 another one which um you sent me a picture of uh uh saying kind of that you didn't like it that i randomly put on instagram just messing around i saw yeah uh inversion tables or or um distraction yeah i guess technically you're trying to distract the spine or decompress the spine by hanging upside hanging upside down self-made sex swing in the gym by a large band yeah so hanging upside down sure because of gravity my spine is crushed itself so now i'm gonna hang upside down so my spine doesn't crush itself anymore again the body is of no obligation to make sense to you so i think just like the breaking up tissue it gives like it gives people mental clarity like oh i get it now yeah the way we compress our spine with weight on our back when we squat will decompress and then things will be good right yeah it's i mean people like dualistic when you kind of live in a dualistic universe right up has down left right black as white as cold um but with the compression of the lower back is not meant to move right it's built in way where hips are mobile low back stays stable right core stabilization um so of that stability of the lower back of the lumbar spine we need to look at structure and function right where muscles play a role in the functional stability of the lower back and you're not kicking a soccer ball with your fucking no that would be incredible if you could do that yeah but so muscles play a role in function and then you have uh annulus fibrosis so your your lumbar discs basically break up into two subsections of your annulus fibrosis then your nucleus propulsus that's like the fluidy stuff that ends up our cushions cushions yeah uh then you have ligaments there's massive network of ligaments between the bones that connect like the pelvis into the into the lower back um joint capsules like little facet joints that keep vertebra aligned with adjacent vertebra in the lower back now there is going to be that stretch reflex on the muscles that feel tight that's what you're feeling these muscles are of an interesting nature because they're not neurologically wired like the rest of our muscles are they're reacted to their position but we can't contract like when guys get low back pumps yeah yeah they couldn't really do an exercise you can't flex like your bicep exactly it's not under conscious control it's all a relative position kind of an internal safety mechanism so one bone doesn't move too far to the other because in the midst of these bones is a spinal cord that's kind of important is this so as and ql and all weird things like that what these muscles you're talking about no these are like transversal spinals multifidus is the common one you'll hear rotatories uh inner transverse they're all more of these out because then in three months i'm gonna give more messages that they're on teller or seri eyes yeah uh no so they're just like uh they're muscles that basically control relative position of the vertebra and all three planes of movement okay okay so if they're tight they're tight because some they're reacting and having to move or resist movement in an eccentric load so yeah the people are right if it feels and that's kind of the hard wire thought process something feels tight i'm going to stretch it right so it feels a pound on it i put more power right so the the banded distraction what it does yeah in the shortest term it'll have an effect on the neurological perception of that muscle feeling tight but when you're hanging from the squat rack for 20 minutes after that initial transient release of the muscle now we're getting into actual plastic deformity which is like your muscle has an elastic property to it you can kind of shut it shut it down it'll come back to more or less the same length over time whatever but the discs and the joint capsules and the ligaments these are things that we can't regain their elasticity regain the tension so you end up kind of in this vicious cycle where your low back is tight for any number of reasons you have poor hip mobility yeah it's your pelvic tilt your hip posture your fat your fat and that's the ones i see it's always the fat guys who are hanging upside down so instead of fix i hung upside down last weekend so what happens is they can't they release the muscle but in doing so they actually they degrade some of that structural stability that's also a contributing factor now we got to think stability is a value of a hundred percent yeah in regardless shoulder hit knee whatever and it's at what position we're getting contributions from function and what positions we're getting contribution from structure right between those two they need to equal a hundred percent otherwise you're going to end up with damage pathology breaks disc herniations whatever so if we're diminishing the functions ability to contribute to that stability or sorry the structure stability or structures ability to contribute to that stability then the muscles need to work that much harder so if we're you know adding length over time to these ligaments and tendons and discs and joint capsules then the muscles are going to reflexively have to take on more of the load over time so that's where weird imbalances and not weird imbalances or just you have to feel like to just be normal you have to hang yourself upside down every day yeah rather than i feel like uh with general foam rolling going back to foam sure is all these guys like all i didn't foam roll my legs are so tight so i was like well that's because you foam roll for three hours every single day your body's used to that stimulus and so you don't feel normal without it but if you just do it when you need it maybe you don't fucking i think just in conjunction the idea is to always scale scale stimulus from external to internal if we can move our get change the perception using external stimulus so we can use our body's own internal stimulus yeah to create that motion create that motion create that stability create that mobility within ourselves you're talking cues motor pattern moving exactly yeah moving into more unstable position so by and large that people that use the inversion tables and low back lumbar distraction stuff yeah your time better spent i think elsewhere yeah long answer to a short question no i liked it we'll just go still a little general here i guess along the lines a little bit of those two like body tempering it's become popular to lay really heavy things on you kind of like just a weighted foam roller i like the idea of it because i think i've thrown around my quad you're like oh that feels good like massage sure what do i know it's very but you look like an idiot yeah so how do you how do you uh when why how and are they going for the same mechanism kind of as the foam roller you're talking about yeah i mean to me it doesn't make sense because again it's a larger population like you've been in power lifting warm-up rooms before yeah but without fail the super heavies get off the squat and they have their super heavier friend put one of these large tempering devices on their lower back yeah so your lower back is an extended curve lordosis right lumbar lordosis so it's basically an extended curve thoracic spine is a kyphosis yeah flex type shape exactly so when you're face down you're applying that pressure load you're actually increasing the extension of the curve so thinking of why those muscles are getting tight in the first place yeah you're usually drawn into too much lordosis tight hips again like we mentioned before have played a big role the show as attaches in to the the anterior body tugging on it exactly pulling that forward so why would i want to put something on my lower back that's increasing that extension moment of the lumbar spine yeah yeah right maybe better allocated to the front of the hip stretching out the hip flexors but i mean there is benefit to that deep pressure stimulus that's why massage therapists and carburetors active release stuff all exist um but again it's you know you can have the tool but if you're not applying it on the right place um so i just think the idea of oh if it hurts here put it there it's like there's a difference between a symptom and a cause it's a different tool you can't put a wrench on a screw exactly so maybe put that thing on your quad yeah maybe put it on a hip flexor maybe maybe just put it on the shelf yeah yeah um for me that's a that's a tough one just because with a with a foam roller we can actually create motion on it like we can do dynamic foam rolling we're under that point pressure of the roller we can we can flex and extend the quad create that internal stimulus that we're trying to scale to you right that's going to be what makes a lasting change over time to the function and the structure of the muscle so not a big fan and again a lot of times i see it it's the the heavy weight lifters and it's like if you put your own body weight on a PVC pipe that didn't have any resistance and you're not going to taco like a you know your mom's foam roller or whatever i think they would have just the same if not more of an actual deep pressure stimulus and give you the uh the ability to start moving around on and create that internal stimulus that's actually going to make a correction yeah and i guess uh even just logically you know that's the only way i can think because i'm no fucking schooled guy uh but you start to think like all right well like that guy squats six seven eight nine a thousand pounds uh and that stimulus is going on as a rector's or whatever's tight anyways why would less weight than that fix that sure right i mean that's just logic right like if i don't have a metaphor in my head but just doesn't make sense if if you're if it's getting tight like you said it and then you're getting it tighter in the wrong position overextending yeah uh and it's less stimulus than you put on your back two or three times a week yeah where we hit it exactly so something that i think is technically legal in california if you're a chiropractor you can't break the skin but i think we can do minor surgeries in oregon uh i think this dry needling okay is legal in oregon oh sure absolutely yeah yeah no it's it's weird state to state so and then it's discipline to discipline like athletic trainers can dry needle in california no i swear i'm like half a athletic trainer i took like so many courses oh well let's let's grab half an equal grammy there we go uh so it's um you may know more but i'm pretty sure acupuncture typically eastern type of medicine a little bit longer needle in their belief is they are digging into energies of the body uh and and changing the waves of how our energies are moving uh dry needling uh maybe a little shorter stumpier needle looks like me and you okay uh and kevin durantz the acupuncture needle gosh and they're actually trying to manipulate some tissue that's been knotted or locked up obviously these are my have to phone a friend on this yeah i'm not because it is not in my scope of practice not something i pursue i have friends that do it in canada it's accepted and that's one of like the major schools is in ontario i think master university has like the leading medical dry needling acupuncture thing yeah um can't speak about two but it does something like this yeah uh again i just think it's so we talked about external and internal stimulus yeah let's take the external in yeah essentially i think breaking the skin is going to have more of an effect on the nervous system regular of the hand modalities so i think the potential or possible like mechanism of correction it's making on and again i don't think it's a structural fix i think it's all neurological um yeah telling your muscle to chill out yeah yeah i think it i i don't know much about it to speak because like the comment section will just fill up yeah that's right yeah but i think it's effective i've never had it done oddly enough because it is hard to find practitioners in california i have a friend in santa monica that doesn't work around the nhl and he'll do it periodically um depending on what i need it i need it yeah i need your friend all right i hear good things so it's okay i have a lot of friends that um you know they do cupping they do that they do uh grafting sure um in in what i've hear from this is athletes yeah that their favorite is dry new yeah they feel it works the best what about uh something like cupping we're cupping um again me i'll bring the dumb term and you can bring good terms uh is uh is uh backwards foam rolling where they're taking fashion of some nature and trying to vacuum it uh away from my body not much experience with it i don't like flavor the weak treatment styles yeah so cupping it's been around i mean it's easy medicine right it's been around forever uh michael phelps right michael phelps like should have bought if cupping was on i thought about it myself because we could buy some cups some on amazon oh sure yeah yeah i just think to me the fact like michael phelps should have been able if cupping was a publicly traded company yeah michael phelps should have bought stock in it before the last one he's the new steve jobs yeah exactly yeah i just think um i it's been around for so long there has to be something there that's kind of i'm not gonna oh the research isn't whatever it's like it's always racism right sure it doesn't make it doesn't make it right wow uh i'm sure heroin's been around a while it's big big opiates are big yeah um so i think there's something to it but i i think the correction or it comes exclusion criteria is it the right treatment for you yeah yeah which is going to be kind of the overarching thought process of any sort of treatment probably used a little broader than it should recently yeah since the olympics and everyone was on the podium with the with the cupping cake yeah and it was like uh grassed in which uh blading or there's a million turns that are instrument assisted soft tissue mobilization yeah so people take a butter knife and they'll scrape it against a muscle make it look all purple yeah uh it's one of those ones where i don't think um if some is good more is better which is a problem with fitness industry in the whole is the idea of dose dependency that's a part that's an american issue it's a side effect yeah being america no it 100 percent is i i think the fitness industry is driven by america which a lot of things are and it's 100 percent america's number one issue if i was to run a president i'd figure out a way to fix it i don't know it yet i'd vote yeah it's me against the dwayne the rock johnson uh what a ballot the issue is is that if some is good more is better yeah and so we do that with everything yeah so again in some eastern medicine i think so the original term is gua sha words and i first showed up in text that i might be butchering us year 212 it's been around a while that is a while so i think it's for something to have that kind of staying power there must be something to it yeah i think it's efficacy is in the exclusion criteria who gets it and for what right because like say you have it for one of your injuries and people people form a relationship yeah treatment modalities that work that worked here yeah exactly so it's like if your only tools hammer everything's a nail that that old hot so i think with grass and uh it has its place whether that's places with you for a particular injury is yeah who does that sorry oh my friend uh who does that uh anybody massage therapist honestly yeah now so grassland is a company oh right so they they sort of cornered the game on a patent level and you need a certain level yeah certificate or something yeah so the patents since expired now the market's blowing up now everyone has kind of their your hand and no one's stopping you from grabbing a butter knife and yeah yeah let me see what the needle i guess per se sure yes um a or t what is it how does it use good bad you do it no yeah i mean it's again we're getting into the patent realm a little bit so the a or t police are watching it's local actually i believe actually maybe that's why i know the term yeah no it's brand it's a branded treatment modality i guess pin and stretch use it what i can't jam and something into something and move in the muscle right and yeah so they're really their anatomy is really good okay they're not the anatomy that they use is really good i'm not going to speak speak too broadly on it because i don't want the patent police to come knocking out my door but you do something manual yeah so your finger or your elbow so i think they're the work around so a rt being the brand mr t is people's usual work around muscle release technique okay no one has laid claim to that yet yet right patent pending patent pending um so yeah it's that's the the go to i think treatment style for lifters in general because they are so muscle bound but again we got to think the mechanism of correction i think with whether that be like the dynamic foam rolling we talked about earlier where maybe it's the movement that's creating 90 of the benefit and the external stimulus that accompanies that maybe the additional 10 right so the a or t active is the operative word which makes it a little different than just laying on a massage table and kind of getting that old thing so i think the again going back to stimulus it's the internal stimulus of you moving under that external stimulus that's i think makes the difference but different ways similar result more hopefully yeah or or particular right we're trying to get something to shut off or something to move better exactly and now you're it's just like programming oh i got a week lockout what do i do well there's 12 different things we might be able to do and you pick it apart and that's the thing it's like are you getting your programming from some dude with seven instagram followers yeah didn't meet what are you doing someone with experience and knowledge so that kind of goes so all these tools you use somewhat or think or valid someone no but the ones we talked about um what about ice ice versus heat heat and ice yeah fire and ice i think i mean the best wind and fire that wow what a reference i think the best research paper of all time goldilocks and the three bears okay some is too hot some is too cold maybe right in the middle so you want more contrast there no i don't want to look all right we're gonna sell yeah here's this here just put this on you will be fine um just and make it in a room yeah again i think it depends on uh not only with so ice and heat being a little different from like a biochemical standpoint um too deep pressure stimulus i think not only what the injury is but when the injury was i think that makes a big difference um more acute phases it goes back and forth um i mean it always depends but uh some people prefer ice in the in the acute phase some people prefer in the sub acute phase and then it depends on what the injury is um you know tendonitis issues some people for hate some people and then it comes down to responsiveness right yeah like a research could say one thing but that's that's average statistics across i mean you know this from the strength and conditioning from a coaching standpoint where it's like if you read research on something it's like well 12 well-trained collages me i was like what is well trained yeah because i don't think it's a field hockey team yeah right and that's 17 years old yeah so i think like being able to not just read research but interpret and extrapolate research out where you see fit yeah you could read the bible and think a guy lived in a whale yeah or you can interpret stories the bible and draw some sort of morality from that i think that's research kind of 101 ice and heat uh i don't think there is a consensus out there because i think uh shack would either be selling ice packs or or heating pads at one place exactly they got the market corner so i think it's i mean it depends um i think both have a benefit if use if use proper um so i guess uh leading into electro stim okay which i guess the main argument in this world would be against ice and heat um saying that inflammation is there for a reason why are we trying to ice to get that inflammation away let's electro stim that area make it flex bring more inflammation or nutrients or whatever into the area to flush it out again and kind of rotate this this this cycle rather than let's just ice or heat it thoughts thoughts on electric stim i'm always concerned when the people doing the research are the parties selling the product right so the thinking of a confirmation bias that might exist uh that being said do i have a stim unit yeah do i use it yeah and then like you said about the like when the injury happened yeah cute sages were to the subacute when do you use which and what setting which one's the best one yeah yeah up to you try try and figure i figured out i mean if pain is a subjective measure and we're looking for subjective improvement then it's on you yeah right yeah uh what about like laser and things on the same nature uh very similar almost more so with the bias being because those are expensive units yeah normally you only get that at a Cairo or a physical therapist or a hospital you're not getting it yourself we're now electro stim at least in our world has been more homemade um as far as the laser goes research better not great you're never going to find everyone would just be on lasers all the time yeah the prevailing stuff now or the new frontier is like led so basically everyone kind of comes at it with the different frequency of wavelength on that electromagnetic spectrum uh so there's different classifications to what i'm aware of so there's a class one class two class three some or class one makes you grow a third arm yeah and but one is the equivalent of like that pain in the ass kid with the laser pointer at the movie so i would just be really wary of you know i don't think there's a top end where it could potentially do damage if someone does have a machine like that hopefully they're more responsible i don't think that's available to the general public the lower level stuff um you might be getting some snake oil yeah some of them might be just be selling you know a semi-expensive 10 light and uh yeah does it have a place sure i think the science would be stimulates mitochondrial activity yeah a little too much uh efficacy versus effectiveness yeah we can do something right is it the right thing to do you're just saying uh uh everyone will be walking around with lasers uh is like my point of view on all this it's my point of view on supplements it's my point everyone on creatine isn't strong everyone who owns a foam roller still gets fucking injured seriously i've gone to a chiropractor since eighth grade i've done as much as i could in the gym i lift well you still get beat up like things still gonna happen none of these are end all be all yeah what else we got a knee torque we just talked about it for a second uh randomly yeah and it got you fired was that on the list before i brought it up no i got it yeah you brought it up so um a term i use often uh because again we're trying to build a queue to lead to you moving a certain way we talk about torque on the bar uh on on a bench where we're trying to get our elbows in the right place uh keep our shoulder tight uh torque in our hips uh just trying to get our knees and ankles and feet on the ground in the in the correct way for a sumo pole or a squat so things track properly again i've missed a lot of times when i talk when i say things uh i think you've already mentioned here in other places where it's uh it's it's kind of a bridge to what i want you to do what i'm saying isn't what's happening right we talk about bending a bar on a bench is the best example we're not bending a bar it's me trying to say something for you to think a way to get something done but hip torque or knee torque or torque in general is a real thing sure um uh so knees torque again it's it's the rosetta stone you're trying to queue your words into a particular intent yeah right so you're going um you're trying to just use whatever you're saying like i could say banana and if banana meant you externally rotated your hips as you went through deep reflection then cool fucking it's like training a dog exactly yeah more or less yeah people are know are no different so you can whatever you're saying is you can say whatever you want but it's the it's the intent and it's the execution of that intent that really matters so i guess knee torque is going to be dependent on foot position relative to the hip right yeah because knee torque is um again getting those knees to be in the right place getting tension in that ball joint in our in our hips yeah and which in turn hopefully make uses our glutes hamstrings low back quads uh in a proper manner so i think of it this way like if we wanted to hold something together and our two options were a nail and a screw what would you rather hold something you use the screw because it's got some torque exactly that helical motion where so i think with squatting a misconception i see is when the feet are straightforward most people's structure they're morphology that it'll actually create torque at the joint of the knee which isn't really the goal from an intense standpoint like you said it's hamstrings glutes it's create torque at that ball and socket because our knees moving in on our squat isn't because our knee joint is going like this yeah it's because of our hip joint not being tight enough for a lot turned on yeah and so our knees are actually moving in but the knee joint isn't moving yeah and i think if you have your feet dead forward in a squat and something i see more like the crossfit world in the powerlifting world if anything those powerlifters are way too far out and like it comes down to this idea of you know people talk about internal external rotation it's like you just have rotation you have an arc it's where that arc starts like baseball players we talked about kind of off camera where it's like the fact that he has an internal rotation deficiency is also the reason he's probably such a good pitcher because he has so much external rotation yeah obviously mobility flexibility strength is all relative and specific to what you're doing exactly so i mean it's gonna at some point it's going to benefit you but if you push too far the spectrum it's going to be of a detriment and potentially cause injury so the torque thing it's like you want my rule of thumb is when you're in the bottom of a squat is when you want to be generating the most torque right because when it's when you're in the most structurally unstable position and the muscles that move us in the helical axis are usually muscles of rotation right rotator cuff yeah uh stabilized glute mead is going to externally yeah those are wrapped wrapped around your butts like that yeah so they work they don't work against gravity they sort of they align the guide wires so the muscles that do work against gravity can be an efficient position quads extenders whatever yeah exactly so i think for me i don't want to see toes forward and knees out here because that's torque in the joint and the knee not torque at the hip creating muscular tension so that's for me from me torque i mean obviously torque is something you want to load it's something you want to generate and create because that's going to help us transfer from that eccentric to concentric but is that transfer happening through function or structure yeah right so i think having a you're not lifting with your bones and you're not yeah don't do that because you won't be lifting for very long yeah i think uh the toes really straight to goes into many arguments but like you see the best uh squatters in the world which are five foot six uh asian eastern european uh squatters with the smallest femurs in the world and their knees have no options to go anywhere so they can go very straight and they can squat straight down and they're mobile in their hips and they move perfectly that's not any of us no no it's definitely not where can people find you a website instagram yeah best place to find me nowadays www.pre-script.com pre-dash s-c-r-i-p-t yeah uh instagram v underscore muscle underscore doc um in person not really in person boss barbell club practice in mountain v california there you go near san jose near san francisco if you guys ever visiting check it out drop it and uh he's gonna go work on me now we're gonna eat food and then we're gonna podcast we're gonna find the podcast oh yeah shit i'm too many places itunes itunes rx radio rx apostrophe d radio yeah i think that's it oh and youtube on and the youtube youtube muscle dog youtube yeah that's it muscle doc yeah i'm not like i'm just shy of giving out my home address yes well it might as well 11 now i'm not my wife killed it i'm dead all right cool here we go