 Welcome back to Think Tech. This is Journeys of the Mind. I'm Jay Fidel. We're talking about Alexei Navalny, Russian history today. We are, of course, at another inflection point in Russian history, and for that matter, because of Vladimir Putin's world history. And for my co-host and guest, we have the regular host of Journeys of the Mind, none other than Dr. Carl Ackerman. Welcome, Dr. Ackerman. Thank you, Mr. Jay Fidel. So, the message lost to Mr. Alexei Navalny. I mean, he has been elated to modernism now, but for sure. But where did he come from? What was he before he became so special? Well, you know, pretty early in his life, he decided he wanted to go into politics. And, you know, he became sort of a lightning rod for Russians who were dissatisfied with the Putin regime. And, you know, what was interesting about Navalny is that he was a Russian nationalist. I mean, he loved his country, and that's why he went back. But what was also very interesting about him is that he really looked like a Russian and he acted like a Russian. So, you know, it's not as if he was a member of a minority group. He was, you know, the real thing. And I think that's what really, you know, he was tall. He was handsome. His wife is beautiful. He is, you know, wonderful children. And he's, you know, he was, you know, a big threat to Vladimir Putin who was getting older and who doesn't look as valiant, even though he bears his chest and rides his horses as Alexei Navalny. Well, we saw him emerge into the front line, different, you know, the headlines a couple years ago, and realized that even in a country of serious repression, a country run by a complete autocrat, there was somebody who would speak against, there was somebody who would risk his life. And even then, we knew that it was very risky business to oppose Putin. There was this fellow who was poisoned and died in a hospital in the UK. There are many people in prison in Siberia who are his political adversaries. Putin, Putin, as the culture of Russia has shown us, it's been very hard on anyone. You know, even under the czar's time, it's a brutal country. And, you know, you say, well, he was, Navalny was a consummate Russian and believed in Russia and cared about Russia. You know, if he was familiar with Russian history, he would have known that Russia had been a very brutal country all the way through in recent times. You're familiar with that. You disagree? Yes, it's not. I mean, the U.S. has its problems too. Is it had a very, you know, rocky history? But Russia has been brutal. You agree? Yes. You know, with one exception, let me just take a little pause here and go through some of the history. And that is, you know, all the way back to when the serfs were freed by Alexander II in 1861, there was a dissident by the name of Alexander Ivanovich Herzen. And he couldn't write freely in country, so he moved abroad. And he was imprisoned, by the way, for a while in Siberia. But, you know, under the czarist regime, things were, you know, not humane, but a little bit nicer if you were a nobleman. He could take his servants and go to Siberia and live, you know, a fairly nice life, even though he wasn't in Moscow or in St. Petersburg. And so what Herzen did is he published a newspaper called The Bell in English, Cola, Cola in Russian. And he, you know, wrote articles to free the serfs. And eventually Alexander II will do this. He'll free 50 million serfs in 1861 as opposed to the 3 million slaves that Abraham Lincoln freed. And he said about Alexander II, the famous line from Julian about Jesus Christ, you have conquered O. Galilean. But if we move on, Jay, into, you know, past the, you know, socialist revolutionaries, into the Russian Revolution, you had a wonderful Democratic Party called the Cadets, made it up over a lot of professors. The guy that I remember the most is Paul Milyukov, who advocated not for the Bolshevik Party, but for a Democratic Russia. And of course, in contemporary history, under the Soviet Union, you have, you know, Andrei Sakharov, you have the Jewish people who want to leave Russia and go to Israel. There were a few as Nicks. And, you know, besides Alexander Solzor-Deepson, Andrei Sakharov was one like Robert Oppenheimer, because he developed the nuclear bomb and then decided, whoops, you know, I better put a curfew tail on this in the Soviet Union, because we don't want to use nuclear bombs, because that will be the end of civilization. You know, you've had a bunch of organized dissidents, both in Russia and in the Soviet Union, but Putin, under Putin's regime, it's the worst, because he will kill you. And the Tsar's were, as I said, lenient. If you were a noble person, less lenient if you weren't. Under Stalin, of course, it was much like Putin. So, I mean, Putin is the new Stalin. You know, I mean, it's just, you know, if you oppose him in any way, you will be either sent to the Gulag, and that's probably a good choice, or just be killed on the spot. And I'm sure that one way or another, the Putin regime killed Alexei Navalny. Oh, sure. You talk about Stalin, Stalin was pretty brutal. Remember the Holodomor back in the 1930s, 1933, where he killed tens of millions of Ukrainians, just to resettle the land with Russian speaking Russians. And that was pretty brutal. And of course, you know, the whole culture of the Gulag and Siberia, and for that matter, the Lubeyanka prison in Moscow. I mean, people went to prison and were subjected to this KGB torture. A psychological torture until they broke, until they died. And so much has been written and filmed about that. It's been the subject of so much public conversation over the years. But you're right, the more oppressive Stalin was, the more oppressive Putin has been, the more likely you will have underground dissidents. It's like, you know, it's like the resistance in France under the Nazis. You know, if you are oppressive, that's what you get. And the question is the tipping point. You know, this was a really bad move at this point in time for Putin to kill Alexei Navalny. Really bad move. And it just works out so that it's a powder keg now. And we should talk about exactly what kind of powder keg it is and how it may play out. But it seems to me that this could lead to revolution. And when I think of revolution, I think of Dr. Zhivago. I think of Julie Christie, who I greatly admired in that movie, Allah Sharif. And it's a statement. That movie is a statement of the Russia Revolution. And how it disrupted everything and how you had a run for your life. And so in this case today, there's no way you can run. He'll catch you and he'll kill you. Like he did the pilot in Spain. Like he did the dissident or the defector in London with this special poison. At the way he did Navalny with the poison. In any event, it seems to me that this is filtering out into the Russian public. And little by little, they're beginning to understand what a monster. And that makes them remember Stalin and the stories from their parents and grandparents about Stalin. And they can't really escape the threat of this kind of brutality. So query, where's the tipping point? Where do we see Julie Christie and Dr. Zhivago rebelling? Where do we see the dissidents getting more powerful? Well, you know, I mean, with the trade with China and India, you know, things have not been so bad economically in Russia. I'm not good, but not bad. And I think, you know, with Russia's resources, that is natural gas resources, Putin can rely on this. Although, you know, the United States is going to issue in the West more sanctions. But still, I think what the key component is right now is and it was similar to the Russian Revolution. You know, during the Russian Revolution, of course, there was World War One. And, you know, if the Ukrainians are able to survive and get, you know, supplies from the United States, this will be, you know, an additional burden on Vladimir Putin, because people are already very dissatisfied and they're losing their husbands, their brothers, their sons. And so I think this is going to create an internal pressure. If this coincides with some sort of severe economic downturn, then I think Vladimir Putin is going to have some problems on his hands. Russians do like strong men. They like, as they would say in Russian, Silny Chilovic, a strong man. And as you and I have discussed, Jay, you actually sent me the tape. Alexei Navalny made this wonderful anti-corruption tape about Vladimir Putin. And he could, you know, Vladimir Putin could not allow a guy like this to expose all of his, not millions, but billions of dollars of corruption. And so my, to answer your questions succinctly, I would say that you've got one of the issues that you had with the Russian Revolution right now. That's the warning, the crane. What you need is a severe economic downturn. And we hope that, you know, Democrat Maldi will take over Russia as opposed to something totalitarian like the Bolshevik Party or the Communist Party Soviet Union, right? And we don't want people like Vladimir Lenin digging over or Joseph Stalin. We want someone like Navalny, who was a Democrat Maldi. Yeah. Well, that's a, that's a happy thought. You know, the problem is there's no succession plan, and it's not going to happen naturally. Putin is going to stay in power as long as he can, and he's going to repress as long as he can. And the likelihood is that there'll be a scramble when he dies of natural causes or whatever causes. And then, you know, the people who scramble are going to be the strong men again, the autocrats, the brutality people, and we'll have another Putin. Although I think Putin is really special. Putin is special in the history of Russia. But one thing, you know, is very, there's two things I'd like to mention in response to what you said. Number one is that the United States does not support Ukraine. There's a, there's a chance. It's on a, it's also an inflection point that the countries of the EU will try to make a deal with Putin and give away part of Ukraine. We know that Trump would do that. And some of the, you know, some of the countries in Europe will try to do that if there's no support from the US. And that creates, you know, sort of an end game strategy for Putin. And it alleviates the problem of having a war on his western border and maybe that it improves his prospect. On the other hand, as you say, if the war continues and if the US supports Ukraine in all the ways Ukraine has been requesting, then maybe that, that creates one of those legs of the stool, so to speak, and puts Putin at great risk at home. Because that, you know, wars cost money and wars cost lives. And these things are eating away at his popularity, even if he does all the things he's doing to maintain that. But the one thing I see is this, we talked in the recent show here on ZincTech proxy wars about how people, you know, infiltrate other countries, seeking not necessarily regime change, but seeking to undermine them and seeking to create disruption. And he, Putin, does that with us. I mean, it's clearly shown that he has done that, is doing it now and will continue to do it with Trump's help, maybe for Trump, which is, you know, they're on the same page, those guys, for reasons that we do not yet know. But here's what I'm thinking. You know, the Dr. Jovago scenario, a revolution, it's not likely to happen within the four corners of the, what is it, 130 million people in Russia, not likely to happen as things stand, but other countries will be involved. They will support the resistance. They will support the dissidents, such as the journalists who have run away from Russia and publish about Russia from, of them the Baltic states and I get their emails and their newspaper, so forth. Medusa is the name of the organization, but there are others also, you know, in the Balkans. And so there are people who would, outside Russia, who would support the dissidents, who would support the resistance, who would support a revolution, however you define that. Don't you agree? I do. Pardon me. The one provision I would have is, or exception, is that, you know, Russians are used to living, one must remember that it wasn't until 1991 that things changed and you even had Democratic elections. And of course, you had particularly Democratic elections under the Tsar and the Duma tradition with democracy. And so the kind of evolution that would come from a new regime would be interesting. And we just have to make sure that, you know, that regime remains like Boris Yeltsin had it, you know, I mean it was flawed, but it was Democratic and there were elections held. And interestingly enough, Vladimir Putin has to go through an election process, which I find, I mean, of course, he knows that he's going to win. And there's kind of an interesting story. When Dmitry Medvedev came to Pudoh's school, you may remember that there was a brief period when Vladimir Putin couldn't run again by the Constitution. And so he kind of appointed Dmitry Medvedev. And then there was a reelection where Putin could run and he was asked a question at Jim Scott's house, the former president of Pudoh, whether Putin was going to win. And he said, of course, I mean, I mean, with such surety that, you know, American politicians aren't that arrogant, most of the time. No matter what, you know, maybe, maybe Trump during the current primaries, but I don't think he would say even he would say, oh, for sure I'm going to win the general election on. But, you know, Putin and Medvedev both knew that, you know, if he didn't win, things would be changed so that he could win. But I am hoping that there will be regime change as you are, Jay. And one of the interesting things about the corruption tape that was in Russian and then translated into English that you and I both saw, people can fight it on YouTube. It's all about Putin and Navalny as the broadcaster or editor or person who tells the story. Is that even before the former Soviet Union, things were done by corruption and the word was oblatu by, you know, other means or Nilevo on the left. And even though you would walk into stores in Russia and there would be no coffee, there'd be no fruit. You go to people's houses and there'd be coffee and fruit and you kind of go, well, how did that happen? And so there's an orbeez, you know, black market in Russia. And this fits the tradition. And, you know, although what that videos, the extent of the video would shock even Russians, you know, the small amounts of corruption, the small amounts of doing things as they say Nilevo on the left, Russians would forgive. Americans would not. I think America would say, hey, you know, this is corrupt, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Even though, you know, Donald Trump has convinced a lot of the Republican Party that, you know, it's just, you know, a fake charade and sort of a fake prosecuting of him as a political entity. The great, the greatest statement by an American politician, greatest in the sense that it's totally absurd. And it's really, it defies all sense of humanity is Donald Trump comparing himself to Alexei Navalny. Alexei Navalny is a hero and a very brave man. And for Donald Trump or anyone, any contemporary to compare themselves to Alexei Navalny, I think is just a great. Well, disgusting. And the comparisons are Martin Luther King, Jr. and Nelson Mandela. Interestingly enough, Jay, this is just something that I think that you would be finally interesting is that, you know, when Mandela was put into jail, his wife took over. And that's what's happening with Alexei Navalny. And she also represents, you know, the image of the great Russian woman. And so I think she could become very popular like her. Yeah, we have to examine here in this discussion, how the death of Alexei the killing of Alexei Navalny changes, you know, changes the landscape changes the calculus in terms of the possibility of the Russian people rising up. You can you think about it. What a tremendous waste the Cold War was. What a tremendous for them. What a tremendous waste. You know, the Cold War number two is for them. If they can only recognize how wonderful it would be what a great reaction they would get from the West. Were they to embrace the West, where the West to embrace them, their economy would expand their quality of life and personal circumstances civil rights would expand it would be a beautiful thing to watch. And sometimes, you know, we think maybe that would happen. But I think we dilute ourselves actually, because it's deep in the culture we are right now. However, they do have a culture of revolution. They do have a culture of rising up against an autocratic or monocle and archival system. And so the possibility exists just as a logical possibility. However, the Valny's death is killing is an inflection point. And the question I put to you is, how does it change the calculus? How could it change the way the Russian people, all 120 million of them, whenever it is 130, who have been subjected to this propaganda for as long as Putin's been there? How does it change their way of thinking? Does it make it more likely that they will rise? I think it does. I think that, you know, and because who Navalny was as a great Russian, and how he looked, and how Russian, you know, I mean, even if people were too afraid to speak out and there are people who have been going to his, you know, setting up memorials and being arrested. And, you know, even a woman who gave some money to the Ukraine and went back to Russia, who's been arrested, you know, it's really crazy. I think that you'll have people, you know, especially, you know, inner police and things like that, well, that will be loyal to Vladimir Putin. But I'm not sure how this makes for people wanting to be loyal to Vladimir Putin, except out of fear. As long as the economy is, you know, running along and it seems to be, I don't think he's in great danger of revolution as of yet. But as I said before, the war in the Ukraine, if it continues, it's going to continue to, it's already, people are already upset and they don't buy the reasons that they're there. I mean, it's sort of like what happened in the United States with the Vietnam War. I mean, eventually a majority or close to a majority of people said, hey, what are we doing this for? Now, why are our boys dying? That's happening in Russia right now. But there has to be, you know, something going on in the economy that forces Russians to take a look not only at themselves, but at Vladimir Putin. And, you know, if the economy goes sour, I think you're going to see some, you'll see some demonstrations and you'll see some people coming out of the woodwork. Well, that's why these sanctions are, the sanctions are really important. We don't really have control over the economy in Russia, but the sanctions could add some effect. They've had less of an effect than we hoped up to this point, and he has been wily enough to get around a lot of them. But, you know, for example, this is a maneuver now to try to take seized Russian assets and convert them to cash and give the cash to Ukraine. I don't know why Biden hasn't done that already. That would be a good thing. That would help Ukraine and it would certainly not help the oligarchs. But let me, let me ask you this. And right now, we have the body of Alexei Navalny is held in a small town in Siberia near the prison where he was killed, where he was incarcerated and then killed. And in my view, he was killed because he was such a threat as revealed in that video you mentioned a minute ago. The one in Russian, the one that goes on for an hour and hour and a half about, you know, the corruption, the credible threat by the hundreds of billions, all in favor of Putin and his friends. That is such a threat that he had to be killed. So that, that gets out. That's part of the calculus that video which is all in Russian gets out and it is explosive. When you see that video, you realize the depth and scope of the corruption is like never before in the history of the world on a relative basis as they've been corruption of that depth and scope. But there she is trying to get his body. Now, the drug they used on him before, what's it called? Do you remember the name of the drug? I just seem to remember that it was somehow tied to new activity or, you know, it's radioactive. Yeah, I think so. And it's a weapon that only the army has and all you have to do is touch it and you're dead. And so the army has to deploy it. It's not like, you know, they can get some contractors. No, no, no, it has to be somebody very well experienced. So, okay, so the point I make is that she's in this town trying to get his body so she can do a chemical analysis and figure out how they kill them. And in the previous poisoning thing, the Russians withheld his right to leave Russia until I think it was 48 hours so that the poison they gave it would pass through his body. A live or dead, it would pass through his body, it would be undetectable. That's why they held him up. And that's probably why they're holding his body up now. So she can do the chemical analysis she needs to do with her experts to find out how they kill them. Because over time it becomes more difficult. Okay, and they say, well, you want his body, you're going to have to agree that the funeral will be secret. And we'll put him in a grave, very quiet funeral at the edge of the cemetery. No press, no nothing. Nobody invited. And if you agree to that, we'll give you his body. Of course, that's probably not true. They won't give her his body because they have to wait out whatever period of time that was. It may be 48 hours. It may be a month. But that's the proposal they made to her. And she's sitting on that right now. She's deciding that question right now. I care about my husband's body. I want to know how he died and what you did to him. On the one hand, on the other hand, she would have to capitulate with a theoretical deal. She would have to capitulate and agree to a secret funeral. I find that so interesting. Secret funeral is what they want from her. So my question to you and trying to elevate her to stand in Navalny's shoe and to be, you know, within the ambit of his moderate and to have the people continue to protest, you know, and be dissident. The Russians and Putin, they're trying to let the news cycle move to something else, right? He's an expert in that. And intervening news, they will forget about Navalny. He can't be a martyr, you know, in a month or two. If he's going to be a martyr and some effect through her, Julia, it's got to be now. So if you were sitting in a room with Julia, what advice would you give her about this dilemma that Putin has presented her with? The agreement he wants her to reach. You know, it's hard to, you know, it would be hard to give advice to it, to a wife or to a mother. But I would say the biggest political impact, you should insist on a large funeral like in Moscow or St. Petersburg. And otherwise, allow the body to go to the west. And then you can, you know, have, you know, a huge gathering where, you know, it'll be impossible for Putin to suppress a gathering in the west. But I wanted to come back to your original 1917 revolutions analogy because there was another, there were other deaths in Siberia. And that was bizarre in his family, who the Bolsheviks killed, children, you know, protectors, Nani, in Siberia also. So the parallel is pretty significant. Well, if I were her, and I have another question after this, but if I were her, no issue, they're not going to let her find out what chemical agent killed him, what, what other brutality they used on him, they're never going to let her find out. What whenever deal she makes, that's never going to be available to her. But if she says no, I'm not going to do that. And what she can do is organize funeral in Moscow, somewhere a populated place in Russia. And she can point out that they have never given her the body back. They have made it impossible for her to get the body back. So we're going to have a public funeral in absentia. And that would enhance his moderate. Don't you agree? You do agree. I do not to put anybody in jeopardy. I would probably do it in the west. But you could do it just as a heck of a and you can have a lot of the dissident sure in the west. You know, Masha Gisen and, you know, a variety of writers and come to the thing in the west and then broadcast it in Russia. And, you know, people will understand as they did where I started Alexander Harrison couldn't publish his paper in Russia. So he published it in London. And so, you know, I think this is the remarkable thing is that his wife has taken up the banner. Because it's really quite a burden. But she has and well, I worry about her. If he killed the volley and she takes up the banner, she's at great risk of being poisoned or killed in the same way. You know, maybe she falls out of a plane like Progosia or in the case of the Spanish, the Russian pilot in Spain. He was shot dead by some people with guns in the street. You know, and it's it's deniable as far as it's always deniable as far as Putin is concerned. But we connect the dots. We know that he and thank everybody making public statements. Now, your point about moving this whole affair, this funeral in absentia into the west, I think it's a good point because she doesn't take the same risk. Although, you know, truth is, Putin can chase her anywhere and kill her anywhere as he has with various dissidents in the past. But she'd be safer, say, for example, in Germany, Germany would protect her. And so if that's the case, it wouldn't be quite as effective in terms of dealing directly with the Russian people, but it would be sustainable. She could do it and continue to do it for a period of time and she could use news channels, including the journalistic organizations that have moved out of Russia and are publishing about Russia from, say, the Baltic states, you know, where they where they are now. Medusa is the example. And they're very effective. So with technology, with telecommunications, with the Internet, that would be the best bet, I think, for her to maintain the modern dip, maintain the dissent, maintain the pro, because she could actually do that. And with the technology, she could reach the Russian people one way or the other. Do you agree? I completely agree. And I'm thinking about, you know, speakers who could be, you know, quite profound and even national speakers. I mean, let's say she gets Joe Biden in there, you know. So, you know, or the prime ministers of France or Germany, et cetera, et cetera. So, yeah, I think it's a, Jay, I think it's a great idea. But I'm glad during this show that we had the opportunity to talk about, you know, other Russian martyrs like Andrei Sakharov, Alexander Herzen, the cadets, the refusedics, and others who, you know, refuse to obey either the Tsarist or Stalinist system. But of the three, that is, the Tsarist system and Stalin. I think that Stalin and Putin are on the same level, which says a lot about Vladimir Putin. You know, it strikes me that whatever she does, whatever the U.S. does, I mean, assuming that Joe Biden stays president, hopefully not would. There's a lot to be said about unearthing the corruption that Putin has been involved in. It's not just money corruption. It's the corruption of these proxy wars. It's the corruption of feeding weapons. It's the corruption of being a rogue state. He's created a terrorist state, a rogue terrorist state. And he's muddied up with other rogue terrorist states. This has to be revealed to the world. Now, Joe Biden and the intelligence community in the U.S. could help with that. It wouldn't make, you know, any better friends with Putin, but hey, he's not our friend anyway. So what's the problem about revealing more about what we know of the intelligence community? And so that tight-lipped about this, that we must know much more. And that could come out in the case of Julia's efforts to convince the public, the public in Russia, you know, that they should vote against him, vote against anybody but him. So, you know, there is a chance at getting some democracy, some fresh air into Russia now. Now at this inflection point, now with her, now with her out of the country and being supported by journalists who left the country and other Russians who left the country for whatever reason. We know there are hundreds of thousands of them that moved into, you know, the South, the former satellite countries in the South and Central Asia and so forth. They're there. And they don't like what Putin is doing. They don't like the war. And if the U.S. done on board and Western Europe done on board, it could be a fantastic propaganda war and maybe it would work. Your thoughts? I think it's very true and I just wanted to tell our audience two things. One is that if they see the video, I think this video is extraordinarily important, but also the video that Navalny made. Actually, Putin has assembled a hit squad and he names the names of these people in this hit squad that, you know, that if you're causing problems, you will, you know, you will see the consequences if you're in Russia or not. And also just to tell our audience, you know, it's just wonderful to have an organization like Think Tech Hawaii. And so I urge people, if you want the news that you can get like this about Russia, you should go to Think Tech Hawaii. You should support. You should not only watch the show, but support financially or otherwise. Think Tech Hawaii as headed by the men. Well, I want to make one last statement. Carl, if you don't mind, you know, the fact that this fellow Smirnov, who fed disinformation to the government and caused a number of members of Congress to go up to Joe Biden with an attempt to impeach him was so outrageous. And then to find that Smirnov, who is fluent in Russian and his wife is fluent in Russian or Persian, you know, they have close Russian ties. And the disinformation came from Russia. It came from the intelligence organizations in Russia. So he was, you know, directly linked. So, you know, what you get is Liz Cheney's statement that the GOP, now the MAGA GOP, has a Putin, a Putin wing. And a Putin has got his hands around Trump. Some reason Trump is dedicated to Putin and apparently indebted in some way. And Johnson works for, Mike Johnson works for Trump. And then the whole MAGA organization works for Trump, the base works for Trump. So all of what we've been talking about, the inflection point and whether Navalny's death will resonate, could resonate among the Russian people, it depends on what happens in this election. Heather Cox, Richards and Rope about this really filthy connection between Trump and Putin and Johnson and a number of members of Congress who follow Trump. And, you know, I think the one thing I would leave people with is if we elect Trump again, my God, we are going, you know, Ukraine is lost. Putin is elevated. Trump will do what he can to allow Putin to essentially invade Western, rather Eastern Europe and Western Europe. And so the future of the world really hangs on the election here in this country. And I would say to anyone who was even a tiny bit inclined to vote for Trump for any reason, better take another look at that because it has implications right into what's going on in Eastern Europe. Really heavy, rack and pinion implications. That's my closing statement. Well, your comments are made by Nikki Haley also. And I realize that she's running. So, you know, it's not a Republican versus Democratic thing. It's a silly notion to dissolve our NATO ties. And it's an unproductive and dangerous notion to allow anyone to do what Vladimir Putin did in the Ukraine, whether a Democrat small D, whether a Republican, whether an independent. It, you know, it rings so closely to the invasions of what was then the East by Adolf Hitler. You know, I mean, you know, you got to stop these guys and you got to stop them quickly. And the only thing they respect is strength. So, you know, it's a notion that's really in some sense larger than politics. It's just common sense from what we've learned in history. And, you know, for anyone watching this show, that's when the word appeasement became a bad word during World War II. And we cannot appease Vladimir Putin. That's my last word. Okay. My last word on your word is Shakespeare. The question for the country now is to it's not political. It is to be or not to be. That is the question. Thank you so much, Dr. Karl Ackerman for this interesting discussion about the implications of the killing of Alexei Navalny. Thank you so much. Thank you. Aloha.