 All right, so we'll call the special select board meeting in January 5th, 2022 to order and then we'll let you guys call your meeting to order next and then we'll open up the just we'll call a public hearing to order. We'll just go through and do some introductions. So Berlin meetings call the order. Call the school board meeting to order too. I have a point of clarification or just that question for you guys. Are you guys keeping the minutes for everybody? Yes. Okay. Thank you. Yeah. All right. Kristi, as you know my mind was going to call the John was just noted by Mr. Chair. Was that virtual? Yeah. All right. So the public hearing is now in order. I'm Justin Lawrence, Chairman of the Berlin Select Board and we'll just let everybody here going to go around and introduce themselves to my rights. Brad will start with him. I'm Brad Town, the select board member. Tom Bernalski, kind of brilliant. Ford Smith, Secretary of the Select Board. Carolyn DeLisle, Chair of the Planning Commission, et cetera. Yep. We've got Time Administrator. Vince Conti, Time Administrator. And John Quinn will be joining us shortly remotely. That's all of us here this evening. Thank you. We can go around too and introduce ourselves. Okay. And now Florida Smith, Chair of the School Board, and I'm going to pass it on to Kari, Vice Chair, and then Kari pass it on to somebody else. Hi, I'm Kari Bradley. I'm from town of Callis. Diane, why don't you go next? Hi, Diane Nichols Fleming from Berlin. Ursula? I'm Ursula Stanley. I'm from Middlesex. Micaelyn? Micaelyn Leclerc. I'm from Worcester. Jill? Jill Olson. I'm from Middlesex. Now we're playing a game of memory. How about Jonathan? That's great. There's nothing Goddard. I'm the School Board member from Berlin. And how about Maggie? Maggie Weiss, I'm a School Board member from Callis. No, because I'm Jonasino Vansino, the School Board member from Worcester, and I will pass the conversation. Scott Thompson from Callis, and I'll pass to Chris who is connecting to audio. Maybe Lindy go ahead and then move it so that we can introduce Jen and Chris O'Brien too. Okay, I'm Lindy Johnson, a Board member from Eastmont Pealier. With us, we have Jen, our superintendent. Jen, go ahead and then choose. Hi, I'm Jen Miller-Cinneau. I'm the Interim Superintendent and we have two other members of our team here. So Chris and Erin, you want to introduce yourselves? Sure. Yeah, I'm Chris O'Brien. I'm the Director of Facilities for the district. Hi, and I'm Aaron Boynton, the Principal at Berlin Elementary School. So thank you everybody for joining us. We don't have any additions or changes to the agenda on our end. Anything you guys want to put out there for additions or changes immediately? No. Excellent. All right, so next up on the agenda, I have some presentation information as to where we're at, why we have to call this meeting. I'm going to defer mainly to Carla for this. She's very knowledgeable and has been working on this project for a very long time, has been very involved in it with the town. Are there, I guess my other quick question is, is there only Jonathan? Were you the only Berlin School Board member that was on there? Who's on there? Oh, Diane, you're on there. Sorry. I just didn't see if everybody was in attendance. That's all from the town of Berlin especially too. Just curious. Yeah, just that Vera was not able to join us. She did send some input, but she's not able to join us. Okay. Okay. Okay. Well, I'm sure we'll share that. We'll let Carla take over with the presentation and we'll go from there. Thank you. Hi. I do want to thank everyone on the Spuck Board and the Supervisor Union for the opportunity to meet and discuss the land gift. I've been on the Planning Commission since 2011. Chair for most of that time. I grew up in and currently live in Berlin. During the day I work at the Vermont Department of Financial Regulation where I was an attorney for 10 years. Recently became a Director of Market Regulation. In preparation for this presentation, I did watch the School Board meeting where this was briefly discussed. And based on that meeting, I felt that the Board really raised two questions. One was whether Berlin actually needed this parcel for the Newtown Center to move forward and the other was what opportunities there were for public participation throughout this process. So I tend to address those two questions tonight and of course answer questions as they arise. But my hope is that I can adequately address your concerns because currently the matter is quite time sensitive. There are a few projects that I would say are hinge on this land gift. And so in light of that, I did want to ask if you intended to vote tonight. That was not the information that was given to us. Today we are here for a hearing with you guys and you're presenting to the town of Berlin and we're here to listen to your point of view and what the Berlin residents have to say about this project. We would be taking this January 19th meeting. The date that was given to us was February and today's opportunity for everybody to hear about the project and ask questions. But we are not making a decision and that was part of the agenda. There were no decisions to be made tonight. Okay. Thank you for that information. I guess I will attend your meeting then. I guess the reason I ask is I worry that questions arise after the meeting and there's no opportunity to answer those. So I was kind of hoping we could make a decision tonight but I hear your point. I first just wanted to make some preliminary comments regarding this gift because the discussions have been ongoing for some time and it's my understanding that they began in September or August of 2020 and that there was in fact a board meeting in March of 2021 where this was discussed. That the former attorney actually approved or recommended approving the gift. But the changes that occurred at the Supervisor Union essentially led to the decision not happening. So I raise that only because this isn't a new topic. It hasn't something that's been being discussed for a while and I guess I just want to make sure that we all are on the same page in that regard. It's time to make a decision I guess. And I did want to just give you some background on the new town center. I understand that a lot of you expressed support for the town center and sort of separated out the land issue but I intend to show why they're integral. But the concept of the town center has been a goal for this town for decades. It was championed back in the 80s I believe by Pat McDonald and the Economic Development Committee. In fact the town center zoning district was created in the 1986 zoning regulations. So the work of creating this town center has been going on for a very long time. The town actually began to explore the new town center designation which is a separate issue with the state in earnest in 2016. We had a meeting with the ACCD regarding the requirements with new town center designation and at that point we discovered that there was a lot of work to be done before we can even apply for the designation. So the vast majority of the work that the Planning Commission has engaged in for since 2016 has been in preparation for the town center. And I will go into more detail about what we had to do later. And I'm realizing that my outline is kind of out of order but I'm going to stick with the way I arranged it because I first will talk about the need for the land. But I do want to address some comments that I sometimes hear about the town center that only benefits the mall. And I think it's really important for everyone to understand that the town chose this site. The town chose the mall site and the surrounding land back in the 80s. This is not something that the mall initiated. And secondly whatever benefits the mall frankly benefits the town. And so the fact that the mall benefits is secondary to the benefits that it brings to the town. And in fact I would argue that we're lucky that the mall is committed to this project and to this redevelopment because many towns and cities have vacant malls with no hope of redevelopment. So I feel like we're in a lucky position. The new town center designation offers various benefits to developers such as permanent relief and funding priorities. And to the town also funding priorities for municipal grants and the opportunity to create a TIF district. But in my opinion one of the biggest benefits to the town is the ability to better control the pattern and the form of development. Which is to say we can better direct how that land gets used through the use of zoning regulations. So first question does the town need this land? The short answer is yes. This new town center application we began in 2020. It's been an extensive process. It was a very collaborative process including collaboration with the mall, the hospital, the other landowners, the supervisor union superintendent was involved. And also in state agencies such as ACCD, A&R, and the Central Mont Regional Planning Commission. The concept plan has evolved over time. It was challenging due to the legal and natural constraints of the site. There's extensive wetlands and that's made it particularly challenging even though it has been stated that the wetlands are compromised and that the project will likely improve their functionality. But we still have to be cognizant of those wetlands and try to work around them. But the plan has always included this gateway to Route 62 which with development shown on both sides of the road so to speak including on the school land. And that's the reason that the town began the conversations with the supervisor union back in August of 2020. It's because of this concept plan and the fact that it was integral to the Newtown Center designation. And I just want to touch a little bit on what I'm going to call the contentious nature of this decision. Oh, did you want to talk, Justin? No, I just want to know if you want to like after you went over that if you want to see if there are any questions. I will have to end on my little thing. I was going to go by phase and so on. That's all right. And there was a lot of animosity when the mall was built in the 1980s. There was a lot of opposition. And I have to say that it appeared that some of that remained when we went through this application process with the state. There were certain entities and that were not in favor of this development. And so throughout the process we received some mixed signals from the state and I think a lot of it had to do with differing opinions from differing agencies. And I only raised this because this decision was hard fought and wrought with compromise. And any variation in the proposal will be detrimental to the future of the designation. The conversations that we've had with the state since the conditional approval they have asked every time if we have gotten the land gift approved. So to them this is a big piece of the designation. The housing proposal I think was key to us getting it. The Fox Run project was and the prospect for having that housing project built was a big factor in getting this approved. And that whole gateway concept and the block form at that end of the development was key to the decision. So my answer to your question that was this necessary is yes. I do believe the future of the designation would be in jeopardy if we do not develop it the way we propose in the concept plan. So I guess I'll pause there. I just wanted to add that prior to the merger the town had discussed and knew that this would probably be a relevant piece for the development of that property. And we had concerns that something like this may arise. So while we did approach the board what was it 2020? Yes that was when it became to the point where we had to approach the board we knew this was going to be ongoing from the start and we wanted to address that earlier but because of the time frames we weren't able to and this is when it really impacted the application. It was basically when we started the application. Yeah so that's when. And I apologize I had intended to have Bonnie wanted your comment. We invited Bonnie and Eileen He from the hospital to give some comments and I intended to let them speak before I jumped into my presentation. So I do want to just pause and allow them to make their comments Bonnie did you want to go first? Can you hear me? Oh great. I love technology. There you go. Thank you so much. I just wanted to weigh in from a regional perspective if I could. The Regional Planning Commission for those of you who don't know we serve 23 municipalities in central Vermont and Berlin is one of those communities. And as we've worked with the town on this project and tried to move it through the state process you know our board of commissioners which represents Berlin and all the other towns has been very excited to see the potential for that kind of infill development in Berlin. To bring housing if you've tried to purchase a rent or home lately you know that it's high cost and low availability. So anything we can do to help move this process forward and help create homes for people. I think it's something I just want you to know is important to all the communities. If the housing happens in Berlin they're excited and they're excited if it happens in their own communities as well. It's also for us we see it as an economic and community development opportunity for the region. We've got some core centers in Montpelier in Northfield in Berry. For Berlin we've got some development there but if we could increase its density basically by increasing the density your your value of development goes up and it means that more people will come to those areas more people will shop will live hopefully contribute to the economy locally. It means jobs for people the hospital is there I'll link it back to housing you guys know that the hospital is having difficulty as our other employers in it's not just it's a workforce issue I guess is what I'll say that people need places to live when you try and hire someone whether they're coming from out of town out of region or just need to change their home they're having a hard time finding it and the more we can do to bring homes to central Vermont the more our economy will move forward rather than stay stagnant and I say stagnant because for every job we gain we seem to lose one and bringing development together where companies can feed off of each other they can work together they can recruit employees together having them in one place having the housing next to it the medical facilities the shopping that tends to make employers excited because they can attract employees better so I I would just like to encourage you all to continue working together on this it's important regionally as well as it's important locally and I will stop there because I know many other people would like to speak so thank you for the opportunity thank you Bonnie Eileen did you want to say a few words I would love to so I'm Eileen he I'm the director of projects and properties at the central Vermont medical center and we've been actively working on the new town center project with the town of Berlin since June of 2020 and we're really excited about the redevelopment of the area and the creation of a place where people can live work and recreate I think the new town center plan really shows a possibility for all in a concentrated area and you may or may not know that our hospital a period of time was in the new town center just a designated area and it no longer is but we remain committed to the project and the success of it because we really feel that it's going to benefit the community as a whole our staff and patients the town of Berlin and our organization so yes as Bonnie just said one of the key elements of this is housing and affordable housing is really key for us to be able to fulfill our mission to provide health care to the community of central Vermont so the lack of local housing for us is a recruitment constraint and it's an issue from the physician level all the way to the service level but we feel it most acutely at the service level we have an environmental services department that we've been unable to fully staff for four years and this is true meant all of our service level departments are under staff and while it's a workforce issue it's also a housing issue um you might have seen Phil Scott and Bernie Sanders on the state house steps earlier this week talking about the dire nursing shortage in central in the state of Vermont and that's one of our other recruiting challenges over the past few years we've been expanding our educational opportunities and license your programs in partnership with local colleges but without affordable housing we're going to have a difficult time retaining those people so um you know I can share a couple of just brief stories from the past couple of weeks that I encountered one was we hired a uh non-healthcare emerging professional to the hospital and she is electing to live in Williston and commute to central Vermont because she could not find housing locally that suited her needs she moved from out of state a lot of the housing that we have in central Vermont isn't necessarily what you'd find typically in other urban and suburban areas so she was she was looking for something well lit a multi-unit place and she couldn't find it a place where she felt truly safe so I can only imagine that in six months or a year she's going to find a job in Chittenden County and she's going to relocate you know she's going to remain there and work there we had a nurse who we were onboarding and the local the company that was assisting with recruitment could only find her a place over a garage and she didn't feel like that was suitable housing so well those examples are about a specific type of housing I think we all know that there's a real need for housing in central Vermont so in closing I'll just say that um you know we're striving to meet the health care needs of central Vermont and we're in strong support of the Burlington Center designation and the positive impacts it can have for for the future vibrancy of the community. Thank you. I just have a little bit more that I'm going to finish up with and then I think we we do public comment. We'll do a public discussion with the board and then we'll open it up to public comment. Okay so I just want to I just want to give you a sense of how we got here what we did to get to this point um so Berlin had to completely rewrite its zoning bylaws and anticipation of the new town center um and during that that process lasted several years and and included a total of 65 meetings um Berlin had to revise its town plan to specifically state the intention to seek a new town center designation that process involved 53 meetings the new town center application development process was I guess it wasn't a whole year it was close to a year um we had that involved um 48 planning commission meetings and 16 select board here at meetings and in each case not only did we have these numerous public hearings public meetings where we took input but we but these meetings had to be uh there was specific public hearings dedicated dedicated to each of those topics and they had to be approved by the select board and the town had to vote on each of those uh items so there was significant public participation secondly um Berlin invested a significant amount in infrastructure all of which had to be bonded and voted on by the voters so I think the public support has been shown throughout for the for the for this project and um in in turn for this development that that end is a site um and and I also want to talk a little bit about the momentum that we currently have because there's a lot going on um Chestnut Place is near completion it's planned to open in April of 2022 Foxtron is currently in the the housing project is currently in the process of seeking permits uh there's a Starbucks that is um currently in the process of seeking permits and it's it's important to note that both Foxtron and Starbucks are at the Route 62 end of the project and they have they have designed those plans to fit the concept plan and I think that's important because when you have to understand that that is just a concept plan but the mall is a committed partner and they have they made sure that those projects met the requirements of the town center designation so that we would not jeopardize that and they so they've they've been a great partner um Brons has secured funding for a number of projects $500,000 to realign and upgrade Route 62 um oh Tom I didn't put the numbers in on the stormwater 160,000 160,000 for stormwater um so the so that the we can look at the combined stormwater needs for the entire project which includes the mall the car dealers and the hospital so that's all being looked at in conjunction um there's a multi-use of $40,000 to look at the multi-use path on the perimeter of the site 80,000 is 80 for the road Fisher Road $100,000 to look at a road diet for Fisher Road um to make that a more pedestrian friendly um road so that it creates that that town center feel and and even though the the hospital may not come back into the town center it would allow those connections across the road to the hospital um and and and one of the important things for this this actual site is Berlin has applied for um an MVP fitness court which is uh MVP is looking to put fitness courts in I think 20 towns around the state and we were I think one of the first ones to put in an application and we believe we secured matching funding for that and and we would intend to we would hope to put it on this site um as a for the town before the residents of Berlin or or or others to use and Green Mountain Community Fitness is wants to partner with us to program um and and help with the use of that facility um and they've suggested expanding and putting in pickleball courts um and things of that nature for the town to use so so going back to the to the gift you know I know that there's there was talk at the meeting of you know of restricting it you know if you want to restrict it for municipal purposes I don't think we have an issue with that the auction agreement that was put up that was created earlier um and we fully intend to use that for recreational and municipal purposes so um I think that's pretty much all I had to say I I did want to just I'm not sure what Vera's input was but if I know that Vera raised the issue at the last meeting of comments and you said she gave input to you and I'm I don't know if that's something that you're going to share first I want to just clarify a couple a couple of things and I'm looking at Vince but I can't find it I had it right on my but I it is it's a little different that what I was at least what we had agreed in hoping for today's today's meeting right today's meeting to me is not about convincing the board or it's not because we've been trying to pull you up you know we we want to make sure that there is community support for this so this was an opportunity for both of us to put I thought Tom was going to present the the the plans again today so that community members from Berlin had a chance to to give us both the select board and the school board their input so before jumping into talking back and forth with the board we want to hear from the community in in Berlin that's what's the most important to us well I think what I was trying to tell you is that we have been listening to the town of Berlin for five years and I'm happy to have anybody on this this this meeting speak I would love to hear from Berlin but I guess what I'm trying to say is that is that this process has been ongoing that was the point of me discussing it so I hear what you're saying but I but I think that you need to understand that this didn't just happen and it's receiving input throughout yeah that we are not questioning your process we we want to you know we we want to do what it's best for the town of Berlin and for the school for the district of Washington Central right for for the kids we want to do what is responsible thing to do so this is an opportunity so if we you know let's let's keep going so I'll wait to when we are in board discussion at the end of the meeting as we had said I can share their various input okay thank you so I think I think really what we just want to ensure is that that the school board understands what what kind of efforts the town's put into it where the town's at I think there's probably some either breakdown and not communication but we just want to make sure we're both on the same page and understanding what each other each party needs to make an informed decision as you said and move forward so you're right it is about the public comment it is about getting this information out there as far as sharing the you know the town plans things like that that you you were assuming Tom was going to share we can share those we've shared them a bunch there it looks like there's a few Berlin residents that that I see on here and and I'm not sure we'll have a quick board discussion about this and then we'll open it up to public comment but if we want to go through and share I mean how long is the presentation for the concept that you had like you can just like just bring it up and we'll go right through it I mean I I don't know if today the Berlin residents that are on there now have any specific questions in reference to the concept of the town center have you seen it have you participated in any of the meetings any of that hey any Maryland resident can feel free to speak up I have a question here go ahead um nuts and bolts um what is the size of the gift parcel it depends on depends on how we looked at it we had we had expressed two different options um and one was what three and a half acres and one was seven I believe was was the number seven yeah seven point four acres was included uh some wetlands the the excluded wetlands it's three point eight acres three point eight and seven point four Peter which is either what either one is a we're amenable to either one the three point eight is fine right go ahead Peter what would be the the impact on the elementary school it would in there I mean I'm not going to say there wouldn't be any because I can't speak from the elementary school's perspective so we'll probably let them speak to that briefly from from I think the Berlin town perspective it would be only property on the mall side of the wetlands I think the the positive impacts would be the things like the potential pickle ball court the MVP fit that all of the outdoor recreation that we would be putting in there along with a potential partnership to maybe make those like more eco-friendly paths down there from I don't see a negative impact but I can't from the town's perspective to the school I see and I see a lot of positive honestly and as I went there I was an elementary school student there I would hear my whole life my dad you know Peter my dad was on this board I see it as tremendous potential for both the Berlin school community as well as the Berlin residents but I don't know if maybe Floor can speak to what they see as the potential impact to the school on that or somebody from the Berlin's or from the supervisory union that would be great thank you can I respond to that Justin I just yeah absolutely I want to be very clear I'm not I am in support of the town plan concept I think a lot of work has been done over a long period of time and I haven't been involved with the school board for a while but when I was last we authorized a tentative proposal of a small portion in order to make a housing project happen so I recognize that that there has to be there given take to make the overall project feasible I do want to make sure that that the school is not negatively impacted and I'd also like to point out that the property that we're talking about is property that was a gift to the school for school purposes at the outset and so it's important to me from a history standpoint that we all recognize that whatever land that now belongs to the school whether it's the town and the school or the unified school district it was a gift from Clarence Pike to the school for school purposes so we should all be careful of how we treat it thank you for that point Peter I appreciate that this I guess to answer the Maryland residents question when somebody from the school board like to speak on how they could see that would potentially impact the school I think our main interest is exactly what Peter was saying right now is that the you know that we listen to the to the residents what we can see is that if we had to expand for example it's the only place where we could have parking but we're today here not you know it's not necessarily prepared to talk about all of that I hope was that we would hear exactly this so that we could really assess what we heard from all of the Burlington residents in that that is our our hope any board member you know or Jen or Erin if you guys want to jump in but I think that's that's what I had informed my board on you know we want to hear how residents feel about this piece of property and and how it impacts the town the town centers okay go ahead Tom Tom would like to say I think a positive impact you know we spoke about this before floor is we're estimating when we build the residential community out this neighborhood there's a likelihood of 40 to 80 students that would attend Berlin elementary school and and in today's environment that's just a huge win for for the school so I think it's a win-win for both the town and and the school there's uh any other Berlin residents that are on this meeting would they care to share their comments I noticed I think I saw Bob Warnick on there he might he might have something to say I apologize for that I always have something to say I've been chairman of the development review board now for 20 years this this this project is intriguing I do think a transfer this land is necessary to achieve the objectives of a town center without being able to realign the road without being able to accomplish a a reasonable type of entrance to this town center project I think we'll lose it so I have no stake in it per se that's just my observation is having reviewed many applications in this town over the last 20 years and I think this is very necessary thank you Bob any other Berlin residents on there that would like to share clothes Lauren Smith would like to share comment as a member of the board but also as a town resident I've lived in the town for just over 27 years both of my daughters attended Berlin elementary and I know many Berlin residents that are huge proponent of the school and the town and are supportive of this process I think it will be a huge benefit to all residents but also to the students and the recreation aspect along with our town center it's just a very integral process and I like what you said Peter I think we do need to pay close attention but I think this would be in keeping with what's good for the whole community as a whole thank you hi um I'll show my face for a second here um here I'm uh Tony snow I am a Berlin resident I'm also an educator uh in the town of Bethel um and I also uniquely a part of the planning commission but I also have a background in transportation planning I used to do a transportation plan for the state of California and review safe across the schools um I know that in the very least the ability to redesign the road is incredibly important for safety thinking of the number potential future students living in this community it's incredibly important to make sure that we have a safe environment for these future students to be able to get to the school and to be able to have a safe environment but in the living and realigning this road is going to be a part of that I have previously examined many applications for safe routes to schools for this exact thing um and typically um it's it's something that um when I would get those applications it's it's because it's too late and people have already been injured by not having safe roads um sorry I think it's really important that this community has taken this step ahead of time to ensure this is a safe community for all these future residents also as an educator uh in Bethel we have an incredibly close relationship as a school with the town of Bethel and we um as a school view the town as being the expanded learning and the expanded classroom for our school and I think this is a really wonderful opportunity for the students in Berlin elementary school or any other students who are visiting the campus to be able to have easy access and have a community that are able to easily explore and expand their learning environment so as a Berlin resident I'm fully in in support and in favor of this blanket um are there any other Berlin residents that that haven't spoken that are on on tonight that that maybe aren't familiar with this you know I know Floor you you mentioned that you want to he thought Tom was going to go through this presentation he was going to share with the community this concept we've done this honestly a multitude of times and I feel like we can do it again if the school board doesn't completely understand this concept but it sounded like the school board did as well be we'll be happy to share it again that way but but I I think that every Berlin resident that's in attendance here tonight has seen this concept time and time again um and maybe maybe little things have tweaked over the 20 30 plus years that this town center's been been being planned obviously um and so that's just just part of the way a project evolves but is there any Berlin resident on here um since we're holding this hearing for Berlin residents in their best interest that has not seen or understand the drawings or the concepts of this Berlin town center so that we can share it with you and help you better understand it so I I'm both a board member and also you know a resident um I guess my my concern or my question and again I've lived here since um you know 91 and so we have been part of those town meetings and those great discussions and we absolutely support that need for a town center I absolutely support affordable housing absolutely support the need for diverse housing and the ability for people to um access services and to walk to places my question continues to be and um that while yes we've had these different concepts out there that I'm just you know I I just don't know when this exact plan which also might end up tweaked and I get that but when this exact plan was rolled out to residents that's all my question is because um it's it's easy to use different language and we all have different pictures and so again repeatedly not to be contentious or to be argumentative no not at all this exact plan I don't know that it's been out there and I know that COVID is a big impact of that so it's just wondering how do we get the spread out there for all I just yeah I just want to speak to that real quick and and Tom or Carla they'll I'll let them answer it what I do know um as well as that when we did our town center application right um and everybody that was involved in that town center this was part of the concept everybody that was involved in the town center planning and with that application including the supervisory union signed off saying they supported it and so it's been been in effect uh since the beginning of this town center designation application and at that time that included the school board support for that road and that being set up the way it is um so it's been a significant amount of time and it's been shared a bunch but I'll let Tom add to that if you would like I you know I don't know David Delcourt is on this call but he's from the Times Argus there's been numerous uh the articles in the Times Argus the many of these pictures that you see now were in the Times Argus but really the first time that the a drawing concept that the planning commission saw was in June of 2020 we shared that I shared it with the former superintendent of schools in August of 2020 because it included this this school parcel and uh and we were we were asking for the starting to ask for the gift then so it's it's been out in the public realm for close to two years now and and I'll go back to saying the fact that we knew that this may be a potential issue with the Act 46 merger where the land got assigned out I mean the land as I think Peter Schober mentioned was gifted to the community um for the school purposes it was a municipal property as part of Act 46 we we were we were forced to or whatever got assigned to the supervisory union we knew at that point in time that this potential issue was coming about we we as the town still I think had done done a fair amount of investment with stormwater runoff with that property I think that the town has contributed tremendously I mean I don't I don't think the school itself paid a bill for the stormwater runoff project that we did over there and the town town helped with that I think we as the town have shown and participated a bunch throughout time that that we're willing we're willing partners we want to do what's best for the Berlin community the Berlin schools the you know everybody in the supervisory union and and this would just continue along with with the precedents that we've already set as being you know uh partners in the community now I know I know that that doesn't say that there's not unanswered questions or that this concept changed a little bit over time or Diane you were wondering when exactly it came out it was 2020 um that that this plan got approved I think that it's it's important to understand that that that it's a vital piece of it um and that it does have a tremendous amount of community support not everybody loves the concept not everybody's perfectly happy with it probably I'm assuming I don't know um but but it is a vital piece and it the intention of the land is to to better serve the community in the town um any other public con does that address your concern Diane does that address your question do you have any follow-up as a result of that okay so when when I was going to Corinne just put a comment on the and and I think I I agree with that that maybe because this is being recorded it would be nice for for people to to see what the to show the school and show the road okay yeah I can't see it and then take out the the the presentation so that we can see each other after that so it's important to have so can you go to the the road this is the existing road you can I could see my cursor okay can people on the audience see my cursor okay so that's the existing road as the entrance off of 62 uh the the town of Berlin has received a $500,000 grant to realign the road like this making a traffic calming out of this road there'll be sidewalks throughout this whole area there is a we are in a process of developing a multi-use path which is this purple line here and so that's that's what the realign road would look like it'd become a tea intersection in an effort to slow traffic there'll be parking on the road in front of these housing buildings here and wall barn is just off the stream right here the school is uh you're going to be able to see this the school is up across these wetlands up here so is any of none of this this this even the seven point what was it seven point four acres if that's all is that all on the town center side of the wetlands or the stream that runs I think I have that Justin here this may be maybe the visualization that you were you're more looking for Tom yeah go ahead so so the school is here the the existing road is as I showed there the the road alignment would come out like this and then down like this the town has a a desire to consider building a municipal facility here with recreational courts and likely some uh second or third floor housing so but that's this is what the project looks like today the the fox run folks there are it's a 40 unit housing complex 30 unit housing complex being permitted right here there's a restaurant being permitted here when the gift would occur it would create another lot here which we see about 50 units of housing being on on that section as well I can't stress how important the this gift of land is it's it's all likelihood if if this gift doesn't happen the town center project would likely dissolve and none of this would cover the fruition so this we are at a critical junction um we do uh we I know there's folks on the call from fox run the the workforce housing projects that's being developed if you'd like to hear from them about the critical need I think they'd be more than welcome to talk but but I don't want to take your agenda tonight um I think one of the things that that maybe maybe Carla could speak to a little bit better that I wanted to mention was that part of this application as well for the town center includes municipal structures buildings offices over there so so we need to do something with the property and and while we may have the option to lease a space or or something from a potential developer over there I don't I don't know that the town really wants to become a tenant I don't think that I would much prefer to own property and I think the town would too and they'd do a building but I don't know if there's anything more you'd want to add to that or no well I will just add because I know there was a conversation at the last meeting about the potential of leasing or being in the mall and that is no longer an option so um I do think that our first and you know most most preferable option would be to have a building on that site and to create so that we can create um this gateway this sort of unique aspect some kind of a unique building on the corner that says here you know you've arrived in Berlin um or in Berlin town center so so it is it is an important piece of the the gateway which I referred to earlier but it is specifically the municipal the municipal building that I was speaking of and this sort of announcement that you've arrived so I think one of the comments John Jonathan Goddard just put up there that there would be a continuous amount of traffic going through there is that that right is that a concern of yours oh sure yeah I mean just looking at the the alignment that was presented or the realignment you know where where does that traffic come out it comes out in the mall in front of um Walmart so it actually doesn't come out in front of Walmart the way the road continues through around Walmart that there's part of an internal restructure there but part of that road if you think about it there I think you have a great point because that road that goes through there now you visualize very differently uh people tend to rip through there they fly through there they're not always perfectly safe and and the design with this road part of the reason why we need that is for public safety so by having that road set up the way it is right now people tend to go faster they'll go through there I could see if you had housing there and people crossing it wouldn't be necessarily pedestrian friendly it could be relatively dangerous by adding this concept with this 90 degree turn which the state wants that will slow traffic down make it much more pedestrian friendly walk friendly uh it it'll actually accomplish and eliminate the issues there there may be a high volume of traffic but it'll actually make it a walkable sidewalks it'll make it so that you can get across the intersection slowing traffic down the whole purpose of this restructuring is that help eliminate make it safer than it already is for that matter go ahead Thompson I'd like to just share another uh uh screen here that I think may talk speak to Jonathan's concerns like find it yeah it's a pretty small but uh so Jonathan we're talking about this road to get to probably still see my cursor uh it comes in and and so the road will will be built on the back end of the Berlin mall parking lot and there's additional development down in this section and this road will then come out to Fisher Road this way so this would become a once developed a town street and these there are these structures here and here are redesigned to really slow traffic down in the mall itself and keep traffic on the back end of that parking lot out the Fisher Road so um I have a quick question if you don't mind Tom so so on that on that rear road you're talking about is that going to be one way only and you're not going to be when you're at number three on your little map they're coming into the mall uh on on the I guess it would be the west side it's two-way traffic okay so it's not one way correct okay is the explain that in front of the mall that road goes away yeah this the current the current road as Brad mentioned comes here out in front of the front of the the mall uh it that that road is not safe for people who want to get into the into shop in here so the mall management really is embracing this on the rear side of the parking lot that's how development redevelopment of malls are occurring now so it allows for much safer foot traffic for customers coming in and out of the the shopping at the mall I think I think what's important on the lot of thought has been put into this concept and it is around making the whole point of this town center is it needs to be pedestrian friendly and safe so even with the state looking at the concept of these additional housing developments the the potential for these businesses any additional influx or flow of traffic the way that the way the road design has been done was to actually increase safety and make it more pedestrian and and like like path friendly so so I just had another can I have can I just have another quick question here just very quickly so if I'm if I'm if I'm clear as to what you're saying it's going to be fully pedestrian in front of directly in front of the ball where the parking lot is there's going to be no cars driving along the front of the building anymore is that what you're saying that's no Jonathan I that that would be a misrepresentation right but they I think you'll see the dramatically the the traffic through that will will be will be less again that's it's a functionality of the of the what's in the mall and in their space but it will it will not completely eliminate any traffic at least not in their future yeah hopefully eventually yeah it will become any other any other questions john anybody else any other concerns floor did that did that do you think that that met the the sharing criteria that you were looking for sorry I was muted yes yeah I wanted to hear from more burglane residents too there's more residents on there though well I'm Andrea Chandler can you hear me yes thank you yeah I'm in support of this I've been watching it in the newspaper and going to some meetings and I was on the conservation commission in Berlin for many years and I like the consolidation of services and it's on a bus line it's going to have it's going to be so much easier for burlin residents to access so many different things and the housing point is from both the regional planners and the hospital you know that's again a very important asset for the the whole center from my area so I'm fully in support the whole project thank you for your work thank you thank you all any other burlane residents want to speak we got I don't I don't want to individually call people out I was going to start calling people out but I guess I won't I called you I was going to call you already my name's randy herring I've been a lifetime resident of burlin and this concept has been around for a long time and to see it to come to fruition would be an amazing event for burlin not only just for the town center but for all the residents because maybe then we could have our own post office yeah but that's that's one thing that we've always needed and we still need so I appreciate all the work that's been gone into this and I really hope that it goes forward thank you randy any other burlin thank you any other burlin I did not plant him in the audience I think it's okay if I was to talk on behalf of Fox Run sure sure go ahead so hi I'm Nicola Anderson I'm the director of real estate development for down street housing and community development no I um I just wanted to join today to reiterate and to state how important this truly is for our housing project and for the new town center you know if this can occur there's an opportunity to create a safe walkway for kids to get to school so that they do not so there's no risk of them walking along that highway that is key and also another part of this going to make this so much more pedestrian friendly even though the new town center everything about this is going to make it so much more pedestrian friendly and it is also just to state um our housing project truly will only happen if we do get new town center designation that is one of the conditions of our funding one of the conditions of the funding is also we will not receive that five hundred thousand for the road without the new town center designation um so this is truly really important for all of the pieces of the puzzle to come together I think that um we're so excited to bring this housing project to Berlin the opportunity that that's going to create and all the other projects that are going to follow this it's really going to make Berlin thrive but it's so valuable and so important and I know how much Berlin needs this at down street has been working on this project since 2019 and we are if we can make this happen we are going to break ground on this project this summer and we will be able to start housing people next summer um so again like this is truly really important I only see positives out of this land swap happening um and I just am really excited for the opportunity for Berlin thank you thank you and I think it's important also to remember that uh you're not only it's not only the benefits of the town of Berlin but there's also the benefits of the surrounding communities through better services and uh access to services good point Brad thank you and I also wanted to add in terms of the safety element that Nikola spoke to just a few minutes ago and others have indicated is the fact that there will be better lighting in the town that's part of the town center and with better lighting you have additional safety and I think we all can wrap our heads around the need for additional safety it goes goes without a doubt thank you yeah streetlights are required on that street we've seen a plan where there will be 50 feet so definitely a good way I think that will be extremely beneficial overall do do we have any additional public comment yeah I'd like to speak quickly um as fairly new to town uh I am on the select board but I have children in the Berlin school as well um I started out as a skeptic of the the project knowing how big it was and knowing kind of the timeline and how overall government projects work and how long they can potentially take so you know I looked at this from a lot of different angles and I truly don't believe that it hurts the Berlin elementary school or the conditions of the land and what the children have now or even or even in the future as far as recreational opportunities given where the land is and you know when you look at potentially giving that up in what we can receive from a community standpoint I think not only will it help the town from a from a downtown perspective but it'll make a stronger community which makes a stronger school and a better school thank you John thank you I'd actually like to make a comment as a resident as well um and from my perspective it might be a little bit different I went to elementary school there both my children went to elementary school there I was on the school board for a short time there as well I have a huge sense of pride in the community I think that the the if if this were to if this land gift did not occur it would be very unfortunate for the residents and of the town of Berlin as well as the school I think that that it would potentially cost the taxpayers a tremendous amount of money as Brad said it would maybe reduce the potential for services that we needed it would potentially just be it would be devastating all the hard work and infrastructure that we put into it and the community involvement and backing that would I would hate to feel as though a board from this is just me as a resident a board of directors from outside communities would have the ability to impact our town so tremendously um so I I hope as a resident that when when you guys make your decision you look at it and truly what's best for the Berlin community and and and the school and I don't think that if you look at it from that perspective with any bias put aside I really don't feel as though you will see any downfall or negative impact to either one of them and if they are the pros will certainly outweigh the cons tremendously so that's that's what I have to say as a resident any other Berlin residents any other public comment as far as this is concerned right so we'll close the public hearing and we'll we'll have a discussion as boards so I guess to hear hear from the school board you have intentions to take this up on your January 19th agenda is that correct yes and and I have some clarification you just want to get some clarity for from from you guys what is the actual date that you need approval for this what is the if you were just mentioning there'll be a immense impact economical impact on on you guys so yeah so and and then after those couple of questions open it up to board members to ask questions to from both sides to to to ask why should I know some of my board members already have their hands their hands up there hasn't been clarity for us on the on the timeline and exactly what the ask is and looking at the documents today and how would they represent for Tom before what we thought it was the option of the 3.8 acres or the 7.4 it was clear from looking at it that what you guys are looking for is the 7.4 so we really need clarity of what your ask is in the deadline and then we'll discuss it so if I'm going to open it up to some of our board members to start if that's okay with you hold on you want us to address some of those concerns before we move on to those so that we can go handle that first it makes more sense before you open it up so we'll just kind of go through this one at a time maybe so that we answer any additional questions as we go one of your other questions was also that maybe the financial impact was that that the third thing so I have financial impact deadline and what the actual ask is are those the three things you're looking for right now floor yes okay so as far as the deadline so the immediate deadline has to do with the Fox Run housing and I believe it's February 1st they will lose that lose the funding if they don't if they're if the wind isn't available and so as of that February 1st deadline I there's probably more to it that I'm not aware of but I can tell you that they've been given a $500,000 grant to rebuild or build the road into that area and we need to have that commitment done as well by then so essentially if if we don't move forward with this I can tell you that it's going to cost I mean it's a $500,000 grant to redo that road and that road as we develop this project part of the town center designation is that that road needs to be up to needs to be a town road so it'll have to be brought up to town specs one way or another so so we'll lose that $500,000 worth of grant money to help do that with that that road and then as far as the ask or is there any additional funding or financing or I mean we look at it there we're creating another developer lot essentially by having it that way it looks like because we're going to be doing a 90 degree turn on the road we're going to increase our our we'll increase our taxes I mean we'll have another of another property that the residents can tax that'll create income and perpetuity to the town I mean so so the figures there depends on what gets developed there but if it was a $40,000 a year tax fell times whenever multiplied for however many years I mean you can't I don't know we can put a number on that but it's tremendous so so the financial the financial impact to the town based on based on that could be huge um any other financial we estimated the complete build out would add about 125 million dollars to the Berlin grand list uh and and though the the school would obviously gets tax dollars from the town they won't get all of it because it goes into the state pool but we we have been this project would be increasing the state pool so I think again I think it's a it's a it's a win-win and the the the actual property floor the from a from an ease of doing a subdivision the stream makes the best sense right so that's seven point breakers I know there was conversation at the school board meeting I attended about four months ago you know can we can the school retain the wetlands piece of it the answer of that is yes so it really from me from from from about an ease of knowing where the property line is to me the stream makes sense but again if the school wanted to retain the wetlands piece of that we could we could figure out where that line is as well so so so when you're asking for a specific way are you saying that your ability to make a decision as a board we need to say we either want 3.8 acres or 7.4 we can't say that this is what we really essentially need but we would like any of that I just want to be clear so that we don't have a hang out um it's anywhere what is what is what is your clarification needed for the specific ask does that clarify what you're looking for that clarify am I looking at other board members yes that's clarified it was not clear okay we had that conversation and I'm going to open it up with board members and I'm sure there will be more yeah well go ahead and call on your board members and allow them to ask questions and move over there okay thank you thank you Jonas hi my name is Jonas I'm a board member from Worcester and I just want to you know acknowledge that there's kind of a palpable frustration from you guys about the way that's going and the time this is taking and the process that we're trying to go through and I totally appreciate that I've followed this project for years a close work colleague of mine was on your planning commission for a while before he and his family needed to leave town um and I think it's unfortunate that we're you know we don't want to be in this position of the keystone for this this is not our business right this is our business we we don't want to have a veto over your project at all and you know you don't need to convince us of the wisdom of the project the only piece that worked that I'll speak for myself the only piece that I'm concerned with and it's clear that the town of Berlin supports the project right you've invested a ton of time and a ton of money there have been a number of votes over the years about making this happen it is this one specific piece of the plan the transfer of land from the school district to the town that is the only thing that I am concerned with and I was per I was prepared to vote and support this until one of our valued board members from Berlin let us know that there was a significant amount of sentiment in Berlin that didn't feel great about this and we heard a little bit about that tonight right we want I want to do right by Berlin that is the only thing I want to do is do right by Berlin I am agnostic about your plans I am agnostic about the wisdom of this I am happy to hear from the hospital and the housing folks about how great this is going to be I and I buy that 100% the only thing I'm concerned about is the transfer of the land from the school to the town and as far as I'm concerned that's just a transfer from one municipality to another and I would trust the town of Berlin to be good stewards of the land right and there are some things that I think that we want to make sure happen you know the the you know the state of the wetlands the security of the school property you know if that land gets sold in the future I think the district would like the option of having it back right if the project for some reason falls apart or you know if the land gets sold and those are things things I think are totally reasonable I have not heard a groundswell of opposition to this land transfer from the town of Berlin tonight so I will support this but I I hope you guys know that you know the reason this has gone on is not because we are skeptical about the or I'll speak for myself the reason this has gone on so is not because I am skeptical about the plan it's because I wanted to make sure that I was not going to vote to make a decision that the people of Berlin were going to resent us for that is all so I'm everything I've heard tonight just confirms what I wanted to see and what I wanted to hear I thank you guys for your time and I'm happy happy to be working with you making this happen moving forward thank you thank you I appreciate that your explanation thank you mckaylin um I don't know this might be a little redundant after Jonas's comments but I mean I'm new to the board as of this summer the first I heard of this project was in September at the board meeting and subsequently at this meeting I guess I just wanted some clarification as to whether September was really the first time it was brought to the board or was it earlier in the process lindy's shaking her head so earlier in the process because I just it just feels uncomfortable as a board like it seems like your fate is in our hands and that feels uncomfortable for future planning you know if if the land is so important maybe we secure again earlier in the process would make it less uncomfortable um but but I second Jonas that you know I haven't heard anything tonight that makes me overly concerned about about the land exchange thank you thank you any other questions from our board members I see your hand up I was just going to let them go through with their board members briefly if that's okay um just because it was their moment to talk and then we'll go we'll get to you Bob if they can wait hey floor yeah Chris and Scott yeah okay I'm going to defer to Scott first could be a gentleman Chris thank you um I just like to follow up what um what Jonas said very well and you too mckaylin um from my perspective as the school district board our our interest in this is really goes no further than ensuring the safe and effective operation of our schools um and maybe you know to ensure that there are no weird legal angles that we've missed and that might come back to bite us um in the future uh otherwise as Peter Schober sort of intimated if this were happening three years ago um this discussion actually wouldn't be happening because it would be a completely Berlin affair between the Berlin school board and the Berlin select board and I as Jonas said I think we trust you to to know what your community needs and we at least if I may speak for myself on this um it's kind of your land that just through an accident of timing and administrative restructuring we find ourselves you know the the stewards of at present but um I mean I think we just need to focus on our particular part which is what is best for the school and leave the rest leave the town planning to to you to those who are expert in that thank you thank you Scott Chris yeah thanks I'm so I'm gonna push back on Scott a little because it's not Berlin land it's school land and we um are in this position because of the murder which most of us did not want um so you know Scott's right that if it was a couple years ago it would just be a Berlin affair not not involve us but it does now so you know we were the stewards to conserve school district assets just as you are the stewards to advance Berlin's interests with that being said I I don't like that we're gifting because we're not really gifting we're in a position where it's somewhat I don't say coerced but there's a lot of pressure that this has to happen in order for the town um project to go forward so um that's not actually a gift in my view but I but I think we're heading toward a transfer and I would support the 3.8 acre transfer but with a provision that if it isn't used for municipal purposes it comes back to the school district because then that's our stewardship and if it can come back to the school district then there's some type of fair market value negotiation that happens but my preference would be the reversion um however it has been developed so um I would certainly support a 3.8 acre uh transfer of this ownership um and uh wish Berlin the very best because I think this project will have a a rippling effect uh throughout the central mont area thank you thank you thank you a couple things earlier in the meeting you mentioned having some form of approval from the previous berlin school board and I was curious I am new to the board again um like mckayland since august and I was curious if anybody either on our board um knows a history of that or or anybody else has a history on that well you guys want to speak to that as far as the history with me the attorney I'm not sure if you're referring to what I said earlier about the previous meeting or the previous discussions with the superintendent or the previous or if there was something mentioned about the before the supervisor union took ownership I'm not sure if you're referring to something I said or something that just said yeah actually so what was your what was your question can you clear were you talking about prior to the administration change with the supervisory union that the attorneys uh had said that this transfer could occur I think that's okay then I may have misunderstood it sounded like you said that you would had discussions with before the merger the school board so before before the merger when I was first on the select board actually the the law firm that represented the supervisory union as well as the town attorney worked out the same law firm and I I saw this and talked with other members and it went to the berlin school board prior because that as you may be aware part of the land that got transferred over to the supervisory union also houses our fire department which I can't imagine you guys want to be the landlords for our fire department on your property either but my my my question and concern was knowing down the road that that's something like this would occur the they that we had discussed doing some boundary line adjustments before this transfer so this conversation wouldn't have even occurred but because of the tremendous pressures and timelines due to the statutes that went into effect that essentially forced forced the consolidation of merger uh there wasn't any time to react to that so it really didn't make it that far but but but the the general feeling from people that understood the development in the process that this project was going to to take um understood that this could be a potential uh frustration let's say or or hurdle or just something we all had to overcome because now now we have obviously maybe some interested but semi uninterested parties outside of the town looking at it from a different perspective than maybe just the town's perspective so we just kind of thought that that yeah it'd been a topic of conversation but hadn't that's as far as it made it thank you for the verification thank you and i was wondering if we can hear from erin the principal from berlin i know i've asked this before but the trail usage um there are trails i mean i'm a former resident of berlin and my child went to that school for a very brief time and we used those walking trails how much of an impact would it be if you lost those trails and then how much of a security impact do you see so i just i want to interrupt and clarify real quick i don't think there's not going to be any loss of usage on those trails if anything those trails would be enhanced so so the the usage that land can never be developed by anybody and it's it's all purely outdoor recreation i think one of the differences is if it's held by by if that we might get grant money we might get people that'll invest more and work with the school or work with the town to enhance the ability the walkability the safety whatever the conservation of those trails um so those trails aren't going to go away so i mean maybe erin has something different to say but from the town's perspective the only thing that we see is is better trails uh more more of a buffer zone maybe i don't know but it definitely not those trails going away because they're such a vital thing that they've been in this community so long and people look forward to using them and that's all part of what this downtown center is trying to do is accomplish a harmonious balance between those two so i just want to throw that out there sorry for interrupting Mr. Slyke i can go ahead um everyone i'm erin boyton the principal at Berlin elementary um so i've been there for four years and it's an amazing school i hope you're hearing great things um just a wonderful place for kids wonderful community families uh staff um so when i when i first heard about this of course as the principal and my first thought was okay how might this impact any levels of safety because that's obviously a first priority um and uh you know kind of through this process hearing that um there wouldn't be any concerns around you know wandering people and onto the property you know things like that um part of the property does have some fencing along the back helps kind of just kind of keep keep some border to the to the property um my first thought was okay i wonder what this would really kind of look like would it be recreational trails where people would be coming in and out of the property quite frequently um and i was assured that that wasn't necessarily going to be the case so i felt you know personally uh as the principal a little bit better about about the project um and yeah i mean i absolutely and i guess on behalf of the school agree that uh has our board has said that this absolutely would enhance um not only the community but the opportunities for kids perhaps a boost in enrollment um safe walking trails for students to come to and from their their their home to school so absolutely of course it would just be a really great plus to to the community and the school um the the wooded area gets highly used we do have outdoor education programs and if you were to go down there now you would see base camps set up you would see many different things that are happening down there there are outdoor opportunities for kids it's used every week at least once a week at least once a week so there is a high volume of use down there um so you know i i would i appreciate hearing that you know there could be potential enhancement to um the the area um in terms of partnership because it is a highly used area for us so that's good to hear as well um so those are kind of the two things that again just as the building principal had kind of run through my mind during this whole this whole process thanks thank you thank you lindy the trail discussion um made me think about barry town barry city's consolidation because i was working in that district at the time and barry town who was pretty much against it um they did get their land into the town's hands instead of in the schools because they were worried about consolidation it has not affected the school's usage for their outdoor education or their trails um it's it really i think is just paperwork that it's now town land versus school land and it's kind of a good example as we're talking about this if there's a fear involved it's i think our towns and our schools are so interconnected and continue to be whether we're consolidated or not consolidated they are our our focus and for a town like berlin to now have a town center seems like a really nice inviting thing for them to have and it would be the housing part i think is tremendous so i don't think the ownership of the land and the trails there's there will be a commitment towards safety and toward how it's used i think and that's what i saw in barry thank you lindy thank you thank you lindy i don't i don't see other poor members can stop i can share what vira sent me it you guys i'm just gonna i'm just gonna read it she had a question i'm not sure why the town of berlin spent grand funds towards a project that they couldn't commit to without the land swap i know for sure for years that i spent on the berlin school board there was a pushback for many years to not do a land swap and that was with the forever revolving board meaning we had many different community board members on the board at different times and there's many reasons why i feel the town of berlin schools and districts even if the district doesn't exist anymore shouldn't give it over or give the land to the town of berlin the biggest reason i don't want the land to end up in developers hands and develop it for profit so i'm just reading what she sent to you yeah so go on sorry i was just gonna see if there's any other board members that want to and then i i also wanted to make a little statement just because i want to make sure that so i think we i want to address what what if you're done with what vira's comments were i'd like to address those just just as if she had spoken out a little bit i think i think i think everybody in town can agree that that if if i i can't remember who said it best or first but i will say that if the land was going to be sold for profit i think it that would be a shame um and so i can understand that so so i think that that that's kind of a non-factor i don't think that anybody on this board would feel that way i don't think anybody in this revolving board as as time goes on would feel that way and we'd be perfectly comfortable with the idea that that if if something were to happen uh and it were not to be used for municipal purposes we would take it up with either you know uh some sort of monetary value or reversal back to the supervisory union that's that's absolutely the case i do know that depending on who you talk to on the school board over those years um i was on the school board with beer as well at one point time and and there are there are different perspectives obviously from from different community members um i will say that the the majority of the board that that the school when it was with the school board and just Berlin it was town it was already municipal property um and and so but the town never had any intentions of doing anything other than what was in the best interest of the school and that's that that's part of why left in their control so i think i think there is i hear what Vera said with everything and i think that the town and the community would agree with with that um and the fact that i think some of it was not completely uh understood from maybe participation in meetings and things i think that there was some clarity there along the way that may have gotten slightly confused but i think i think we're good now i appreciate that go ahead flora i'm done that's okay in any other board members okay i i think mainly what i want to say is that exactly what Jonas said before we you know we we want to support a town of Berlin our interest was to hear from the town residents we didn't want to make a decision in isolation of the town residents so this has been really informative to to to us with my other hat as that as a designer i think supporting a town downtown development it is really important is something that was lost when the interstate went in uh in in berlin and it's a it's a loss for the for the community and it's something that is coming back around our different towns and it's the enhances education in educational outcomes in my mind we we will now you know uh resume this conversation as as a board and also look at you know those different questions that were that were asked uh on should the district consider some conditions on the transfer and we'll get back and we'll get back to you in advance of the meeting on the on the 19th unless there's other questions and i know you have one of your board members from the design review board with the questions that i want to hold robert yeah go ahead go ahead bob yes i just wanted to say um uh regarding feedback from the town i have lived in the town for 50 some odd years uh both my children went to school at the elementary school uh i served the town as a selectman for four years planning commission member for seven years and drb chair for the last 20 years uh so people know who i am uh i have not heard one person say that they oppose this kind of transaction so i'm not the only source um and and who knows they may not trust me but um because of my little a little bit outspoken but but i i do believe that people would reach out to me if they thought this was a bad idea and they have not um and i said i've lived here for 55 years now um probably more than most people here this room um so uh i think i think i don't think this has any negative connotations to the town um i think it's a positive thing and i encourage the uh the board to uh consider this favorably thank you thank you thanks bob jonathan i see your hands up then i have a one more question before we adjourn but go ahead four was there anybody else i don't see anybody else no okay um so i'll just be very clear about how i feel about this project i completely support the project but completely opposed donating any of the school land for it thank you thank you thank you can i ask why jonathan uh well there's a number of reasons why but primarily i think it's important that there's a buffer between the school and any additional development i mean to be quite frank going in and out of let's let's just hope that the road as it is going into the berlin mall now does not remain in that condition with this new development they'll put down new pavement all that it's going to be a real line real line that's great um but no i just don't i don't think that that uh the housing aspect uh down street does amazing work the plan that i saw tonight without the school property would still allow that development to happen that i do that i do so that i that i do support it doesn't allow that to happen no unfortunate well let me just i'll just i'll just reiterate again i support the project 100 but completely oppose any of the school property going towards the project at all thank you excellent that's fine it doesn't it's fine it is what it is the opinions i don't i just i don't i don't think that that's an accurate and accurate that the project can't exist without it so it is what it is i'm just trying to make clear that it in one needs the other yeah no wonder right um that makes sense is there do you want to say something else i'm sorry i was just getting a little no you're good um i think what what carla and justin are trying to say don't listen is is that without this gift of land likely the the burlington center fails that there's no ends or ifs or what's about that it it will not happen point in fox run definitely won't happen absolutely right so so i just wanted clarification i'm not trying to sway you or change your opinion jonathan in any way shape or form but i just wanted to clarify that if the support of the project part of the support of the project all of the project hinges on this so so i understand what you're saying and i understand that's not going to change your vote i understand that maybe as a result of needing the gift you wouldn't support the overall project was your statement uh to be clear i don't know if that was it or not but that's i'll say i'm happy to i'm happy to say it again i completely support the idea of a town center concept generally and the way this proposal has been presented but not including any of the school property i hope that's clear that's clear i just want i just wanted to see clarification jonas i see you have your hand up can you go ahead yeah yeah man i'm just not wild about the tenor and the tone here we're discussing this with you in good faith and you're you're interrupting us and like slapping the table but that's that i mean that's that's not great that's not great we're here as partners absolutely there's there's hold on you're interrupting me again we there are differing opinions we don't want to be in this position you got it you please please understand that please don't please don't speak to our our my fellow board members like that i for myself in in complete respect of all of you um i was just trying to leave sorry so i was just trying to point out that the two that to be in support of the project doesn't the project won't happen if without the land that's all i was trying to say i wasn't trying to be disrespectful and i apologize for any any disrespect i feel that i think everybody here is put in a tough position we've worked really hard and we have a lot a lot a lot of passion behind this and i ultimately think jonas like you said before there are differences and opinions but we also do do share one common thing and that's that's everybody's best interest so i i agree i apologize for all i may have played in a being offensive to you we certainly don't want to do that thank you that's well received i appreciate that thank you and thank you for bringing your concerns to our attention i appreciate that as well i thank you communication thank you that's how boards get things done thank you so we we have a couple of questions that i'm going to open it up for jen just in process so that we are sure about what our next steps are in and yeah go ahead jen yeah i'm just i think like mckaylin and ursula i'm relatively new to this whole process i'm trying to get a handle on just timeline in the process i know that this has been in the works and i know that we're committed to the best thing for our kids and for safety what i am trying to understand is um i guess maybe similar to some of the questions how did the design process get so far down the line without this conversation happening earlier like why why is the board in a position right now that the process would be halted it just seems to me like um i just don't understand that yet so that's a great question tom's gonna answer that question yeah so in in august of 2020 i i met with superintendent brian and began these discussions i uh and he was aware of the town's desire for this gift of land we wrote the school board a um a letter detailing of what our ask was in december of 2020 this the school board uh gave us in the march meeting on the march meeting about 10 minutes to present this to to them uh and it was suggested that we hold a series of meetings at the property we did that in the summer of 2020 uh and there was there was a continual promise that we would be on the um school board agenda in the relatively near future covid hit you lost your superintendent and that's why we're at this position where we're at i think there's some clarification oh scott i'll let you go first and then and thanks for i'm going to try to channel kari here on um on the process side and just make a suggestion and see if it um if it suits that we ask our lawyer to draft a property transfer agreement that can then be brought to the board at our next meeting for debate and decision so that we can see in black and white what the um what the actual love of the matter is and can discuss it and decide on that basis kris mcbaid um i'm just fully in support of scott suggestion um particularly since there's a time deadline here um but i would also suggest that furlin has a lawyer as well for this property transfer issue that the lawyers get together before our next board meeting so that you know i can imagine there'll be some debate about reversionary language and how many acres and things like that but all the other stuff that might go into the document is clarified and agreed to by the two attorneys at least before it comes to us so that we don't lose time after our meeting and things aren't clear but great suggestion scott i mean kari um my my quick question would be that before this meeting's adjourned um the town of berlin clearly has a town attorney uh and we would need to know who who we should be in communication with for the development of that um so i don't know who if the supervisor union will have a town attorney that they consistently use or or if if you have one in mind or how that works but if you can clarify for the town i think that would be useful we will send information to vince we are working with nick and we had been in communication before i think what i was trying to say with when i was on says like we will consider the conditions such as like scott and christus said right now we'll can we there would have to be some back and forth before the meeting in the 19th so that we are prepared to present something to the board to uh to make a decision on i just also want to make one last comment and just to to acknowledge that you know the school and the staff and everybody is under a lot of stress it feels like you know so it feels like a lot to put that on this on the on the school shoulders now right now so i just want you to understand that our you know our our willingness to to work to continue to work with with you and by no means we were trying to put you off if if for months it was clear that we needed more information from the town of berlin because we asked the questions we visit we we wanted to put it in your residence we did not want to make this decision isolation from the town of berlin well i'm i'm personally thankful for this meeting yeah i think that clarified and i appreciate everybody's time that participated tremendously thank you i'm i'm yet the third new board member so i want to just um acknowledge jonas's early comments that we're not coming from an adversarial place we've been charged with making a decision as a callous resident i don't live in berlin um i have had a general understanding that a town center was needed for berlin and planned but knew nothing about the specifics until the town manager and the attorney nick lowe came to speak with us and um you know we all just want to make the right decision for the larger community so thank you for taking the time today but please understand we're not coming from an adversarial place here we're being asked to do something that feels really difficult thanks thank you florida you have anybody else that would like to speak i i didn't see any hands up right now so do you think do you think it would be beneficial for for us to discuss like uh so we understand where you're coming from what you're just an actual maybe a little bit of a timeline so that nobody's questioning or we don't leave things up in the air uh you're you're gonna have your attorneys from what i understand start drafting uh some documentation for the potential transfer for discussion on the 19th is is that the the first goal here yes okay um and then where does it where does it go after that just so that the town understands and and we were clear so you'll have your initial discussion there'll obviously be some back and forth maybe maybe maybe you'll go stamp it love it uh maybe maybe wall maybe it'll go back and forth a little bit but uh i just curious what it looks like as we approach what the town has for a deadline um and and how we can support you and and and making sure that we give you everything you need to be able to make the process happen or decision happen on your end so you know the timeline is is pretty is pretty hard for us for us right now because we would send the packet out on the 14th to our board members so we are going to try to get this done while we're getting the board presentation for the budget done on the 12th to so we our hope is that we will get this be able to get nick right into work and use the use the end of this weekend next week to go back and forth with with you guys to be able to have something in the package for the board members to be able to read and be informed before our meeting on the on the 19th with the understanding that that meeting we would also be talking about budget and we also have to prove the budget so it would be it's so there's just a lot going on right now so so would it make sense for us to engage our attorney with nick in the process right and if nick if nick can't take on the task to just engage our attorney to draft something up as well for discussion um if just for you guys says a starting point i just want to make sure that we don't that that nick is has a family event or something and is unavailable that it doesn't delay the process for weeks on end so if in the event that nick's unavailable and our attorney communicates with nick and and and nick doesn't isn't able to draft up documentation or anything for you to discuss on the 19th would it be acceptable for them to decide for our our town attorney to look at something for you guys to look at as well i just you know what i mean i'm prefer not to have it happen that way but just i think we i think just for a matter of process we both need our attorneys and the two attorneys will come to a common agreement on what to present to the board so don't don't worry about it we we will make it we will make it happen if they can do it we will have somebody else in that office jump into it or we okay how somebody else but it it's for for better process each of us needs their own attorney yeah absolutely before the for anything were to occur but i just wanted to make sure things got started and we're all well on their way um and then so so on the 19th you'll have a discussion you'll obviously about budget and multiple other items that'll take hours and then maybe a little bit of discussion on this potential transfer and then when does the board meet again not until the first week of January as uh uh February sorry as a community forum but we we sometimes have business in there so if needed it would be that first week of February so the first week of February does that impact our deadlines with with any of this i mean we talked February 1st as a timeline so is there so wait so the vote can't happen on the 19th i just misunderstood that that's why i'm not saying that the vote can't happen i think that's what we are so i think and we don't need to hold the entire board on on this right now our intent is to try to make a decision on the 19th let's say that both sides can't come to a mutual agreement by the 19th worst-case scenario would be okay on the first week of February but you know i the outcome i can guarantee you what the outcome it's of course not right no we understand i just wanted to clarify every just so that we understood yeah thank you thank you and i and i i appreciate the position you're in and i i'm sure i did sound frustrated it's just because it's been a very long process and i don't mean to take that out on anybody on this call right so we appreciate that i think we're all set floor if you guys are um are you are you good on your end entertainment i think we are i don't see any other i'm sure there's going to be questions but thank you for your time and thank you for making this meeting happen this meeting happen thank you thank you all so much thank you and i oh entertain a motion to adjourn they're adjourning oh i don't get a vote thank you thank you