you say about the actions that they've been taking that are now really taking even more time or terrorism? So what we know is the European Commission said last year that we have, because it was an investigation, that we have links between the trafficking, arms trafficking between the Policario and some lack of groups of organized crime groups in the Sahara and in the Sahara. So we know that. And we know that, for example, last year too, in 2018, three people from ISIS were arrested in Morocco and in reality, they are no longer able of the Policario to change for ISIS. So we have this connection in the Sahara, in the Sahara. And the biggest switch from Morocco is that the Policario, the metadata with some members of ISIS who have a verification of terrorist attacks in the kingdom of Morocco, the biggest attack. And the other problem is that the Nigerian government didn't want to cooperate about counter-terrorism measures against that. So we don't have a sufficient cooperation between two neighbors against terrorism because we have this regional conflict in more than 14 years. So it's a big problem. And the relation between the Policario and terrorist groups is now 15 years old. And it's interesting to see that in the European Union, the groups who are defending the Policario are, for example, for the most insane. Exactly. We have a legality that is really close to the Nigerian regime. So we have this connection in Europe, in Latin America, in Africa, for example, in South Africa, we have talked to Mao and he was president because one of the biggest supporters of the Policario. Well, yeah, I think as we come to see in this very complex issue, he has many factors that are kind of issues that are more challenging and protracted. There are many layers, many layers happening in different levels. There's a historical legacy that often is rooted in that. And it reflects, again, the kind of conflict that we see throughout many parts of the world in this post-war period, post-war period. And that is focused on ethnic, on identity, on either one group that wants to be free of that or challenge and ultimately the solution in some places. Where do you find a corner that provides power sharing in the region? A corner of, you know, local autonomy. You can have the local parliament and roll over culture and everything like that, but allowing larger states in the city of Morocco to control the territory, the foreign policy, the anti-terrorism, et cetera. I think it can be the best solution. Because in reality, Morocco can't accept the situation of the new state. We have the form of stability of the region. And it's the only solution that can respect the rights of the nation and the rights of the state. And also the stability of the region with the respect of organized crime, et cetera. It's the only one solution because Morocco is not the only Morocco. And I think the negotiation can permit you to have a solution. We have a lot of meetings between the local government and some of the representative of the police are with the UN in Geneva and in New York. And all the UN members in Morocco came with the position and the police said no. And when the UN members told the police are you, what do you want in the government? So you have the same speech, as well, to you. Now we'll close on that. And I thank you for giving us both of you. But I'm reminded, actually, it's been a couple of weeks when they announced verdicts of a very tragic incident that happened. I think it was some months ago, earlier this year, the gruesome murder of some tourist that was coming from an animation. I think they were even candid. It was about a gruesome. Was this in any way connected to this type of room? Or was that something? That was up in the northern part. Yeah, it was. And the Moroccan members of Haiti. Yeah. It was really different. It was a different element. So the problem with the police, because we have those attacks through the Moroccan Sahara against policemen or against soldiers. So another problem remains. So a hot issue. Well, thank you again, Mohamed, for an opportunity to dialogue about this. It's the underscores again, the enduring sort of geopolitical realities of the world. Even the end of the Cold War still had some of these legacies there. And just the challenge of sovereignty, territorial integrity, and national self-determination. These are power policemen that still live up here today. Here's a protected conflict in the Western Sahara that let's hope it over time gets resolved. We're waiting to meet the different interests. Because it's never easy. There's no single solution to it. But if you can guess while Morocco has been putting parts of the table, the other side at this point continues to have a pretty firm position playing out who are independent. But that's not as easy as one would like to see. Well, thanks again. And I hope that this opportunity has been joined here on Global Connections. It's joined today by Dr. Mohamed, Adina, and Jeff. Thank you for this. Thank you, guys. And we'll continue to dialogue on the next chance. Thank you, our listeners. For joining us here on Global Connections, I'm your host, Carlos Buyer. Join us again for the next episode coming up soon.