 Yn y gallu bod gyda'r 80-odd mewn cyfnodol arall, fel y cymdeiligol Cymru, felly mae'n rhaid i'ch gael'r cymdeiligol yma, a'r gwzithau mawr yn ei wneud i'r cymdeiligol i'r Llyfrgell yn bach o'r cymdeiligol, fel mae'r cymdeiligol wedi'i cyffredinol sydd yn bach o'i cymdeiligol i'r cymdeiligol. I'm asking the sub-committee to agree to consider item 3 in our work programme in private. You agreed to take that in private. Thank you very much. The main item on our agenda today is an evidence session, Stop and Search, an issue which arose during our recent work on local policing. I welcome the meeting of Assistant Chief Constable Wayne Mawson. Thank you. Local policing West Police Scotland, Superintendent Gary McEwn, local police commander of five division police Scotland and Brian Barber, Scottish Police Authority member. I understand that both... Thank you very much, by the way, for the two documents. We've got to please Scotland one of the SPA, Scoot and Review document as well, which are very useful. I understand that both ACC Mawson and Mr Barber wish to make some very brief opening remarks. Can I ask ACC Mawson to start, please? Thank you very much, Chair, and thanks for the opportunity to come along today and give some evidence to the committee. Stop and Search is not an end to itself. It's just one of the ways in which we keep people safe. And it's a way in which we reduce violence, anti-social behaviour and disorder by recovering weapons, drugs, alcohol and stolen property and deterring people as well from carrying these things. Later today, the Chief Constable will announce some good performance success in the first year of Police Scotland. And this has led to significantly fewer victims of violence and anti-social behaviour. So, while Stop and Search is just one of the ways in which we keep people safe, it's clearly an effective police tactic. This year, we've stopped and searched in the last 12 months 25,846 young people in possession of alcohol. That's really concerning to me because it's often the forerunner to serious violence later on and perhaps worse still on occasion serious sexual violence as well. 640,000 stop searches last year, 34 complaints, that's one in 18,844. And I'm really keen that we treat people according to our values around integrity, fairness and respect. And the latest feedback we've had from community consultation is that 93.9% of our communities feel they have been treated with respect. Very quickly, there are no targets for volumes of stop searches. Absolutely none. In fact, Stop and Search, contrary to media reporting, is down last year in the first year of Police Scotland by 6.2%. That's about 42,000 stop searches. The positive rate, though, in other words, the amount of alcohol and weapons and drugs that we've taken off people of all ages has actually increased from 13.7% to 19.3%. All that said, though, chair, what I would like to say is there is a need to modernise some of our thinking, some of our processes and some of our practices and we will absolutely robustly take forward the SPA's recommendations, which we welcome. So just very quickly to say, some of the innovations that we've already put in place to meet those recommendations is the creation of a national stop and search unit. Can I just stop you, ACC Morse? I know that the committee would like to ask questions. Without being rude, a lot of that is already in this document, which we have, which is in the public domain, and rather than sort of rehearse it, if we could perhaps just shorten the introduction, wouldn't it be rude, and then hear from Mr Barber and then move on to the questions, which is what the committee, and we have a very short time today. We have to finish by 2.15. So if I might. Absolutely, chair. Do apologise. I'll move straight on to the conclusion then. I think absolutely there is a place for both legislative and consensual proactive use of stop and search in Police Scotland, because it's definitely contributing to keeping communities and families within those communities much, much safer. But there is still work to be done, as I've just said, around process, practice and training in fact as well, so we can continue to enjoy the high level of public support that we currently have. Thank you. Mr Barber, your microphone should come on automatically. Thank you, convener. Just following up on ACC Mawson, stop and search is a matter of great public interest. It does consume a significant amount of police resource. The SPA undertaked to get scrutiny work following our presentation from the Deputy Chief Constable in August, and we have made now 10 recommendations for Police Scotland 2 for the SPA. I'm pleased to say that the recommendations have been received positively by Police Scotland, and we now look forward to working with them to improve policing in relation to stop and search. Thank you very much, yes, because we have that document as well. Thank you. Questions from members? Margaret, Kevin... Oh, sorry, Flurry, yes. Graham, think me. Alison, Graham. Yes. Good evening, John. Good afternoon, I feel fine. I told you, the fan is on the way. Wait, is it? If I could perhaps ask Mr Mawson. You've said it deters, it keeps people safe. And I think we all feel that there is a place for stop and search, if used proportionately. The trouble is, as the SPA review has highlighted, there's a total lack of evidence, any type of robust evidence to support that. How do you intend to address that? I think the evidence really is in the positive outcomes that we're seeing at the moment after the first full year of Police Scotland. With a new approach to stop and search, a more uniform approach across the country, what we're seeing is 10% reductions in violent crime, 10% reductions in really serious violence, and the big ticket issue for me is around complaints of disorder, down 16% and social behaviour very similarly. Now, in real figures, what that equates to is between 50,000 and 60,000 fewer incidences of anti-social behaviour and disorder that blights our communities. So my feeling is that actually the proof is in the pudding, so to speak, and there is a place for preventative stop and search. It seems to me you've absolutely missed one of the crucial points in the report that the outcomes didn't seem to be established, that there isn't the evidence being recorded. We have no idea how many were actually consensual or how many of them went on from being so-called consensual to being statutory or the reasons for that. All that serves to undermine public confidence in the police and also serves to undermine the relationship that the police potentially have working with communities. So could you perhaps be a bit more proactive in what you're saying? Because I'm getting very clearly the indication that everything is really fine and what we're doing just now is perfectly okay. The SPA report makes it crystal clear that it's not the case. I thought I'd made it absolutely clear. There is a need to improve our process, practice, thinking and training. And on that very point, we are about to go live with a significant pilot that will last six months in 5th division, Gary's the divisional commander there, and then we will have it properly evaluated by an independent academic and look at what do we take forward across the force. Can I ask you specifically how will you record the data? How will you tell us how many are consensual, how many have been statutory, the basis for that statutory search and the outcome? Yes, and that's something I was extremely keen to make happen and I've made that happen already. On the 1st of May, I've introduced a new stop and search database that now records the nominal details, name, address, date of birth, the reason for the search, whether it's consensual, whether it's legislative. So we've now got all that data and this is a key thing that will be analysed during the 5th pilot in Gary's pilot, but it's already in place right across Scotland. I wonder, Chair, if it might be a good idea because I sense a number of questions will be answered by all the work that we've got in place ready to go live in just a couple of weeks' time and Gary could give a very quick overview of that if it would be helpful. Let other colleagues come in at this point. Thank you, Margaret. I just wanted to ask Mr Barber before we move on. How will you implement and monitor the recommendations that have been implemented? The chief constable is due to report back as the chief executive of the SPA to the board meeting in September. So we will get a formal response to the recommendations from the SPA. We're also engaged with Police Scotland in terms of the pilot, particularly looking around the success criteria for a stop and search in the pilot. How is success going to be measured? One of the important points for us is the transparency of data because that's really what gives us effective scrutiny. Can I, just before I move on to colleagues, because I couldn't understand something in the... I hope you have your report there at page 10, where I know why you compare Police Scotland with the Met, because that was all that was available, but I didn't understand what was being compared because at the bar thing, you've got statutory, it's page 10, statutory stop and search per officer per 10,000 people, Police Scotland and Met, April to December 2013. Then you've got Police Scotland's statutory, he gives the figures, 287, Metropolitan Police 306. Is that statutory only, or is that, do they do non-statutory? I don't know because the line above tells me one thing, and I didn't know what that was. In page 10 and in page 11, in page 10 we related statutory stop and search for Police Scotland to statutory in the Met because non-statutory is not available elsewhere in the UK. The table at the top of page 11 puts the... That's very helpful, I understand now. I just wanted to, because it didn't say statutory and I didn't know whether there was. I tried to find out and couldn't establish it, so there's no non-statutory searches in the rest of the UK. That's correct. Thank you for that. Thank you. Kevin. Thank you, convener. I think that Mr Mawson said that there were 640,000 stop and searches last year and 34 complaints. Would that be right? That's correct, Mr Stewart. Thank you. In terms of the Fife pilot, which I'm most interested in, I note that you are going to deal with a number of things around about folks who are stopped and searched. You've talked in the paper about dip sampling and subject satisfaction. You go into some depth about how you're going to monitor this and I think that you also said that you already have the new database up and running. I'm most interested round about how you're going to conduct that and, again, I would be interested to know if that will be analysed by your independent academic too. Yes. I could certainly come in there, Mr Stewart, and I will try and be brief because I'm conscious that it's a question and answer session, convener. As a consequence of the last time that I was here, and indeed actually just before that, DCC Fitzpatrick made it absolutely clear to the ACC and I that we need to review our practices in relation to stop and search. And we had a gold group convene chaired by the ACC and we put in place a number of different strands that we thought best would be to actually pilot those strands rather than roll them across Scotland at any point soon. Let's pilot it, let's test it and let's try and improve upon it. The three key strands are around improving data, around improving confidence and around improving the accountability. Quickly in relation to the data, and I think this is really relevant for you, convener, if you recall, discussions we've had before, which was around how could I tell if Christine Grahame had been stopped and searched 10 times in five or five or five or five or five or five? Just to make it clear, much that I would welcome it occasionally. At that point I said that we couldn't, but actually now I can provide you with absolute reassurance that we can. The new IT database that was put in place from the 1st of May, we can do that, we will do that and that will be part of the scrutiny. So that is to provide some reassurance there. In relation, Mr Pearson, for example, you talked about the details of those people being stopped and searched for not being recorded. You were absolutely right historically, but actually now from the 1st of May, all those details, nominal, ethnicity, age, date of birth, where, what type of search is all recorded in the database and will be subjected to sampling. Mrs McInnes, you talked about poor governance, poor oversight, poor scrutiny, and this pilot, the database and some other accountability issues that we have identified, that will hopefully address some of the real concerns that you've raised over the last few months. And I suppose first, let's say thank you for that, because that has actually definitely informed Police Scotland's way forward. Just touching on the improved data, the forward-looking data, this is going to be a new suite of analytical products that actually allows me, my officers and all the officers in Police Scotland to deploy in the right areas. We have used professional judgment, we've used previous crime trends, but now we actually have what's called a GTAT and the SPA make mention of it as one of the recommendations, number three, I think it was. And we now have that analytical tool in place. The officers in Fife are actually getting trained today and from the 1st of July, that will inform the officers so they will know where to deploy a week on Tuesday or a week on Wednesday, rather than just me reviewing retrospectively. So that is really going to improve where my officers deploy, why they deploy there and who they are targeting. And that focuses on the intelligence we're looking to improve our intelligence products. The improving data theme will address, I hope, recommendation three of the SPA report, which is the roll-out of GTAT. We'll certainly test recommendation five, which is know that stop and search focus on the right people at the right time. And recommendation nine, which is about recording the details on the IT system. Moving on to the second strand, which is improving confidence. And I think this is really a big step forward for Police Scotland and for the people and their parents that are subject to stop and search. What we are going to do in the pilot, which commences in the 1st of July for six months, is we are going to send a letter to every parent of every child that has been subject to a stop and search. We haven't ever done that previously. And that letter will outline that your son or daughter was subject to a stop and search in this area and this is the reason behind that. Now, why are we doing that number of things? One is, I think it's morally right as a parent myself that we actually inform the parents to allow them to question their child as to why we're doing that area at that particular time because we do focus our resources and areas of high crime, high violence and high disorder. So I think as a parent, I would want to know if my child was there. I think that it further reflects that we're trying to be open and transparent, that we're telling people that we are stopping searching their children. And those letters will go out within 24 hours during the week and within 48 hours at the weekend of every parent or guardian because there are some looked after children by definition of 17 and 18 year olds that their parent or guardian will get a letter telling them that the reasons behind that. The advice slips on the same strand is another, I think, very positive move forward which is that every person is subject to a stop and search whether it be a child or an adult will get after the stop and search and advice slip which they'll be able to take away with them and to actually personally reflect. Now that advice slip, I'd happily share with members at any point, outlines what stop and search is about, outlines the difference between consensual and legislative and there's also a contact number there for feedback to the police and actually we're using, we're getting up to speed with IT and it's got a QR reference on it which allows people with mobile phones to actually scan it and there's a question set there and actually give some questions which will hopefully improve our organisational delivery in the way in which our people conduct stop and searches. An aid memoir which will be for every officer in Fife division which will say this is how you conduct a stop and search, this is why you're doing it, this is a legislation or consensual and included in that will be a form of words which I have here which is around for any consensual or non-statuary stop and search there is a form of words that we read out in advance of conducting that stop and search to make it absolutely clear to the child or the adult that they do not have to engage and take part in this consensual stop and search so that is no longer a should be or a tool kit, it used to be something that was there. This is now a must for every officer and that will be endorsed in the notebooks and checked by supervisors. What is that form of words? I do have it here actually. Yes. Convener and it's exactly, you can refuse to agree to this search as it's purely being done on a voluntary basis. Do you understand and are you content with this? So that's the form of words that has and it takes me on to the next part of the strand, the IEG, the independent advisory group, these letters, the advice slips in the aid memoir, we have a very active independent advisory group in Fife and they have all went through and been equality assessed, a lot of good ideas and a lot of good changes being made. We've also had the head of education in Fife, council and a number of teachers look at these letters, advice, slips and aid memoirs. Good changes, for example, it was actually a group of children who got access to the letters and the one thing that we didn't have was informing in the letter whether the child had done something wrong or not and the children said, you know, it would be really important when my mum or dad first gets that letter and you know, we'd forgotten about it, we hadn't included it and that was the feedback that came back. Some of the language convener was really positive. We were probably too formal and actually the language is now easily readable and understood which is really important for the communities. I will fly through this because I'm conscious of questions. No, I'd like, I think... Sorry, I'll pause the interview. You've been very helpful, please, you've been very helpful so far but I know that I've got agitated members and I can tell they're agitated even though they look calm. I miss one point of my question, convener. Yes, sorry, Kevin. I think it's one of the most important things because obviously we've had the information that there were 640,000 stops and only 34 complaints, which seems to me to be extremely low. But I think that that dip sampling and subject satisfaction is extremely important to make sure that the system is completely and utterly robust. Who is going to actually decide who is going to be dip-sampled and who is going to decide who is interviewed to find out if that subject is satisfied? I think that's extremely important in terms of ensuring that the process is robust. I think that's the great point and it is the third strand and it's about improving accountability. The dip sampling is going to be undertaken in two different methodologies. One is an independent department of Police Scotland, which is the information management department. We'll do, as we do, with access to Police National Computer. We'll once a week send out a number of letters. They'll interrogate the database and identify some of the stop and searches. They'll then send a letter out to the supervisor of the officer that has done the stop and search and ask the supervisor to check the notebook to make sure that the details are correct and that the stop and search was proportionate and ethical. So that's one and that's going to be done independently and endorsed by the supervisor and sent back into the department. My independent advisory group has a keen on, we've obviously not said this yet, but they will do independent sampling of stop and search to make sure as diverse communities that it's not disproportionately high and they will have the opportunity to dip samples, so that will be a really positive. And the final dip sampling will be getting done by an internal divisional coordination unit of Fife division, which will be 15% of every stop and search we conduct in Fife on a weekly basis, will be subject to a phone call back to the person that has been subject to the stop and search and there is an agreed question set that's been passed through our independent advisory group and education to ask them a number of questions to see if we can improve on the way and the methods in which we conduct the stop and search. Graham Foll but Alison Foll by John Finnie. Thanks, convener. I'll try very quickly to cover three areas if I might in the questions. You mentioned language and I think it'd be fair to, from my own perspective, to note that the earlier responses from the police on this issue reflected a language which seemed prickly in its retention. And I noticed that Brian's contribution earlier, he talked about public concern in relation to these matters and I was grateful that you acknowledged that public concern. The document that we received this morning talked about, undoubtedly been acknowledged, the contribution at stop and search made. The convener mentioned the report from the SPA which couldn't find any linkage and that was confirmed by the Scottish Centre for Crime and Justice Research that they found it difficult to. So I found that that reiteration of undoubtedly being acknowledged is difficult and I think that the police need to take on board that that undoubtedness is doubted and bear that in mind. The other introductory remark that you made, Mr Mawson, was about targets. Again, the Scottish Centre indicated in their analysis that under recording of searches in some areas was due to the fact that performance management culture used numerical targets to drive the number of searches. So there seems to be a clear acknowledgement from the Centre for Crime and Justice Research that at least in the past there were targets and that constant ignoring that fact by senior management creates a worry for me in not either challenging the research and saying it's wrong or acknowledging that there has been targets set in the past and that that culture is now behind us. Would you want to comment on that first? Certainly Mr Pearson, thanks for that opportunity. If we start with the target setting culture, it is the case, certainly in my legacy force area, which was Strath Clyde, that in years gone by we have had a target for volume of searches. But since Police Scotland came into being on the 1st of April last year, there has been no target set for the volume of searches. The only target we've had, in fact, is around the number of positives, the number of weapons we're taking off the street, drugs, alcohol, et cetera. Now, we have tried really, really hard, to be quite honest, to get that message across, face-to-face meetings, email, intranet, and actually getting out there and getting on to briefings ourselves as well. We think we're getting there now. Hand on heart, we think we're getting there. But you're right, there was a cultural thing that we needed to tackle and we think we have done pretty head on. Sorry, Grim, but you said we had no targets for searches, but your targets for weapons, seas and drugs. If you've those targets, surely the add-on to that is you've got to maybe do more searches. I just wondered about that. It's maybe a way around it. I just, without saying it's a way around it, you know, I'm getting at it. If I can maybe save a bit of time. I think that what you would indicate is you would have more effective targeting. Therefore, you'd up the numbers of successes, not necessarily the number of searches. I'm going to let you for giving evidence. The second part of that question was about the success rate. You say nearly 20%. So, in my rough maths, that's about 100,000 successes. Is there 100,000 crime or offence reports then submitted as a result of those successes? And what do you call a success? A success, one person found a possession amongst a group of 10, are all 10 searches successful? The first majority of our consensual searches are for alcohol. And alcohol might not necessarily end in a crime report. So, not every one of those 100,000 positive stop searches will end in a crime report. Someone who's underage found a possession of alcohol, presumably there would be an investigation to trace who sold that alcohol. Yes, we do do test purchase operations in local off licences. But more important for me around children with alcohol is that we follow that up and we make contact with the parents, which is the whole thrust of the five pilot. So, is it all the people under the age of 18 found a possession of alcohol that would be deemed a successful search? It would go on as a positive search because the whole purpose of searching for alcohol is because of our relationship in Scotland. I'm not the first to say this and I won't be the last. It's not a particularly healthy one. It does lead. 18, would that be a successful search if you searched somebody in the street? So, a 21-year-old found the street with alcohol tech successful search? Yes, that would get recorded as a positive stop search for alcohol. I could maybe come in just there. Absolutely, we would issue a fixed penalty ticket for that individual if he or she was found in the street with an open container. An open container? No, there is no offence for somebody, an adult to be in possession of a closed container, walking down the street with a container in his or her bag. But would that be a successful search someone found in possession of alcohol? The adult would be allowed to continue on with the closed container. In relation to the children, we would not necessarily at all actually give them a fixed penalty because we don't want to criminalise children here. What we want to do is take the alcohol off the children, take the children either back to their parents or at least inform their parents and put them into an early and effective diversionary route to actually prevent them getting involved in alcohol. I have read some commentary and media before around this could lead to the criminalisation of children. So, I did some look at that. In 2007 in Fife Constabulary, we had 2,143 reports that we sent to the child's reporter. In 2013-14, so the first year of Police Scotland, we had 335 reports that we sent to the reporter and the rest of the children went into our youth offender management group. So, we are not criminalising kids. We are looking for early and effective intervention to keep them safe and actually to put them back on the right road. I think the first thing that I put on record and I've done previously, the use of stop search is not in itself something that I object to that it can be a very effective tool in dealing with crime. The 640,000 people in Scotland that are subject of search as far as we know and it may be more is a question that needs to be asked. I'm grateful for a change in tone that we received from Police Scotland and I'd like to see that continuing in order that we understand that what you're doing in our name is justified. In that context, therefore, the use of, and I know it's language, but it's important, acknowledging political concerns and talking about political debate are find unhelpful because it doesn't matter about political debate, it's the effect on individuals. And without being argumentative about what you said about not criminalising children, you'll have no knowledge of how many children having been stopped and searched reacted badly to that phenomena and thereafter became involved in antisocial behaviour. There's just no knowing the impact on a young person. The last point I'd want to... Can you explain to me what figure did you say of the number of people stopped and searched? Well, indicated in the statistics, 640,000. Is that stops and searches rather than people? It stops and searches, yes. Yes, so it's not says I'm 40,000 people. But there was a person at the end of each one of these bits of paper. But it might need somebody several... I'm just trying to clarify. Could you mean somebody a few times? I'm grateful. I just was getting a bit scared. And making the connection with the crime stats, would it be fair to acknowledge there's been a very significant decline in the number of young people in Scotland? And knowing that those who report offences and criminality tend to be under the age of 23 and knowing that many of the folk who commit crime equally are under 23 years of age, that that ageing of communities will have some impact on the numbers of crimes reported in the community. And it would be fair to acknowledge that and deciding what actions the police do take that have impact on criminality and otherwise. I think some of what you say, Mr Pearson, we will take on board. I think you're right to some degree. But you cannot argue with the fact that a proactive, ethical and intelligence-led approach to stop and search that takes cognisance of everything that Gary said around being really careful not to alienate young people and criminalise them has had a very positive effect on our communities. Crime is down significantly as is anti-social behaviour. And every community meeting that I go to, without exception, people say, thank you for dealing with this on our streets. It's exactly what we mandated you to do when 31,000 people were involved in the community consultation at the start of Police Scotland. So I think we're doing it right, but I don't want to come across even a slightly arrogant or complacent because we have still got a way to go and it's through the good work of the SPA in crystallising this. And in fact, what some of you members have said in the previous session, that's actually really focused our minds and we're grateful for it. A point about the eating society, have you got any comment off of that in terms of its impact on statistics? It may well do, Mr Pearson, is my answer there. One point I would like to make is around the stuff that Gary said around how we're going to analyse the data going forward in the five pilot. That's really complex, it's hard work and we will do that across the whole of Police Scotland if the pilot suggests it's a success. But what I've been really keen to embed literally in the last couple of weeks is when we look at really young children under the age of criminal consent, so sort of aged 11 and under, and when we look at the opposite end of the spectrum for older people, age 70 or over, I think I've got capacity now in my new national stop search unit to actually review in detail every one of those searches at both ends of the scale right into the weeds every single week. And then a report has to be published to me and I will take that to the force executive every week. So that is the level of scrutiny going forward from next week that I've now tasked out. Thank you. So you're not going to go back over the ones that already happened? On the 1st of May, when the new stop search database with all the names, addresses and dates of birth came into being. But not previous, which we have, the 223 children aged nine and under, you're not able to go back and look at these? I won't sit here and say it's totally impossible, but to contact every one of those officers, get the notebooks and do all that work could be disproportionate. What I'm really keen is saying the 1st of May, we can do it easily. It's the right thing to introduce that database. Let's look forward. Ynna, and first of all, let me say that I'm pleased that there's a, I think, a belated acknowledgement of the need for reform of the practice of stop and search. I suppose I share both Margaret Mitchell and Graham Pearson's concern that there still runs through all of what you've said today and what's in this new paper that we received this morning. A justification of the tactics by relying on reductions in violence and anti-social behaviour, despite the fact that the SPA themselves have concluded that there is no robust evidence of a causal link. And that means that the culture itself hasn't changed. We've done quite a lot round about the practices and the transparency of it, and that is to be welcomed. I'm concerned that there still seems to be a belief that this is justifiable because it's reducing crime, and yet we can look at the Grampen example in this SPA paper where much less stop and search and yet still the same reduction in crime, or we look at in the Met, the stop and search has fallen by 20 per cent since 2012. Use of their section 60, no suspicion, has dropped by 90 per cent, but at the same time, all of the violent crime has dropped by a third or 40 per cent. So I would like you to perhaps spend a little longer talking about the culture behind it and that justification, and it would be useful to hear from Mr Barber, if that's... That's up to Mr Barber if Mr Barber wants to say something. Yes, Mr Barber does. Yes, indeed. Thank you, convener. And when we look at the proportionality of stop and search, certainly one of the things we considered was how big a contributor was this to the reduction of violent crime. Our conclusion was that it wasn't a causal link, but what we did see is weapons have been taken off the street, alcohol has been taken off the street, therefore it does make a contributor, but there are a lot of other policing tactics that also contributes to reducing violence. So I think our debate would be around the proportionality and the amount of resource, but probably more importantly, what is the desired outcome? There are situations where the outcome might be you are targeting no knife carriers and therefore detection is a good outcome. There are situations where, if that's successful, you'd be targeting the same knife carriers and the outcome would be no detections because they'd stopped carrying knives. So one of the things we would encourage Police Scotland to do is to think about the different outcomes for different populations at different times. Yes. I don't disagree with what Mr Barber is saying, that is part of the pilot that I never got to, as we are looking at the outcomes and we are trying to develop more meaningful outcomes which will address a number of the recommendations in the SPA report. I would say, however, that I firmly do believe that stop and search does prevent and reduce crime, and I'm just thinking, as Mr Barber is speaking, in Fife alone in the last month there has been at least two that I'm aware of where 13-year-old girl and a 14-year-old girl, separate areas in Fife have been subject to a serious sexual assault by a 14-year-old boy and a 15-year-old boy. Now, I genuinely believe that if we had got there earlier, because they were both really under the influence of alcohol, both drunk, if we had got there earlier and seized the alcohol, we would have prevented that serious sexual violence towards that 13-year-old child and that 14-year-old boy. Now, both those locations were not part of our hotspots. They were not in areas that we would do stop and search. I wish that was because I firmly believe that we would have prevented that serious sexual violence. So, to say that there is not a causal link, I know through the academic review, it perhaps isn't clear, but my practical experience in those of the officers out in the ground does suggest that, as Mr Barber rightly says, with other covert tools, with high viz, with stopping vehicles and other policing techniques, stop and search does absolutely reduce violence and disorder within Fife and throughout Scotland, I'm convinced of it. You've just said that if you hadn't been focusing on your so-called hotspots and you had been out and about, you might well have just come across that. So, that takes me quite neatly, I think, to this emphasis that you have on intelligence-led stop and search, which sounds good and makes us think that you're doing something sensible. It seems to me that if it was truly intelligence-led, you would only search the individuals that you felt you had intelligence on. What you seem to be doing is you're searching areas, so you're talking about searching hotspots, and that means that anyone within that hotspot can be searched. So, the individuals' own civil rights are not really being protected in that way. If they happen to be in what you consider a hotspot, then they're fair game. Is that how it works? I think in relation to civil liberties, I think that if stopping search is done right, that it will actually support civil liberties in creating a safer environment. Why is it that a member of the public doesn't feel safe in going to the local corner shop because there's a number of youth congregating there that are under the influence of alcohol? Why, as an example, I know in Fife where there was a lady that felt she couldn't leave her home because there was people drug-dealing at the bottom of that flat, at the bottom of the block of flats. There are the hotspots, and that's where we're targeting these individuals, and we don't know everybody that's committing crime, but we know the areas that the crime is being committed, so we have to go there, be intelligence-led, speak to the communities, and if stopping search is the right thing to do, then my officers should be doing it and doing it professionally, ethically and proportionally. If you're doing it ethically, you would be respecting the fact that it's a principle. You're right to free association, you're right to go about your business, you're right to privacy. These are not things that can be traded off. I mean, everyone has that right, whether they come from a socially deprived area or an area that's full of crime or a well-to-do area. And you can't trade that in a utilitarian way in the way that you're talking about. I don't think we're trading it. I think we're supporting the civil liberties of all and those that are responsible for anti-social behaviour or violence or serious sexual abuse, we should be targeting these individuals and we should be targeting the areas there. And there is the part about preventing escalation because if we can address these areas where low-level anti-social behaviour is happening, we can then prevent and we do prevent further serious sexual and other violence. So it is the civil liberties of not just those that are... Not everybody, it's the balance because we need to protect the honest law-abiding citizens whilst targeting those that are responsible. I think I need to press you on this and I need to press the whole panel on this. I mean, article 14 of the Convention, enjoyment of the rights and freedoms are secured without discrimination and it includes specifically including your social origin. So there's an attemptation to say our stop and search is not a problem because we don't have complaints. Our stop and search is not a problem because we're not targeting racially profiled but it would be fairly clear that you are targeting a particular social group within our society. You are targeting young males from disadvantaged areas and we're not hearing their voice about that. So I ask you again about the enjoyment of rights and freedoms for everyone in this society. Mr Barber, you want to commend that. Thank you, convener. On the point of the impact on young people and in other groups, one of the recommendations that the SPA has made is that we need to do research to understand the positive and negative impacts on different groups and different communities. So one of the recommendations directed at the SPA is to conduct, is to commission research in order to establish that because that again should inform how this tactic is used moving forward. Yes, sorry. Yes. Convener, if I could just say as well that we're really, really keen not to alienate young people and have them as a distinct group around stop and search. Genuinely, we don't want that to happen. I've chatted to Mrs McKinnies and I've actually taken advice from Alison. What she said to me was get into the right groups, get the right people round the table and start taking advice and don't think you can do it all on yourself, all on your own. So we've done that. I've set up two things. I've set up a children and young persons reference group which has already met and we will take the views of young people and that will be taken into consideration around policy practice and thinking. And we're also in the process of setting up an expert reference group. This is involving the Council of Ethnic Minority voluntary organisations, Scottish Community Network, the Mental Welfare Association, both Scottish Human Rights Commissioners, the Children's Commissioner, the Children's Reporter, Victim Support, Children in Scotland, et cetera, et cetera. So we're really, really keen to get the right people round the table and say, listen, this is what we're thinking of doing next. This is what is happening in Fife and we're only a month in. You're our sounding board. Where do we go next with this? We need to get away from this kind of aura that we've got that we know everything. Cos frankly, we don't and we're a learning organisation and we're a young organisation. But look at the steps forward we've made in the last few months. My final questions are round about consent and the ability of young people, particularly the people underneath the age of criminal responsibility to actually give consent. And you've set out a clearer statement of the right to refuse. But I just wonder how you define whether or not a child or someone with learning difficulties or whatever has the ability to actually give you that consent and does that appear on your forums? If I could answer that, convener. I think you're absolutely right. I'm going to make a strong statement and I'm going to say here on in, we should not be searching young children under the age of consent on a consensual basis. It has to stop. That's the message going forth. I will be putting out that certainly the message that's going to be trained out for the five pilot but we can't delay on this. I'm not waiting six months for the five pilot to end. I'm going to meet the expert reference group and the CYRPG people and I'm going to say, how do we train this out in quick time right across Police Scotland? Because it's fairly indefensible. I absolutely welcome that commitment. I think that's something we've been pressing for. Yeah, can I just press you on that? See, you think that a five-year-old in a push chair has had drugs concealed on them by their parents or a weapon or something? Is that would be a statutory? So that would take it away from this entirely or alcohol, say it was alcohol stashed on a child. That couldn't be under a statutory. No, that couldn't be under statutory. So what would you do then? There might be child protection issues as well involved. So I'm absolutely with Alison. I can't say a child can give consent but I can also see there might be circumstances where the officer knows perfectly well that the child is a victim sitting there. So how would you differentiate and defend it? We would look after that young child. If I find a five-year-old as a policeman walking the streets of my area, the west of Scotland, with alcohol, I mean, I've never actually come across that but if I did hypothetically, what I would do is what any reasonable person would do. I would take that person home, speak to mum and dad and then if I've got real concerns that actually mum dad or carer isn't looking after this child, then I'm straight into the referrals and getting the right people around the table. Yes. Just to give an element of comfort, I suppose, I had a look at the stop and searches in five for 10-year-olds. We in five, we haven't stopped anybody below the age of 10 in the last 12 months but the age of 10 would stop five children. So I wanted to have a look at the detail around that and one was searched at school in possession of a knife with the teacher was present. One was taken home, suspected of being in possession of a weapon, taken home and searched in the presence of their parents. Two were searched in the presence of a security guard and the fifth one was a young 10-year-old boy that was suspected of breaking into a van and the officers took the decision to search that young lad legislatively just in case because the van had a lot of sharp tools in it and rather than take him home, we had to search him really for his own good and his own safety. And I suppose the point, you know, I think, that Police Scotland are absolutely moving forward with what is consent and how can kids of that age give it. But to give that reassurance that even now, the police officers, it's almost using that Latin phrase, the local parentis, you know, when police officers are doing it, they're trying to do it in the presence of parents or in the presence of school teachers and in the presence of other sort of very responsible adults. So that's what we're trying to do as police officers. Yes, on that, I mean, that doesn't appear in your document that you gave us today. I'm just part of the pilot that that would be some sort of guidance or anything. I mean, there's no way that that, and that might well be good practice in five, but it's quite clearly not how it's being done elsewhere in Scotland where it's being carried out on street corners in every instance. I mean, Lacey says very clear that that's guidance now that's going to go across Scotland. It's going to be, you know, across Scotland about the known, given the known consent and the underage of 12. So that's going to be moving forward. But what you have just said there about searching in the presence of an adult or a teacher, that's not written down. No, the point of that was that actually it's not written down, but that's how officers are doing it out there in the street. That's the only five cases in five in the last 12 months, and these are the five circumstances. But that's the only cases that you can really write down about. That's the only one in five that has happened yet. We don't know whether that's happening elsewhere. I can't know. That's a listen. Jordan, you've been very patient. Can I first of all, convener, express some frustration about the process of today's meeting? I had a committee meeting this morning thereafter. I was in the chamber because I had a question. The normal format of these events is that we pose questions on the basis of information we're provided with in advance, and in this instance, it was indeed the Police Authority's excellent report. If this is delivered this morning and then we're given a lot of information, I have to say it looks remarkably choreographed to me. But having got that out of my system, I'll then move on. Thanks. Can I just say first of all, I wasn't aware it was a tone, such a lengthy document. I saw it at the same time as you, so I wasn't aware of that. I accept your point. No, I accept your point. So, Assistant Chief Constable, I think a 16% reduction in disorder is absolutely commendable, and I hope you'll shout it from the rooftops, and I think your officers are to be applauded for delivering that. And there is no doubt that stop and search will play a part in that. But I have to say it. I sometimes have to suppress a smell with the intelligence lead because I would align myself with the questions that my colleague Alison has asked there. And if it was intelligence lead and acknowledging what Mr Barber has said about repeat searches, then you wouldn't have a 5% detection rate for weapons. It would be considerably higher than that. That's not good intelligence. Let's put it that way. Well, we're constantly refining our intelligence products, and what we've done literally since Christmas is we've devised a new war tracker, a new data zone tracker, and a new temporal alignment tool as well. Can I ask you a question? I don't think the answer to everything is to set up a new unit, and I don't think the answer to everything is to come up with an entirely new vocabulary. It's very, very simple. You know, God watching the public, protect life and property. And, you know, all of these things that become very technical, I believe we're likely to be on the basis of what I've just heard from you this afternoon to be creating a huge bureaucracy around testing. Well, if we get it right in the first instance, yes, there's a role for testing, but surely that's something that the inspector would do as they would do with other tasks or something that there would be an oversight from the authority in. You know, the answer to everything isn't to create a unit and create a whole new spectrum of figures. Well, I do take issue, Mr Finney, on one point, in that time and time again, we've been told you're not accountable, you're not dip sampling, you can't tell us all the figures that you want. We've done that now, and we're making ourselves really transparent, really accountable. And I think it's the right thing to do. I think it will improve community trust and confidence, and that's what we're about. Have any people in your unit? I've got two inspectors that are overseen by a chief inspector. But they've got a wider job, they're part of the licensing and violence reduction department, so this is another responsibility for them. Could you maybe help me if someone declines a consensual search and they don't fall to be considered by the range of other statutory things, misuse of drugs in finance or whatever? Where does that go? That's quite straightforward to answer, Mr Finney. If in the absence of all of the factors, it's a straightforward consensual search and there is no suspicion of criminality, the officer walks away and makes a note of that attempt to undertake a consensual search. On very, very rare occasions, once in a blue moon, and I tried to give an example to Brian the other night, it could be that started with a consensual approach, the person has said no, they're about to walk away. The example I can think of is as that person shifts position and walks away, the handle of a knife can be seen in the rear jeans pocket. The police officer is not then going to walk away and let them go just because they've refused a consensual search. That is once in a blue moon and it will be very, very rare indeed. For the most part, I can absolutely reassure you and this is part of the training that Gary will be doing in the pilot. If they refuse a consensual search, the officers will be told they can walk away. What will be recorded about that? Would you seek to get the individual's name and address, for instance? We will seek to get the individual's name and address, but like any search, unless something is found that's criminal, we have no power to ask for that. Again, I hear reference made and indeed it was made this morning by one of your colleagues about a vulnerable adult's database. Can you link in what we're discussing here with that who is and isn't on that database? Because I understand that some groups are not who many would class as vulnerable don't wish to be included on that database. The vulnerable person's database has been live in numerous legacy force areas for some time. We've created one that now goes across Scotland. It's called the interim VPD. And the idea with this was for the first time in Scotland to have details of serious offenders, sometimes domestic offenders, sometimes sexual offenders, and we now know where they are, who's dealing with them, where their conditions are. So if they cross a boundary, we can now track them and instantly deal with them. That is called the IVPD. Another part of the IVPD is to put on adults of concern or children of concern where it's appropriate to bring in other partners and get proper referral services wrapped around them. It won't be the case for every single stop search of a young person to go on to the IVPD. That's not what it's for. It's where there's genuine concern for that young person and we think, you know what? I just get a sense we need to do a bit more here. We need to get social services, children's services, whatever it is, involved in looking after that young person. And it can be done instantly now on the vulnerable person's database. Again, there are civil liberties issues connected with this. There are groups who lobby me that don't wish to be included in this. I'm trying to understand how... It's back to Alison's point about informed consent. There are a number of people in our communities who have some challenging behaviours. They're not a criminal in the nature. Many of them indeed appear at MSP's constituency offices with frequency. How do we deal with that situation there? Because I know in the past people say, all police officers should be given training on mental health issues as well. People spend years and years training. I'm trying to understand the dilemmas that sometimes your officers will be put in. It's a difficult call, isn't it? And it's about professional judgement. It's about police experience. And it's about, frankly, in plain English, because I don't like management speak. It's about doing the right thing. You know, in fact, police officers do get some training now on mental health issues. It's about identifying, is this person at risk? Could we do something? Should we do something to try and look after them? And it's really as simplistic as that. I think one of the real benefits of the IVPD from those that are at risk is as these people move from one area of Scotland to another now, officers have overview and oversight of their previous circumstances, which was previously not the case. I'm aware of people that have moved into my area from the north of Scotland that have had, they've been at real risk, subject to domestic violence, et cetera, et cetera. Historically, we would never have been aware of that risk and we can now put in protective measures to support them if they so want them as they stay in my area. About the group you set up, Mr Mawson, was that, did you select people or did you go to organisations and ask them to nominate people? Are there any ex-offenders on your group? Are there any... Who complices your group? In terms of the expert reference group, we actually... He talked about there was another group, younger people, was it? Well, the expert reference group will be used to assist us with our thinking and practices and policies around young people, for sure. So there are 17 different members on that and they are the ones I've already spoken around. Plus, we've also got the Crown Office on there, anti-knife crime groups and the relevant members of Scottish Government, as well. One group, sorry, I may be misheard you. I understood that perhaps it was a younger people's group you talked about too. There is a second group, that's the Children and Young Persons Reference Group. And this is a group, it's almost like a youth IAG, really, an independent advisory group for young people. Please, you don't use management speak. Well, IAG is a common term in old police forces, but apologies if you haven't heard of it before. Yeah, it's like a youth IAG, really. So every time we've got a big issue coming up, it might be something really practical, like a big operation in a certain area. What we would do now as a more mature organisation is get the youth IAG in the night before, take them into our trust and confidence and say, listen, this is the operation tomorrow morning, this is what we're thinking of doing. Who are they? Sorry, I'm... I'm keen to know who they are. Have you selected them? Have they been nominated by other organisations? Because, you know, an awful lot of things have happened. For the vast majority of the public are untouched by these, but when we talk about involving the education authorities for young people, the people most likely to be said have perhaps disengaged. So who is your reference group and how did it become that? Children in Scotland, we've also got various other children's charity groups, third sector organisations. We went through our community safety unit who run the large independent advisory group for Police Scotland. They have had these networks in place now for many, many years, and they are experts in this field. In fact, the CYPG, the Children and Young Persons Reference Group, is chaired by Police Scotland's community safety unit. That's not chaired by me, but when I've got an issue, we feed it into there and they're helping us with stop and search as well. A couple of quick questions, if I may. Of course, I've got another two people want to come in. I know you waited, John. It's just we've got to go to the next item. We had a lot of engagement as elected members with regard to things like traffic wardens and indeed counter closures. Can you keep all members advised of developments with this? I think that would be very helpful, because I certainly want to be supportive of proactive policing in our communities to continue to drive down crime, but that needs... The final question that you probably will decline to ask, it would seem that a way around this would be just to have statutory powers of search and do away with all the complications. Everyone would understand exactly where everyone else was. Would you support a change in law? First of all, your first point first, around can we keep you in updated on the Fife pilot? I would really like to do that, and I'll be guided by the clerk perhaps afterwards to see what process that could be. Happy to do it if it's appropriate. The second question around... If this is legislation, that would be for the government, and that would be tough to let the members know. Sorry, updates. I beg your pardon, I thought it was about statutory. All search has been statutory. I was about to say exactly the same as the clerk for the second point. It was me, actually. I don't mind. Now listen, before, I'm sorry, John. Have we finished? I have one very quick question for Mr Barber. What I'll let you do is ask your question, I'll let Alison ask her question, and Graham ask the question, and could we have the answers, please, in writing because I have to move on. So that would be fair. Mr Barber, it's recommendation 5 on the term successful outcomes. Who would determine what a successful outcome is? Right, that's the question. You don't need to answer it. You'll see them also in the official report of the meeting. Graham, your question? It was part of the question I asked you. Initially you didn't give a full response to. When you conduct a stop search in the street, and a group of, say, 15 youths there, one is found in possession of alcohol, is that one successful search, or is it 15 successful searches? Get a response to that. My question was really about how, if there was any difference other than the legal underpinning between a consensual stop and search on a statutory stop and search, in other words, are they both as thorough as each other, or is it just a way to turn out your pockets if it's consensual? Right, and very quickly now that we know that they're getting to ask supplementaries. Quickly, I'd be interested if you still consider the 250,000 hours a year that it's estimated police spend on stop and search is appropriate and proportional. That's it. That's the questions. I know you could probably answer them, but we don't have time. So I thank you very much, and I now move into private session as previously agreed. Thank you very much.