 Welcome, everyone. It's October the 11th, 2023. This is the Jenkins user experience special interest group. Topics for today include a temporary expansion of scope for the security audit. That one was, I've added it with Vodek, but Vodek's not here, so I'm going to move it down the list. What's happened recently in UI and a reminder about Jenkins elections. Any other items that need to be added to the list. Okay, then let's talk to the recent improvements in UI. So items that I'm aware of, we've now got better delete dialogues for agents, clouds, users, log recorders. Instead of a browser dialogue and instead of navigating to a new page, you get the modern experience of an actual delete dialogue that appears inside the page looks really nice. Thanks, I believe, to Marcus Vinter for that one. And we've got cloud management interface improvements. This one is still ongoing. Tim, maybe you can give some highlights here, but what I've seen is the pages have been reworked to be more manageable, to be page specific per cloud. Anything that you want to highlight there, Tim? Not, I mean a little bit. So yeah, basically it means that when you have quite a few clouds with multiple VM templates, they're collapsed so that each on their own page, I mean, you're not loading a lot, it's a lot easier to read and find things easier to manage. Thanks, thanks very much. Yeah, and I believe there are still improvements there that there have been some bumps along the way, but they continue. Any questions or other topics related to that cloud management interface improvement? Maybe, so depending on the purpose of this meeting where it's going, there is an open pull request that is about to be merged that allows reordering the clouds on the overview page. And in the current iteration, there is no UI element that indicates how users would reorder it. So I left non-blocking feedback on that. I know that Bardek also, when I explained it to him, pointed out that this is probably not great. On the other hand, I think Tim was happy with it, as well as Alex, so I don't know what it makes sense to take a look in this group of people interested in the UX to see whether it is acceptable as is or should be changed. I think I was happy enough with that. It's not perfect, but we didn't have a great option. We looked at a few iterations. And also the number of people I expect to reorder this, it would be very, very low. I would expect, I had no idea until that PR came in that the order even mattered. And I don't think many people would have known about it. Right, but there is now no drag handle for the reorder in the current iteration, but people would need to drag on the cloud icon. And given that this is the only table in all of Jenkins that works like this, I feel like this should be perhaps more explicit. I don't know, Mark, could you perhaps open the poll request or are you not set up? Sure, I am happy to open the poll request. So let's go there, Jenkins Core. Right, it's poll request 8492. Okay, great. So 8492. Yeah. And the current. So one of my preferences was just to drop the logo and replace it with a drag handle. Right, so right now the expectation is that you drag on the cloud icon on the left. In the video at the top, Mark. Oh, you want me to actually play the video? Okay, you bet. Here we go, this one. So, okay, so the cloud is the thing that's the drag handle. Right, and in the previous iteration, there was both a drag handle, like the three horizontal lines plus the cloud icon, where the feedback was, this looks a bit weird. And then the cloud icon was on the left and the drag handle on the right next to the configure icon, which also wasn't ideal. So we have a bunch of variants that all have certain drawbacks. And right now we chose the one that looks the nicest in my opinion and also in my opinion, is the least clear from a user point of view, how to do things. I don't know, is anyone else in this meeting interested in the topic or can we move on and wait for user feedback? Well, but isn't that I'm interested in the topic because I think Tim's point was a good one that not being even aware that ordering of clouds was relevant. And I think there's text there. My eyes aren't that great, but there's text there that now hints that order matters, but no hint to the drag handle. There, yeah. Right, that was also really feedback that there was the ability to reorder the clouds, but we have nothing that explains why the order matters. Right, I think there's a tooltip on that order, I think. If you were to hover over order, it does pop up and tell you how to do it, I think. No, it's a little text on top of the table there during no provisioning clouds. No, I mean, there's a tooltip as well. Well, in the video, it only says Kubernetes. Yeah, he's not hovering over the order column. Would a quick fix be that when you're hovering the cloud, you get that, you know, the universal dragging indicators like they could replace the cloud icon or something like something visually happens that indicates that you're now able to drag. I think the pointer is different. Could you play again, please? Yeah, it's the directional and real pointer. I mean, if you wanted to shoot this over to me, I can walk up something because I've already made some changes to the pod templates in this area. Ah, if, yeah, Christine, if if you'd be willing to take a look at it and offer some alternatives that I think I'm at least interested in it. And I this was coming from Vincent. I'm confident he'd be interested as well. It wouldn't be a big fix, but I think it would help give clarity Can someone throw me a ticket? Sure, absolutely. I'll I'll I'll send you something. That's great. Should this be blocking? I don't think this should be blocking. I think it's an easy tweak that can be done afterwards. It says drag and drop to reorder cells. If you hover over order, it's not shown in the video. OK, so there is text when you hover. If you hover long enough, it will give you text over the order column. So over the heading on the column. The header. OK. I think you would want to put the grippies for lack of a better word, the little those little just a little bit of visual indicator there that you can do some things. You don't have to mark Mark. Could you could you open the comment history of the pull request comment? Scroll up a bit. And where it says edited attitude. Oh, this one. Yes. OK. And now select the second entry two weeks ago. Uh-huh. And now click the link that says GitHub dot com slash assets. That one. OK. So this will show us that's a download of the video. OK, so now you're boldly going to have me open a file on my file system just a minute. I'll get it there. So here's the movie. I think I've got a movie player that will show it. OK, right. Apparently GitHub isn't. So this is how it was previously. Yeah, so let's let's play it one more time. So it was with the three. But the problem with the three is or it was the concern with this that it's not as attractive because the the the cloud icon and and the drag handle are somehow duplicated. The page is off balance, really, by shunting the name to the right. You've got this. I think what I would do is I would gray out the black of the lines so that it's like a 50 percent black so it's more subtle. It doesn't have to say order at the top of the column. And just a line. And I'd choose an arrow or icon. Like, I think there's some subtle changes. I think the order was visually hidden at some point where it was only visible to screen readers screen readers. I get popped back in. Well, it was in this video, but it was it also popped back out when it when the handles disappeared. I think that would be, like, probably an area that you would want area to skip because, well, I don't know, because if you want to be accessible, you're going to open a real Pandora's box of complexity to, like, be able to grab a handle with your keyboard, navigate, have it read back what order it is in now as it's moving, right, because you would need that audio or that audio queue if I couldn't see the screen or I had low vision. How would I know? OK, I've grabbed you can probably get to the point where you could grab the handle to drag. But then as I was moving it through the listing, I would have no context for where I am in that list, like where I'm dragging it to. So if you wanted to build out the experience of some sort of feedback, like. It would not be a minimal effort. No, that's a more generic fix. Yeah, so. OK, so I'm trying to be sure I've understood. So non-blocking, this is this. The thing that's already here is is already a good step forward. I think was the was Tim's proposal. And I think I agree with him, this is this is an improvement and we should go forward with it. Christina has agreed that she's willing to provide some suggestions of things we might do in a subsequent pull request. Did I state that correctly? Christina, are you OK with that, Tim and Daniel as well? Yep. It should be fine. OK, great. Excellent. Thank you. Good good use of this session. Thanks very much. Anything else on the cloud, the cloud reordering work? OK, the next topic was prototype.js has been removed. Tim, I think in honor of your your bravery in launching this six months ago now, was it? You should tell us a little bit. Yeah, so between, I mean, Basil's done a great blog post on it with all the contributors and everything that we did. Yeah, but we finally managed to drop prototype, which is something that people thought that we wouldn't be able to do, that we're too tired to it. And yeah, so unblocks usage of some frameworks and libraries that break with prototype in there, because prototype just just comes in hijacks, a bunch of Java core JavaScript objects. And just make sure that we're able to do that. And just makes it so those frameworks don't work. And Oli's already made some changes to his libraries to remove some hacks and workarounds that he had in some of his API plugins to try and work around it. But it means that some frameworks can work natively without hacks and workarounds or at all. Yeah, OK, the realizing that prototype.js was rewriting effectively rewriting the JavaScript language and blocking other libraries that amazing. Thank you. Thanks very much, Oli. Anything you wanted to observe on this one? Oh, I think we have lost Oli. No. OK, he's still there, but he's outside of the default view. Right. OK. Excellent. Thank you, Tim. Thank you. Thank you. And thanks to Basel as well. Great results from from months of effort. Thank you. Thank you. Now, we've also added the Java 11 end of life administrative monitor. So in as part of an effort to better care for users and alert them when things are reaching end of life. Some months ago, we added a warning about operating system end of life. Java 11 will reach end of life from several of the Java providers in October of 2024 or September of 2024, depending on which provider. And so we've beginning with weekly for two to four twenty six last week. We're now raising an admin monitor if you're running Jenkins on Java 11. And the intent is people will switch to Java 17 over the course of the next year so that when in I think it's September of 2023, we will switch. The minimum required version. To be Java 17, 20, 24, maybe. Oh, oh, thank you. Thank you. So we're not going back in time. Thanks very much, Bruno. Yes, you're right. My DeLorean is not working. So thank you to Java 17. Any questions or concerns there? Any items that I've missed on UI highlights and UI improvements, recent improvements and changes. OK, the next topic was the Jenkins officer board and officer elections, please go ahead, Daniel. Yes, note question. It seems like the. Pays of changes has slowed down a bit. Recently, is that just subjective or. Have we lost interest or is there a few interest in. UI changes or what's going on, Tim, perhaps, you know. Yeah, I haven't seen Jan, I guess, hasn't had time recently. I don't know. I need to check with him, see what's going on there. And yeah, I haven't had as much time. I've done I've done some stuff, but not a huge amount. No, I have seen new releases of pipeline graph view, for instance. So there are still some things happening, but. Yeah, I've been working on theme manager and configuration as code stuff recently. Oh, and we didn't like there's sorry, go on. No, no, go ahead, Daniel. So it's not like there's, you know, we're done and now things are done. No, no, it's not done. OK, cool. Just been focusing on some non-core stuff recently, but a bunch of stuff around Prism and that sort of stuff. And OK, cool. Thanks. Thanks. Anything else on UI improvements? So, yeah, I forgot to mention, but the. New theme manager API for that can be used to detect preferred themes and like light and dark modes. I think the pipeline plugin that provides the. In page pipeline editor has been updated and so is Prism API and maybe something else, at least those two. So now you get light and dark themes on basically non-core elements and they and they adapt as you change the page. So your design library has been adapted, which is just quite an extensive use of Prism and yeah, that was the other main one. Tim, you wrote you what you when you were saying triggered for me one item, which there was a there's a pull request for replacing what was it? Log visualization. And now I'm I apologize, I should have remembered this one beforehand. I think this was one that Devon Nussbaum has been involved with and others have been involved with, but I'm not sure that it's reached merge that it's merged yet. It's just in in, I believe it's in review and in discussion. I think so. I haven't had a chance to try it locally. Okay. I think it's largely done. So probably in the next week or two. Yeah. And replacing is the wrong way. It's some sort of replugable log visualization, right? So that it allows you to change the console link basically, provide a plugin that can change the console link. Yeah. So it's interesting because it is a full replacement. So if you click the animated build progress symbol, the progress bar or select the console link in the side panel, you get taken to different pages, but then just a regular console output. However, the console URL still works. So you can get to the existing log output by navigating there directly if you need to. But otherwise it's a full replacement on the UI. Okay. So it it's basically a supersede that link. Oh, thank you. Changes that link to an API basically. So instead of everything pointing to slash console, there's a API that you can use to get the get the active console link. Got it. Thank you. And that one again has not landed. It's, but Daniel, your indication was it's made good progress and seems likely to arrive within the next few weeks. Yeah. That's, that's my expectation here. So I left a bit of feedback not too long ago that has been addressed. So should be just a few more days. Great. All right. And I wanted to see the video. Okay. So there it is pipeline graph view. And you make that icon console. Oh, okay. That was a change. Okay. I see. So usually when I click console output, it takes me to the real console output. This change says graph view could now make itself go right to graph view for console output. Got it. Right. And I'm not sure that graph view is a great in its current iteration is a great entire replacement because I think if you have no stages, there's no output or there is a similar function. Plus if you replace the link with your custom view, you probably want your approach to have a link to the basic log view just in case. So, but I guess that can always be iterated on. Right. It's pretty, pretty nice working really nicely and configurable and all of that. Great. Thank you. All right. Thanks very much. Any other items that I've missed on UI pending or recent UI changes? I'm working on a change at the moment to display configuration as code errors in the UI rather than throwing up a giant error page and telling people to look at the logs and logs are quite unreadable anyway. It was, yeah, before the, okay, it relied on the stack trace being shown in the UI, but at some point it was changed to not show stack traces. So it really needed improvements. Great. Yeah. So this is very hard to read anyway. This is the configuration as code failure mode, right? Where I mistakenly put, I misspelled a keyword or a keyword has changed and it stops Jenkins launch. I can't even read, visit the web page. So your ideas, they will be able to get to the web page and see the error in the web page. Yeah. Yeah. There's a core change that's needed to make the boot one work because there's no current way to interrupt the boot failure screen, but I've got a PR that does it. I just waiting to, I just need to write a test for it. I've been focusing on improving the UI. Great. Thank you. Yeah, it was where there's a whole bunch of boot failure exceptions, but nothing seemed to work. Okay. Any other topics on recent UI improvements? Okay. Next topic then was just a reminder that the board elections are running. Please register to vote. We've put a nice big red button at the top of the community pages. Click this button here that says register here. You need to register every year. Vadek, with you here, I think you had put this into the notes from last, last meeting. Did you want to talk briefly about this temporary expansion of scope for security audit? So actually there was nothing to talk about in the sense that I posted the message last time or last, last previous, previous meeting if you scroll down a bit, you will see just the explanation that we are stopping the effort at this point. A bit below. Yeah, the exponent scope was proposed for two months. We are the end of the two months. So at this point, we were not able to find anything useful there. So we are stopping the effort. So it means that we stopped the effort two months ago at this point. Great. All right. We are continuing to review the thing in general, but we are not requesting any blocking anything for things that are not related to the UI. So we keep the same thing as before, but we have to keep the same process. Where we are getting more of the, most of the other excesses and this kind of thing. Great. Thank you. All right. Any other topics for today's meeting? Okay. Thanks for your time then. Recording should be available within the next 24 hours. Thanks very, very much. Have a great day. Have a good Wednesday.