 Live from the Sands Convention Center in Las Vegas, Nevada, it's The Cube at AWS ReInvent 2014. Brought to you by headline sponsors, Amazon and Trend Micro. Okay, welcome back everyone. We are live at Amazon ReInvent. This is The Cube. We'll go out to the events and start the seeds from the noise. I'm John Furrier with my co, Stu Miniman. And fresh off the keynote, we squeezed in a special presentation of Engalop, CEO of Docker. Welcome back to The Cube. Thank you very much. Great to see you smiling. Did you close around a funding this week? Well, we decided we need to pace ourselves, you know. Uber Hermit, come on. Every other week. Oh yeah, well, yeah, there's a model to follow there. So I said to Jerry Chen last night, I go, look at your first investment you did great. Don't screw this up. So you're like, I'm not gonna screw it. You know, interesting, because he turns around and he says to me, don't screw this up for me, man. You guys are winning pretty good. It's great to see you. I love, to me, the rally, when you see inflection points and ships going on in the industry at the same time, it's pretty magical, but when you see a company kind of galvanized an entire ecosystem, like you guys have, it's been real special to watch. And that's what's really been happening. The big story is, you guys, it's just Docker, Docker, Docker, just the freedom, the interoperability, handling a lot of mundane steps for developers. It's been fantastic. Congratulations. Oh, thank you. Well, I think we always say, look, we can liberate developers from all that mundane activity. If we can free the application from the infrastructure, great things are going to happen for everybody, and we're happy to be part of that. All right, so I got to ask you, came out on stage and it was funny, it was almost like, you wanted to take Q&A, but you didn't have time for Q&A, you didn't have time for Q&A. So we'll do it here. So, one, just give us a quick rundown of how this all came together. Obviously, Amazon, great poster child in the clouds, great Docker platform to work with you guys on. How does all come together, what was the key announcement for you? Well, like most great business announcements at Docker these days, it actually starts in IRC with developers working in open source. So folks down in the AWS organization were working with our developers and we said we should do something more exciting here. But at the end of the day, what this announcement was really about was, gee, how can we enable developers who love AWS and who love Docker to use the two of them together and deploy Docker containers across availability zones and make it possible to do things like orchestration and scheduling. And so this was really a natural development between the two of us. One of the challenges of companies when they're in this business, and you know, you're a student of the industry is when you have this kind of Switzerland mindset, you use a risk of becoming an arms dealer. Sure. When you have platforms that are trying to compete against each other, how do you approach that? I mean, obviously Amazon is great, we used the Google Cloud conference last week and obviously Google's got a lot going on, you're a big part of that too. So you're balancing your neutral third party, I guess, between players, how do you balance that? How do you avoid being the arms dealer, even though you're technically the arms dealer? I mean, Docker's not really an arms dealer. We're not an arms dealer. But you know what I'm saying. No, no, but we actually sort of internally say, look, we've got lots of big guys who are working with us who don't all really like each other, right? And so if we play our cards right, we're Switzerland, if we play it wrong, we end up being Poland and they sort of run over us. And I think at the end of the day, we just default to doing what's right for developers. And for most of these guys, I think at the end they have to do what's right for developers too, because if they try and lock people in, if they try to avoid heterogeneity, they get killed. And it's done as soon as it's done, but I want to, on that point, double down on that. The old days in West Switzerland where you had that risk, but now you have the developer community. I think what's interesting about Docker is it's a nice equalizer, this new force. You see it that way as well and... Yeah, look, I think developers have an enormous amount of power. They influence what vendors do and they influence what happens inside the operating room, sorry, inside of operations. So if we do a good job with developers and we can encourage these large companies around us to do what's right for developers too, then I think we'll all win. Yeah, so Ben, since you guys are working with all the major cloud guys, I mean, you now got Amazon, you got Microsoft, you got Google and more, you guys can really be an enabler of that multi-cloud world because customers aren't just doing one. Even companies that we talk to that are all in on Amazon, they're using other services, they're using other people. What do you see as Docker's role in making it easier for customers to write their software application once and not have to think about what infrastructure is a service layer that they're on? Right, well, that's exactly the point. We want to make it possible for developers to build these distributed applications which have multiple different components, all of which get Dockerized and have them interact well with each other and really not worry about the infrastructure. The infrastructure can be whatever happens to be best for them. If that's on-premise, if it's VMware, if it's Red Hat, if it's Google, if it's Amazon, we don't personally care and they shouldn't care. They should be able to go wherever is best for them. All right, so Ben, we just spent over a decade fixing the challenges that VMware brought to the ecosystem. Storage, networking got much more difficult. So what are you seeing with Docker, with containers? I've seen lots of other projects. You've got cluster HQ doing flocker, there's networking security and storage. How's the ecosystem coalescing around Docker? Well, it's great. I mean, there's obviously a ton of activity happening in all the areas you talked about. Storage, network, composition, scheduling. What we as Docker are trying to do is make sure that all of these things, which are really about making multiple Docker containers work well together, that they don't do it in a way that suddenly breaks portability and breaks that clean separation from the infrastructure. So at Docker, we're doing a lot of work to build clean APIs around things like storage and networking and scheduling and then letting things like flocker or Kubernetes plug in. All right, so I loved your comment on stage that you said Docker's only an 18-month-year-old company and it should be like a kid. It should be spitting up on itself, barely figuring out how to walk, not running well. At DockerCon, you had 42 employees, so obviously it was the enter of life, the universe and everything. I think you've got 75 now? Well, tell me, give us the update, okay. Well, we have actually 70, but we have a pet turtle. So when he walks across the keyboard, he depresses the keys. Excellent, if we could strap a rocket pack to the back of it, Cumulus would be happy. They'll work on some of that. Talk to us a little bit inside. How do you guys move as fast as you are without tripping over your feet? And how do you keep moving as fast and building the company? So we've just had to embrace being open, right? Open internally in terms of how we communicate, but really more importantly, leveraging the whole open source ecosystem. I mean, so for example, you saw our announcement with Microsoft where they're going to be making Docker work on Windows. Now that's a huge technical undertaking. If we do this right, there'll be about 25 people from Microsoft working on it, two people from Docker, Inc. And a lot of folks from the community doing it in the open, getting examined in the open, Q8 in the open, and you sort of multiply that by everything, that's how we can make this work. We can't all do it on our own. Yeah, if I saw right, actually some of the early bits of code are actually available now, is that what I saw? They're actually available. And as we've said many times, there are over 600 people who are contributing to the Docker project, and we're 70 people total inside the company. There are over 50,000 Dockerized applications available in Docker Hub. Obviously, we've only had work to do with a fraction of those. Ben, what have been some of the questions you've been getting here? Obviously, Nick can do some Q&A now. I've got a few units left in the segment. What's the questions you're getting here? Backstage, I'm sure you got rushed after the stage. Sure. Presentation, in meetings. Right. What's some of the buzz and interactions that you've had, and what can you share? Well, I think what's really exciting is we're hearing from lots of more traditional enterprises now. We used to get buzzed by the web companies. Now we're getting the banks and the telcos and the healthcare companies, and they're really asking what is the right approach? What's the right infrastructure to use? And for some of those, we say, hey, for infrastructure, choose what you want to do. And then the right approach is really start with development, move gradually through to QA into production, and then use the things that are in the ecosystem that work well for you. On the development front, do you see this as a nice bridge between the two worlds? And what is the coolest thing that you've seen come out of the dockerization mega trend that's been going on over the past eight months? Well, I think the really cool thing for me, you'll be on a lot of the cool applications you've seen, like the guy doing Google Glass for healthcare this morning, is that for the first time in my memory, Dev and Ops are in fighting. They're actually agreeing on something. And that means that Dev can be as creative as it wants to be, and still allow Ops to build something that's secure and has uptime and automatable. And that to me is amazing. Those are dockers of the peace treaty for cloud growth. We're bringing peace and harmony and love to the world. You know, it's interesting. That's going to be our new meta model. Post.com bubble, we saw a lot of people trying to figure out all these sacred cows. But when people aren't making any money, the norms are formed really quickly around, quickly standardizing around de facto. Hey, we can agree quickly. If these things happen, we all can move forward peacefully and make more money, right? So that's kind of a docker moment, right? Would you agree that that's kind of an analogy that you could say that, hey, all this stuff, like some conflict, not conflicting directly, but like just friction around these dependencies. I'm a developer, the Dev Ops kind of piece. Is it similar to that? Is it that peace pill or peace treaty? Well, I mean, I'd always rather be a raging bull than a sacred cow. But I think what we're starting to see is that people all get that if you make the developers more productive and if you separate the issues of development from the issues of Ops, really everybody can do better. And so you can get harmony, not through this sort of Dev Ops fantasy of everybody's going to sit together and sing kumbaya. But if you can let the concerns be separated, Dev does what Dev, it needs to do, Ops needs to do what it needs to do, and there's a nice thing separation between them, then actually everybody wins. Okay, so what's the deal with Amazon? So what specifically is on paper, what's the actual framework on the deal, and what's your vision of it moving forward? Yeah, so with Amazon, we've basically committed to making sure that Docker runs exceptionally well on Amazon, and that we continue to collaborate in terms of having Amazon work well with Docker Hub, so people have access to the 50,000 and growing Dockerized applications, and we've committed to working together on all of these open orchestration APIs, so that what Amazon builds to make things work really well in Amazon doesn't break when you go on-premise or to some other cloud provider. Awesome. So Ben, you talk about, you've built such a big ecosystem, you've got open source contributing to all of it, how do you guys orchestrate? We've said sometimes, does an open source project need an overlord, watching over things, or can the community take care of things, and how do you build a business that can be successful leveraging open source? There's only one billion dollar open source company out there today, so obviously it's early days, but what's your vision as to how Docker helps this community move forward? Right, well, so the interesting thing for us is that we always talk about how there's this nice, clean separation with Docker between the concerns of Dev and the concerns of ops, and it also gives us a nice, clean separation in our business model, so everything Docker, open source engine is really all about making the developer more productive and providing a clean interface, and then our commercial model is based on selling commercial management software, two operations to help them manage a world where there are Docker containers everywhere and running across lots of different infrastructures. So, it's really clean for us. Oh, sorry about that, go ahead. Yeah. Well, we appreciate you coming on. What's the forecast next year? What's on your to-do list as CEO? We asked you this last time, is this still the same hire and keep growing? What's your goal? I mean, I see more partnerships. I mean, what's next? What's the next couple of months look like for you? Yeah, for me, it's really simple. It's three things. We've got to make this multi-docker container model work really well with orchestration, storage, networking, et cetera. We've got to launch our commercial software, and start servicing the 200 plus companies that are on our wait list for that product. And then we've got to really just make the ecosystem sing. And if we do that, I think everything else falls into place. And the monetization, you guys look at that as, that's kind of like the Twitter equation. You down the road, monetization, if you try to over-grab too early. Well, we always, right now, certainly we err on the side of adoption rather than monetization. But we have, as I said, a very good business model based off of selling commercial management software to operations to help in a world where Docker open source is making developers more productive. So it's great premium conversion. That's all classic. Well, congratulations here at Amazon. Docker, headlining the show again. Well, on day two. Appreciate you coming out. Browsing evasion from the audience twice. Yeah. For the Docker stuff. Very good crowd. Not a marketing show here at Reinvent. Amazon, you know, continuing to do great things around innovation and obviously now dockerization, embracing Docker for Amazon. A good move for them. With the crowd approval and Stu's approval. Which is great. So this is theCUBE. We'll be right back with our next guest. After this short break, I'm John Furrier with Stu Miniman. We'll be right back.