 Union, what's happening with human rights around our world on Think Tech Live, broadcasting from our downtown studio on Honolulu, Hawaii, and Moana, Ndulyakia. I'm your host, Joshua Cooper. The title of today's episode is Unwavering Unity for Ukraine and the World, Strong Solidarity and Strategic Solutions. Joining me today is Alex as the Amnesty International country specialist. Alex, thank you so much time for appearing with us today on this important historic day regarding the war in Ukraine. There is mine, Joshua. Thank you so much for having me on. Today is crucial because at this point, we have the ICJ, the International Court of Justice, which is the principal judicial organ of the UN ordering Russia to immediately halt its military operations in Ukraine and announcing the ICJ order to do so as legally binding. Of course, this order was made as a preliminary measure in a case that Ukraine lodged at the ICJ under the genocide convention in response to the Russian invasion on February 24th. Any initial comments on that, especially as Kiev is under a 35-hour curfew right now? Yes, of course. The decision just recently came up and I appreciate you measuring that. It's a historic decision indeed. The court clearly stated that it found no sign of what President Putin has been calling the genocide in Ukraine. And with that, so one of the major excuses for his invasion that is off the table, the Russian invasion is unprovoked and based on a fake. So this is now a cold fact, I would say established by ICJ, it's very important. No, and really the other important point today was really two aspects. Two world leaders talking to the world about the state of the world, more importantly about the future. Zelensky addressed Congress just this morning in DC where you're at and he spoke about for three weeks, every day, every night, Ukraine experienced a Pearl Harbor and a 9-11 with thousands of millions missiles bombing their beautiful cities and calling to end the terrorizing of their people. Tosha, your right that today is the 21st day of the brutal attack by Russia to Ukraine, but today is not, but the war has been around for eight years now. And at the sentiment that we have noticed, we have seen today on the Hill and also in White House did reflect at the general opinion both in Kiev and here in Washington DC, which is that Russia has been engaging in unjustified world crimes in Ukraine. There are compelling facts that Russia is not a set of targeting Ukraine armed forces but is targeting civilians. And what the president Zelensky, Ukrainian president was trying to pitch, if I can say if you want, here in Washington was, hey, we gotta defend ourselves. The general sentiment is that if Russia stops shooting, that means the war will stop. If Ukraine stopped shooting, that means there will be no Ukraine left. And that's why Ukraine is trying to, like I said, like pitch international solidarity and also is trying to gain access to the tools that they need, Ukrainians need to defend themselves. And unfortunately, at this point, even the circumstances are response, international community response can't go beyond some certain level. And we have seen president Biden also made a speech and he also announced a new assistance to Ukraine and that also reflects, like I said, the sentiment here in Washington and also in European captains. Yes, and Zelensky did call for a united for peace or a U-24 aimed at quickly mobilizing military, financial and humanitarian support to keep the peace and to quickly save the world to save lives. And his final message was to Biden where he said, you're the leader of the nation. I wish you to be the leader of the world, to be the leader of the world needs to be the leader of peace. So what do you think of this U-24? Was it received well? And what are some of the aspects that people are considering now going forward? I appreciate a flag question. I think to understand the bigger picture here, we need to turn back, I can mention that the war did not start now. Just because Russia, which is the largest country, biggest country in the world, has been able to invade into the biggest country in Europe for years and been able to get away with it. It wants to believe and us to believe that there's some sort of territorial dispute between the two countries. That's not true, right? Ukraine, along with other post-Soviet countries, have been recognized by the international community within its territorial integrity. And Russia was also among those who have recognized Ukraine for years. And now President Putin also wants you to believe that he had no choice but to invade because of NATO angle and NATO, and that he feels that he is threatened by this defensive organization. And that comes down to the fact that Ukraine is not turning NATO in the near future. And you have seen the world leaders said as much over and over. We also heard lately just this morning from the Secretary General also reflecting that particular fact that besides President Putin's demand was largely seen as a non-starter by the West and because NATO's open door policy since sovereign countries can choose their own security alliances alone. Now, come to the question again, the most important component to this story is the Ukrainian people, wonderful, wonderful people that President Putin never got to understand. He hasn't been to Ukraine for many years. Ukrainians want to live in an open, rules-based society, but that's something that Putin cannot accept because how else can you explain it to your own people? He feels threatened by this avenue because Ukrainians and Russians have shared history in the same neighborhood and now he has to explain to his own people. I hope to ask you a question, but this comes down again to my earlier point that Putin is so keenly focused on saving his power and this is all about his fear of rules-based democracy on his border. And what the Ukrainian president is asking today and also that's what the White House seems to have protected today is that we have to do our best to make sure that Ukrainian people are able to be capable to protect themselves because there is no end game here from Russia's perspective. I mean, if they commit Ukraine to not, let's say, turn towards the West, then who else is the next? Russia is gonna go to other neighbors and the notion that superpower was nuclear weapons arms can actually in the 21st century attack its neighbors. It does actually take us to a different and more dangerous world that we had. Very true. That's probably why the prime ministers of Poland, Czech Republic and Slovenia even took a train into Kiev yesterday to show solidarity. They recognized exactly what you said that while it's today, Ukraine tomorrow could easily be their countries and pointing out where would it stop. And maybe that's why Zelensky was saying maybe World War three has already begun and that these are the first acts. But as you have said, there's been consistent actions of Putin over the time where he actually has, like you said, in Crimea, but also there's patterns of even bombing civilian targets and hospitals in various conflicts throughout time. So this is a pattern of Putin really committing war crimes and aggression against his neighbors over a certain time. But this is maybe the first time that a country is really standing up for itself determination. The only missing part here is missing angle here is the Ukrainian people, you know, unfortunately that the present nature of, these attacks had devastating, horrific consequences to entire country. Over the last 21 days, Russian army has bombed residential apartment buildings. You can see, I may see statements on, we have very compelling statements indicating that it has bombed sacred burial grounds and shelled kindergartens, orphanages, deliberately the hospitals. Even we can see there are reports out there that they have been shelling Holocaust memorial complex and then reports about explosions in and around near the capital city of Kiev, coming even now, as we speak, that they have spurred mass hunger and have caused so many to flee their homes. There are about three millions of people, I'm three millions in 21st century, in just 21 days, that's the cost of this war. The latest, you know, your estimates that, you know, they're marching towards, you know, as three million, but numbers can actually become, it's somewhere between five and 10 millions. So many countries that you have named, they have opened their borders, their hearts to Ukrainian people, they opened their homes to those feeling Ukraine. But the question that we need to answer is, what is the end game here? Again, Ukraine cannot join NATO, we get that, but, you know, that is not what we'll bother putting, you know? If you take, you know, close look at his statements, you know, he started talking about NATO's borders somewhere like between, you know, to turn back to between 19, I think, 98, 997 level, which means it also targets several, you know, current NATO members, is the NATO, the only entity that Boris Putin, you know, he, and, you know, the people around him have to talk about the European Union. You know, as you have noticed that some European leaders have been in Kiev, but they also visited Moscow for, you know, even before, you know, Russian army across the border, was put in genuine open for being talked out. So that is the question that we came to understand that needs to be answered, unfortunately the answer is not yes at this point. So it's a really important point, because if you look at the attack on the maternity ward and the bombing of Mariupol, unfortunately it's a similar pattern in Chechnya from 1999 to 2000, where they destroyed or damaged several hospitals in the capital of Bosnia, also in Syria, when he joined the Assad regime and bombing and launching missile attacks against hospitals located in the opposition-controlled areas. So even the sadder part is when they started moving the hospitals underground in caves and they used the bunker buster bombs. So really we understand that this is a long-term pattern and more must be done, that there was diplomacy efforts by world leaders going to Moscow, but you can highlight as you've raised and how amnesty has documented throughout this entire 21 days, the conflict and more importantly, those human rights violations taking place by the Putin regime. I miss international has been on the ground so we have, you know, we have folks working both in Ukraine and also this around the country is amnesty. Russia office also has been around, you know, and we have members that, you know, empower us and all over the country in the US, in Europe, they have been galvanized, you know, their efforts and trying to understand, you know, all possible tools that, you know, we can use at this point to respond. This, you know, increasing, you know, I would say the massive, massive human rights concern that is happening, believe me. No, it is exciting though to see how everyday people are stepping up with Eastern European volunteers leaving strollers at train stations for the arriving Ukrainian refugee families who fled only with their essentials. Those photos at the train station show that we can all do more. Also, Chef Andres with the world central kitchen serving meals and it really brings for a moment a lesson that we all need to visit more far-flung places to identify with people in other countries because there is that sense of we're all in this together because we have to stand up for fundamental freedoms but also as Zelensky said today for the future. And it is amazing to see just example of the Dutch. They have just 17 million people but they've already raised 125 million in a single day just on Monday of this week. You know, I totally agree with you. You know, this is like I said, this is the war over freedom. You know, you can people have chosen freedom and they wanna live in rules based society. Russia, like I said, being the largest country in the world is not acting like a responsible actor here just because, you know, they've been able to get away with it. As you mentioned, Chechnya, I can even bring up Georgia and other examples for many years. Doesn't mean that, you know, the world should turn its blind eyes and let this happen on our watch. So you're right that, you know, so many people from European countries, I was at the border just last week, I actually went there even before the war broke and I saw people, you know, from different countries across the border, like in Poland, just voluntarily would offer their service, you know, their homes and they open their hearts and they try to respond. There's, you know, there's an international, you know, international community that we've been talking about for many years, but finally, we see that, you know, how in reality is galvanized, you know, by, you know, again, thanks to Putin's, President Putin's, you know, decision to challenge, again, rule space and the world that we live in is right now, you know, responsible, active responsibly and understands that, again, this is the moment for us to, again, stop this from going even further catastrophe because what's happening right now in Ukraine and around Ukraine is a catastrophe, 21st century catastrophe. This is not a 20th, 19th century dictator that, you know, tries to, you know, take over and move on. What Putin and his folks have done in, and in Chechnya as you mentioned and in Syria indicates that, you know, you know, unfortunately things might become really messy before they get there. It's true. It's a global game that you can see he's playing and also an action of what he does inside the country to deny those human rights and information. And I mean, the sad part is you almost would say there's, you wake up in Russia, news media has been silenced, almost gone, but it was exciting to see the editor Marina actually be so brave to stand up and to hold the sign for no war and let that the state-controlled media was lying to the people and calling for an interwar. It is people inside Russia who are standing up against the new laws being passed to try to silence them and even people holding just blank signs with nothing on it as well. Maybe you can highlight some of those aspects of what's going on inside with human rights being violated, even the rule that 15 years in prison for newscasts such as this, what are some other aspects that the world needs to be aware of? Russia has a history of gross human rights violations inside the country. And you're right that, you know, what happened just with me in fact, you know, Memorial Organization a couple of weeks ago was a clear fact that, you know, President Putin is trying to rewrite the history, you know, that he imagines, he understands and uses as a pretext to drive these human rights violations beyond its border. What we're witnessing is transnational human rights, gross human rights violations that as you perfectly mentioned that it did study in Russia, in Russia community was, you know, we did document, you know, those human rights violations in Russia and, but unfortunately, you know, again, he has been able to get away with it. You know, he has been able to convince the Russian people and himself, most importantly, you know, to a wrong history. He believes in, you know, his own lies, unfortunately. You know, what Memorial Organization was doing in Russia was documenting those dark years of Russian Soviet history, you know, what Russians back then did inside, you know, within Russia and also outside of Russia. The reason why Putin was going after those folks is that because, you know, he wanted to fall, you know, again, like I said, not only press the wrong lesson of the history, you know, thinking that, you know, the alternative to that is probably will be people will not learn a lesson from history, but unfortunately, you know, I'm being asked to him, alternative to not learning the right lesson of the history is learning the wrong lesson of the history and that's the consequences we are seeing right now. People in Russia, unfortunately, they have, you know, there are really wonderful, wonderful Russians that for many years have been trying to push back, raise their voices and, but they have been a subject to not only, you know, again, gross human rights violation inside the country, they've also been subject to, you know, something that we call transnational, you know, human rights violation, transnational repression. Now, Putin is, Putin and his administration, they're trying to export, you know, the human rights violations, gross human rights violations from the region as you can see right now to Ukraine and to other countries. Yes, and it begins there. What is exciting to see also is the resistance. Just one week ago, the key of classic symphony orchestra actually played at the same central square in the Maidan, which was at focal point of the revolution, and they played a concert there showing their strength through music. And this 25 minute concert was, of course, in freezing weather, nationally televised. I was excited to say, show how they're still unafraid, even with the bombs flying. And of course, it's that spirit that they're saying. And that I think was also brought up by Jamala, who also is now in Istanbul, who won a contest for Eurovision, and she was pointing out how history is repeating itself. But I think we can see that there's a new trend where people are actually standing up for the values of human rights, these universal values, and also standing up for what we think should be done. And maybe you could share some of what you saw since you were there, of course, just at the border a week ago and how people are standing up for their human rights. Here are the two components here, how to help those who are inside the country and trying to get out as soon as they can. And they have life to live behind. And unfortunately, Russian forces don't even allow them to leave their neighborhoods. There are several corridors that have been negotiated with Russian forces lately. And when people try to use those corridors to leave, Russians deliberately, Russian forces are targeting them and killing them, unfortunately. We've heard several numbers from Ukrainian government and international organizations. And at this point, I've seen so many creative ways, also people outside of Ukraine are trying to use to help them with what they can financially support them. For instance, I've seen people using Airbnb, trying to book apartments, assuming that eventually those apartments, even if they don't visit Ukraine, but people, the owners of the apartments are able to have access to the funding. That's one thing. Another thing, obviously, there are humanitarian organizations and they are on the ground and they're trying to use, they're trying to reach a humanitarian aid. But again, like I said, for those who are inside Ukraine, for them, the situation is different. Sometimes even international organizations can't find a safe way to reach to Ukrainian people with an aid. And for those who have left the country, obviously we talk about millions of people and they need your emotional support, your support, financial, I mean, look, this is the largest, the massive humanized catastrophe that Europe has faced since the end of Second World War. And obviously, it cut everyone off guard. I mean, even if we did see this coming, we didn't want to believe in this coming. Ukrainian people were not expecting that. Look, if you turn back and think about Ukrainians and Russians and their shared history, and the night that the President Putin was trying to push for years, it completely contradicts against what we are seeing on the region right now. Putin was saying that Ukrainians are our cousins and we need to live together, even to live together. So we have shared history. But today, he's sharing, he's sending his arms and he's killing his own cousins. And this is hard to comprehend. They do need all kinds of support. Anything that international community can do, first of all, he and the US try to reach out to your own congressional members and electoral officials, try to make sure that we are using all the possible tools at our disposal to be there for them. Secondly, again, they are humanitarian organizations, international organizations, organizations like Amnesty. We have launched campaigns, we're sending out layers to Ukraine ambassador, pardon me, Russian ambassador and Russian Defense Ministry and trying to raise awareness and trying to again make sure that they do see international backlash. There is no alternative, let's say history or reality or facts that Putin wants us to live in. There's international community is right now by understanding that the history, that the work we used to live in, even 21 days ago is long gone. So how are we gonna reestablish our new world is up to us. So we all need to do our best to make sure that the Ukrainian people don't feel alone. And this is not their fight for Ukraine. This is their fight for all of us, for Europe, for democracies, for freedoms, for human rights, for our future. If we just let this, if we let President Putin's slide and other slide, by committing these gross human rights violations, then I can't even imagine, the world we're going to live in, how it's gonna be and how other dictators and authoritarian leaders will try to take their own lesson, wrong lesson and will try to steal our rules-based lifestyle and our future as well. It's true, it's, you could see the decline of democracy people have been talking about for decades since around 2005 on the Freedom Index. But it has been exciting to see some changes. I think corporations with over 300 companies withdrawing to condemned aggression, the calorie curtain of Coke and McDonald's falling on Russia. What we need to see now, since they can't buy a Big Mac in Moscow or book a room at a Hilton, is which one of these firms are more of a PR point or a political one. But I know we only have one minute left. I really also want you to know that here in Hawaii, the lay of aloha for world peace is partnering with many places as well with aloha for Ukraine and people around the world are focusing, as you pointed out, that there's a way that we want the world to be that is rooted in the rule of law with a rules-based order where every nation large and small is free and able to exercise its right of self-determination. And I wanna thank you for all that you're doing with Amnesty International, documenting and sharing with the world the truth of what's happening on the ground. Thank you so much for all you do. And this is, again, the situation on the ground is depressing as it is, shockiness of what we have seen today is very much difficult to process. So thank you so much for helping the US audience and everyone's watching to at least understand what is going on and thank you for your coverage. Thank you so much for watching Think Tech Hawaii. If you like what we do, please like us and click the subscribe button on YouTube and the follow button on Vimeo. You can also follow us on Facebook, Instagram, Twitter and LinkedIn and donate to us at thinktechhawaii.com. Mahalo.