 My name is Connor Goodwin and I'm ProPublica's Interim Director of Communications. We're excited to be partnering with GRIS to bring you tonight's event, How White Conservationists Are Changing Life in a Black Farming Town. For those new to us, ProPublica is a nonprofit newsroom dedicated to investigative journalism. Our partner, GRIS, is a nonprofit independent media organization dedicated to telling stories of climate solutions and a just future. This event is built around Tony Briscoe's reporting on Pembroke Township, a historically black community 60 miles south of Chicago that has a proud legacy of farming. But recent controversial land acquisitions by predominantly white conservation groups have imperiled the livelihood of black farmers there. Tonight's event, which is broken into three parts, will address issues related to race, power, and land stewardship. In the first section, ProPublica reporters Tony Briscoe and Lizzie Presser will discuss threats to black land ownership. In the second section, Tony will moderate a discussion with Pembroke residents and a member of the Field Museum to unpack the dynamics at play in the township. Finally, the third section will be devoted to questions from the audience. If you'd like to ask a question, just click the Q&A icon at the bottom of your screen and type it there. And now I'll introduce our first speakers. Tony and Lizzie, could you please turn your cameras on? Okay. Tony Briscoe is a reporter for ProPublica. He previously worked at the Chicago Tribune as an environmental reporter. Lizzie Presser is also a reporter for ProPublica where she covers health, inequality, and how policy is experienced. Before I hand it off, I want to note that this session is being recorded and a link to the video will be emailed to everyone who registered. Thanks again to Gris for partnering with us and thanks to McKinsey and Company for their support. I'll let you guys take it from here. Thank you, Connor. Tony, it's great to talk to you about this piece. I wanted to just start by asking how you came to it. What drew you to the story and how did you find it? Yeah, we actually came across this story. I actually wasn't really familiar with the Pembroke area before this. Came across this story from a tip from someone who was talking about conservation plans and these plans from folks who are largely outside of Pembroke Township to convert large segments of the community into this network of nature sanctuaries, which outwardly doesn't sound like anything that would be controversial, but the more that we dug into it, it became this very nuanced story and we were really kind of listening to the community and wanted to explore their concerns, which were a lot about the loss of farmland, a loss of a way of life, and impacts to the tax base. What were the mechanisms that you were finding were most commonly used to acquire land from Black landowners in Pembroke? Yeah, I would say the most controversial part of this story was actually the fact that private individuals and conservation groups, most notably the Nature Conservancy, which has some pretty deep pockets, were acquiring land in this financially challenged community at tax sale. So in many cases, they were going to these tax auctions and this is a concern that I think it's been brought up by a lot of folks that Black farmers were losing land due to these financial hardships because historically they haven't been able to get access to loans or they're distrustful of financial institutions that have really discriminated against them. And the next thing that happened is they're stitching together more and more land that has been lost by these Black farmers or Black landowners that had been historically discriminated against. Yeah. And yeah, no, I wanted to ask you because I know that you've done a lot of reporting on Black land loss in North Carolina as a part of your dispossessed series. And these issues, it's like a tangled web sometimes in terms of how the loss of Black farmland or the loss of Black land, how that comes to be. I guess I wondered what were some of the main drivers of Black land loss that you found during your reporting. And I guess, do you see any kind of overlap or similarities with Pembroke? A lot. And I was, I guess I'd back up and say that I was focusing very specifically on air's property, which is a legal concept that describes land that's been passed down without a will. And it's usually been owned in test state is the legal term, but by the next generation of family members and it's almost like they own stocks in a company and it makes this kind of land ownership extraordinarily fragile. And it sounded from your story like you were running across the same thing with families you were meeting. So I was looking at legal ways to essentially take land from people who had air's property, which is much more common among Black Americans than it is among White Americans. I believe it's, I think right now it's about 76% of Black Americans in this country don't have a will, which is more than double the number of White Americans. So it continues to be a major problem. And much of that is historical, right? It's rooted in reconstruction and then Jim Crow era laws and in fears of, at least when I was looking at it of Southern courts and of white supremacy in Southern courts. So there was good reason for Black families to avoid making wills and avoid registering their land. And they face the consequences today. And so I was looking at adverse possession, which is a way that an air or someone else can come onto your property and claim that they have been using it continuously and publicly and with hostility and then seize that land. And I was looking at partition sales, which was a way in which just one air could sell their share to a developer or a land speculator. And then that outsider could force a sale through the courts that families couldn't afford to pay. And there was land that they believed was theirs to begin with so they didn't also believe they should have to pay. And then I was also looking at tax sales, which you write about in Pembroke as well. And as you were saying, these are families who because they have airs property, weren't necessarily able to access the same kind of financing for their homes that other families who have clear titles can, right? They can't often qualify for HUD loans for a house repair loans from the federal government. They can't often qualify for FEMA loans if there's been a disaster in their area. So they kind of slowly see the wealth in their property erode without any way to fix it. And tax sales are extremely complicated to fight, especially if you're an airs property owner. Sometimes you try to pay and the court will say you can't pay because you're not listed as an air. And you can't probate that estate and it does as you say become this really tangled web. I was just going to say, I'm curious, in your experience, I mean, how has the loss of black homeland impacted the communities that you reported on in the long run? And also just kind of riffing off that, I mean, have you seen any kind of initiatives or any kind of efforts that have successfully helped stem this trend? I think I saw a number of different long-term impacts and it's impossible to kind of list them all in this short form. But I mean, just imagine losing your family land. It's really, I think on one level, it's a sense of identity and history for a family and the loss of land can break a family apart. It's no longer a place where people can come together for family reunions, where you can all get together for whatever occasion. I'm going actually back down to North Carolina in a couple weeks for the matriarch's 95th birthday where she'll have over 100 relatives coming down to her heirs property for her birthday. I mean, and that's, it's a tie to your roots in a lot of families. So there's that, I think I was also seeing though that many families who had heirs property had built these local economies of their own. So in an age where, where jobs are increasingly being lost, this is a way to build some like micro economies. And so I was focused on a family that had taught themselves how to work the water and were, and were fishers and crabbers and worked the land to and freeze watermelon and tobacco and corn and that's their heritage and that's also their livelihood. And so when they lose access to that, they also lose access to financial stability. And then the other piece of it was leisure, I must say, which was that I was writing about a family that owned a beachfront and under Jim Crow laws, it was the only black owned beach in the county and so it was a way for people in the county to relax. And when they talk about that land that they no longer have access to it's like they have lost a sense of freedom in some ways. So those are just three examples but I could go on and on. But I did, I wanted to ask you in reading your article I was writing about developers who are buying up heirs property and I wondered how you saw the difference when it's conservationists who are buying up. The property or just land owned by black farmers. Yeah, I mean it's, it's an interesting distinction right it's, you know, in many cases, and I will say this, it's a caveat in there that, you know, conservationists are not the first outside group to buy land in Pembroke or to capitalize on black land loss in Pembroke. There have been generations of outside land speculators be it folks who are buying land and flipping it for profit or folks, you know, larger commercial farmers who have encroached on black land loss and so this is something that has dwindled down over the years. The main distinction between, you know, folks who are buying land and you know doing it for, you know, maybe business reasons or development reasons or things like that. And, you know, conservationists are really the tax breaks, which have been cited by, you know, a number of elected officials representing this area, which are, you know, once these conservationists are buying this land and they string together enough of this land. They're, you know, imposing these land restrictions which, you know, not only, you know, restrict what can be done on this land in some cases permanently with some activities, but it also entitles them in some cases to tax breaks so it's allowed folks like the Nature Council, which, you know, you know reported more than a billion dollars and their most recent, you know, tax filing to, you know, essentially pay less than previous landowners which in this community the median household income is $29,000. So you have folks that, you know, are plenty capable of paying taxes that are lowering their tax obligation in a community that has many infrastructure needs. Yes. It's quite different in some ways. What did you see was at stake in Pembroke as this land is being bought up. You know, I would say that it's a lot of what you found also. I mean, you know, loss of, I mean, certainly there's, you know, loss of, you know, generational wealth with, which is concerning and, you know, black community like Pembroke because obviously can't be passed down from generation to generation. But, you know, also it's, you know, owning land there is more than just having a deed. It's, you know, understanding the adversity that folks had to go through to obtain this land. It really kind of hones in on why, you know, holding on to it, retaining it, passing it down is so special. So, you know, it is a way of life. Like you said, this is a community that really appreciates being able to ride their horses, farming, you know, hunting in the woods that exist there. And just enjoying the natural features which are quite rare in a state like Illinois where there is so much. And, you know, this is a rare ecologically diverse farming community that there are plenty of these rare sandy oak savannas. And so people really enjoy these natural features. So it is a way of a lossable way of life. In addition to, like you said, the livelihoods that exist because this is one of the few strongholds for, you know, black, black farming in Illinois. So thank you guys. This is a great moment to transition to the second part of tonight's event, which will focus on the specific dynamics at play and Pembroke, and we'll feature voices from the community. So allow me to introduce the next round of speakers. Pam will be joining us by phone and Pam is the farmer whose family roots in Pembroke span several generations. We also have Sharon and Erica, you guys can go ahead and turn your cameras on. Sharon Sharon White is a former supervisor of Pembroke Township and as supervisor, she joined other local officials to oppose the fish and wildlife surface nature refuge proposal. Erica Hassel joined the Field Museums Keller Science Action Center over 10 years ago. They bring their background in both ecology and mapping to the center's work in Pembroke Township, and their research on urban monarchy butterfly conservation. Thanks for joining us 20. I'll let you take it from here. Yeah, so, you know, I want to first off, you know, go around by, you know, going around to all three panelists, and asking you a couple of questions if that's okay by you. We'll start with with you, Pam, and then we'll go to Sharon and then Erica. So, you know, first off, I just wanted to know if you could just describe for the audience your connection to Pembroke, and then also give your thoughts on, you know, how the actions of outside conservationists in your opinion affected the community. And we'll start with you, Pam. Hey, Marie there. Okay, Sharon, let's go to you. Can you describe your connection to Pembroke and your thoughts on how the actions of outside conservationists have affected the community in your opinion? Sure. I'm a resident of approximately 15 years. I'm a minister. I work for the state of Illinois at some time, some time in my career. And I also as an input and contractor facilitate grants for the community and other communities. So, my initial, my, I'm sorry, my initial working with Pembroke. I was hired as a grant writer for the municipality. And once I realized that the, the problems of Pembroke were institutionalized that I thought I'd be more effective if I became one of leaders in the community so I ran for for council supervisor. I won. And I thought that's where you can make the change at the top. One of the Pembroke has some has a dynamic of many different issues that plagued them. One of the issues was that they took a service. When I realized our tax base and I was analyzing where the funds come up. Why, why are we lacking some of the resources that some of the other communities have. I found that the tax base was very small, but the tax base was getting smaller. So, what I did was I looked at on properties I looked at what the property taxes were. And I said, okay, then I found out that nature to service see was such an intricate part of the community. The community didn't realize journey muted yourself. Oh, yeah. Can you hear me now. Can you hear me now. Okay, how nature to service has entrenched themselves in the community where the community is way well unaware of. So when nature to servicing purchase property in a community like Pembroke, they change the designation of those properties to conservation. And how does that affect the tax base well conservation designations do not pay taxes, or they pay very little taxes compare to what it would have been as a homestead. And those properties cannot go back as homesteads. So, once the designation as a conservation, and I, and if you wanted to purchase it back from them, you still would have to keep it as conservation you could not go back to homestead, where the property taxes grow. And in municipalities the way miss and that's municipalities grow is through their tax base which is property tax. That's where they get their revenue from. So as the revenue diminishes, when they purchased the property, because the low low or no taxes that they pay, then you started collapse the communities tax base, you collapse the community tax base the community collapse. You don't have 3040 years at some point, it will collapse to itself because now you don't have the money for schools you don't have money for the roads, you don't have money. And then on the water system the water system will collapse because they were purchasing properties that were designated on the water system for homesteading. So, no one actually realized that that was occurring until, or they did we didn't they didn't tell the people. And so I got a rallied around the people I put our referendum on a ballot to say hey, this is what's happening do you want nature services in our community. It was a 90% say no, with that ballot and after the first time that have ever been done. The community was asked what did they want for themselves in a whole in a in a generality type way, instead of just flyers so it was a vote saying no we don't want nature services in our community, because they're not open to tell us what their plans are. So, that was one of the biggest impact. And I remember citing the referendum in, you know, 85% of the community in that case, you know, the voters that turned out saying that they did not want, you know, the nature conservancy buying land for conservation. And we'll certainly circle back to that a little bit later. Eric, I want to turn to you and have you discuss your connection to Pembroke and your thoughts on conservation there. Yeah, thank you so much for having me Tony, and it's good to see you. Good to see you. Yeah, so I am not a resident of Pembroke. I work at the Field Museum of Natural History where a naturalist museum located in Chicago. And I work in a department called the Keller Science Action Center and we're a little bit different than a lot of departments that you might expect in the museum. I'm not a dinosaur or a mummy expert. We actually are a mix of folks with myself that have ecological training and knowledge about the local landscape, like my colleagues who are social scientists, anthropologists and educators. And so we came to Pembroke over, we were aware of it for a long time, Pembroke is well known in the Chicago, you know, we're not unassociated with the Chicago conservation world. And we've, one of the first things projects that we worked on was actually an exhibit, because that does sound like something that a museum does. We were funded to work with folks in the community, including Pem, who is joining us as a co-creator on an exhibit called Rooted, the Richness of Land and Culture that's in the library today. And that was a fascinating year of really getting to work with both our co-curators in Pembroke and interviewing lots of people in the community. And what came out of that was really being aware of people's worries, people's worries about large scale agriculture coming into the community, illegal logging, fly dumping, things like that. But also getting to know people's values, what they saw is the assets of the community. I mean, one of the things I appreciated about the article was that so many things written about Pembroke are written about all the things that Pembroke doesn't have. And not a lot has been written about how great Pembroke is, the assets. And so that is really the center of our approach, wherever we work is to focus on community assets and building towards the vision that the community has. And so that's what we've tried to do over the process over a number of years. And I think probably the most striking thing to me is through many, many, many interviews with lots of folks in Pembroke that people have a deep value, a deep ethic with the land. And that's borne out by the landscape. Residents of Pembroke have been stirring that landscape for 150 years and it's done a great job. That's why I can tell you that there's globally important conservation land there. So I think that's really the focus of our work as a museum. Thank you for that, Erica. And yeah, no, it was really helpful when I was first going out to the community to see you guys's exhibit over at the library there. And seeing all the different soil types and, you know, actually Pams, you know, many things that she's made out of natural herbs, berries and kind of the local traditions and becoming familiar with that. I think we do have Pam now. And Pam, if you're there, I wanted to ask you, we're just kind of going around the room and talking to all the panelists. I mean, could you describe your connections at Pembroke and give us your thoughts on, you know, how the actions of outside conservationists have affected the community in your opinion? Well, I came to Pembroke in 1959. I was eight years old. I worked as a village treasurer, township clerk, deputy assessor for 16 years, and now I'm the current assessor. My father was a farmer, my husband and I are farmers, and now my son is a farmer. We have five generations to live in Pembroke township. And we've always respected the land, and so does many of our neighbors, most of our neighbors. We are the ones who have conserved this land. The only thing I see them do is I'm talking about the conservationists start fires every two years, which I think is a really bad practice because it displaces the wildlife. I see these so-called conservationists as land grabbers. The nature's conservancy came here to buy land to make sure and this is a quote that their children will be able to enjoy in the future. Yeah, I really appreciate, you know, having your experience and having, you know, someone whose family has so much of a connection in the community. And, you know, things I would say, you know, really kind of came to a head in about, I would say, 2014, 2015, 2016, around that time period where there was a lot of things going on. Like I said, there are many different organizations and individuals from the conservation front that were involved in Pembroke. There was the Wildlife Refuge Plan by the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service. There was Nature Conservancy that had their own plans and so on and so forth. And, Erica, I wanted to turn to you and see, you know, could you explain what role the Field Museum played as these tensions rose between, I guess, these outside conservationists and members of the Pembroke community. And I guess also why the Field Museum found it so important to intervene. Yeah, I think it's certainly around 2014, 2015, 2016. I wanted to get a shirt printed that said the Field Museum cannot buy land. I think that was an important component. We literally don't even own the land that the building is on. It's rented from the Unchitago Park District. And so we, to some extent, can provide that neutral role. At that point, we had been working in the community for a long time and we had worked through this assets process, which we use in a lot of places we work. We've helped in part with our work in the Andes Amazon region of South America, which doesn't sound like it's like Pembroke, but it is because it's a place where there's globally important conservation that is where that is stewarded by the people that live there. And so leveraging the assets and the values of the people who have lived on the landscape. In the case of Pembroke, we work with folks and literally put them on a map. This is one of the places. This is the water and sewer line that Sharon talked about. This is where it's located. This is where businesses are. This is where a lot of people's homes are located. And so putting that on a map next to the existing land that was part of the conservation landscape, and providing that is a place to have that discussion. I find that one of the things that I hope when we're doing our job as well that we do is we speak conservation. That's my training I went to natural resources school. And I have colleagues who work with people their social scientists, and we also invested deeply in education. And one of the things we heard from folks is the importance of the school there's a school in Pembroke and Zora Smith technology and working with students there providing experiences for kids to grow that next generation of folks that has that conservation ethic and that was already happening in the community but being able to provide a resource for those kids. It's something that we did in Pembroke and something we do in Chicago. Thank you. Pam and Sharon, I wanted to turn back to you because you know the Nature Conservancy as the largest land buyer in the area there, you know has talked a lot about being a good neighbor and steps that they've, they have stopped, you know buying parcels of land. They say on developable parcels along the sewer and water lines, you know, places where I think village and township officials see as maybe this could be a place where a home is built or or so on and so forth. They've also stopped buying a tax sale after that issue was kind of raised. So last tax sale that they went to was in 2015. I wanted to turn to you all to ask, you know, how can outside conservation groups like the Nature Conservancy better work with local communities in your opinion. Pam, can we start with you and then I'll go to you Sharon. Okay, first, first of all, they're still buying land in subdivisions subdivisions were developed to put housing on. Most of Pembroke Township around the main street. Maybe the first one to six or seven sections are in subdivision. So, it doesn't have to be on a on the water and sewer line to be developed. People are on well. They have septic tanks and people have lived on some of the land that conservation bought. So we still have well the septic tanks on it. But what there's what what they're doing is stopping there's stopping people from expanding. Like I had a piece of land next to me, and they wanted that land I couldn't expand I can buy anything for my, for my children to live on their land. Good neighbors don't do that. What one of the things that I feel like they need to do is get to know the people out there out here, educate the people on what they can do to help conserve the land we've already conserved the land better take care of the land. I don't understand why they have to come into areas already being conserved and just take it. That's not being a good neighbor. There's not being a neighbor at all. And Sharon, you actually had the chance to sit down with folks during this time period you're in your capacity as township supervisor. You know, I'm curious with you I guess, did you make any kind of suggestions or, you know, what were your thoughts that you wanted to express on how the nature conservancy and other groups could be better neighbors. Yes, we did meet the mayor, which at the time was my car still is mayor, we sat down with the county with the museum and that's how I met Erica nature conservancy the wildlife. And we actually came up with a contractual like agreed on a great contractual of look, if you're going to purchase land, let us know don't purchase the land. This is why, and we actually came up with a really good document about what our community needs and how they could integrate in our community. I don't think they have here today document now. It's because of the time has passed and those people are not in those capacities anymore, but I have to agree with Miss Pam pursue in that. Why is it that they feel that they have to save us when we can save ourselves if there's compensation compensation that needs to be done. Why is it that you can't teach the people and we've been doing a good job because there's no place ever like this in the United States so obviously we're doing something correct and keeping this place the way it is. So if we needed some enhanced skills. Why isn't it they say hey this is what you guys need to continue this. Here's the technology or this is what you need a skill set, instead of saying what we're going to do it for you because you are able to do it. That's an insult to a community. Particularly to a community like us when we've, we have the property and the land is there. So, you know, they didn't come in. You know when a neighbor comes to you they knock on your door days are here. Here's some cookies. Here we hear we want to, you know, be friends. That did not happen. They just basically came on your land, even trespassed and said okay, we know how to keep this better than you. You want to preserve it. Sorry, yep, you're going to lose it. We'll catch it. And that's how they did they didn't say well how, how do the people keep their property. I mean, they have a lot of resources that they could have shared with us about the conservation. And that's still today. They haven't shared the knowledge of the conservation is like. They're, they're burning because that's part of their conservation but did they talk to the neighbors do they give science and they're not going to never say we're going to burn today. You know, we have wildfires. We have a volunteer fire department. So, you know, the fire goes out. Wow, then that's the issue for our community. Those kind of things are not that of friend. And that they don't go to any other neighborhoods to do that, or any other communities, and not not stop at the at the, the, the ruling bodies and say hey this is what we're doing and can we get your support they never asked for support. So that was some of the issues that we had when we were meeting that you never knocked on our doors. We never got the cookies. Thank you. I'd like to piggyback on that. And because I was in the first meeting when they first came here. And they told us that they were going to take this area in a public meeting. And they said, they would, they would start off buying from willing sellers. And then they would buy from absentee land owners first. And they said, in 20 years we'll have no. And yeah, they said that they would have the area. Is that the US Fish and Wildlife Service that you're referring to? No, it was, they were all at the table together. Okay, that's true. All sitting together at the table. And they were going to have it. They were going to take this land. The neighbors don't do that. There was certainly, you know, in the course of my reporting to just some interesting relationships between government of, you know, organizations and, you know, private land trust to, which is kind of a side and a side to that but I did find that interesting as well. But I wanted to turn to Erica because literally Pembroke Township became this kind of case study, right? I mean, not only did you guys help develop this sustainability plan, but I think Colorado State came out with kind of a snapshot or vignette on the area. I guess I'm wondering, Erica, I guess what lessons might have been learned on that might be applicable to other communities, in your opinion, and what could have been done better on the part of conservationists? Yeah, I think Sharon and Pam said it. The, you know, the cookies, the engagement is important. And I think one thing that I learned as a student first studying, you know, my first conservation course, they're like, this is a crisis discipline, we have to move fast, things are being lost. And that's true. You know, there is not much prairie left here in the prairie state and every time we lose remnant habitat, that's serious. But also, we've learned time and time again in our work and we've seen it that it's only successful conservation if the community around you is engaged and supportive. It's not a successful project, if that's not the case. You're not, everyone's not going to love you forever to a person, but you need to have the support of the community around you. That's always important and particularly important in a place like Pembroke, where people have really been stewarding the landscape. One thing that struck me, I started my work out west. And when I came to Pembroke, you know, people have fences maybe up by the road, but you get back to the center of the section, and there's no fence, you don't know whose property you're on. It's a connected landscape, which is an ecologist is an amazing thing. It's an amazing thing for wildlife, but it's also an amazing thing to see that connection that people had. And that's something that was highlighted in this piece and certainly Pem, I think he's one of the first people to talk to me about the importance of being invited to still use the landscape to still visit those places to collect as needed to ride horses, a trail network that connected things that that's really important. And, and that can, that's a slower process to develop that with a community, but it's a vitally important one. So, I think it's a bit about pacing. Pam and Sharon, I want to turn back to you all and kind of bring it up to speed. We've gone through a little bit of the history. And so, you know, as it currently stands, there's more than 2000 acres of land that are owned by conservationists now in Pembroke Township. You know, there's been limited transparency about the plans from, you know, the Nature Conservancy but they've given really no indication that they will stop buying land there. The government, the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service has recently released a draft about their funding now and their ability to be able to either acquire or protect land in a focus area that includes a large portion of Pembroke Township. I guess I want to just ask you all starting with Sharon, what do you foresee as the future of Pembroke Township? How do you see all of this shaken out? You know, time starts with no one. We have actually grown in the community. We have now, in our community, entrenched in our community, Hispanic population. And Hispanic population are rehabbing the homes, they're building homes, and they're putting an anchor into the community where maybe some of the African-Americans had displaced or left the community. So, I think it's going to be a little more difficult for Nature Conservancy and other organizations like that to get a foothold in our community because there are populations now that see the beauty of Pembroke, and they're holding on to those properties and they're purchasing the properties and they're making this their home. That is one of the things that Nature Conservancy did not want to see happen was that the community become a keeper foothold. We're getting natural gas, which will bring businesses and also will bring other families to Pembroke because now you have some of the same resources that you would have in other towns. And so that brings people to live in your communities, just having resources. You know, so those are the things and Nature Conservancy fought head and nail against natural gas. I was on one of those committees when we met with Nightcore. So, you know, they do not want to see the civilization that I would say to this place because it's harder when you have other people coming from other communities making roots here. These are educated people working people. It's hard to bamboozle people who have education to have more knowledge because they come from other communities and they know what type of amenities should be in that community. So they're against anything that's going to be progressive. So I think we might be able to save ourselves actually. Pam, how about you? You know, just with given the landscape and how it's changed but looking at the current set of circumstances and, you know, now the federal government potentially poised to buy more land and the Nature Conservancy. You know, it seems like their last purchase was in November of 2020, but things like seems like things are still kind of working themselves out. But I guess what do you foresee as the future of Pembroke Township? Well, the federal government has the money, and if federal government has their way, we'll be just like the Native Americans. I mean, they used to live here. But I think it's going to be harder, like with the community growing, more people coming into communities, people with money, if they buy out the land, they're going to have to spend for it now. Because the Hispanics are outspending the Nature Conservancy. That's probably why they're not buying as much land. I mean, they're running this land up. Yes. They're overpaying because they know the value of the land and they want to pay for their children and those type of people we want out here. People with families. I agree. You know, one of the interesting undercurrents that I found, you know, that I wanted to highlight, even though it was a little bit brief in the article, was the fact that, you know, just turning our attention to inclusivity in agriculture, right? You know, there's 27 million acres of farmland in Illinois. And yet, less than 19,000 belongs to black farmers or less than 19,000 are owned by black farmers. This is one of the few places that, you know, is kind of that where that concentration is. I guess I want to, you know, ask, you know, Pam and then also you Sharon, you know, we've heard from a state and a federal level. Officials saying that they want to help black farmers and yet, you know, various agencies at the state and federal level have also been very supportive of these controversial conservation efforts. I guess, what is your vision for, I guess, environmental or agricultural, you know, I guess, what is environmental justice look like in black farming towns? Like Pam, can I ask you that first? Okay, well my vision or my wish is that black farming towns, we treat it the same way as white farming towns, that they be respected. They be, that they get the funding that other communities get. But right now I don't see that happening. I mean, we do the right thing by protecting and respecting nature and we get punished. I mean, literally punished for it by having our land in our community taken. I don't see that happening. We have a long way to go. Sharon, I know that it's just a bit outside Pembroke, but you keep horses. I guess same thing for you. I guess, you know, given that there has been this statement of, you know, from on a federal and state level to help black farmers and ranchers. What is your vision for environmental justice and black farming towns like Pembroke? You know, I agree with Pam about the same programs that I know that in the other farming towns that are not African Americans, they have programs in their schools. You have to, you have to create the farmers. The ones who didn't grow up on farms, you have to create those farmers and you do that through your youth. In those schools, they have the four H's, they have all type of agriculture programs. They are creating the farmers in the grammar schools and the high schools. That's where it begins. I mean, it's difficult to create a farmer who's 30 years old, unless that's something they want to do. But it's known in research that you have to do it while you're young. And that's what they're doing. And that's what they're not doing here. We don't have those agriculture programs in our grammar school and in our high schools like they do. We don't have the financing like they do in those schools. And in the community where the farmers can get financing because, you know, underserved minorities and communities don't have the credit scores and don't have, you know, the same type of support network for financing to get these small farms and get the little hobby farms. So, I mean, those things need to be put in place before you're going to see growth in any type of underserved community like Pembroke. Oh, it just won't happen. I mean, you know, to get it in mass, it just won't happen. This is great. Well, I hate to cut you guys short, but I do want to make some time for all of our audience questions. We have a ton of great ones from everybody. And Erica, I'd like to start with you. So this comes from a person who they work for a white led conservation organization and they're wondering like what if anything they can do about co-workers who are reluctant to acknowledge or even learn about their role in maintaining the status quo of conservation culture. Basically their leaders they think they're supporting racial equity but their external external audience is disagree. I mean, that is a problem in a lot of industries and kind of conservation is definitely one of them. It's been documented that that history and that background and a lot of the even important founders of conservation. And I think one of the challenges is going to sound repetitive but that it's a slow process. It's not something that's fixed in one seminar. It's not something that's fixed with one hire for diversity. It's something that takes time and years and years and is sometimes a slower pace. And if you if your organization can't have those people in the room because you haven't made those hires, you can't afford those hires, then you have to talk to the community where you're working and you have to bring people in and sit with them and listen to that. And I think another part of it and a lot of organizations are doing this is investing in these youth programs like Sharon was talking about youth programs that train people to work in agriculture. Yeah, most people don't decide to make a mid career change in their 30s and take a massive pay cut to work in conservation. Something you have to do when you're young and we have to support people at those key transitions in their career. So like when you're going from high school to college and then that first job out of college, those internships in college that give you those connections so it's not just doing something with little kids. But that's really fun and everyone should do it. And actually that's happening in Pembroke there's this youth conservation core program for high school age youth to work in conservation and build some of those like even if they don't go into conservation and build some of those like resume skills, those like having difficult conversations with adult skills that are important for all of our work. Thank you. Also just want to reiterate to all of you that if you just click the Q&A icon at the bottom of the screen, you can type your questions to us. Pam and Sharon I think this would be a good one for you. This is another person who works for a conservation organization. They're the largest landowner in their state and they're in the process of acquiring more and they're grappling with how to do this in a culturally responsible way. They ask like is this even possible are there any suggestions that you could recommend or pitfalls we could avoid. Well, you know, the answer that I think we go back to did you did you knock on the doors and give the cookies. You know, I mean, you won't know your neighbors unless you go to the door say hey, this is what we're doing. Okay, are there some issues you have with us. What can we do to make this happen. You know, just, you know, you just talk to people. You may not get the response you want but you get a response. And it's up to you to try to work it out. You know, and I mean that will be the first step, I would say is that given the cookies. And I think, well, I don't think that's the first step I think the first step is to examine your intentions. What do you intend to do for or to this community. Why are you there. Because that's the question we've been asking all these years why are they here. So why are they there. If I can add to what Pam said. Yeah, it's looking at the assets that the community feels that they have. I know as a conservationist I'm like okay where are the most oak trees. I value that. And that's important to me but it's also important to me like what what is the community value and Pembroke actually they also value those trees. But you know understanding what people in the community value and can you bring something to that can through your conservation work. I've sat with many, many people in a room and asked them about their values and many, I think sometimes we think that oh people don't care about people do care about nature they also need things to live like jobs, and yes, and roads and futures for their kids. And so, making your conservation work part of that is incredibly important. I think sometimes we feel like we got to be a little sneaky squirrel and go in so that, like land prices are good or something. And that that's important because conservation budgets aren't infinite, but it doesn't work if it makes people angry at you. Can I say one more thing about the conservation. I just think it's amazing that conservationists and people are like, come to communities like a Pembroke, and just assume that we don't like nature. We hear because of nature. I mean, you can live in a city, or you can live in a rural area. People choose rural areas probably 90% of the time, because they like nature, because that's what's here. So I think there's a lot of assumptions that we don't appreciate nature we don't like the birds, you know, I just thought that was kind of amazing just to even have a conversation like, Well, we're here to save nature because you guys not really liking nature. You know, that's kind of an insult in a lot of communities and they feel that when you someone comes knocking on doors and we're conservation we all conserve the property that you're living on for five generations. You know, just the, or that we're here because we're stuck here. And we have no other place to go. Yeah, you want to be here. Exactly. That's every community in rural areas. I've never met a rural area person that did not want to be there. If they there, you know what I mean. So, so I just thought that was a few. A few people asked, we're curious to know like, why the nature Conservancy went to Pembroke to begin with like what did they see that was valuable there and Tony perhaps you could speak to. Yeah, like why, why did they choose Pembroke. Well, you know, plans were beginning to be drafted for a large scale national wildlife refuge by the US Fish and Wildlife Service. I think in the late 90s. And so the, the Nature Conservancy was actually a partner on that because they had 7,000 some odd acres across the border in Indiana. And so the idea was to merge these kind of two areas to make a by state, you know, you know, collective national wildlife refuge and conservation area, both with public and private land so the US Fish and Wildlife Service and the Nature Conservancy would be working in tandem. You know, there was a lot of public pushback and Indiana Congressman, then in turn ended up blocking, you know, federal funding for this. And then without public announcement, you know, the Nature Conservancy began buying land, shortly thereafter in Pembroke. And I, from what I understand just from talking with other conservationists is that, you know, there were other wildlife surveys, both the state level, and then there were, you know, there was the federal, you know, wildlife, you know, refuge scope that you know, some folks, you know, quite literally said that they were using as a template to find where the highest quality, you know, natural habitats there, what, you know, in their opinion, has the highest quality sandy oak savannas that are in need of protection are very rare in the state of Illinois. And so it is my belief that, you know, the state surveys kind of served as a template for high priority areas for the Nature Conservancy. Yes, that's true. And then we started this this event and talking about different threats to black land ownership and one listener asks, you know, I was wondering if, you know, maybe a larger problem here is a corporation like corporate farms moving in and buying up land and I was wondering if, yeah, Tony, if you came across this in your reporting or if Pam and Sharon you could speak to this like, if we're if we're weighing the threats like of conservation versus, you know, these corporate farms like how do those compare against each other. I think Pam might know more about the farm. They don't they really they don't compare. They really don't compare because of the farmers. They create a product. I mean, they pay low taxes and the conservation pay low taxes but they actually create a creative, create a creative project, a product. And now my taxes are the same rate as the corporate farmers corporate farmers. Just just a little history that corporate farmers used to own the land that we're on. And they sold it to black people because they can couldn't farm it they thought it was worthless. So that's how we got the land for some of the land. I mean, as we start working the land and growing the crops to the kinds of crops that we grew it enrich the land now they just trying to get it back. That's what I'm seeing. I'll take you back on those comments by Pam by saying the reason that we wrote the story the way in the way that we did was because you know private conservationists and the federal government really had the intentions of buying up thousands of acres of land. I don't think that there are any commercial farmers that have come out and said hey we want to bar buy up large segments of Pembroke Township. The thing is that over the decades, certainly as I mentioned at the top of the of the show that, you know, they have commercial farmers and real estate speculators encroached on black land in the same way. I think that the kind of counter argument not to lend them any kind of credences that they still pay taxes and like Pam says, in the case of commercial farmers, maybe they create jobs maybe they they produce a revenue or a product. It's it becomes more of a tax issue but the thing is, is that you know these private conservationists and some, you know, standpoints are also considered themselves charities so I guess, you know, if they're buying it, you know, things like tax sale. You know that that also raises another, you know, ethical dilemma is it okay for, you know, commercial farmers or real estate speculators to do it. Is that also okay for a charity to do that. But I think that the large farmers when they buy land and I look I look at the these, they usually buy something that adjourning them, you know, next to them. So they're buying for expansion to expand their farm just like when I buy property, I buy property for expansion, if I can get it from my property I think Sharon you've done the same thing you bought property for expansion. Yeah, and you know, truthfully, a lot of the farmers, when I was a time supervisor, they, they help mow the grass, you know what they clear the ditches. You know, they they've always worked with the community, Hofstra and all them they they never was outside of the community, even though they were big enough to be considered corporate. And they just enhance the community. And like you said, they do they do hire they they donate money for the kids and that kind of thing. Part of the community, they're not doing something that's trying to hurt the community. They came to a lot of the meetings with what we have with the field museum to see what was going on. So, you know, I think they're a different animal, yes, they are purchasing some lands like said to increase but actually, they probably have to start decreasing some of their, their agriculture processing and Pembroke. So, you know what, that is another fight that's not the fight of, you know, where we concern about nature conservancy because they pass those farms over to their kids who want it. And then if you come to approach them and say hey, you're not going to fire anymore, can we buy some of the property they they talk to you. You know, it's not the same as someone just coming and purchasing and have a plan where you don't know what the plan is. And if the plan is to basically genocide your community. And that is the word, because that's what's going to happen and that's has been happening to our community. And then it just that's the way it is. And then the small farmers here on a first name basis with most of the corporate. That's correct, but in all square, but in all fairness they do get all the funding. Well, we're, we're about another time but I just want to conclude with one question. So for public we're all about accountability and one one reader asks, you know, do you have do any of you have any ideas on like how you might begin to hold the nature conservancy and others like them accountable. And to be curious, you know, feel free to chime in whoever I think I think what they do that they say that the the folks in on the black farmers and but I think that they they say what they think that people want to hear. I don't think you can hold them accountable because as long as the federal government is backing them I really don't think we can. But what they do or what they promise to do and don't do. I mean, they, they say those things but they know that they have the government federal government behind them. So actually, their power is unbound that there's nothing they can't do who's who's has to stick to Sam. Tell them no you can't do it all the way we can do that we need a federal government and the federal government is saying go ahead and do it. So, you know, that that's the bully. He, you know, he's not going to be punished. Well, that's a great. I can say I mean I think it's. I think this is a story about moving slow and building something that's different than what other conservation groups look what other conservation landscapes look like I mean we've spent. The last year working with landowners to build a plan for what does it look like in 50 years when you to keep your land to stay on the land what is that generational change look like that was he talked about in his in her article. How does land stay in the family if that's the goal for the next generation and continue that ethic of conservation. You know I don't, I don't like the dichotomy between Pembroke residents and conservationists because Pembroke residents have been conservationists for a long time. And I see that ethic in the community all the time so it's really about building a landscape that cares about the birds, the wildlife and the people that live there. That's what that's what everyone on this call is talked about doing. So how does that get those going forward, no matter who the players are on landscape. I think that what needs to be conserved is the culture of Pembroke and the people of Pembroke. I think that's important because the reasons this community is the way it is because the people live with nature. We're not outside. We're not outsiders. We live here with nature. Well that's a great place to end. I want to thank you all so much for this really wonderful conversation. Thank you Tony, Lizzie, Pam, Sharon and Erica. We have a very nuanced conversation about a complex story and I appreciate all of your thoughtful responses. I also want to thank our audience for joining us today. And finally thanks to Chris for partnering with us and to McKinsey and Company for their support. So again a recording of this event will be sent to everyone who registered. And from all of us at ProPublica, thank you so much for joining us and have a great rest of your evening.