 So excited to be with Jen Loudon. We've had a couple of these interviews of the years, always such a joy, and it always inspires the viewers and the listeners. So Jen, thank you for doing this. Great to have you back. George, thank you for having me. I love talking to you. Yeah, thank you, thank you. Well, let me start with your bio, and then we'll get going. So Jen is an international bestselling author of nine books, close to a million copies of print. So proud of you, so happy about that. And Jen Loudon has been quoted in two of Brene Brown's books and featured on Oprah. Jen, you started coaching writers 20 years ago because you never wanted writers to experience the hurt and the bad advice that you did. You now work exclusively with non-fiction writers, crafting remarkable books that can last. Love that. And your recent book, Why Bother, the subtitle is what, OK, so it's Why Bother, Discover, the Desire for What's Next is doing great as far as I can tell on Amazon. Yes, yes. Well, you know, I mean, it's been out for two and a half years, so it's had time to get some reviews and some traction. Yeah, great, amazing reviews. So folks, be sure to check that out. I will, of course, link below to, you know, Jen's Amazon and other websites and things like that. But let's get into talking about what you have started focusing even more on. I mean, even leading writers retreats for 20 years. Is that right? Yeah, I think so. It's so interesting. I'm terrible at dates, George. I don't know if I know. I know, I know. Like, I was thinking like, like, we all need a historian for our business, like right now. But I have people who have come back from the first retreat. OK. So they tell me it's been 20 years. Not including the pandemic. Yeah, yeah, yeah, no, it's it's amazing how much experience you have with with leading and helping writers. And so one of the questions for you is I know a lot of people watching this want to write a book, have a dream of writing a book. Some people don't even realize that they can, like that they could have a dream of it. But anyway, so many people do have a dream. They don't do it. Why? Well, I think I think we make this mistake because we read books because we're surrounded by books because we love books. So and because we write every day, we write emails, we write memos, we write social media posts. We think that we can just sit down and do it. And we don't realize that just like a skill that we've had to learn in business, that things people have learned from you, for example, they are skills that you have to learn to write a book. It can make it so much more doable and so much easier. And honestly, I didn't know that when I started. My first book was published in 1992. I had no idea there was like one book in the world in the English language about how to write a book. But now there's so many resources. So I think the first time we have to step back and go, well, what is a book? And then the first question I ask people when they come to me for possible coaching is why a book? Because I don't know about you and your family story but for me, two of my aunts graduated only the eighth grade. Literacy, I mean, everyone in my extended family could read, but reading was very revered. And I think a lot of us have that in our family systems or our culture, reading is power, literacy is power. So when we have an idea and you are such a good model for this, when we have an idea, we're like, it's got to be a book. But the first question I ask my clients when they come or if they want to work with me is why a book? What is it about the book form? Because that's another reason, George, why it's hard to write a book. We don't think about what is the best form for what I want to accomplish? What I desire, the impact I desire, what I desire for my business, whatever it is, a book may be it, but sometimes it's a podcast. Sometimes it's a card deck. This is a client of mine's card deck, the Rainbow Bridge Pet Loss Deck. This does not need to be a book. People who are grieving, they don't want to think about it. They just want to be able to pull out a card and go, here's an idea of something I can do today. I'm working with a client right now who's writing for moms. Like, what's the best form as she really wants to write a book? And that's great. But when then, what's the form and the structure for moms? So so then who, well, who should write a book? Is it is it is the question the audience? No, I said a lot of some coaches totally great start with the reader. I think the reader is incredibly important, but I, because I work almost but not exclusively with women, I start with what do you want the project to do for you? Because women in particular, and maybe this is true for you because you're very caring and loving, hard to have a hard time owning their own desires. So they immediately think about what other people might need. Instead of what do you want this to do? Do you want to and I don't mean New York Times bestseller list. I'm like, do you want more clients? Do you want more visibility? Do you want to really codify your work? Another client I'm working with right now, long time, like communications expert for corporations wants to be able to handle clients. Here's what I know. Here's what I believe. Let's work from this. So what do you want from the project? And then you can start to think, well, gosh, this is a terrible metaphor. It may not work for you at all. But I think of you. You have this big jar of Jell-O and you can pour it into all kinds of forms. You can pour it into your aunt Edna's weird little Jell-O mold. Or you could do Jell, you know, pour it into things, you know, ice cubes to make Jell-O shots. But it's all your ideas. What form is going to serve you best? And is there a. Have you noticed the, you know, the people coming to you who are ready and that they should write a book? But I guess maybe the question for you is how the person asking themselves, how do I know what form my ideas should go into? Yeah, yeah. Well, I think it's often a really good conversation and different prompts that I will give them and kind of just like you have to do with your clients have to kind of drill down. We have a lot of assumptions that we all have assumptions that we're unaware of. And and my love of literature and my love of books, I have to set it aside, you know, and say blogging and, you know, maybe it's maybe it's LinkedIn content. Maybe it's short videos. Maybe it's like, again, let's talk about where your people are, which brings, you know, which brings us to that just right reader person. Or right. And so let's say someone does say, yes, I that is my desire. I've always seen myself in the future as a author. It would make me so proud of, you know, myself totally legit and important. Yeah. And I think my colleagues and clients would find it, you know, building credibility and stuff like that. So nonfiction books, usually, right? That's that's whom you've coached mostly. And yeah, that's most most of the folks who are watching or listening to this work as some kind of a service provider and writing and nonfiction books makes a lot of sense for them. And so, OK, writing a book, you know, that you say, as a book, a remarkable book that lasts. Why is it so hard for some of the books are published every day? Why is it so hard for people to actually create a book that's that significant? I think that we're there's so many reasons, George. One is that we it's we've got to really dig in to what is that one big idea or core message or controlling idea or whatever you want to call it. I call it a big idea because I like people to own their bigness that we are willing to be a stand for and be seen. And most people are really afraid to take a stand. I don't mean you have to be belligerent or controversial or anything like that. But you're a stand for joyful productivity. You're a stand for your spiritual life and your last book, Soul Gym, right? You took a stand and you said you could have mashed all those books together, which is another reason why books don't work. They try to be everything to everybody, which is the first thing I usually have to. Well, the first thing I have to be is, do you want to write a book? Why do you want to write a book? The second thing is, no, you can't be everything to everybody. I mean, I can't tell you how many writers say. But I want it to be for me and I want to do it and I'm like, no, it won't work. Those people are all not going to buy the same book. I just said to do this with the client who's writing for mothers. So I think the first thing is that we don't we don't want to choose. We don't want to choose that one idea. We don't want to say I'm willing to be seen. Like it's it looks like let me tell you, it's a little embarrassing to write a book called by bother. Right? It's a little cynical. It's sounding and you know me, I'm not a cynical person at all. It's a little like pokey, you know, but I really was passionate about these conversations I've had with so many women over the years where they just get to the site and men, men are in the book too, where they're I just I don't know why I would make an effort anymore in my marriage, in my career, in my health. I just don't know how I could get up and try it again. Yeah. And this is great. So does you do does that I mean, the work you do with clients, do you help them to clarify that big idea or it's essential? So the first thing is what do you desire from this book? And then even that will take digging. Yeah. And then the second thing is usually the next thing I do is who is this book for who was it for? Right. And one of the things that I want to share that are just life changing for me is from a writing coach called A.J. Harper. Love her new friend. And she said, you are not writing for people who have identical lives. I'm looking at my quote, you are writing for people who share the same goal. And I think one of the things that really trips people up George, when they end this, you probably find this with client avatars, right? That they it feels too restrictive to them because it is restrictive. Like, but everybody who reads Why Bothered is struggling with the same problem. The law just everywhere from despair to afternoon flaws, right? But everybody has the same desire to feel passionate again, to feel purpose again, to feel desire for something again. So when I realized that, I realized it could be women, it could be men. It wasn't just middle aged women who I originally thought I was writing for. So the anyway, I've forgotten your question. I got no, no, that's great. No, no, no, no, that's exactly right. That you're helping you're helping the aspiring writer to clarify that big idea that is really exciting and that that you say the unifying goal among the readers of a book. And and that helps them clarify the big, big idea. It's one of the many things we do. But probably the hardest work that a lot of people do when they're writing a book is clarifying that big idea. It doesn't mean there can't be some ideas, but there has to be one theme. I mean, again, look at your books. You picked a big idea for each of those books, and that's how you knew how to gather what material. Yes, exactly. Now, what if someone says, like you said, choosing, like, what if I have seven big ideas? Or or what if I don't know of you ever have people like, what if I have three big ideas? Like, like some people, like, you know, they might even have like a graphic representing their framework or something. I have these three big ideas. Does that does that is that one big idea that has three sub ideas? I guess it depends on how they want to frame it, right? Yeah, it depends. I was interviewing the editor for Why Bother has written her first book. Her name is Amanda Lewis. It's called Tracking Giants that comes out next year. And it started as a travel book about finding the biggest trees. They're called Champion Trees in BC. It became a memoir of how the search for the big trees changed her and taught her about perfectionism, big goals and the true nature of life, which is nothing is fixed. You never arrive. But that that's the journey that I often go on with clients. And at some point, you do have to say, this is that I'm doing it because there is really no done. I mean, if I wrote Why Bother now today, I'd write a different book. I'd write a different book. And you probably feel that about you. Well, you've released other editions of your book now. For sure. Yeah. And that's actually that. I think that's one of the hardest parts about publishing a book. Yes. And I wonder what you're. It's like the moment you publish it. I mean, even during the publishing process, it's like, wait, wait, wait, wait. The book draft was completed months ago. And then the publishing process sometimes depends on the it's like it might take a few months to actually get out there. And by the time you're putting out there, like I've moved on. But right. I wrote, you know, traditional books, which took a year before they're out. Wow. And yeah. How do you work with that? Well, I guess there's times afterwards you have to go on tour, I guess. Yeah. Yeah. You have to talk about the next three years. I talk I talked about my first book, The Woman's Comfort Book, that helped start the self care movement for 30 years. Wow. Sometimes I still get an interview question about an interview. I'm like, really? Wow. Yeah. Well, I think there's a couple of things. One, what was it like to learn that information then? You got to go back in time, just like you do for the people who are listening or working with their clients or their their customers. Oh, right. I'm able to do this for you because I was there. Maybe I was there 30 years ago. Maybe I was there three months ago. So you got to go back. You got to use your imagination and your empathy to go back and tap into that if you're giving a talk or a podcast interview or whatever. Yeah. Yeah. And OK, so then speaking to or writing to the reader, you have so much you can say about that. But what are maybe some common pitfall or that that we we get into when we're trying to write right right to the reader? Yeah. Well, it's OK to have multiple people in mind. They may be real people. You can have one. You can have, you know, because it's a type of reader who has this common problem or issue or curiosity, if you don't want to be problem focused, that's fine. And they have these common obstacles or misbeliefs or things that are getting in their way. So really one of the things that I ask my clients to do and it's really, really hard for them to do this is keep imagining that they're stretching to connect generously to that reader. We hold back. We think we don't know enough. We're not clever enough. We're not smart enough. We're going to run out of material. I've never found this to be true. You just have to dug deep enough. And so I'm constantly focusing on saying. One of my editorial commons is dig deeper. In fact, one year, one of my clients was like, I'm going to give you a damn shovel. I'm going to give you like a little gold plated shovel through your desk. If you write dig deeper in my comments one more time. But that's really it's really the same thing that we were just saying. You have to empathetically put yourself in their shoes because especially when you're writing to someone like with the Why Bother book, these are people who are freaked out or scared or tired or like nothing is going to work. So I had to constantly be keeping that in mind and drawing them in and reassuring them and giving them examples and anecdotes and stories so that they felt seen. And we can't do that unless we're willing to really say there is a person there that I am stretching with my whole heart to reach. I'm willing to vulnerably put my heart out there. And that doesn't mean you have to be writing about yourself. Like I wrote about myself a lot in Why Bother. You don't have to write about yourself. You don't have to open your commono if you don't want to. But you have to be emotionally honest. Wow. Yeah. That is the the the labor of love rate that it is. It's service. It's really service. And it's it's being willing to go through that next pass to go. These exercises aren't working. They're not clear. I need to go test them with some more people. I was just coaching someone who's not writing a book. She's writing a credit. She decided to turn it into a course, better fit for right now. And she's run it before, but she's only run it once. And I'm like, you're going to have you can start selling it again, but you're going to have to iterate. You're going to iterate the sales page and you're going to have to it's going to take time before you can really put into language what this course does. She says she's having a hard time believing in it because she doesn't have those. She doesn't have that many people who've gone through it yet. Yeah. Yeah, I've had that experience too, for sure. Sure. Yeah. And speaking of, I mean, like the the the testing of it, do you recommend you mentioned that word? Like how do how does an author, an aspiring author test their ideas? Yeah, so maybe it's if it's clients, it's making sure that it's clear to the clients. It's sharing the worksheets with clients. So the client that I have that's working on the communication book, like she's dropping in so many things that she has used repeatedly. So she knows the tools work. What she's working on and doing great with is explaining them in narrative form because she's not there in the room to give the examples. So you have to test it. I don't care who you're testing it with, but you have to know that the promise you're making in that book is one you can deliver and that the exercises and anecdotes and stories are clear. And you go back to that original question. Why don't we write remarkable lasting books? Because we're not willing to slow down enough to do that work because we're a hurry up, get it out. Oh, it'll just be a lead magnet. Oh, I don't care if anybody reads it. I'm like, why are you going to do all this work? Yeah, it's just a big business card. Yeah, it's like, OK, that's fine. You can write little books. I mean, there's lots of there's lots of different forms of books out there. I was going to show you my friend Rick Hansen, wonderful, wonderful meditation, neurobiologist and neuropsychologist. And, you know, he had several bestselling books and then he took them out and made little practices out of them that were both his newsletter in this, you know, short, wonderful book. But wait, every book doesn't have to be a manifesto of, you know, lasting for all time. But I but I really want people to resist that hurry up, get it out. It doesn't matter. I don't care if anybody reads it. When someone says that to me, I just go ballistic. Right. Yeah. Well, it's not the right line. So you can mention connect generously, dig deep. And yet there's also the danger of thinking man them opus. This is the one like, especially if it's the first book. Yes, I got to put everything. But that's everything I know has to get the big idea and for. So it becomes like a like banks on a river, right? So here, like or like a circle that's containing or a bowl, right? And that's why I'm there to say, no, no, no, no. That's not part of your big idea or that's not your just right reader. Like I coached a woman on a book called It's a Tango, Not a War. She's lived with type one diabetes. Since she was young, as many people do. And she is a diabetes educator, been working on the book for 10 years. Finally came to me. I helped her finish it. It's out there in the world. It's a great book. But she persisted until I like held her down in wanting to write it for people who were new to diabetes, people who were parents of diabetic kids, diabetic educators, doctors. And it's like, that's not who the book is for. The book is for people who've been living with it for a long time and are trying to thrive and still have a life with all these worries, dangers and restrictions. Well, that's part of what you got to keep working. That who's my reader? What's the big idea? It's a tango, not a war. Is your idea? I love that. And it's you can write more books in the future. Yes, I do tell them that. I say make it a beautiful notebook. I don't mind over there, but have a beautiful notebook. And when another idea comes, put it down in your earliest handwriting and say, I love you so much. Next time. Quick thing. And then I'd love to talk a bit about how people can reach you and work with you. But setting realistic goals. So what, what, how do we? Because it's like, typically it's like the magnet is just going to become a bestseller. Yeah. Just like Jen's books. Like, how do we? What kind of expectation might we have? Well, I think the first thing is, is always to have goals that you can meet no matter what. So when I was writing my bother, I wanted to write the most emotionally true book I could write. Now, there's no, there's no like meter that goes off and says, you did it. But I would just keep feeling into my body while I was writing, while I was revising, when I would read it at the end. Yes, this is true. Now I'm dodging something or I'm being facile here. Or so that was one goal for me. I wanted to take the pain of a few really bad years of my life and turn it into something useful. Again, no meter goes off, but I knew I did my best, right? As I could in that period of time, I was writing that book. And I wanted to codify some of my most important ideas that I've been teaching and make sure that they were in one place that could live if I stopped teaching them in the forms that I've been teaching them. So having those kind of goals are really important. And then I think having goals that you know, you can take regular action on. So let's say you want to use it to get clients. Well, then you could say, I'm going to pitch four podcasts a week that I know my clients listen to. I can't guarantee I'll get on them, but I can guarantee I can make a decent pitch. Right. I'm, you know, you can set those kind of measurable goals that go towards the again, tangible things that you want to get in front of these clients to send these mini copies to the people that you want to have hire you to speak, that kind of thing. It's great to have big lofty goals to get on a bestseller list. But if they're not connected to what matters to you, I've been on bestseller lists and it's gone, right? It's just it doesn't last. Right. Yeah. What lasts is writing something you care about and getting in or finding the people you want to help. Really good. So who is the ideal client, perfect client for you at this moment? Like who should come to you for support in writing their nonfiction book? People who are willing to have the time and the energy to show up regularly. One of the things that's not a good fit for me is someone who's taking 17 classes and doing a million different things and can't like is going to pay me but not to open to the work. So someone who's really got some bandwidth for it. Someone who's willing to really be in conversation. They're not brittle about their ideas. They realize that a book is a living thing like this story that I told about my editor whose book changed as she wrote it. And then people who really want to have an impact on culture, whatever, whether that's the culture of their workplace or the culture at large or the culture of many, many subgroups. I coach Lauren Fleshman, who's a world famous runner on her memoir that comes out in January from Penguin Putnam, Good for a Girl. And it's an amazing story. Her life's an amazing story. But what makes it a culture changing book is that she is a manifesto woven in there of how to change coaching in sports for women and girls. And that made me really delighted to work on it. Wow, that's inspiring. So good. So what would be a good step for people to either apply to work with you or see if it's the right fit? Yeah, you can come up. Yeah, come over, read some blog posts, get on my email list. We have a freebie of five ways to start your nonfiction book that get you thinking like, is my style your style? Yeah. And then we have an intensive coming up at my house in February and online in May. Start your book, find your hook. It's three days, hard core, get those foundations, all the stuff we've been talking about, lots more, get it really clear. That's a great place to start to. Yeah. Well, I will put those links below so people can check out, you know, and, you know, get on the email list for sure. And, you know, you'll of course, when you have space, you know, let your email list know. I do. Yeah, so great. That's awesome. Anything, any other Latin, you know, parting words of wisdom and courage for the author. You know, it's not, so many of us want to write, and we say it's impossible. I saw somebody at a party Sunday night, I didn't know or she came up to me, I heard your writing coach. I am not writing. I'm watching Netflix and drinking wine. How do I start writing? And I'm like, I don't know. Where's that desire to express yourself? How do you feed that desire and then make it into teeny tiny containers? Maybe it's 10 minutes before you start the Netflix and the wine, right? Start to build it into your life, but not through discipline so much as through desire. Oh, I love it. Love it. Thank you so much, Jen. George, thank you. You're the best. Thank you.