 On this episode of Skepticoke, a show about finally getting some answers. You made it here, and it was meant for us, why? What did you do wrong? Why do you hate us? What am I? You're no more to stay there. Whether we like those answers or not. Have we done this before? Humans have been around 400,000 years at least. How many times has this happened? The reason that gods destroy the tower is because humanity is about to discover something, and the reason that gods say is that they will then become like us. Yes. So I can't think too much about the space brothers aspect of this in that scenario. And that question in my mind raises a different question. It's consciousness or spirituality you need to mankind. That first clip was from the movie Prometheus. The second was from our guests today, Russ Kyle from the Brothers of the Serpent podcast, and Marty Garza, the UFO guru expert who is so, so good at what he does. Stick around. This is a classic, classic Skeptico. Welcome to Skeptico where we explore consciousness, science, and spirituality with leading researchers, thinkers, and their critics. I'm your host, Alex Sekaris. And today we welcome Russ Allen, Kyle Allen, creators of that oh so excellent Brothers of the Serpent podcast. And we also welcome their honorary Serpent brother Marty Garza. So, wow, this is just, you know, we're just chatting a little bit. I'm super excited to do this show. These guys, Russ and Kyle have a fantastic show. It really is great. Kind of famous. The show is for doing these incredible deep dive, part 14 kind of things, but deep, deep dive. And a while back, some people started turning me on to this series that they were doing on UFOs, which is a tiny bit out of their swing zone. Not exactly, but they kept going, hey man, you got to listen to this. You got to listen to Marty Garza. I got to listen, got to listen. And I did. And I got to tell you, fantastic. They are up to part nine at this point. And I have done a lot of UFO shows with some pretty prominent people in the UFO community, which won't mention names. This, what they've done, top of the heap. I mean, just really, really quality, quality stuff and super deep discussions, super smart discussions, tons of new information, and particularly new connections that these guys are making that you might never have thought of. So I really want to encourage you. We'll just be able to kind of touch on some of it as much as I can kind of pull out of these guys. But go listen to these shows, go listen to all their shows. But if you're interested in UFOs, it's just amazing, amazing stuff. And I was chatting with Marty, probably a book will come out of this. Certainly hope so. But in the meantime, just, Russ, Kyle, congratulations guys. Congratulations for bringing this to be. Well, thank you. And Alex, it's a pleasure to be here. We did some shows with you a while back and it's great to be back, man. Thank you so much for the invitation. Yeah, thanks for having us. Yeah. And really, I mean, congratulations to Marty. Yeah. I didn't know anything about all this stuff. So it's been, it's been a really fun deep dive for me. I know Russ has looked into it quite a bit as well, but this has all been new to me. So this is my only experience of going down the UFO rabbit hole. So thanks a lot, Marty. Yeah, we can, all the, all the, yeah, all the, the compliments you just gave us really on the UFO episodes go to Marty. I mean, Kyle and I are just podcasters over here, but this dude has done the work. You know, he's really done the research. But you guys have a great, a great interaction going on. And we're going to really, I'm going to really pull a lot from Marty in this interview because he is such the master here. But I want to start, I want to start with you guys. Like, like Kyle, I mean, you, you got an interesting perspective. I love when you're calling bullshit because you're calling bullshit. And so many of the things that I am like, yes. I mean, he is appropriately calling bullshit, not like bullshit, bullshit, but just like, you know, could be bullshit. You got to consider that. So tell me, tell me from your perspective, Kyle, how this project has kind of changed you, shaped you, interested you and pulled you into, because again, this isn't, you know, something that you were probably involved in at that level. So let's start with, let's start with Kyle. Well, all right. I mean, it's been very surprising on many levels. Right off the, right off the, the get go was all of the government involvement stuff that I was completely unaware of. So that was really just like, wow, this is, this is how deeply these, you know, people have been involved in this on, you know, on the government level, you know, intelligence agencies, all this kind of stuff. So that was very surprising in the beginning. Obviously, as we go deeper into the mysteries, the spiritual aspects, I think I was somewhat aware of, but the fact that it sort of merges into the, you know, the, the spiritual side or the 14, so to speak, strange phenomena is really interesting to me and I'm, you know, I just get really skeptical of the anecdotal accounts. That's really where it just, it's hard to take stock in any of these things wholeheartedly. What I really like about what Marty's done is, is draw the connections across all of the accounts to show you the patterns, that sort of thing. And yeah, I just, I'm open to the spirit, the spiritual side of things. I'm open to the alien question. I'm totally open to the nuts and bolts question, but trying to put all of this together into one box to say that this is, this is all one thing taking place. It's kind of been difficult for me. So I think I want to draw lines like my natural inclination is to say, okay, there's a dividing line here. There's a dividing line over there. And then go, you know, try to categorize these things in some way where we can look into the, to them deeper individually. And that doesn't seem to be able to be done, which is my problem. Not with that guy, not with that guy next to you, because no, but kind of kidding, but kind of seriously because Russ, so much of what you're doing is kind of being open to kind of dissolving those lines and kind of throwing all that. So how did you come about? How has it come together for you? And how did it even start? Maybe the origin of this? And then did you think it was going to go this far? Did you see it going the directions that it has gone? And how has it affected you? Yeah. So I became interested in UFO, the UFO topic. I mean, decades ago, right around the same time, I was, I was sort of, I sort of did a deep dive into all manner of just mysterious subjects. So that was when I first started getting into UFOs, but really what's really, really grabbed me was the first time I read a Jacques Valais book. And I think it was messengers of deception was the first one I read. And then I was hooked. I was like, okay, I got to check this, this, this subject out because it's far more, it actually was, it seemed far more interesting to me in what he was trying to say than just, oh, we're being visited by, you know, possible extraterrestrials. That's interesting, but it's not as weird as what Jacques was presenting was just that not only is there some kind of presence, but it also has all these other aspects. It affects people's consciousness. There's parts of it that look physical. There's other parts of it that don't look completely non-physical or what you would categorize as paranormal. And then also, you know, the common idea of there's aliens here and the government knows about it and is keeping it secret. Valais is saying, no, basically the source of the deception comes from the phenomena itself. That was really, that really grabbed me, you know, because it's one thing for governments to keep secret. That's kind of what they do. It's almost part of their job. But, you know, when you have something as big as this and it's also kind of hiding for some reason, then you really want to dig into it or I did. So that was the beginning of my exploration of the subject. So by the time, you know, we made the podcast and we started doing this stuff and then I met Marty and I just, you know, he showed up into our online community, the Discord. And at the time, this was a couple of years ago now, at the time that some interesting things were happening with the subject of UFOs and UAPs and, you know, just in the mainstream view in the public eye. And I knew at that point because of my interactions with Marty that he had a really deep knowledge of this topic. And I was like, you know what? We need to tackle this on the podcast. I already thought it was ancient. And to me, you know, our podcast on the subject of ancient mysteries, this fit, I knew it was a little bit outside the wheelhouse, like you said. We normally are looking at ancient civilizations, but this, this thing is old. So I was like, I just asked Marty, I was like, hey, man, you know, I know you know a lot about this. What would you say to coming on the show sometime? And let's do a UFO show. And he agreed and it's turned into a nine part episode. And there's no end in sight, which is exactly what we want. You know, that's, You won't tell us what's really going on. Yeah. So he's like, we'll get to that later. So he leaves us with questions every time. But of course that's really the nature of our show is, is more than looking for answers is looking for the right questions. And Marty is great at doing that. Well, you know, that, that origin story is so fitting for brothers of the serpent and what you guys have done in the community really. And in so many kind of subtle little unique ways, but you, I don't think a lot of people can appreciate this, but I appreciate the shit out of the fact that you got a community and you so trust that community, that you can turn to that community and say, no, this is a genuine, legit guy. And he deserves to be on the show and he's on the show once and he passes the test. He's on the show again. And I think that's so hard for people to, you know, there's all these ideas of what will I see and, you know, what's his profile like and what's his, you know, what's his following like and all the rest of that. And credit to you guys for feeling, I guess, secure enough in what you know and what you've put together to say, no, this is, this is legit. So Marty from your party still taking the test. Okay. We're still testing them out. Well, well played Kyle completely. So, so Marty, what was it like? What was it like for you coming in doing this? If people, it's going to be hard for people who haven't heard any of this because they're not going to really, we're kind of talking about something that they don't know and they don't know what it is. But again, let me just recap really briefly, you know, nine episodes, each one is at least two hours. Some of them are three hours. Packed, packed, walled, walled stuff. And, you know, what are some of the ones? Part one, part two, 162, 166, 173. These are just the numbers, the show numbers. Part four, the others. Part five, 213, a history of unlikely coincidences, which had to be followed up with 214, part two of part six. The history of unlikely coincidences is part two. And then 224, deconstructing demons. 225, an overview conversation where they go back and go, okay, for those of you, this is about the two years in the making of this series. For those of you who haven't followed on, let's catch you up to date. And then most recently, 238, part nine revelations, which starts getting into the deep waters of trying to understand this, tying it all together. But at this consciousness level, but at the same time, this nuanced, well, we can't just be on the consciousness level. We also have to be on the nuts and bolts level. We have to be on the conspiratorial governmental level. We have to be on world government level, all that stuff. Marty, just a little bit about how this origin of this thing comes from you, how you pop in there, and then how you just have this flood of information that you're able to kind of bring to us. Okay, there was so much said in setting this up that there are a few things I have to address. I may bring some information, some data to the table, but it's really the show. In other words, Russ and Kyle have built a show that is like the perfect venue to be able to have this type of a discussion with a following of individuals that you feel comfortable going deep into the weeds on details that they're not pedestrian level. They're not simple conversations. They're there for people, thoughtful individuals who have an open mind are willing to listen to things that might make them feel uncomfortable at certain points. And without going in, I'm sure we're going to get into the finer details of it, but one thing that I think that makes the show quite different or our approach, because I view this as we're a team and I think this our approach to the phenomenon, what makes it different is that we go in and anybody that listens to the show knows we go into the earning or certificate of ignorance. I think a lot of the hundreds or thousands of other podcasts and YouTube channels are dedicated to the phenomenon tend to go into it with a perspective of knowing they're convinced of a certain aspect of the phenomenon and really try to dwell on it and hammer it home without consideration for any data that might conflict with that. So we go in saying, let's just present data and let's pitch some ideas back and what could account for this and how do these things correlate with other things that might be going on? During the show we talk about at one point how rather than debating individual cases because any case could be argued forever. There's no definitive case that can't be scrutinized and debated. So rather than creating a show where we're simply debating individual cases, I said, let's just start putting data out. Let's put data into this database and let's look for patterns within this data. When you start discussing enough cases, let's say a certain percentage of them might be misidentifications or hoaxes or whatever. Once you're plugging this into a database of significant size, those errors start to become less important than the overall. In other words, the patterns start emerging and they're more significant than the individual case. I'm very hesitant to hang the entire phenomenon on one particular case or another. I think, for example, the Nimitz-Tic-Tac case is a very good example of this. I think there's also another way to take that. I was going to kick this off and then Russ, you already kind of hit on it a little bit, but I'd go all the way back to Episode 1 and right at the beginning, you guys have this kind of great back and forth and then you all kind of break down and laugh about this point and it's such a profound point and I think it ties into what Marty was saying. But you say, hey, one thing you realize when you get into this is everybody's lying. First of all, and this is like such a great point, the phenomenon is lying. They're lying. It's lying. Whatever it is, this intelligence, we know enough to pretty confidently say it could reveal itself if it wanted to and it doesn't. So it's lying. It's in deception. And then you go one step further and you go, hey, the government slash control mechanism, whatever you want to call it is lying. Clearly they're lying. They've developed a whole science of lying, and that's what I think relates to what Marty was just saying is because I kind of take it one step further. It's not that just that one case can be debated. It's the fact that that's one of the tools in their playbook. I just was hearing this the other day. You take a case and you take three eyewitnesses that all say the same one and you debunk each one of them separately and you never combine. This is a tool in the playbook. But then to get back on track and I'm going to have to stay on track here because there's so much stuff. But the third leg of that lying thing that I think is really, really deep is that we're lying to ourselves. That's what I heard you guys say in episode one. So we're lying to ourselves. And I think that goes really deep because, you know, you see that all the data that's come at us and most of us can't deal with it, can't process it, at least right away, myself included. And now I've been at it for a while. It's easier to take it in. But if you roll back the clock, I think we can all go back to a place where we're like, nah, nah, I can't go there. And I thought that was such a great insight for you guys to set the stage and everyone can kind of drop their shoulders and go, okay, everyone's trying to lie to me. With that, now I have to try and find the truth. Any thoughts on that from any of you guys? Yeah, that's, yes, that is a good point that the, and I guess you're just bringing up a point that we initially made, which is that, and this is kind of what Marty was saying about the certificate of ignorance. This is sort of a, we've developed this as a philosophy for our show in general, is that let's try, let's tackle these subjects from the best of our ability, just coming in, acknowledging, you know what, we don't know anything. Like, you know, we have no idea what's going on here. So let's try to look at this as freshly as possible. And that's part of that, you know, realizing that the phenomena is lying to us or is being deceptive, that government and other large organizations, powerful organizations are lying to us about it and being deceptive. And then our own normal natural inability to sort of take in information that is far outside of anything you normally experience is part of the deception. Sometimes it seems like the phenomena itself, you know, Valais points this out, that there is a purposeful, almost seemingly, you can't say this for sure, but a seemingly purposeful injection of absurdity into the phenomena itself, which is kind of part of how the deception works. You know, I do remember what you're just talking about when I was first looking into these topics and I'm reading case after case and books or on websites or whatever. And sometimes you come across one and you're just like, what is this even, you know, and you just can't even digest it because it's so strange. And so, yes, the purposeful injection of absurdity is part of it, you're right. And that makes us lie to ourselves or in a way deceive ourselves about the topic. So this is kind of what our own certificate of ignorance philosophy on our show is supposed to help us do is just to say, let's just get rid of all the ideas of what is or isn't absurd and just say, let's look at the information. And Marty, of course, is fantastic at bringing the data. And that's what the shows have been about. We go through the data and then we talk about the cases. And of course, Marty, I think, has a general idea of the direction he's going. And Kyle and I are always trying to, like, take four or five steps past him and then he tells us no. That's how most of the episodes go. What do you think, Marty? But you also have to get rid of your biases, right? Yeah. I mean, this is the way that I lie to myself all the time. I have this bias and I'm like, well, I need to be able to explain this thing with physics or with something that I can work with, that I have knowledge of or that I've learned. And in some cases, that just doesn't happen. And that is tough to accept when you've got, especially when you have corroborating evidence and things that come together that's like, okay, so if I'm going to accept that this happened and I have no tools to use with which to deconstruct it or to explain it in any way. And it's just like that. Totally ignorant of what's going on. Yeah. The deception, there are deceptions at many layers. In addition to the deception on the part of government agencies, you have reporting bias. An example of this is J. Hynke who was the science advisor for, for a project blue book, right? He noted this as he was getting into, into the 1960s, the latter part of, the latter part of blue book. And, you know, as for those that may not know this, he started off as a skeptic when, when he was hired on to blue book, but he became a believer based on what he saw. And he eventually came to the realization that a significant portion of the reports were being filtered out because they were absurd. They did not conform to the standard model of what a UFO should be. Now there may be, there may be other reasons. But the, you know, the easy reason it would be, it's too strange. It would discredit the individuals making the reports. It would discredit, you know, a lot of times the police officers, which were generally the first line, that whenever there was an incident, generally that gets called into the police department. The police would go and do an interview, conduct an interview with the witness. And then that would be forwarded on to the Air Force who would forward it on to blue book. Hold on, let's, let's jump right to the chase with Heineck. Do you think part of the reason they picked that guy was because they thought he would go the way that he went and then eventually he flips and he becomes, but don't you think kind of those guys are smart and they know that type and they know that guy is, you know what I mean? Do you think? Oh yeah, there were, there were deceptions. They're, they're, they're again, this is completely, you pointed out one, for example, one, one way that they were deceptive is they would not corroborate the incidents. Let's say you had a sighting where there were three different individuals at different locations that had an observation. If you look through the blue book files, you'll find that they'll have one explanation for one, a completely different explanation for another. And they never corroborate that information, cross-reference it and go, okay, we have a triangulated sighting for all intensive purposes. So that, that negates the argument that these were misidentifications, for example. So that's one form of, that's one form of deception. I'm going to hammer on that a little bit more. Pardon me for, for, but here's the point because that kind of deception really takes us in a whole different direction in a lot of ways. And it's like, you have to be kind of shook out of it. And that's why I like what Kyle was saying. You know, it's like, we're all doing that. We're all going down the path that we know with that we want to trust, rely on, no, physics works. I know, you know, I can build trucks. I can do this. I can play in my band. I can tune my thing and everything. And then, you know, things get shook out of it. Here was like a great example that you gave Marty. I thought this was just phenomenal. It just kind of shakes you right to it. You go, Hey, if there were strange figures walking around that night in your backyard, you would be concerned. If your neighbors saw strange beings or things walking around in your backyard, they would be concerned. If the police saw strangers, they would be concerned. If you weren't lived next to a military base and they, if you saw strange beings walking around, there would be concern. And yet there's this kind of level of mind control that we've fallen into as part of this thing. And you don't know if it's part of the phenomena that's slipped over into the government control system or if it is just the government control system or if they're all blended together. And those are the kind of nuances that you guys deal with. But it's like what you pointed out is take a step back, people. That's ridiculous. Because what they're telling us over and over again is, Oh, don't worry about that. There's nothing there. Move on. The lack of reaction is illustrative as well. In other words, it suggests, and I'm getting ahead of myself here a little bit, but for example, the government has generally not denied the existence of UFOs if you get down to the details, right? They say none of the reports have indicated a threat to national security. But then we come to find out that there have been incidents where these things have been observed over nuclear facilities over military facilities and all of this, where there are clearly national security implications. But yet we see no reaction. We see, you know, a military's position isn't, let's wait and see what happens. That's not the way it works. They have to assume that it's hostile until proven otherwise, right? You don't go flying into restricted airspace. And then just to, and maybe they're not hostile or maybe they're not taking pictures of our secret facilities, right? You take them down. You don't respond. We don't know who you are. You don't respond. We're taking you out. And oh, if it was somebody that ventured in by accident, that's how the chips fall. So when we see a lack of the development of the ability to protect us from such things, that must surely be saying something. Is it that they know what it is and it's theirs and it's, so they're playing the game that we don't know what it is. Maybe it's a UFO or do they know exactly what it is and there's not a damn thing they could do about it? Or is there a deal in place? What do you think? Well, we can back up to roughly 1949 to maybe start getting an idea of what might be going on. The general public has been led to believe that all of this started with the Roswell and the Kenneth Arnold site. But the truth of the matter is there were already, there was already a UFO investigation as early as 1944. They were investigating in fact, HP Robertson was later headed, the Roberts of Penn was tasked to investigate Foo Flyers during World War II. So we also come to find out that there was the crash at Trinity and a ledge of recovery. Then 47, we have the Kenneth Arnold siding. Shortly after we have the Roswell crash, we have a release of a statement saying we've recovered a crash disk. And then they backpedal and claim, oh no, it was a weather balloon and all. We get project sign, okay, the military is going to do something about this to get to the bottom of it. But when this started hitting the media, we had Sydney Shallot write a couple of articles for the Saturday evening post. Later on, we have Bob Gina write a huge article for Life Magazine. And these things are saying, have we visitors from space? And you're saying, oh, these reporters are digging up dirt. They've found out that maybe the government's lying to us and that maybe there really are extraterrestrials visiting Earth. Can I throw something in here? Sure. Real quick, I'm sorry to take you off course, but I think it was a Life Magazine article that was, they were urging people to come forward with their accounts. And you won't be ridiculed. Remember this? Absolutely. And then we see this stuff going on in modern times with the government and stuff and they're telling everybody, okay, we're looking into this and I'm like, oh god, here we go again. So hold it, just real quick, where are you taking that? Because there's two ways to take it. One is that they're looking for people to out themselves. Yes. Yeah, okay. Yeah, they're telling you we're not going to ridicule you and yet you find out that there was... That's what they did for the next several decades. Every account that came forward got ridiculed to ridiculous degrees to where the person's life was ruined. To make my point, in 1956, Edward Rupel, who was heading Project Blue Book, writes his book and he discloses that Sidney Charlotte and Bob Gina were being fed information by the Air Force. They were a scion. They were purposely seeding the concept of extraterrestrials into the public mindset while they were also denying that they were investigating. So it was like paying no mind to the object I'm holding behind my back. I believe it's that they may have already figured out that this was making more complex than that. There were signs. If you take, like, for example, I know you had a conversation with Grant Cameron where he talks about the Wilbert Smith memo where he talks about a program that was more secure than the H-Bomb in the United States and it mentions that they think it may have psychic or I'm trying to remember the exact terminology. Mental phenomenon is what's in the memo. That was very early on. There's a lot of speculation, probably true, that MKUltra, one of the agendas, was not just that the Russians are reading our minds, but ET's reading our mind too. So I'm going to try and kind of pin this down. And we'll start with you, Marty, and then I want to hear Russ. So Net-Net, it's all a Psyop. We get that from the strawberry ice cream and the Richard Doty and I don't know why the hell anyone would even listen to Lou Elizondo from the beginning. I'm like, this is obviously a political Psyop, but it got all this traction, stuff like that. Anyone who's looked at this history like you guys have, Psyop, Psyop, Psyop, mind control, mind control, but what's the point of it, I think, is where we're trying to get. What does that mean? Because you could make the argument, ultimately that's the right call to make. That's what you would do or I would do in that situation. What's the Net-Net for you in terms of the way they're handling the Psyop way that they're handling this? Go ahead, Marty. Okay, I thought he was asking you, Russ. No, I think he's asking you and then me. You jump in, Russ. We'll let Marty off the hook for a minute. I would have to say I have no idea. I do think that there, I have this, I don't know what you would call it, just this way of thinking where I try to remind myself that when it looks like somebody is doing something that makes absolutely no sense, all that means is I don't know what their motives and reasons are. It looks completely nonsensical and you're like, what the hell are they doing? But really they have reasons, even if they don't know them, sometimes that's the case. I do think that any actions being taken by government people who seem to be involved in this, they have their reasons and they probably make sense to them with all of their motivations. Come on, speculate a little bit. When your mind goes there, what do you think? What do you think some of those reasons might be? Okay, they could be just freaking terrified. That's one reason is that they are afraid of it and they don't want, this is probably the most open and easiest thing to think of is that they're afraid of it and they don't want the public to also know what's really going on because they don't know what's going on. Especially when you go back to World War II and you think about the powers and the threats that were happening and the secret technology that was being developed, there is a level of like, you know, if the government is seeing something and they think it like what Marty was pointing out, this is hostile, they're going to have to dig into it, right? If they find out that this is far beyond, you know, some other nation or maybe they never really know, but they think like, okay, this is definitely not any of our enemies at this time but then we're also developing secret stuff and we're not wanting that to get out. But then we've got reports from people coming in and they're encouraging the reports, bring us reports because they need information. You can see that they're being pulled from so many different directions. They might be getting on to something and then finally it's like, okay, we just found out something, pull back. It was a sigh up. And so they're actually pretending it was a sigh up when it wasn't because they found something else out about it or maybe you see what I'm saying? It's like, and where does it stop? Especially with the government because they do have real threats and they have to keep secrets. So I can see how it could get really tricky in some places. Yeah, it can get tricky. But what I was trying to say was that I think that it may be possible to try to look at the actions of these people and sort of reverse engineer what they think about the phenomena itself. But I'm not as interested in that as I am in just looking at the phenomena itself. And that's even harder because the phenomena also seems to be deceptive and how in the hell could you possibly imagine that you could reverse engineer the reasons for that? You know, but there's plenty of people like, oh, yeah, you know, they hide themselves from us because we aren't ready yet. You know, it's like the whole Star Trek sort of, what is that thing they called the prime directive, right? So, but to me, I'm looking at our own government people, which are human beings and they have these convoluted possible reasons for what they're doing and we have no way of disentangling them probably. And to imagine that we can do that with whatever this other thing is doing, I just don't think it's possible. I don't have a problem with sitting with a mystery. I understand that there are just going to be questions and sometimes they're never going to be able to be answered, but I still like to explore them because I want the question. I like to try to narrow the question down to where it's the right question. So I guess this probably annoys people, but I'm not always looking for answers. What I really am interested in is let's explore the data. Let's look at the broadest possible grouping of the information. See if we see patterns, see if that makes us able to say, ah, now I can sort of recognize some things and maybe I can come to some conclusions, but really what I'm doing is I'm trying to identify what is, what's happened to people, you know, and what's going on. And that is a question that just isn't going to be able to be answered. I don't think Marty, how evil do you think the Psyop is? Well, I think maybe I should clarify one thing about the Psyop is the Psyop, the Psyop in my opinion, isn't that the phenomenon doesn't exist. I think the Psyop might be to hide the fact that they didn't know what they were necessarily dealing with. That's one aspect because like, like Russ just pointed out, we, there's no way that we could try to understand the motivations or actions of a non-human intelligence, but we don't know humans pretty well. We have a history of seeing what the government is capable of doing and has done, so we can reverse engineer those actions, right? But the phenomenon itself, and as you, you know, you've heard, we've gotten, we've gone to great lengths to explain how there appears to be a pattern of conduct that goes over millennia. It's not really acting any differently today than it ever has. It's simply our interpretation of it that has changed. And it, and the phenomenon has this, this strange ability to present itself in such a form that it tends to cater to our individual sensitivities. And I think it's always been that way. That's why they've been interpreted throughout history in so many different ways. And I don't know that we've explained that yet, but in the series, we're trying to make connections or I'm trying to make an argument for the fact that these spirits and angels and you name it, the fey, the fey and all these different paranormal type things are all connected in some way. Again, watching their conduct, not necessarily their appearance, but the messages that are related, the types of encounters that I think that they're very fundamental to who we are as a species. Let me throw a good old MK ultra log on the fire, because I think you guys are all too warmhearted. Too much of that Texas kind of love going on. I have a darker, darker look at this. Have you ever heard of MK ultra sub project 39? So I know you haven't because I never had it. No one has. This is where they actually, and this is like documented, like sued a bunch of people, people went to jail and all this shit so that the documents come out. They were working with mind controlling and trying to figure out how to take serial killers, most of whom had, you know, sexual serial killers who are in jail, maximum security. And they wanted to work with and try and do their, you know, Sirhan, Sirhan version 7.8, which is kind of interesting to think. Think how long ago Sirhan, Sirhan did that thing. And then think like you guys sometimes talk about like airplane technology, you know, I'm like, this one back there, imagine what we have now. Hey, imagine from that level, if they could do that to Sirhan, Sirhan in 1960s, what level of mind control have they mastered? We know E.T. has a level of mind control that's like super duper. We don't know how far it is. And then we see these guys doing this stuff with serial killers in jail and then trying to hide their tracks. What wouldn't they do? So to think that they would, you know, so I can buy into part of what you're saying, Kyle, is there's some honest good people there that they didn't know they're military guys. They're trying to do their job and then they find out and they're scared and they're trying to protect. But there's some evil mofos in this thing that will do anything that will be attracted to the evil that they're finding in E.T. that is just as malevolent as we are here. And that's what the data is showing. And you know, just one other little tidbit I have to throw out because it's another great little tidbit I picked up from this series and I use all the time. Is it some Scientology L. Ron Hubbard guy? He goes, oh, mind control. That's easy. You know, here's what I'm working on that's kind of more difficult and, you know, summoning Satan and all the rest of that. That's hard. Mind control and all these, that's a piece of cake. I didn't think I was going to get to say this, but I think, I think the guys will appreciate this. We'll get to that. Yeah, I think you'll find the next. I think you'll find the next couple of episodes. Very interesting Alex. I think we're going to go very, very deep into that rabbit hole. Probably a lot deeper than you would expect. You think these guys are going to, are you guys going to come along? Russ, Kyle, are you coming along with it? Yeah, we're all right. But look, if you, I'm, I did stick up for some government people there for a little bit. So just take it easy on me, oh boy. Yeah, I didn't mention the part where, you know, the guys that decide to bring about the antichrist out in the desert. I'm just like, screw you, you're an asshole. You know, there's plenty of those people. And I get what you're saying, Alex. You're just trying to point out that there's evil involved in this as well. And you're totally right. And you have to take that into account because again, when you're trying to look at the actions of government people and non-governmental people, you know, we're not always talking about people in the government, like L. Ron Hubbard, but you're, you have to take into account that some people are really evil. They're bad, you know, and, and that they will do, and given enough power, they'll do really bad stuff. And so your, your point there that, you know, that they were messing with mind control technology a long time ago, and what are they doing now? It's, it's a good question. Yeah, it is. Good one. Well, particularly, I think how it relates to this conversation and you guys have brought this, you know, I hear you Marty, you got some more cards that you're holding close to your vest, but there is no doubt that the, the malevolence of the phenomenon is somewhat of a question mark, but we can nail down some of it. I mean, some of it, you can't walk past the, you know, I was raped by a reptilian data set, you know, you can, you can kind of pick here and there, but there's, there's data there. Yes. That's right. I was hinted at this a little bit on our desk or anything, but one point that I've made is that when, when we're talking about how the government has exploited anything, let's say that they've learned from the phenomenon. Most often, almost entirely, the focus is on aerospace applications. We see, oh, you know, can we gain a better propulsion system or a cloaking system or something along those lines? And I'm, and I constantly telling people what makes you think that the application of their technology, of this advanced technology is limited to those type of mechanical devices. Just consider their ability to manipulate mankind, their ability to play with your emotions, to play with your thoughts, to affect, you know, we've, again, we've gone into this quite a bit in a series of how people have lost their lives because they believe in this stuff so much. What is it play? What mechanisms are at play that leads to that kind of control over somebody's actions where they would actually give up their life for, because something told them they had to do something. Think of the military applications for such technology. Yeah. And then there's the, you know, we went through many accounts of people getting what I guess you would call downloads, like flashes of information that lead to patents. You know, how often is that happening? Would, you know, would a government organization find out about that and say, well, this is really possible. And then can we learn how to make it take place? Of course they would, you know, seeking secret information there. Well, I want to turn this around on you, Alex. Where are you going? Where is your mind going with all this? You've listened to all the episodes. You've dove into this topic and you're also done a lot of research on evil and consciousness. What do you think is going on? Well, you know, you know what? I would just pick up on what we were saying and I appreciate that you guys are willing to kind of speculate and go those places because to me those are some of the best moments in this series when we kind of hear you guys kind of playing around with these different positions because that's what I think we're all doing in our head. And one of the places that I take it recently is and it's kind of hard. It's hard for even me to do and you touched on it a little bit, Russ, is that what if you were to really be Machvelli and put yourself in their position and say, OK, look, here's the way this thing plays out. Number one, we've got to have a one world government. I mean, it just doesn't make sense. 140, you know, these little tribes running around doing all their own thing. It just big scheme. We've seen how the galaxy works out. It doesn't work out that way. And then the next thing you'd say is, you know, we're kind of got a lot of people here and some of them. Maybe we don't need quite as much of that. You know, do you kind of again just naturally fall into OK, well, what can I do? I can provide them these services. I can provide them health water, this and that. I can provide them money. What if there were just fewer of them that I had to do that for kind of thing? So I think if you take that line of reasoning really far and take it beyond the US of A and the flag and the stuff like that and you put it on that level of an ET perspective and you have multiple ET's species, agendas in your head, I think it's really easy to come to a lot of places where it wouldn't even sound evil. It would sound like a greater good. Yeah. Yeah. That makes me think of to the aspect of this that is that starts merging into the angels and demons side of things. As far back as you go in the ancient texts, there is a policy on one side of less humans. That's right. One side or another. Right. I mean, one of the oldest stories is like these two main guys in Key and Enlil and Enlil is just like, yeah, kill most of them and we just need a few slaves. That's right. So there is definitely that aspect. And if it is connected, then this is not all warm and fuzzy alien stuff. It's not going to be fun. Yeah. It's not space brothers. Right. Yeah. Space brothers. And so he brings up Enlil and Enlil and again, a modern take on them might be that they were their gods. They were their human. And you have the same, a lot of the very similar elements built into these guys. There's the evil, the controlling the sort of one world government like I'm in charge. And then there's the trickster, the beneficiary, the one who gives technology to mankind. We were just talking about people secretly giving technology to mankind, starting up secret brotherhoods and trying to trying to keep man out as much as possible out from under the thumb of the Enlil side. I mean, the stories are all over the place, so it seems like, and this is another reason why I've been fascinated with it, is it seems like, and I think Marty is probably getting at this as well, but it seems like this is part of who we are in the sense that we've been living with this phenomena since as far back as you care to go. You know, and we have, we have a civilization or a continuous line of civilizations that have been recording these stories, but who, I mean, who knows how far back it goes. Hundreds of thousands of years maybe. And it seems like maybe in the past they had a better grasp of what it was that was going on, because they make no bones about who it was and what, right, you know, what the deal is. There might have been a little less deception on the part of the phenomena in the past at some point. Yeah, one real big stumbling block that we run into constantly is the labels that we use. Certain words automatically invoke, you know, thoughts of religious, you know, viewpoints and things like that. So sometimes we're using a term that's really more of a placeholder, not necessarily used in the context as it might be viewed from a particular religious standpoint or, you know, that's where the angel and demon labels come in. And I'm sure you heard quite a bit of discussion about the Collins elite and this cabal within the U.S. government that is comprised of fundamentalist Christians who think that this is all demonic and shouldn't be messed with. And, you know, I've tried to provide a lot of information because I think it's possible, you know, we talk about these psyops, right? I think this group exists. I think there has been enough reference to them to prove that there really is something to this when you see how many programs have been shut down by this group. But I think the tendency is to leave that, oh, these guys are just using their religious beliefs to hold back information, right, to withhold information from the public. But when you start looking at the descriptions used a lot of times, like, for example, I recently saw an interview with Brandon Fugel, the owner of Skinwalker Ranch. And he's describing some of the encounters and the interviewer asks, how would you describe this intelligence? And he's responsible, oh, it's definitely malevolent, you know, and it has its hostile and you hear that over and over and over. And, you know, I know, I saw, I listened to Grant Cameron recently and he's talking about it and he goes, you know, when you look at the balance of it, he goes, I kind of side with those guys, it looks demont, you know. And again, I think it's because when you hear that term demon or demont, you automatically make the association with Christianity or with religion. Maybe a demon is just a type of being. It's, maybe it's, and it's a belief system. It's, it doesn't have to be religious per se. And I think that that's true throughout our discussions. In other words, there does appear to be more than one already involved in whatever is manipulating mankind. Because we see, you know, we kind of take the bramley-esque gods of Eden perspective that we're all puppets on a string, right? Now I use this, this thing I said that the guys got a kick out of. I said, the last thing the government wants the public to believe is that Jiminy Cricket is real, right, that we actually have this little voice talking to us or guiding us, right? And I think that those type of beliefs tend to lean in the direction of organized religion. But I don't know that that necessarily, they don't have to. In other words, there can be just like a government might have the ability to influence your, your thought processes. Maybe another intelligence has the ability to do the same. You know, I just published an interview with a guy named Dr. Bob Davis and terrific guy, super smart, well-credentialed academic background before he got into, but he's had an encounter and he was part of the free organization when they did that big survey of contactees. And the headline that they always lead with, I'm really surprised here, Grant Cameron, I'm sure he had the other part of that because Grant is all about love and light. Yeah, he loves the space brothers. Yeah, yeah, space brothers. But the data, and I really pushed Bob on this and he really stood up and said, no, I know this science and the data is solid, the way that we've collected it. And 80% of people view their experiences positive. And there's a lot of that it lines up with positive near-death experiences and spiritually transformative experiences. And I don't know quite what to make that. And I don't know if the data really is solid, but I'm not, I don't want to go all the demonic thing and the negative thing because there's also, again, this data that's coming back and saying, that's just like down here, you know, most of the people you meet are pretty freaking cool and want to raise a good family and live a good life and be good to each other. It's only a small percent that have really kind of messed up. But I tell you, before we run out of time, because there's so many topics we could talk about, I want to shift gears and I want to make sure we talk about this one other thing I'm super interested in. And it always seems to come up in this dialogue. And I would put the word singularity to it. And whenever we think of singularity, you know, we always think of the technology, you know, and our computer is going to be so smart and the AI and all that. And that's one part of it. But the other part of the singularity is like the genetic singularity. Like are we at a point where we're now able to manipulate the genome in the same way that it looks like ET has been manipulating the genome? And are we reaching some kind of crossover point with there? So are we reaching a crossover point with AI? Are we reaching a crossover point with genetics? Are we reaching a crossover point with we don't know what to call it in terms of spiritual and this extended consciousness, you know, screen memory and stuff like that, that technology. And does that put us, and I always hesitate to say this because it sounds so hokey. Are we at a special point in time where we're kind of heading towards this crossover where we're going to be thinking about this stuff totally differently because we're going to be able to do it ourselves? And is that part of what's cooking up here and why this is so relevant to us right now? I have a different take on this. I'll let the guys, their vision first. Well, yeah, the genetic and technological singularity, you know, I don't know. I've thought about this quite a bit and I understand the concept. The question you asked, like are we at a special point in history? I have been thinking about that recently too. Kyle and I just finished doing, we just finished going through the character of physical law by Richard Feynman and he says in one of his lectures there that we are in a special point in history in his mind because the kind of discovery that's happened in physics during his lifetime is not something that can continue forever. And we live in the middle of it and that's kind of a special thing. It's sort of like, you know, it's sort of like the exploration of the world. You can only do it once. So is it a special time? And then the other question, of course, that comes to my mind and I'm not, I know I sound like I'm getting far away from what you're talking about, Alex, but I'll get back to it is, have we done this before? You know, because our podcast focuses on ancient mysteries and to me, I have wondered, you know, humans have been around 400,000 years at least. How many times has this happened? Have we gone through singularities before? Is the fact that when we look back in history and we see like this civilization seems to disappear around 6,000 years ago, but there's indications that maybe it's been around longer. Have we gone through singularities before that have been destructive to us? You know, we know that there have been catastrophic destructions of the of the planet in terms of climate like the younger dryus. So has this happened to us before? Is it a special place? Is there such a thing as a singularity and can it can it result in either a brand new, you know, brave new world in a good way or a bad way? I don't know. But I do wonder if there's some connection with there. Okay, I'll tie this back again to Enki and Enlil and what you were saying about the possibility of evil being involved with this. The Enlil, Enlil had his followers, you know, and you just wonder like, why would you follow that guy, the one who wanted to kill off humans? But he had his followers. He was a powerful God. And, you know, and he's basically in charge of the governments in those stories, right? So Enki is always the guy in the background. So yes, Enlil has his followers. And the phenomena that seems to evolve with us across enormous amounts of time. Is it a giant control mechanism to keep those singularities from taking place or to germinate them so that they do take place because it causes a collapse? These are the ways I think about that question. That's pretty good. You got me there. That's a good one. He got me too. I don't know. That was phenomenal. That was phenomenal. It really was. Well, thank you. Yeah, I don't, I haven't really thought about that question that you're pointing out, though. But I just, I'm not sure that we're there yet. And I'm kind of skeptical about the idea that let's say we create, you know, artificial intelligence or whatever, or maybe we discover all the laws of physics. I don't think that this is a bad thing necessarily. I don't, I'm actually more on the, like not on the negative side of artificial intelligence. I don't think we're going to build like giant armies of robots that are going to be like, okay, these guys suck, and then wipe us out. Like it's just, I don't know. I don't see it going that way. But thinking of, you know, I can only think of the, the demonic side here of this, you know, going back to the UFO phenomena that if they're seeing us make rapid advancements and being able to achieve, there's something I'd have to bring up the ancient texts as well in these destructive events. And, and, and I'll just use the Tower of Babel, for example, the reason that gods destroy the tower is because humanity is about to discover something. And the reason that God says that they will then become like us. Yes. So I can't think too much about the Space Brothers aspect of this in that scenario. It seems like, yes, the point is destroy them right before they get to that point where they become like that, like us. So yeah, that's a great point too. If that's not really going on, I don't know why those stories are there, but they are there, and they're, they've always fascinated me in the ancient texts, these, these times of destruction and why it seems always to be the same thing. We will become like them. All right, Marty, you know, you're, you're, we know you're waiting there in the wings. Well, again, I look at things, I try to look at things from different perspectives and that question in my mind raises a different question. And it's, is consciousness or spirituality unique to mankind? Does ET have consciousness, spirituality? Because if they do, and what we're talking about is like, in words, us modifying our, our biology or DNA or anything is, is, is, you know, it's along the same lines of customizing your car, right? Does your car get too good? Do you, in words, is that the driver? Is the car the driver or are you the driver? And so I don't know how fundamentally important it is in the grand scheme of things. Maybe that's the way things are supposed to be. I firmly believe that there is a spiritual component to this. And I say that for many reasons, not the least of which is personal experience. And it's not anything I ever talk about on the show or anything. But I have my reasons for being on this journey. And I have my reasons for searching for answers and for making some of these connections that don't necessarily seem like this. So I, I, you know, I can, I can say that, yeah, I have concerns about AI, but they're not, they're not as big of a concern as, as what I see the, the phenomenon being such an integral part of human history, that I cannot believe that it's not explored and not more well known, you know, by academics. Oh, you know, it's, it's interesting because I, I, when I was interviewing Whitley Strieber, I asked him kind of, we're talking about all this stuff and then I come. So how far away are they? And I was talking about on this consciousness level, because that's what interests me the most too. And his answer was instant, like reflexive. He goes, Oh, they're right there. They are right there. And that's the sense that I get too, is that all the bells and whistles about technology and all the rest of that, it's like, no, they're right there working through the shit the same way that we are. And they're facing the, they're facing their near death experience life review where they have to go, Oh gosh, when I sapped that one guy in his room, man, that was really cringe, you know, I, that's, that's kind of my, my, my take on it. And you know, I think of a Feynman, you know, Feynman's famous for saying that there's plenty of room at the bottom, you know, because that's kind of what he was all about and the nanotechnology and all that rest of that. I wonder if spiritually, there isn't plenty of room at the top. And by that, I mean, if you look at the accounts of where consciousness, like I'm not religious, but if you just look at the accounts like the near death experience accounts, you look at the LBE accounts shamanic accounts, you guys have pulled a lot of this stuff into this into this series. But there's all these levels of consciousness, and they keep going higher and higher and higher. And we haven't even begun to understand and can't pretend we understand. So maybe we are in this very kind of fish bowl-ish kind of levels where we think there's all these levels, but there's plenty of room above that where we're mind blown kind of thing. Yeah, and I also, yeah, that makes me think of, is it us at the top on the other side? You know, because I know you've, Alex, you've interviewed so many people and you've done so much, so many great shows on this concept of the near death experiences and what happens to people. And what if all of this interaction that we're having is just with ourselves in some way or another? Whatever it is that we are when we're not here. And that's another thing that you can find in ancient texts and plenty of different religions and everything like this, this idea that there is this hierarchy. Are you a simulation theory guy? Are you welcome open to the simulation theory? I mean, we discuss it, you know, but I'm not, I don't know if I would buy it. But yeah, it's an interesting idea. What do you think? You're in the simulation? Are you a simulation guy? I don't know. I can't go there. Kyle, how about you? I'm just, I'm like, look, if it's a simulation, we still got to figure out how the damn thing works. So I don't really care. I just, I think it's silly. It's like kicking the can down the road to me. Yeah. I mean, that's, yeah, the question is, what do they mean by simulation? Is it like a game somebody's running? And if so, then you're, you're still in it and you got to figure it out, right? Yeah. Yeah. But I don't think near-death experiences, they don't seem to be like, aw, waking up in the gaming chair. You know, it's something else, right? It's, it isn't like that. They go into some place and then they're remembering that they've had many lives or something, that there's something, they're a part of something much larger. And that's what I mean. Is the phenomena that we've been talking about this, a lot of this angels and demons and, you know, the interactions, is it really with that part of the universe? Marty, if you had to guess, where do you think this phenomenon sits in this hierarchy of consciousness kind of thing? Are they at the top? I think there's, I kind of follow the model of the chain of being where it's the phenomenon is, represents multiple links within this chain. We're in the chain, but there are other links above us. And that might explain why there are different manifestations. And when I say that, I'm not talking about, oh, there's the reptilian and the grader. That's not at all what I mean. What I mean is there are non-physical aspects and physical aspects. And these might be characteristics of different links. You know, as far as the simulation, they're excited. I think that I tend to view us from a, I guess, from a consciousness spirituality aspect or perspective. I think we're more, rather than seeing it as a simulation, I think maybe it's like the universe manifesting a physical representation to experience itself. We're all part of the same thing. It's not here for our entertainment or someone else's entertainment. I think it's a function of evolution. You know, one last thing I just threw on the table on that. You was talking to, through email, Robert Hastings, the guy who did the UFO nuke stuff, phenomenal work, 40 years collected all this data, all these guys you interviewed. And a lot of people don't know, but he's an experiencer himself. And he's, you know, the next generation experiencer, the multiple generation experiencer, his mother was an experiencer, although she has kind of like shady memories or sketchy memories of it, which is the whole other thing we could get into from the genetic standpoint, too. What does that mean? And then the Nolan stuff, you guys, there's like a man of things you could talk about. There's science, emerging science, I'm into that now. So I asked Hastings, so the thing that's so cool about Robert Hastings is it kind of drives a stake in the ground. ET turned off the nukes, right? So we don't know how that's possible. They're all separate. Turns off 10 nukes. ET goes to Ukraine, and we don't find this out until after the wall comes down, ET turned on the nukes over in the Ukraine. And then when I talked to Hastings, he said, you know, actually, there's reports they turned them on here, too. So that's kind of, so crossover now between the mind, mental and the physical, which, you know, really throws things. They're doing it with their mind, but they're also could do it physically, and they're reading the mind of all this stuff. But here's the guy, I guess, bearing the lead. I go, you mentioned before, 20 years ago, you mentioned that you thought this was kind of space brothers like saying, be careful with these weapons, they could destroy you. And he goes, I detect, I said, I detect you have a different thing. And he said, yeah, he says, now I kind of see it as, it's kind of in our mutual interest that you don't blow up this thing. And I wonder how you guys unpack that. Because I think that's one of the threads that's coming through this is we're a lot closer to these others. And we're kind of in the same boat. Yeah. Well, I have to bite my tongue. It would be nice to have more data, like if, you know, they're working on fusion, right, as a power source, it'd be interesting to find out if when they actually figure that out, then it gets shut down. Or is that why we haven't figured it out yet? That could be another question. There seems to be a problem when they, when they're working on the fusion that like the more energy they put in, it suddenly starts getting cooler. Oh, yeah. Like it's being stopped. Like what if it's being stopped on the individual experimental level? So that's weird. I've never thought about that before. But one really cool aspect of this interview is a very strange dichotomy here that Alex, you've interviewed so many key players in this that were like opposite each other in that I have not had direct communication with these people that you interview, but I'm connecting the dots behind the scenes on all these people. And there are individuals that you've interviewed that have provided clues to the question you just asked. And that's part of the presentation. I'm going to be trying not to be too evasive and trying to at least provide some answer. But there's, there may be understandable reasons for why we see certain actions like this. And it's not, and I can't say it's not because we're destroying the planetary. That's the path of least resistance response. You know, are you, you know, are you our creator? Yes, I am your creator. Are you, are you here to save us? Yes, I'm here in words. That's yet you look the apocalyptic visions go back throughout history. Those same things that telling people now they were telling people 2000 years ago, 8000 years ago. That's not what it is. There's, there's something else going on there. It's still, it's a legitimate, a legitimate reason. And we might, it's understandable, but it's not the obvious. Yeah, it's it. I mean, the, you know, one way to take that, which you just said, Alex, that if it's like it's in our mutual best interests is I mean, a simple answer to that is that we're some kind of experiment. And if we blow ourselves up, they have to start over. I mean, that's, that's one possible, you know, they're like, dang it, not again. Right. The rats committed suicide guys. We got to start over. We just wasted 10,000 years. Yeah. But you also can't overlook the fact that this reinforces the, the idea that there's more than one party, you know, because it would seemingly appear that one party is providing us with knowledge on how to create certain technologies while the other side is trying to prevent us from blowing ourselves up. Right. Which again, it goes back to the Enki and Enlil. You know, one is giving knowledge and the other was always mad that they seem to have this information and then they want to sit like, let's wipe the slate clean. You know, so turning them on and turning them off. I also, I'm a huge fan of science fiction. I've read thousands of sci-fi books and there's plenty of, you know, just, just, I know it's fiction, but there's plenty of ideas about how, what exactly would be the scenario if we end up interacting with some kind of extra stress. And one thing they would want to do is find out the level of our technology and they'd play with it, turn it on and turn it off, whether they're interested in us destroying ourselves or not, doesn't matter. But yeah, you want to find out, you know, what is, what exactly is the, what, what, what are they doing here and can we manipulate it? You know, or maybe you're just trying to scare them if you're the aliens, you know, turn it off, turn it off, freak them out. It's part of the, it's part of the whole operation. Do you guys know the Brandenburg research? John Brandenburg, the physicist, really brilliant guy, he's not fake at all. The nuclear weapons signature from Mars, 250,000 years. So that would play into it's, you know, they kind of know what, they kind of know what these things do. Yes. Yes. That has overlapped with the Joe McModigal as well. And his, what he saw. Oh yeah. That's right. Yes. And then, but back to your point, Marty, you know, just again, toss another little tidbit on the table, because in the near death experience community, there was a guy named Kenneth Ring, I don't know if you guys have ever heard of him, but he did, and he kind of dabbled in, he crossed over and got into the abduction thing too and ET experience. But he had a bunch of people back in 1988 who were ND ears and were predicting the kind of environmental catastrophe. And they're all prophesizing about things and stuff like that. Again, folks, we're talking about this nine part series and Marty's already tipping his hand. He's got part 10 and 11 right there, ready to come out. So stick around for this because you, the questions we haven't answered will be answered on Brothers of the Serpent. No answers. Episode 10 is going to be titled, We'll be getting to that later. Yeah, we'll be getting to that later. Great. So again, the trickster thing, you know, prophesizing about stuff that, you know, doesn't come true. I love the way you guys put it. You know, like, oh yeah, is it that? Oh yeah, what's that? Oh yeah, it's whatever it is. Yes, that's right. And they'll do this thing where they make some prophecies that do come true. And then they make the big one that the person publicizes and that one completely fails. And it's like you see this pattern, like what is the purpose of that? You know, what is the whole point of it? Another thing I've thought about is if, and this is a hugely speculative question, but if all of these accounts seem to indicate that we are being visited by or manipulated by or however you want to put it, some kind of very powerful, something that we basically can't understand at all. It may be beyond our ability to understand it at this point, even though people are working on it. Maybe there are some people that do understand it, but the point is that it's very far beyond us. How much of what we see about the universe can even be trusted. And I'm talking about cosmological observations. What if so much of our current understanding about physics has come from looking out in space and observing stars and looking at interactions between objects out there. And if you were interested in keeping the human race from making certain kinds of advancements, and you had the ability to make people see or not see what you want, then how can we trust any of our observations about what's going on? I mean, could they be manipulating our science at that level is what I'm asking? Yeah, I mean, as Kyle pointed out, I mean, to contemplate, and I hadn't thought of it, but I think it's an interesting place to go, down to the level of the experiment. Forget the whole thing. Down to, oh, wait a minute, that guy over there is starting to do this on his experiment. You gotta throw that as a... That's right. Keep it from working. Some of these guys perhaps were overlooked, and they found out certain things before the guys were paying attention. And then you end up with some, you know, these weird claims that's like, oh, this guy had invented this thing, and this is how it worked. And then it just vanishes. And then everybody's trying to remake it, but they're like, nope, nope. Yeah. Yeah. Make sure it never works again. Yes. So you end up with a cold fusion effect. Well, you guys, this has been so, so awesome. Marty, okay, spill the beans. What's coming up? Part 10. Oh, man. I've been working on this one for, oh, going probably seven months now. Yeah. I have to give them time sometimes. Yeah. A lot of... Well, see, they have their back to pyramids crowd that... That's right. That's when we put too many UFOs, you know, episodes together. The stick to the pyramids crowd. Yeah. They get pretty, they get pretty aggressive. Yeah. So we try to sprinkle in the UFO stuff. And it, you know, admittedly, it can get pretty fringy. But I try to bring it down to some scientific basis. Like this, these next couple of episodes are very data driven. There's a lot of substantiating documentation from a lot of the stuff I'm going to be presenting. And it's going to be stuff that you're pretty familiar with. And then probably adding in some things you may not have heard about. More recent revelations related to older projects and programs. But again, sometimes when you look at them individually, they don't have, they don't have quite the same significance as they do when you look at the macro overview of the past century and seeing where develop, developments appeared to be going and that's a little, that's probably about as much as I can say. Oh, that's being very, being very shady on that. And, hey, Kyle, before we, before we do go, man, you got excellent work with, there it is, I had to pull up $50 dynasty, tell folks about the band, check it out. You'll hear the music if you listen to the show, but man, great, great work. Really, really, really appreciate that. Yeah, so $50 dynasty is my band. We've been together since I think, was it 2007 or six or something like that? It's been a long time. We're good friends, close friends, and we've all got lives, but we've been working on this project, Procession, for many years on the weekends and we just released it this past Solstice, and it's a 12 song album. And it has a lot of esoteric things put in. It's like kind of, you know, it's in the light of this, all of these mysteries that we've been digging into for many years on the podcast. So you'll find a lot of that in there if you really pay attention. And it's free. And it is free. It's also value for value. That's right. You know, you can download it for free. It's also out on the streaming platforms everywhere, but you can get it from our website, 50dollardynasty.com. I've listened. It's phenomenal. Great. I mean, it's incredible. Music is a whole other thing, and like I have no talent. So when I hear people that are really talented, like, how does that even work? How do you do that, you know? Lots of time. So this has been absolutely terrific. Russ, why don't you kind of take us out with maybe telling how this fits in with the larger project because you guys are kidding around about the the pyramid stuff. You guys bring, you guys really bring some great stuff to that too. And it like, I think people will pick up on it all along. That is informing some of these discussions too. And the way it's anchoring you guys, you know, because you've already brought it up on this kind of grander scale time wise that really, you know, you're not getting pulled into the Lou Elizondo stuff because you're going like, oh, I got thousands of years. I got a process. I'm not worried about this guy who just showed up two years ago. That's right. It is, that's a great way to put it. The overall point of our podcast, which was to explore ancient mysteries and human history and the origins of ourselves, and of course, also Earth history and everything else that I think I feel like this subject, the UFO subject, and of course, in the broader sense, evil itself and consciousness are all tied in. Like you can't, you can't look at some of the ancient structures and these ancient civilizations and the texts that they left us and the buildings and the architecture that they left us, or even how sometimes they seem to spring out of nowhere with just there's nothing and then suddenly bam, they're building megalithic structures and inventing agriculture, you know, alongside of it and mathematics and everything else you can think of, that all of this ties in. It's one thing that you can really look at this as one subject or that they merge together. But yes, the ancient civilization aspects and the ancient texts do help Kyle and I take an interesting and fun view of the UFO subject because I do think it's ancient. And so that's why every time we have Marty on, I don't care what the stick to the pyramids crowd thinks, I think it's part of the same mystery. So yeah, and we're just giving those people some flak. We've never said aliens built the pyramids, but it's the same thing. But they did. And it was us. Well, thanks for having us on, Alex. It was a blast. Oh, thank you guys so much. And can't wait. Can't wait for the next one. Keep up this awesome work that you guys are bringing forth to all of us. Thank you. Thank you very much. Thanks again to Russ, Kyle and Marty for joining me today on Skeptico. The one question to Tia from this interview, the big, big, big question is, what is the agenda? What is this whole UFO ET thing all about? Why settle for anything other than the big question? Let me know your thoughts, jump on over to the forum, tell me over there, reach out to me at E-WayUCfit. I'm gonna do it for this one. Until next time, take care. Bye for now.