 Tonight on Plus Politics we discuss the aftermath of the 2023 elections and the role civil societies played in determining the outcome of the polls. This is Plus Politics. My name is Nyam Ghul. I guide you. The 2023 presidential election has come and gone because the memory still lingers. It has not come and gone I beg your pardon. If there are lessons to pick in this whole quagmire it must be that things may not go as planned irrespective of what technology, innovation or level of automation is used for the elections in Nigeria. While civil society have done enormous work improving the electoral act to compensate for electronic involvement in the polls there seem to be too much padding on the actual effect the election had on Nigerians. This might be a time for civil society to be wary. If there is ever an opportunity to reform Nigeria's electoral system comprehensively it is now. After the enormous positives from 2015 that showed progress it is evident that regression is possible if our voices aren't loud enough or if we cuddle with the institution just to protect our access. One must acknowledge the shared bravery of Nigerians excited to be part of the electoral season that would lead to a new Nigeria. While the final voter participation rate of 27% falls below the standard the current statistics also calls for further cleanup of the voter register and intensified voter education towards fuller participation in future elections. While joining us live to discuss this is Adenike Alaba, Program Director, Managing Editor, Data Fied and Jude Ohanele, Program Director, Development Dynamics. Lady and gentlemen welcome to the program. Thank you for having me. Thank you very much. Okay, let's start with the ladies first, Adenike. Let's have your assessment of the 2023 elections beginning from the presidential to the governorship elections. Okay, I've started from a very high place. Assessment has become something hotly contested in the last couple of weeks following the elections. Varying thoughts, varying agreements on how the elections have handout. But I mean it is clear that there are several things that need to be adjusted. It is clear that Nigeria still has quite a ways to go with conducting elections. The burning question of everyone sleeps and I feel like the thing that people typically, there's some sense, there's a binary sense in which we have been assessing this elections over the last couple of weeks. It's either it was good or it was bad. It was great. Yes, we elected the president. Yes, we've elected governors or it was bad. Let's start over again. I'm not in any of those binary positions. The elections should be dumped in a dustbin because it was bad. But I also know that there's room for, there's a lot of room for improvement. You mentioned something in your opening statement about the voter register there. The voter turnout in this election has been hotly contested. Oh, it was it low, but people came out to vote. But the reality is that we, it's almost a mood point to begin to debate whether this was real voter turnout when our voter register itself needs a lot of work. A lot of cleanup. A lot of review. It is hard to have conversations about the role of technology in elections given the challenges that we had with IREF during the presidential election. So there were good points. There were, I mean, just the amount of noise and excitement around the elections was a good one. But are we there? Are we in the place where we're like, yes, we've gotten it. Let's move forward. No, there's still a whole lot to do, a whole lot of reviews. And what I'm hoping will be a whole lot of lessons taken from these elections that we can take forward and use to adjust to tweak to review coming elections in the coming years. Okay, let me go to Jude as well. Let me have your own review. I'm talking to you this way because this is the first time I have met you after the election. Let's just try to get what you feel about what happened on the 25th of March and of February, sorry, and then March 18 as well. Can you hear me, Jude? Yes, I will. Can you hear me? Okay, the reality of the elections we had this year has actually shown that regression in any democratic experiment is a reality. You know, a few major issues based on our observation of the election, the citizens did very well. If you like the positive, the citizens were very excited, very enthusiastic, willing to come out and do their best to believe that the process can be better than it used to be. That is the positive in that election. But unfortunately, the election management body, INEC, totally disappointed the people. The whole belief that at the end of the day, the results generated from the polling unit will be able to be determined real time, clear to everybody. Using the Beaver Pass and the IRA did not happen. And that has really made a total mess of the entire effort towards the 23 elections. And as you noted, a lot of excitement and a lot of commitment of the citizenry to this election was actually anchored on this reality. Because we are all here, we've all been in the country. The challenge has been the missing link between the polling unit and the final result collected. And that was why it took a long time for civil society and all of us involved in it to advocate for an improvement in this process in ways where after every election, beyond the winning party and INEC, other stakeholders can as well come and stick out their neck and say, this election is free, is fair, is credible. We thought we'd have had that opportunity, but INEC disappointed the entire nation and the world at large. So essentially, because of what happened on the 25th, where results couldn't be uploaded real time, people were in the dark as to what was going on. And up to date, nobody has said clearly what happened. But it's quite obvious that it was a human failure rather than a machine failure. That now gave the political entrepreneurs opportunity to further mess up the process on the 18th. We saw what happened. So the level of violence was escalated. We had a lot more suppression of votes across the country because it became clear that the deliverables are no longer on the table, that the hopes have been lost. And of course, a lot of the citizens also didn't even bother to come out on the 18th based on the data that are available. So it gives you an idea that this 2023 election was actually a huge missed opportunity for this country to have moved in a very powerful, positive force forward. And it's very regrettable and unfortunately we're expecting resignations from INEC for this colossal film. We've not seen any yet. And that's a sign of the level of lack of, you know, clear reality of what is on the ground that we have in the country. Okay. We'll go into specifics talking about the things that need to be treated a little bit like Nikke said earlier on. But first of all, let me try to, or let us try to get a picture of what the activities of civil society were like before the elections. Let's get to have that insight into the kind of things that civil society organizations were doing, apart from the fact that we got the electoral act and so many other little things that people thought would be applied and this election was going to be very, very free and fair. But other things were you doing before the election so that when we understand this, we know where we are going after now. So let me start with you again. Let me come back to you rather than Nikke. Okay. I mean, there was a lot of voter education that was happening at the civil society level. A lot of conversations amongst partners, a lot of stakeholder building, coalition building to make sure that there were eyes on this election to make sure that not only were their eyes on the election, but there's awareness that there's eye on this election. You know, pulling people together, explaining the things that they should be looking out for in the elections, explaining how the beavers works, explaining how IRF works, trying to help. You know, I was on Plus TV, I remember I recall before the election saying, look, INEX communication has been poured through this election process and well, the election shows they've not disappointed us in that wise. But I think civil society did quite a lot of work trying to bridge that communication gap. Did we do enough? Was it enough? Did we communicate broadly, widely across everyone, across every stakeholder block, across from the elite to the grassroots? Maybe there's a lot more work that needs to be done. And like I have maintained through this election process that one of the missing opportunities, time and time again with election cycles is the thought that an engaged citizenry is simply a citizenry that votes. An engaged citizenry is a citizenry that engages from point A to the very last. That's an engaged citizenry, which means they vote, but they also stay on their working as governance process is ongoing. So is there room for civil society to explore voter education for driving accountability and transparency, which are the real hallmarks, almost like if elections is the fulcrum on which democracy runs. Accountability, transparency are the pillars that make it stand. So yes, there's a lot of room for ensuring that we maintain engagement through this process. And personally for me, this is why I can't wait for the noise around all the elections to move on because there's a lot more to watch. This is the period where we should be setting agenda for whoever, I mean the new administration setting an agenda, putting out the markers. The things that we are going to watch, taking out all the manifestos and all the talk and marking and asking, okay, is this happening? This is the time to do that. So yes, civil society played a critical role. And I dare say even on elections, they as much as challenging as it was to get real time underground information, especially because of the challenges that happened with IREF. Civil society did significant was using civic technology to power access to data. I think that if you ask organizations like Datafight that had elections dashboard, organizations like Budget, Stairs that had elections dashboard, doing the hard work of making sure that as election results were coming in, as activities were happening at various polling units that the people were aware. It was really painful and sad that a number of citizens started almost blaming civil society for some of the results that were being shared for their hard work of pushing out elections data as it was coming in. It was really sad because that was blood and sweat, trying to make sure that there was some access to information, some access, some sense of what is happening. So yes, civil society did a lot of work. They invested a lot and especially proud of the collaborations that came out during the elections period because it was obvious that one person was obviously not going to be able to make sure everything was happening. And we saw civil society build coalitions, collaborations to power civic education, to power access to information, access to data. Is there room to improve, to do better, to reach more people, to make sure that all of that work does not simply die down when election dies down. Yes, there's a lot of room to make sure that we have a truly engaged citizenry. But I think civil society did quite some work during the elections period. Okay. Well, Jules, in an attempt to also highlight some of the achievements, if you permit, of the civil society, I'd like to also know what the challenges were. Things that you can look at, because like Nikke said, it could have been better than this, even though it was good, but it could have been better than this. So what are some of these challenges, especially those challenges that the people themselves, the citizenry themselves can key into and make sure that it comes off better next time. What are the challenges that you faced? Well, looking at this election very objectively, it's very difficult to really pick out challenges on the side of the citizen or the electorate and the voters. You know, because the basic level, the basic standard on which you will now begin to talk about the participation of the citizens, whether it could have some improvement or not, was not met. You are aware that people turned out to vote and in various locations across the country, the electoral materials couldn't get to them and they didn't vote. You know, I mean, there is no way you are going to blame those people who took time to come out to vote. And like my sister said, a lot of voter education and a lot of civic education that happened prior to the election contributed to people believing in this process. Of course, alongside the improvement in the electoral act, and people came out to vote. And usually because of the way they also stretch it, the job of INEC is very, very simple if you want to break it down. Basically, to move electoral materials to the polling units with their personnel to have the citizens vote. And you know, after voting now with the way it has evolved, it is actually the citizens that count the votes for themselves. Then the results recorded and then transmitted either manually or digitally. That is the basic job of INEC beyond every other thing they are talking about and they are engaging in. And there is no way you are going to begin to look at the side of the citizens when this basic, most basic job hasn't been done and was not done on the 25th and got worsened on the 18th of March. You know, because the people came out to vote, I don't know what else you are going to tell them. For communities that waited at their polling unit from 8 a.m. until 1 p.m. and they saw nobody on the left. I mean, nothing can be better. There is no greater sacrifice than patriotism. And as we speak, a lot of them, nobody has told them what happened, no explanation and all that. So when it comes to this... Hello, Jude, can you hear me? We seem to have lost the audio from Jude O'Hanneler, right? And then the security agencies that messed up the situation and how the citizens... Okay, Jude, your audio seems to be breaking. We are hoping that you will rejoin us and continue that line of thought that you had there. But let me come back to Nikkei. You raised the point that I wanted you to talk about. You said it was not actually 100% that you had. You could have done more. And I'm just wondering, because if you go into another election cycle, apart from what you're supposed to do within now, but if you go into another voter education, what can you do differently? What should be done differently or in addition to what you've already been doing so that the voter education can be better? Than it was for the 2023 elections. Okay, so let me pick it up from where Mr. O'Hanneler stopped sort of just leapfrog off something that he said about the voters being disillusioned and being pained by the outcome of the election to say that disillusionment is okay, but we can't stay there. So we can't say over disillusioned with this, the country continues to exist. And the form and nature of his existence is very reliant on an engaged citizenry. So I will go back and say, you see development is connected. Development is highly connected. For instance, it was during the elections, I think in fact post the presidential elections that we started having conversations started interrogating INEX budget and what they were doing with INEX budget. There has been conversations over and over again before now that talked about just the state of policing in the country and how many policemen we have. And I know and I don't want to stoke any emotions by talking about the performances of the security sector, essentially the police during the elections. But the reality is we don't have nearly enough policemen to effectively police our state. That's the thing. If we come to elections and we're complaining agitated by the outcome, if we have not paid attention, done a lot more advocacy. And I'm not talking about advocacy that is driven by civil society and the select elite. I'm saying advocacy that is people driven. And the only way advocacy can be people driven is if those people are aware. And it's understandable for instance when we talk about INEX budget, a lot of Niger, even though organizations like ours analyze the budget, we brought it out and say, hey, this is how much INEX spending on this, on this. But the reality is a lot of people did not know. So this is where I'm saying that voter education has to be end to end. This is where we can do better. This is where we can make sure that, look, there's an opportunity here to say, if you don't want to see what you saw in 2023 elections, well, then you have to pay attention to a lot more things. You have to pay attention to INEX activities from the beginning. We all remember INEX every four years. But what does INEX do in the lead-up to elections? How is it won in the lead-up to elections? What are the current developmental challenges, whether that's financing, whether that's oversight that exists within our political infrastructure, within our security infrastructure, that could potentially give us another 2023 in four years time. That is why this is where I feel like, yes, there's a lot of pain. I mean, whatever side of the argument you're on, some people are not in pain, they're rejoicing. But there's a lot of pain, so to speak, around these current elections. We can't stay in the place of pain. We have to move forward to say, how do we learn from this? And this is where I feel we have a room. We have an opportunity to help people connect to dots to say, listen, guys, this outcome is not a one-day outcome. The outcome you're complaining about is not an elections February 25, March 18 outcome. This is a four-year outcome, an outcome that is four years in the making. So if you don't want to have similar outcomes, then you have to pay attention. You have to pay attention. How many Nigerians are even aware how your name makes it onto a ballot? So we had a lot of people complaining, my name, our candidate's name was not on the ballot or somebody's name was. How many of us are aware of the process? There's a lot of, I mean, again, I will talk about the agitation against police and stuff like that. If a gang of thugs come up and show up to two policemen who are managing one gun in between them, you really think that they should jump in front of the fire to protect the ballot where they are obviously outnumbered. So these are not issues that are simply connected to elections. Look, whether anybody agrees or not, whatever argument, these elections are shown, and this is where I disagree a little bit with Mr. O'Hanile, when he was talking about, you know, how do we blame the citizens? These elections are shown that Nigerians are still voting the way they've always voted, along religious and ethnic preferences and sensibilities. So how do we change that? If that is not the best way to approach democracy, if that is obviously unhealthy for our democracy, how do we turn this around? How do we change the narrative? There's a lot of toxic problematic narratives right now passing on everywhere. And sometimes maybe in just the energy of, oh, we really have to talk about what happened. We're not looking forward to what can be, what is possible. I think we have a room here to begin to shape narratives. We have a room here to begin to connect the dots for people so that, and again, I'm saying this and I've been repeating it everywhere. An engaged citizenry is not just a citizen that shows up to vote. An engaged citizen is not just a citizen who shows up to vote. An engaged citizen is a citizen who will be involved in governance from point A to point C. Which means that by the time we get to elections period, citizens know who not to vote for. By the time we get to elections period, we know the power startups, we know the agencies that are not fit, that are not ready. And we can begin to raise alarm, talk about it in the lead-up to elections. So I am saying, and I know this is very unpopular opinion, let the elections process, let the court process and all of that, let it go through, let it happen, but we have a big assignment ahead of us. An assignment that we have to declare is either we're shaping narratives to keep this country together, to keep democracy functioning, or we're powering narratives to say it's not worth it, let's all just throw our hands up in the air and forget everything. Okay, well, we're still talking about the outcome of the elections and we need to look at the way forward, but we'll take a short break now. When we return, we go into specifics of how to go about that. Stay with us. Okay, you're welcome back. It's still Plus Politics on Plus TV Africa. And we're talking with Adenike Alloba, Program Director Managing Editor of Data Fight and also Judo Hanile, Program Director Development Dynamics. Well, an election circle is basically like three before the election, or four before the election, during the election, after the election, before the inauguration, then after that what happens when the people are sworn in and they begin to govern our country, Nigeria. We've talked about what happened before the elections, right now after the elections between this time and the date for inauguration, which is hopefully on the 29th of May. There have been series of litigations and it is expected that the people who were advocating for a better Nigeria, educating the people and all that, at that time, will also be interested in this period where there are litigations, court cases are there and all that and looking into what is really going on. So I'd like to just find out what is the civil society doing in this period leading up to the inauguration? How are you following the litigations in the courts and all that? What possible outcome are you looking at? Let me begin with you, Jude Ohanere. Well, the challenge here is that as a country, this bungled election has moved us so many years backwards and it's important that we understand that because without clear accountability and responsibility for actions taken, we wouldn't move as a country and that's why we are where we are, like my sister Nikke talking about moving forward, moving forward to where and from where. The INEC got all the support they needed from civil society, from the international community, from every corner in this world and they continued to promise that this election was going to be an improvement. We're all here in 2015 when we had an election when Professor Tahiru Jiga was the INEC chair and we saw how somebody considered on the basis of the reality of the fact that the election was won and lost and you expect that we were to move forward from that point to the level where post-election litigation will no longer be an issue in the polity. If they tell you the amount of money and the amount of, you know, the time of the judiciary that is wasted on these election petitions that we can do without because usually if the election is properly conducted, the citizens will make their choice, you know. Nikke said, I also disagree because you wouldn't know how people are voting if the results are not clearly brought out real-time and you look at them. If you look at LEGO's results, for instance, the presidential election in LEGOs, you will discover the discrepancy between what INEC published and what the political parties were able to put together in their various situations. You'll see that Nigerians have also started moving beyond religion and ethnicity in their voting pattern. But INEC made it very difficult for that to become very glaring and clear. But there are signs that people were moving beyond religion and ethnicity. So moving forward, really, the country has not been this low with election and unfortunately, for somebody to think that what worked in 2007 when Mauricio and his group messed up the election can happen in 2023 and people will move on with it. It is very, very difficult. It is obvious because people invested a lot of energy, emotion and commitment to this process. And they need to see a transparent process. If you lost, you see a glaringly that you've lost and then you can begin to plan for the next set of elections and your involvement in the governance process and all that. But now people are stuck with this heavy disbelief. And nobody is taking responsibility. INEC failed woefully with the billions of Naira spent. The whole citizens do not need to know how INEC spent the money. But the citizens know that INEC failed the country and every child in secondary school is axing. Why is it difficult for Nigerians to just cast votes and count? I didn't know what to tell the child. So the issue is that really the mood of transition has been compromised. The problem we are having now is that we have on our hand a very mangled and dismembered mandate. I don't know what is going to happen. But like has been said, of course, the process is that people will go to court. It is hoped that the court will be able to sort this out. But the mood of the nation is such that this glaring under performance, woeful failure by INEC has put this country in a very, very big, big challenge in terms of moving forward. And the whole issue of transition in the United Nations and all of that remains a challenge. Just a moment. My question really is whether INEC did well or not is no longer an issue. It's left for the courts to say that what happened was not supposed to happen because INEC itself has said that it did a fantastic job. And then the federal government, by proxy, is also saying that INEC did a fantastic job. So it's left for the evidences before the court to prove whether they did a fantastic job or not because if there were discrepancies or if the mode of transmission, for instance, was done against the law, is the courts that will determine. My question was, how interested is the civil society in this stage of our electoral process which is going to court as it is, because that's the popular phrase right now, going to court. How interested is the civil society and how do you intend to follow these? Or will you wait? Will the civil society wait or are they supposed to wait till after the court cases are won and lost, then they continue their advocacy from there? That's the question I'm really asking. Basically, of course, some members of the civil society are interested in observing the court processes. So definitely they will go to observe the court processes and see what happens because at this level, there is little civil society input. It's about those who are challenging the elections and those who believe that the election was clearly fair. But I'm also clear that you as a citizen also was here when all of this happened and I say people who continue to lie to ourselves will remain where we are. So the reality is that people will look at that and a lot of people have their challenges with the judiciary as well. You've seen some of the pronouncements that have made in the past and even to basic people in primary school who couldn't understand rationale of some of those judgments as basic as they ask. So the Nigerian judiciary also has a lot of job to do to be able to redeem the image of the judiciary alongside that of the country. So it's expected that they will go there. But what I'm trying to let you know is that we could have avoided all of this. But unfortunately, we are where we are and we need to be able to call out those who brought us to this mess. This is seriously things that can be avoided. The transmission of result was muted and now we are here with several litigation including people who would have gone home happily that they lost election with a transparent process. So we are where we are really my brother and what we need to do now is to hope that the court will do the market camp. But personally, I believe that the court have been overboding over the years. We have a lot of issues that our courts can deal with but we keep bringing this in every four years flooding with all these electoral cases that are really, really not their issue because we have an electoral system and an election management body that has not been performing. So we hope that the courts will do that. As a civil society we will only continue as we do insist that people should be able to become people should be able to voice their whatever issues they have in a civil manner and commit and believe that the process will deliver and at the end of the day whatever the results are people will also be able to take their decision but what I am trying to put across here clearly is that this is absolutely avoidable this country was put into this by people who acted out of personal interest as against national interest. Okay, let me come to Nikke I'd like to take you back a little bit when we were talking I mentioned something and you also were very vehement about it when you were talking about it you said the register the voter register needs a cleanup needs to be revisited and all that so when you were saying it what did you have in mind why is it so important what are the things that need to be done with the voter register and all that? I think there's need for almost like a porch and that's the word I've been using which means going through that voter register with a fine tooth comb and removing everything that is extraneous extraneous will be people who have died who have relocated that is the work that needs to be done and in every normal functioning societies that would be easy but for Nigeria it probably will take some work and so here is what I mean when I say look it's all well and good that we express our disappointment over the current but here is the thing for me and this is where again this is unpopular opinion governance is not about the individual who wins the election there are real issues of governance and this voter register is an issue of much more than an issue of just elections it's an issue of governance where a government agency has a register of people who are their names in that register basically puts the power in their hands to determine who votes and does not vote and that government agency now needs to do the work I mean we had all kinds of things during the elections people who saw their dead mothers their dead grandfathers names at polling unit posted out as voters who were coming to vote again this is where the math the math is important and like Genesis we say the math is not mathy if we're comparing voter turnout to a voter register of 97 million it will be low because obviously we do not have 97 million registered voters and so this is it's literally going through that register with a fine tooth comb and removing everything that is extraneous let's know what the figure of Nigeria's 14 population I think this is where it's important for civil society if we know these numbers by region we know these numbers data given to us broken down by demographics by location it allows us to even plot a graph of how to engage with the citizens oh this is where the voting population is this is the age range of the voting population in popular opinion a lot of people are saying oh a lot of people register but if you look at the age range of those who register you may wonder if there were other motivations for registering beyond voting perhaps people just wanted IDs but again to respond to your question what I mean by a review of the voter register is literally taking and I know I'm being very simplistic when I say we need INEC to go back and say Agibola Okichupusoni presents that for that voter register because that's the that faulty data will always land us in trouble faulty data will always land us in trouble and that's what we need to do with the voter register so that we can have an accurate figure do you think INEC has that capacity to do that because registers are presented to INEC I don't know if INEC is directly involved in identifying the people on the register at any time do you think they have the capacity to do that and even if they do have what other organization or what other body what kind of people should champion this cause of making sure the registers are cleaned as clean as possible thank you very much for that question I was hoping you would ask because it's a very important follow-on question how many agencies and how many startups collected data as Nigerians NIN collected customs immigration collected data in terms of institutions banks collected data there is room civic technology just technology is in the place where this is possible this is not further maths it is possible it does mean we have to examine what kind of collaborations can exist between the registration for NIN between our collection of passports between our BVN I mean one of the reasons when BVN was introduced it was around the idea of wanting to know who the real Nigerians are wanting to know the ones who have bank accounts so there is that data NIN came out and it was compulsory everybody must have a national identity number everybody must have a national identity number a collaboration between these institutions I mean amongst these institutions and organizations to make sure that somehow this voter registration because we honestly the truth is even if we say okay let's remove all the other passports INEC through pain and hurdles and stress INEC managed to increase voter registration in the lead up to these elections significant numbers of new registrations so if we can do that if INEC could manage a system where people were able to transfer their voters' cards people were able to re-register when their cards had either been lost or they missed an opportunity to register or complete then it is possible but I'm also saying that there is room within all the peristals of government within all the bodies that collect our data in Nigeria is it going to be a perfect perfect process probably not nothing in Nigeria seems to work the first time or it's perfect let me rephrase nothing in Nigeria is perfect the first time and so there is opportunity for us to so this is what I mean about moving forward to begin to examine institutions this is governance to say it can't be impossible for us to clean up our voter register so what do we need to do when I imagine that the answers I'm giving now there are probably some stakeholders who are thinking oh no this can be done better so let's facilitate stakeholder conversations to say how do we review our voter's register this is not a conversation that is going to happen one year to elections to 2027 elections where everybody is campaigning for their candidates and all of that that is a conversation that needs to happen now so if we need to come up with some strategy document to say hey this is our proposal as civil society or the entire stakeholder value chain or CBO's workers organizations this is our strategy for cleaning up our voter register and then we can submit that to government and then enhance advocacy around it somehow the electoral law got passed it took some time but it got passed we passed FOI law in this country took some time but it got passed so it means right after coming up with a strategy something to make sure that the voter register is clean then we have to power that with advocacy and say we want to make sure you're listening we want to make sure that you're going to take action and so it's I'm not simplifying the task of making it seem as if oh they just have to do presents like they do in primary school but I'm saying it is possible there are institutions within our current governing structure our current administrative structure as a nation that can facilitate the collaboration for INEC to review the voter register the voter register is core to our INEC's function because the voter register is what they used to plan their budgets the voter register is what they used to purchase or prepare voting materials so it's actually really critical to their work so if they're saying look it's impossible for us to do this by ourselves now is the time to begin to facilitate conversations to make sure that it gets done if one strategy doesn't work we have four years so try and try and try until we find one that works okay well let me come to Jude no matter the outcome of the court cases that we have people who are grieved have gone to the courts and they are saying a lot of things they are hoping for outcomes that may or may not come but no matter what the outcome is going to be we are going to have another government sworn in on May 29th or at least let's just like Nigerians will say bad as a bat before the end of the year we are going to have another government but Nikke said something earlier on about accountability so I'm starting with you what are some of the suggestions you would have for the citizenry for the civic society for the government and everybody who is a stakeholder what are the strategies to use to make sure that these people who have been elected into office can give account of what they do they can be held accountable for whatever they are doing in office what are some of your suggestions sir accountability is a continuum really and one of the worst things against accountability is the impunity in an atmosphere of impunity it is difficult to really push the agenda of accountability you know so moving forward like you noted of course some people will have to govern this country as we move and then the real issues around it is how well they are going to govern us so if you narrow it down to accountability and governance it's essentially looking at what the job of these people that are supposedly elected and those who are elected are essentially the job of every government across the federal and state and also local government is to go there and prepare the budget for four years and implement those budgets along the lines of doing that handle other issues of states that will lead to the welfare and security of the citizens that's essentially as simple as it can be the job of those who are elected into public offices so essentially the engagement moving forward is for us to totally evolve and engage with the budget process and that's where the missing link had been over the years so people get into office mismanage public resources in most of the states really you can't talk of a budget you are looking at at the federal level we started getting it right to a point when we move away from the padding of budgets which was one of the good things that President Buhari triggered when he came into office against a document by personal and parochial interests so we moved from there but also the whole challenge of translating that budget document to realities on the ground has been a huge issue citizens haven't been able to engage also because government has not shown leadership so part of it is that the citizenry will need to be strengthened and need to strengthen themselves along the lines of insisting on budget discipline and insisting on engaging the budget process and beginning to understand how it runs and how government resources are either spent or wasted and then begin to correct it from there because there are other institutions of state like the office of the auditor general at all levels which have been working over the years because of the ongoing impunity and of course you know at every point you have elections in any country that will validate your accountability processes and at any time you miss that it becomes a huge burden on the citizens so with the level of failure and impunity we have in the system the citizens have a lot of work to do and everybody has to be part of it those of you in the media those of us in civil society and every other person hoping that people in government will realize that their job is not to put all of us at risk but to improve on the lives of the people Thank you. If you may Nikke in 30 seconds if you may your own suggestions how to hold these people accountable because our time is actually up so very fast. I mean my suggestion would be we need a lot of spotlight on government at the sub-national level on governance at the sub-national level but yes we have to pay attention to the federal hence all the noise and agitation and emotions around the presidential elections but it leaves and dies at the sub-national level the budgets that are being spent what the budgets are being spent on the kind of institutional challenges that make it difficult for governance to reach the people for service delivery to get to the people who needed the most the ones who are the most endangered who feel the most impact of the failure of democracy the failure of service delivery and so I would say that we need a lot of attention at the sub-national level we need a lot of education for citizens to understand what the processes are to understand how they can engage those processes so that would be it in 30 seconds Alright thank you so much Adenike Alobar Program Director and Managing Editor Data Fight Thank you so much for coming on the program today and also Jude Ohanele Program Director Development Dynamics Thank you so much for being a part of our program today Thank you Well we've been talking with Adenike Alobar Program Director Managing Editor Data Fight and Jude Ohanele Program Director Development Dynamics and we were looking at the aftermath of the 2023 elections and what we need to do to move on and move forward until tomorrow when we come again with another edition of Plus Politics on behalf of the entire team of Plus Politics My name is Nyam Ghul Agadji Thank you for being there