 Hey, Tim. Hey, Tracy. I have to leave and come back in because I'm logged in the wrong account. I'll be right back. Sounds good. We make sure. Well, we make sure Tim's left before I do that. Right. Apologies for being in the wrong zoom room with the wrong zoom address. Let me get. YouTube turned on and then we will get going. Sounds good. We are still waiting on Stefan who should be our presenter today as well. So. A couple of minutes to trickle in here and. No worries. Just because. And we'll give it to fame and a few other folks a chance to join us. I am in another zoom room just in case. Somebody uses the old link. So we've got that going. Awesome. Thank you for doing that. No worries. No worries. Tim, just so you know, once we kick it off. I'll trim out the first four, three or four minutes of the recording so we don't have dead air and. No one has to listen to my voice talking about turning on YouTube and stuff. So. Sounds good. Appreciate that. It is being streamed to the hyper ledger YouTube account. It'll be available. It's available right now, but it's also. We'll be available under the identity. Playlist that we have. We'll be available under the identity. We'll be available under the identity. All right. Tim. Tim, you got it. I'm just going to mute and keep an eye on the other room. Sounds good. We had is it 805. So we'll go ahead and get started here today. Welcome everyone. This is the identity special interest group at hyper ledger. And. Today we have. Hi, I'm Steve. I'm Steve. Hi, I'm Steve. Hi, I'm Steve. Hi, I'm Steve. How are you? I'm not quite. Well, that's my first name, Stefan and my last name is we MOU. Why. But don't worry. All right. Awesome. Yeah. He's here to share with us a little bit about. E IDAS two and the European wallet initiative. And yeah. And before that, we have a quick summary of some other working group statuses. We can do a quick rundown of what everyone's been up to. And I just confirmed you guys can see my screen. Looking good. Awesome. Thank you. So to start us off, we have just a few announcements. We have some upcoming speakers on July 27th and August 10th. So come back if these presentations look. Interesting to you. There's also a coffee papers open for. Yeah, spring or open. Looks like. And then we have a meeting on running hyperledger areas in the browser with a non creds on July 18th. So. I believe you can just sign up and join right here at this link. Getting into some working group updates. We have the hyperledger and the contributors working group met on the fourth. Was anyone able to attend this meeting that would like to give us a quick summary. It looks like they just held their indie summit and they were doing a quick recap on how all that went. The areas working group met on the 12th. Was anyone able to attend this session? Looks like they were looking at some did peer and community coordinated updates there. And if you'd like more information, all of these links will take you there. Most recent activity. The areas bifold group. Met on the fourth was anyone able to attend this session. All right. Well, yeah, that looks like they were just doing some bifold updates. This is cloud agent Python. Met on the 11th. Are there any updates from anyone who attended this meeting. Okay, it looks like they're working on some did peer stuff. And move on from there. Areas framework JavaScript now the sixth. Was anyone able to attend this session. Tim this is Sean I was not able to attend the session but on Tuesday we had a pretty great workshop with Ariel. Kareem and Baron from the areas framework JavaScript team showing off 0.4.0 the new release. As well as how to use credentials with areas framework JavaScript how it fits into the overall ecosystem. That is also on YouTube. If anyone would like to watch it they did a really great job of sharing some of the hard work that's got into that community recently. And I was unable to mute fast enough but occupy was recently mentioned, there's an organization called lisi, which has announced the release of its wallet that uses occupy uses an on creds and I believe they're using Indy through ID Union. And so that that came out recently and we're reaching out to them to do a blog post to share some of their experience. Sorry. No very cool. Thank you for sharing. So, awesome. I think that covers areas stuff. That's not recent last meeting. I do realize it's summer and not everyone is meeting super regularly as they used to I think we've covered those. I think that, at least according to my list concludes any updates unless anyone else has anything they'd like to share. So, I'm going to go ahead and hand the floor off to define is that closer I'm sorry I'm. Yeah, yeah, that's fine. Thank you. Okay. I'll share my screen. I think this is it. Okay, now can you see my screen as well. Looks good. You're looking good. Okay. Well good morning first. I'm not sure I know anyone here. In fact, I've been interacting with the pin for two years in fact we used to be colleagues a long time ago. Anyway, and the pin has, you know, invited me to talk to about the regulatory initiatives in Europe, especially the one concerning digital identity. Although I have to say I've always been quite explicit to the pin and in that. He's very focused on the LT and blockchain and and I said to him repeatedly. Well, it's very interesting but you're going to be disappointed because in Europe, when it comes to digital identity there is only any mention of the LT of blockchain so the way he said well never mind. You know it's still interesting to know what's what's happening so okay. Anyway, so as, as you can see from the. Well, from the copper page of college slide. I'm going to talk a little bit about digital identities in the European regulatory environment and it's. It's certainly major work and the going with the revision of the so called E I dash regulation. So we are up to today we're still living with the E I dash one regulation, the one that it was enacted in 2014. And there's a lot of work going on, trying to define a new architecture for digital identity schemes, which is called as to. The core that project is the digital identity wallet so let's see a little bit what's, what's happening here. So, yes, as often in Europe. It's, you know, as soon as that's something happening there's a new regulatory initiative so you can't really. You can't really say that you know the European Commission is not active in that field, it is everybody's talking about digital identity and there's. There's a lot of movement and, and a lot of change being being implemented so the main effort is the revised. regulation, as mentioned earlier, we're we're still, you know, living with the one voted in 2014 came into effect in 2016. And even in 2018 for digital identity schemes it's a fairly imperfect construction. It's based on two pillars, one is the mutual recognition of digital identity scheme and one is the regulation for so called trust services. I come to that later but trust services are primarily electronic signature and the like. It's been very positive on the electronic trust services side but very disappointing on the digital identity side and because of that disappointment, there has been a new proposal that has been announced nearly two years ago in fact over two years which is expected to reach the its legislative process in the coming weeks, the school is not the only piece of regulation that is making reference to digital identities, I don't know if you've seen there's there's been literally last in the last few days there's been a digital year draft proposal, which was, which was presented. Again, much to the pins regret a very little mention of the LT, but I think there's a good reason for that it's primarily related to the fact that offline connectivity is a requirement and the reconciling offline connectivity with the LTS is a little bit of a challenge, maybe have different view in that. And also there's, you know, complete revamp of the European anti money laundering architecture with uniform know your client rules and these are centered around digital identities for remote ID perfect so it all fits together in a way. But there's no. Again, there's no direct reference to the LT in the I just to nor in the I just one of course. There is no explicit reason for that it's not mentioned in the, you know, in the explaining three moment memo and prepared for the regulation, but I would say that it's not completely surprising in a European context because I think you have to understand that in Europe, digital identity is viewed as the, you know, the domain reserve a the preserve of member states and governments I have in Europe at least I'm not taking that positive of you about the LT. However, there has, there was initially a reference on the electronic trust services side to electronic leisure services which was sort of indirect way to recognize the LT services. And that was presented by the European Commission in the initial draft of the EIS to regulation. But it's been removed by it was maintained by the European Council document, but it has been removed by the European Parliament now that may seem like convoluted discussion what you have to understand is, I think, currently, the EIS draft is nearing its final, well, the EIS to legislative process is nearing its conclusion there's been a vote been presented by the European Commission been voted by the European Council which is the body representing the European governments, and it's also been voted by the European Parliament but not exactly in certain terms so there is now a sort of reconciling effort to come up with a definitive final version. That will apparently deal has been done literally last week, we'll see what happens. So yeah that's one. As you can see it's a fairly modest construction and it's really two houses in their same roof. So you have the electronic trust services side, which is basically private sector. So you're talking about electronic trust services, a signatures, electronic sales, electronic stamps. It reaches through the messages, electronic web authentications, common rules, technical specification usually they're prepared by the European Etsy which is the European standard specification agency. They are offered by the private sector. So every company who wants to become trust service provider can apply it just has to be certified with a common framework. And once it is certified it can offer trust services throughout the European Union without discrimination they have to be accepted on the same basis. On this side, you're really talking about a completely different construction, you're really talking about an intergovernmental recognition of of of digital identity schemes that have been notified by Member States to the European Commission. So voluntary framework, it has a very public sector focus. That's one of the reasons why it hasn't been successful actually, for example, the, when it was presented the, the, the, the use, one of the use cases that was promoted was a Finnish student controlling in a Spanish university. And instead of doing all the paperwork by paper, and by mail, he would do that electronically at spine but you know how often do you have to do this I mean in your life I mean maybe twice, once twice, but not more than that usually so it's not really worth. Anyway, it's not like paying electronically or anything that comes as a daily occurrence. Another problem was that there are very few on the side there are very few common technical specifications so Member States have considerable freedom to implement digital identity schemes, which led to interoperability issues. So they're not exactly the same that can correspond, you know they do not fit quite well one with another. It's not that easy to make them work together. So interoperability issues and on top of that, it's based on a, on an IT protocol that is, that is now looks quite dated so and does not integrate mobile device usage. So quite successful on the Etra services side. Very disappointing on the ID side. But in spite of that it still remains a landmark regulation for digital identity I think the main reason in that it's the first and if I'm not mistaken it's still the only set of rule organizing the cross border recognition of digital identity that I don't think anywhere in the world you have a framework, a framework that says you know digital identity not coming from that countries are going to be recognized with the same value with same effect in other countries and and it also enshrines the aloe is a level of assurance concept for digital identity it's not I saw of course it's not a unique European concept but it's, it's, you know, it was quite significant and suddenly he is quite structural as it can as an element. I had a slide for the pin but unfortunately it's not here because as mentioned earlier, I made a couple of presentation last year one last year and one two years ago on the very same topic so I was just wondering if the pin was going to think that, you know, it was a repeat of what I had to say at the time. And basically, I suspect none of you have were present at the, you know, when when we made a presentation in 2021 2022. But anyway, what's the latest news. So, the latest news. Oops, sorry. First of all, before we get into this. Maybe we should have word of caution for non European so I guess that's the vast majority of the audience today. I guess is a very ambitious project there's no question that. This is certainly a piece of regulation where you cannot say that the European Commission has lacked ambition. We're looking for the highest level of assurance, the highest level of privacy, the greatest diversity of use cases so reconciling this requirements is guaranteed to be challenging and difficult. We've done that already. And one of the problem that is facing the, the team leading the efforts of is that, you know, technical specifications are not that easy to find in order to cover such a broad spectrum of use cases. Some are only draft form some are not fully stable so it's, you know, it's a difficult decision. The second aspect you have to bear in mind which is that it's a regulatory initiative and it's, it has very obvious very clear, very powerful in fact political backing. And it's, it's seen rightly wrongly as the most tangible initially for European citizens in the digital area. And it's, you know, it's heavily supported by the, I would say the heads of the of the of the European Commission but also the European Council representing governments. And it's, it's a public, you have to understand that it is a public initiative in many ways the member space will notify the digital identity wallet they have discretion in, in defining who will, you know, who will be allowed to present a digital identity and they are legally responsible for that process so they call the shop still. It's taking a lot of time it's already been two years in the making. And I think you really are. I'm still, I think, not even sure with midway. I would consider a five year horizon so basically we still have three years ago. It's not completely. It's not completely surprising given that you know this is an effort that is effectively involving free 30 different countries. And that means that, you know, successes by no means guaranteed but likewise, on the other hand, you know, complete failure is then like this so you know we're probably fit somewhere in the middle, you know which side, where are we going to end up that still there and decided there are many factors that have to be worked out. It's pretty, pretty still under jury still out there are a lot of things that need to be decided still. On the EIS ecosystem. Well, hold on. Maybe I should have been here. So where are we now. So basically the first project was presented in 2021. That's when I made the first presentation to the Pittsburgh. Then there was an AIS expert group set up in October of that year. There was a first version of the architecture and reference framework document presented in 2022. So, you know, the legislative process was, was initiated the first considered by the parliament in October 21 for large scale pilots launch in December of last year, while it design concerns and selected draft regulation approved by the European Council in December of last year approved by the European Parliament in March. And now there's so called Trilog process aiming to reconcile the EU Council and the EU Parliament's position initiated in April. Why is it called a Trilog and not a dialogue because the European Commission is involved as well. However, you may have seen last, well in fact 10 days ago, there was a political agreement and a statement saying that in fact, you know, the representatives of the European Council and of the European Parliament had agreed, settled, found a deal so to speak on the key terms of the European digital identity framework. I've, you know, put extracts of the of the EU Commission communicate. We'll see we haven't seen the final draft, but it's very likely to be somewhere between what has been approved by the European Council was been approved by the European Parliament. There is for you guys who are interested in DLT there is an interesting topic here because the electronic ledger services were struck down by the European Parliament on the basis that you know they are not consistent with an environmentally friendly environment. So they were, you know, for that, you know, the, the, the green movement in Europe is quite strong so they've taken a negative year DLT services and they shut down everything that was even remotely related to DLT in the draft. Whether that will continue will will that position will be upheld in the final draft, we don't know, I mean that's one of the things to see. Anyway, and once that is done, you know, once you have a regulation. It's not, you know, it's not the end of the process by any means, one of the reasons in that because there are quite a few delegated and implementation acts to prepare so they are, you know, second secondary regulation if you wish, that is being mentioned in the in the EIS regulation but not yet drafted so that's, you know, that's another regulatory dimension to consider. And on top of that, there are two other aspect one is the so called architecture reference document this is a document that is defining the technical specifications of the digital identity wallets. If you're interested in that, there's already, well, it's an ongoing document so you know you have is there's an interactive process. There's the first version was published in February last year the current version is the current public version is was probably released in April. And I think the the next one should be available within weeks, or maybe days actually. And I'll mention a little bit about this and on top of that there's a so called reference of reference implementation of the digital identity wallet so there's a consortium that has been assigned or with the task of building a digital identity wallet that will have to be after that that will be by, by member states when notifying their own solution. And on top of that, you have currently four so called large scale pilots that are designed to test the real life usage of the digital identity wallets. There are two use cases that have been prioritized to that effect one is the mobile driving license. And the second one is the identification authentication on for online services but on top of that there are other use cases like health educational credentials is really diplomas. And also finance digital travel credentials so if you look at some of these large scale pilots are public at three of the four I think the fourth is still to be announced but three of them are known. They have website they have already published information about which use case are considering. There isn't that much information yet but you know it's, and they are. There are consortium that are gathering firms from companies from different environments, I've been looking for obvious reasons I've been looking at the financial sector digital finances case. And you can see that, you know, quite a few banks are involved in the there's one large scale pilots that is fully dedicated to payments. And there's another one that is dedicated to digital travel credentials, including payments. And they include most of the big names in Europe on that so you'll learn. We'll see. So what are we know. Yeah, that we've done that we've done that I think we've done. Okay. Just how familiar are you guys with the are with the digital identity what do you I mean, do we need to go through the details presentation or is this something that is quite well known. I think. Go ahead, sorry. Oh, so I was gonna say I think this group would be at least fairly familiar with the, with the wallet. Right, just so just quick recap. Well, it's first of all, you know, there must be creditors that must comply with the common specifications issued, you know, that will be that will appear in the occupation reference document, they have to be issued or provide member states so there's, you know, there's, if a member state does not like your solution, even though it may be a very good solution. No, you know, there's no hope I'm afraid. There must offer a high level of assurance. The must put the users in full control of the wallet. They have to be accepted by for identity proofing by relying parties offering financial and other key services as well as very large online platforms. That's an important aspect, because it means that you know all providers of key services will have to accept digital identity wallet, no matter what. They have to accept electronically tested at stations will have to be free of charge for users. They must be able to create to allow the user to sign with the highest level of uncertainty. So this is a qualified electronic signature. They must allow the user to interact online and offline and the must support strong customer authentication requirements, including for payment that is, incidentally, that is a topic that is creating a lot of tension with the banking sector that is the banking industry that is not really happy and that's an understatement about this. And on top of that, you know, they should be able to strengthen privacy, they should be able to allow several identity profile and should be able to support CBDC interactions so we'll see how far we go in that. Can I ask you a question about the last slide. Yeah, in the early days of self sovereign identity correlation resistance was a very big deal it's it's absolutely something that a lot of organizations looked at as a requirement. The unique identifiers kind of defeat relation resistance. When you say whenever required, who is who is the doing the requiring is it is it a bank is it a state. Is it any entity on a network could require your unique identifier. Okay, that I know what you're talking I know what you're referring to this reference to the unique identifier in the regulation. That is, I think, what it what it came from, surprisingly, is from the it's it's a request or demand depending on how you say it from the tax authorities, because these are, you know, they are saying well some people come up when was one with one identity and the binational they have another identity from another country and we cannot correlate the two. And this is problematic. Don't ask me why but this is apparently quite problematic for tax avoidance proof because it facilitates tax avoidance. That is a great answer thank you. I wasn't expecting that. Yeah, so just to. So, as a, you know that you need to know that but once you know that you can understand why it's in there now people are saying and I think a lot of people including I think you and me are saying hey you know but a unique identifier is the worst thing that can you can think of as a viewpoint because basically it allows anyone to track your interactions and monitor your usage so of course that's highly highly problematic. So there's, there's a tension between these two. I would say competing demands if you wish or objectives. It's going to be. That's one of the topics that is still not completely decided we'll see in the final version how it will be taken care of, I think it's likely to remain as a requirement, but not everybody. I think what was likely to happen is that only certain public sector relying parties will be able to will be allowed to require the unique identifier. That's what I understand. Understood. Thank you so much for that answer. Okay. Um, right. So, at the very, at the very core, you know, the ecosystem is pretty simple you have basically an app provider that publishes the digital, the digital identity wallet on the app. And of course it has to be certified it has to be not only has it got to be certified but it has to be approved by a member state and it has to be notified to the European Commission so it has to be, obviously approved by a state. So once that is done, the wallet user can use the app can download an identity profile that identity profile is effectively provided by so for PID providers, providers of person identification data. And on top of that, you can also have electronically tested attributes, which are issued by effectively trust service providers. And you can combine the two, of course, and those are used to and communicated to relying parties in the normal course of action. So what that means is that you have, you know, a plethora of possible use cases that are can be considered public sector private sector, banking, not banking, health, travel. Virtually no elements, no, no aspect of one's life that cannot be considered or cannot be used by the digital identity wallet. We'll see, again, we'll see how this is going to work in practice but you know the ambition is certainly there. So keep in mind that you know you have public attributes private attributes and you have the ability to sign with the highest level of legal certainty which is a qualified electronic signature the combined effect of those should be quite transformational, assuming it works well. So what I find is that, you know, authorizing have been focusing a lot on the payment use case and I do believe that the ability to interact offline is absolutely key. There's been a fair amount of focus on that. And, and this is also quite relevant for the digital identity wallet to be used with in connection with some bank digital currencies and the digital year in particular. Again, if you're interested at the use case and we should look at the website of the EWD consortium, the potential consortium or the novice consortium, the three publicly known consortia dealing with the preparing working on use cases. So on the technology side, the current version of the AI does mention some technology choices that have been made and what you can see that those choices reflect the so called priority use cases. If you remember one of the priority use cases the mobile driving license are gathering the US you do have Apple has been quite instrumental in deploying mobile driving license on the iPhone. I think basically what is what is considered is it's it's a repeat of that process and so the there is a dedicated ISO standard for that, which is the ISO 18.013 slash five. And that is, you know, that is likely to be used for proximity connections proximity connections being when the wallet user is, let's say physically present with the relying party and is in fact interacting typically with an NFC protocol or or a Bluetooth or or QR code. However, the, I'm not totally convinced that it can be developed beyond the mobile driving license use case because I don't you're familiar with this but it's it's basically transferring to the relying party the the digital photo of the wallet user, which is fine if you're presenting it to a police officer but not so fine if you're presenting it to someone you really don't know and you can trust them so there's also reference to the W3C verifiable credential data model. But it appears to be given second priority compared to the end up ISO 18.0135 specifications. Again, no mention of the LT. You know I'm part of the, I'm not a technology expert so I think, but I have, I'm attending the yeah that's expert group meetings, I have never heard anyone saying look, we should mention the LT. So, why that is, I don't know, I mean I, but it's a fact of life. The other thing that is quite, quite clear is that those specifications are not addressing the relying party authentication. It's basically not addressing the fact that you know maybe in digital interaction you should start from a zero trust basis or principle you should apply zero trust principle and you know you should make sure that the relying party is fully authenticated before you can do anything with it. Okay, on the other hand, it's still early days on the technology side, because the air is designed to be a work in progress document and, and it's not, you know, it's quite possible that changes will be made to the choice of application hopefully not major major change but you cannot completely, you know, you know, restart from scratch and and forget everything you've been working on for months but there is certainly room for adjustment. So payment which is my area of specialty. Maybe before that, firstly, yeah that's to paradigm is, is really moving from a user control to user control identity based system. So I don't exercise really the right word. Possibly, maybe yes, maybe not. But what's also clear that payments are key key parts of most wallet ecosystem in interaction and digital interactions. And there's, there's a renewed impetus for the, even all the work on the digital year I didn't mention the fact that back here where this. No, sorry. Oh it's here. Okay, yeah. But, and, and, you know, at a wider level, there is a clear recognition that digital interaction that can combine. I would say core ID attributes, status and professional attributes like diplomas licenses or eligibility credentials can open, you know, new and payment attributes can open a new way to be quite transformational for customer interaction and customer experience so we'll see how far as it goes. On the payment use case I was saying that the very recent digital year draft proposal makes quite a few references to digital identity wallet for CBDC interactions. You know, so I've copied the few of the mentions of the digital identity wallet in the recital and substantive provisions. Again, you know, it's clearly is recognized for, you know, the digital identity wallet will clearly be recognized for interactions on digital years. We'll see again it's still early days but you know we'll see how things will turn out but I would say certainly the digital identity wallet is on the radar screen of the European South Bank when it comes to the digital year. When you're looking at the payment case, of course, you know the ability to store and communicate personal identifiable information and electronically attested attributes to rely on quality is very important. You have to be able to use to comply with from customer authentication requirement as you probably know I don't quite know what the situation in the is in the US but in Europe, this is a, this is an absolute payment requirement so and you know and the fact that the wallet will have to be accepted by all payment service providers including all banks as a matter of fact is is important. Anyway, so that's where we are now. Now the question is whether this is fit for payment purposes so far. Again, and there are two payment interactions. You have zero trust by default so mutual authentication is required for for simply for for prevention purposes. It's currently not defined in the air as I think it will be but you know it is probably going to rely on, on, on, on, I would say as 509 certificates but we'll see how that will work out. Then you need to ensure legal capability of payment instructions. And you need to ensure that you know if you have a payer with a wallet and a pay with a wallet. You need to make sure that they're both fully committed lily and that also implies having an audit trail of the payment messages that can be archived and that can be presented in court proceedings. And as mentioned, you need to have strong user authentication in line with the European regulation on payments. But it's currently not obvious at all that these requirements we can be met with a current set of complicated specifications. This is my private view of course but I do think that you know the ISO 18135 specification is standard is privacy invasive. I hope you do not disagree with me but I think the W3C verifiable credential specifications are not designed to deal with mutual commitments. They did not also readily support offline interactions. And the rest API request responses are not tailored to meet audit trail requirements. So these are, you know, and technical issues. It's, it's work in progress. It's, it's denying if it's, you know, there is a lot, a lot of work to be done. But we'll see if the ambition the considerable ambition of the digital identity while it will translate into meaningful reality. There's, you know, there's a little bit of doubt about that. But we'll see I mean it's anyway it's not the end of the story we're not even midway through the process. So we'll see what happens. I think we've moved to the next. In fact, time is running out I can see maybe I should stop here. Is there any any comments any any suggestion any questions or is that all clear. I would say no questions currently so if you have like a quick summary or anything I think that would be. Yeah, I think I mean, I think it's really here I think that's probably the best. I think we can do the best view of, you know, the, the, I guess to initiative. Again, a lot of the, basically, the next steps within a few weeks, I think we're going to see the final final version of the regulation the one that will reach the value books. We'll see an updated version of the architecture reference document and that will probably include provision on mutual authentication and give more clarity on the choice of technologies that are going to be used. There's going to be work down there's work done on the, I would say prototype implementation of the wallet. And the LS fields will start to get into real motion currently you know the cons on the LSB side the consortia has been have been formed. They've made an offer they've been accepted the negotiated a contract with the European Commission but they haven't really started work they need to have the workable prototype wanted to do that. So they're waiting for the reference for the reference implementation side and then more clarity on the error side as well. I think that's what we can say. It's an exciting project. It's certainly very ambitious. No doubt. And, and we'll see what happens. Maybe I have to be given another opportunity to present it in 12 months time. Absolutely no I think it's exactly what you said it's ambitious but it is exciting and yeah if there's more updates in another year we'd love to have you back. Well yeah I think we'll throw it out to questions one more time but I think if there's still none, we appreciate you coming to talk to us today. Thank you. I have a question though, I gather the hyper ledger, can you clarify what's the difference between the hyper ledger identity special interest group and the previous group. Managed by by the big is it is it more or less the same or is it a different one. I'm unfamiliar, unfortunately with the previous group managed by vivid. So I know that we were combined. I was not part of that conversation unfortunately. Alright, okay. So, sorry about that. No problem. Okay, well listen. If you're if you're interested in the presentation I'm happy to give you the link to the to the document so you can take a closer look at it later. Awesome. I appreciate that. Okay. Very good. Hi guys, I don't know if you can hear me. Yeah, yeah. Okay guys my name is gyro Roma. I'm going to go directly to the question. I was I was working in the past or I've been working during the last couple of years for trade finance blockchain trade finance, one of the initiatives. As you know trade finance is one of the industries that needs more these days, digitalization, standardization, those type of things. Entity is incredibly important at a individual level, but it's also important at a company lever who is buying what we send in what was there was a couple of initiatives of there was an initiative to implement a global legal entity or legal entity identifier that promote or supported by the G seven call glyph. That initiative I was, I was doing some type of analysis around it was an initiative for to to create an identifier that every single country from the G seven and now there are more that we're going to implement to introduce at a global level to do exactly that to identifier to have a global identifier for companies, more than four individuals. Do you know anything about this initiative. Do you know. I, I've heard of them to be honest but I'm not. I'm not really involved. I think I should have mentioned earlier that the, I hope it's clear from my presentation though. I should have mentioned earlier that the digital identity wallet is primarily designed to be used by an individual. So not not a legal entity per se the, however, the individual can produce an electronically tested attributes and these can be for example, authority to act on behalf of the legal entity that know that but effectively here you're really talking about the digital identity and service primarily to be used by individuals maybe in a professional capacity but primarily for individuals what you're referring to is a is a purely an initiative that's been going on for many years in fact to define a common registration scheme for all legal entities. I've heard of it. I've heard of it repeatedly but I'm not involved in that effort. I'm not really part of it. It's different. So I really cannot talk meaningfully about it I'm afraid. Another quick quick question. Then, if we are all this wallet, we are talking about a good to be prepared in terms of technology in terms of infrastructure to be able to cover in the future as a second phase as a next next stage for these illegal or enterprises identities or identifiers. Yeah, I mean there's what I can say is that there's always in the background, you know, let me put it this way the primary efforts is clearly individuals. Now, people are saying, yes, but individuals they act in they can act on behalf of the legal entity that is seen as, you know, as effectively an individual in acting in a defined capacity with a defined authorization or authority credential, acting to able being able to, you know, for example, to activate a company's account, for example, it's a set of it's a subset of it's seen as a subset of use cases that are considered by the EIS to initiate it. So that will come. What I think you're unlikely to see though is a wallet that is a pure company wallet that has no individuals named to it so to speak. Okay. Just to jump in. I think what you're referring to a Mr. Rome was a the Gleaf the global legal identity foundation. I posted on the chat. And then the identifier is the legal identifier and then the company credentials will be the virtual legal identifier. And I agree with your assessment. It's very clear that the EIS is more toward individuals and the leis. Yeah, I mean it's, it's very, it's very clear that he has his gear towards individuals because in fact, you know, really talking about here. You know, you do have PID providers at the core of the project you have PID providers who are providing core identity attributes to an individual. And then, you know, so that's, you know, that's the key, quite a fundamental structural building block. On top of that you can have, you know, that individual authorized to act on behalf of the company. There is no question about that but it's, it's, you know, it's seen as another layer of authority or given to one individual. So it's not purely, you know, a tool for legal entities that have no connection with any individual. I mean that's very clear. Right. Well, assuming that both of them succeed. They'll probably be bridge credentials and all that stuff in the future. Yeah, I'm sure that's it. There's companies and then they have an individual work forum but the credentials are all company focused. Yeah. Yep. Yep. Thanks guys. Thanks for finding things. Thanks. Yeah. Thank you for your presentation. Thanks Charles. Okay. Well, nice interacting with you guys. I think it's, it's a one hour talk anyway so we're done. All right, good. Have a good day. Have a good one everyone. Bye.