 Hello and welcome to Data Diversity Talks, a podcast where we discuss with industry leaders and experts how they have built their careers around data. I'm your host Shannon Kemp and today we're talking to Kelly O'Neill, founder and CEO of First San Francisco Partners. Ready to share your knowledge and network with your data peers? Join us in San Diego this June for the data governance and information quality conference. Five days packed full of new perspectives, new colleagues and new approaches are yours when you register at dgiq2023west.dativersity.net. Lock in early bird savings when you register by May 5th. We'll see you there. Hello and welcome. My name is Shannon Kemp and I'm the Chief Digital Officer at Data Diversity and this is my career in data. A Data Diversity Talks podcast dedicated to learning from those who have careers in data management to understand how they got there and to be talking with people who help make those careers a little bit easier. To keep up to date in the latest in data management, go to dataversity.net forward slash subscribe. And today we are joined by Kelly O'Neill, founder and CEO of First San Francisco Partners and normally this is where a podcast host would read a short bio of the guest. But in this podcast, your bio is what we're here to talk about Kelly. Hello and welcome. Thank you. I'm so excited that you asked me to participate. So very excited. So glad you're here. We've known each other for a while now. And so we couldn't do this without you. I absolutely like Kelly. Well, you were one of the first people that came to mind. Thank you. So tell me, so you're the founder and CEO of First San Francisco Partners. So what is First San Francisco Partners and what is it that you do? Great. So we are a consulting company. So First San Francisco Partners is a consulting company and we help our clients to make their information actionable. Which means that we work across the data spectrum so you can think about it as the data spectrum you could think about it as the data supply chain. But we really go from how do companies most appropriately acquire or create data all the way through to point of usage and all the little steps along the way, and all of the opportunities to increase understanding and awareness around data. What makes us unique is that we do this with a business lens in mind. And so we always think about what is the value that is going to happen through this data activity. And if we can't identify a business value, then we ask ourselves, is this the right thing for the client? Because at the end of the day, we're trying to support their corporate goals. So we want to be supporting growth, whatever that means to them. We want to be supporting profitability. We want to help them identify and refine their expenses and drive efficiency. We want them to, we want to know how we can help support their sustainability goals. So now that companies are really looking at ESG as a thing and a point of investment, we want to support that through their understanding and use of data. So anytime we're going through this value assessment with clients, we also want to support their sustainability goals. And their automation goals. So where did they see things like AI and ML so artificial intelligence and machine learning, where did they see that contribute. So anyway, that's what we do as a consulting company. We have people all across the US and Canada, we are 100% remote have been since the beginning, which was 16 years ago today. Oh my gosh, and I didn't even realize this. Happy anniversary. Amazing. So that's who first in Francisco is and really it is just, you know, the best team of people in the whole wide world. So, I love it and I've enjoyed working with all of your team. I really have. But congratulations 16 years. Oh my gosh. Oh, I know. We can have a driver's license Shannon. Crazy. Well, you know, and you talk about value and so many of people that I run into, you know, ask, how do you show value, you know, and is that, you know, by aligning it with the business schools. Yeah, yeah. You know, how do you get, you know, buy off to, you know, with the executives to to understand data is important, you know, 100%. I love that. So, um, tell me, Kelly, when, when you were very young in elementary school, you know, is this what you dreamed of when you want to be when you grew up, you know, oh my gosh, I'm going to own a consulting company and and and working data. Was that the goal. Oh hell no. Sorry, can I say that. Oh my gosh. Heck no. Um, so I, you know, part of why I was really excited to be on your podcast is I have had a very circuitous process. I love it. And I think that that's, that's important, like it's not a straight line. And so growing up. And still to this day I don't consider myself a technical person. You know, I see some of my friends who are so excited to get the next iPhone and so excited for this new app and so and I'm like, I just want to go climb a mountain, like, you know what I mean. So it's, and I think, you know, hopefully what people will get out of this is that it's okay to have a circuitous path, and that you should never think that you're, you know, only able to do one thing. I'll tell you a little bit. So growing up. You know, I don't know if I was one of those kids. In fact, I'm sure I wasn't one of those kids of I want to be this when I grow up, I have, I mean, even still I'm like, is this what I want to do when I grow up. And so one super interesting thing is somehow I found the Did you in high school you created these little like, oh my gosh, what did we call them. Where you wrote down what you wanted to be when you grew up, and you put it in a time capsule, and you essentially like buried it or gave it away. I found my time capsule. As well as my two best friends that I looked at and I was howling, but I said, I wanted to be a corporate psychologist. Oh, it's not interesting. It is. And many times that's exactly what I feel like. And, you know, because it really is about solving problems and it's about supporting individuals. And so sure we do it through data, we do it through governance and that sort of thing but really what we're doing is we are supporting people in their success. And so many times I get off the call and I was like wow we talked about everything but data, but at the end of the day, they are trying to be successful as an individual, and they are trying to contribute to the success of their organization. Anyway, so that was really interesting. So corporate psychologist was what was on my yeah. Do you want me to keep going in terms of what happened. Yeah, I do. I do. And you're the first person who said corporate psychologist. We've had several astronauts. Oh, some baseball players. Oh, fun. So I love it. I love the diversity. So yes, tell me what what's your career path and what does that look like. So, in college, I was, I studied American literature and psychology. And so in the psychology realm I focused on more of the like biological side and neurochemistry. But I really thought that that was the path that I wanted to go. I was also very interested in fashion. And so when I got out of college, what I looked for is I looked for a job in the design industry. And so I wanted to go work for a designer in San Francisco and I wasn't really like an art major or anything like that, but I just had a passion for it so I ended up going into the Macy's management training program. So I worked in the Macy's in San Francisco and I did that for, you know, a few years. And as I was doing that, I was managing actually the sleepwear and lingerie department in Macy's Union Square. So inventory was really fun, lots of counting of bras and panties. Anyway, and so I was working my tail off and I was working holidays and nights and weekends and all my friends that went to work for Ted companies primarily Oracle. They would get off work at four o'clock they'd go, you know, mountain biking, they'd go do whatever and after a while I was like, you know, is this really worth it. So that's what's important to me and so I made this decision that I could either be in the industry, or if I really had this, you know, interest in fashion, I could just make money and go buy it, like, you know, at some point and so then I went to work for Oracle, like a lot of my, you know, friends and peers did in the Bay Area. And that was way back when Oracle was that kind of starting point for a lot of people in their tech careers and I went into the contracts management department so I was dealing with language, you know, hence my English background. I, and I was supporting a sales team, and then I went into that sales team so that's how I got into kind of the market development side of technology, and I just continued in technology. I continue and what was interesting to me about it was the selling aspect so in Oracle I was supporting their reseller channel and their alliance partners. And that took me to another technology organization and another and another, and I was able to achieve some of the goals that I wanted to achieve through that industry, if you will. It's a highly dynamic industry it's changing all of the time all the time you really have to be on your toes, and I like that you know I needed to step up. And I enabled me to go live in Australia and Singapore and Spain and Amsterdam and you know so it enabled me to go all over the world with my work which was amazing. It really helped me to achieve all of these different things. Also, it because I was in a sales role. I was able to get my masters get my MBA while I was working. So that was another key kind of career objective that I had. You could hear none of this is around data. I wasn't like, I want to learn to model data, I want to. So I was always thinking about how can I help the organizations that I'm working with to accomplish their goals that was my approach when I was selling software. And that's always been my approach and that was also why First San Francisco was started in the first place. So I hope that makes sense as absolutely. So, you know, a couple of things, as long as we've known each other a I didn't know we shared a retail background I worked for Nordstrom for 11 years. Oh my gosh. You were in retail. Yeah, yeah, you do you do a singer swim you know it's, you know you run your own business there as we learn a lot about business. And people. Yeah, absolutely. I didn't know that you lived all over the world. That's fascinating. I want definitely want to hear more about that maybe not today but you know, it's amazing. I would encourage everyone to do it it opens your eyes to empathy. I would encourage you to understand who you're engaging with, because they're, everyone is different and unique and it's that difference that is so amazing. Right. And anyway, I had to adapt a lot. Sure, very different cultures that you mentioned different cultures. Yes. I love it. I made a lot of faux pas I will tell you that. Yeah. Yeah, I could go down the list just let's just say, you know, as much as I want to not be the quote unquote typical American, I'm still American, and you go into these cultures and you. Yeah, you do the ugly American thing, and you don't even know you're doing it. Yeah, I mean I had bosses that just, I would make mistakes and I didn't even know it and but that's how you learn and you're like, Oh, how am I going to fix that one. You do. And you don't do it again. And you learn so much about what's important to people. And what's important in their whole society in their community, and what it means to have a role or a title, what success looks like to different cultures and people, and how they are there. It's fascinating. That is fascinating. I love that experience and that's, that's amazing. So, so tell me a little bit more about the transition then into first San Francisco partners and, and what made you and a little bit more on how you decided to get into data. More specifically, yeah, yeah. And as I went from software company to software company, I got more and more into data centric software. So from Oracle, I went to a company who, I don't know, I'm totally dating myself called scopus that was acquired by Siebel systems. So if anybody remembers Siebel it was the pre sales force. And, and then so was going from kind of this general platform capability to an application that application solved business challenges. And then I went to another company called golden gate golden gate was more of a data centric platform that sold specifically into very high volume and high requirements for high reliability and control. So it was a data centric data movement solution and I went from there to Cyperian, which is was a master data management solution so I slowly got slowly moved into a data and then being at Cyperian, I had a couple of different roles. One is that I was part of their alliances organization and working with their systems integration partners their technology partners. And then I, because I had recently been running a sales organization and a partner organization in Europe through golden gate. They tapped me to help with their European expansion. And so then I moved back into more of the direct sales work. And in doing that, it became really clear that as we're trying to sell this platform basically that helped clients master their data. We were doing a tremendous amount of education around why mastering your data is important. So, this was back in, you know, 2004, five, six. So first San Francisco was created in 2007 if I'm getting my math correct. Yes, I think that's right. Yes 16 years old. Okay. This was leading up to the financial meltdown. So we didn't know that that was happening, but we did know that a big requirement at financial institutions which was a key market that we were selling into was to help understand who are we selling to who are we with, where are our products being used. And so that master data challenge helped them as a business. We were educating them on how our platform could help them achieve their regulatory regulatory goals, their growth goals, etc. But all of this education is challenging when you're trying to fill a quota. The only place where we could turn at that time was to these big systems integrators like Capgemini and PwC and Accenture. And again as a sales team, while they are valuable partners that delayed our sales cycle pretty significantly. So we're like, okay, what are our other alternatives and we really didn't have other alternatives. So being, you know, naive and I don't know. I decided, you know what, now's the time. I really don't want to move back to Europe, which is what the request was I don't want to move back to Europe now I just came home whatever it was two years before that a year before that. So I'm going to fill this gap. I'm going to help clients understand how mastering their data helps them from a business perspective and we had just started regularly using the language of data governance. That was why First San Francisco was started is to help clients make that transition between how a technical solution could help progress their business objectives. Lo and behold, there was the financial meltdown. A key contributor to the meltdown was lack of transparency and data. This was kind of a serendipitous sort of thing where, you know, to start a business in a global meltdown is a really bad idea. Oh, well, you know, you get through it, but the message was incredible. The key reason for the meltdown was lack of visibility into counterparty relationships and where these financial institutions had risk. The story at the time was, who is Lehman Brothers and what is my risk exposure to Lehman Brothers, because all of their entities were not called Lehman Brothers. And these companies could not pull together and match those different entities to assess and calculate overall risk. And that's a data issue. So First San Francisco pulled together and used a lot of different friends and, you know, peers and all of that to create this message of how do you master your data. We were still focused on mastering how do you master your data as people in process, not just technology to achieve business goals. And that's how First San Francisco was created. And so we started mainly working with banks and financial institutions. But that was the goal. One of the learnings in that is as much as that was the goal. Big clients don't always buy strategy because it's strategy work from unknown entities. Number one, that's a really hard thing to sell when who who is First San Francisco like who is this this group, you know, who are they. So what we did is I continued to partner with Cyperion and we started doing master data implementations. And for each implementation that we did. We tacked on the business process of the organizational change management which I didn't even know what it was called back then. We tacked on the organizational structures the operating model all of the data governance work, and we did it very kind of cheaply and lightly, where the client was willing to buy that work. The main thing that they were focused on was the master data management. We were okay with that all we wanted was clients to be able to talk about First San Francisco and how we helped them improve their business through mastering their data. And then we started to build out that business process and the people side of it and the organizational change management side which became truly the broad scope of governance that we define it as as we do now. And over time we we did fewer and fewer technical implementations, we still do master data implementations. It's not a huge piece of our business anymore it's an important part of our business for sure. But the biggest impact that we have to organizations and the biggest way we differentiate ourselves is on the people and process side. It all kind of evolved and I always say to anyone who's thinking about starting a business like I will talk to anyone who wants to start a business. I learned things the hard way. I have made every mistake. I have had every bad thing that you've ever want to happen happen to the company. And we're still here. So if anyone ever wants to have a big reality check, I'm happy to share. It's not a straight line. It's not easy. I was really like there were moments like, dang it, I might have to go get a job. I want to get a job. I want to keep doing this. With a robust catalog of courses offered on demand and industry leading live online sessions throughout the year, the Dataversity Training Center is your launchpad for career success. Browse the complete catalog at training.dataversity.net and use code DB Talks for 20% off your purchase. Well, I love it. You know, you've mentioned this a couple of times that you have had learnings through mistakes. You know, and I think that's so important to call out because you know we work so hard to be perfect but mistakes is our mistakes are how we learn. Right. Yeah. Yeah, it's okay to make mistakes and Yeah, I think the biggest thing is number one to to take it as an opportunity right sometimes when we're in the middle of the mistake. Yeah, it is so hard to do that, you know, and especially if we personally made the mistake. If someone on our team made a mistake but we need to be accountable for it like it's hard when you're in it. But the most important thing is what have I learned and how will I do it differently. And to listen to listen when you're in the middle of it. And that has happened the then like what I hear from my people, what I hear from, and I say my just because I have this sense of ownership over it it's not my stupid. And what I hear from the clients is the learning. I'm willing to like hear what you don't want to hear. And that's how we learn. And I think that that is also like you say we were always trying to be so perfect. And it just isn't like that. And to be willing to say yeah, that was a massive. Yeah, that was a massive one right and to move on and to never do it again. And, you know, I do think that that that is why, you know, that's why as an entrepreneur. There's, you have to, you know, you have to know something you have to know something that's important to people of course. You need to have grit and stubbornness. This is the thing that like my family says to me well it's just because you're stubborn. And I'm like yeah I'm kind of stubborn. Okay. You know, you don't keep going if you don't have something behind you saying, yeah, that was a big mistake. Yeah, that was my fault, or that was somebody else's fault but I'm going to own it, and I'm going to move on. I'm going to do it better, and I'm going to make it right. And that stubbornness sometimes love that you own that and use it for for such a good thing because stubborn kids has such negative connotation sometimes that it really can be a really powerful tool. And sometimes when I'm being too stubborn and I have to let it go. Right, where I need to again listen to my team and listen to my clients and just realize you know what that's not actually the best idea that I think it is. Okay, so let's let's let's let it go. And let's move on. Very nice. So, with this experience now with data 16 years. What is your definition of data and and how is it, you're working with it with clients today versus maybe 16 years ago. Yeah. So, I think the biggest difference is just the scale and the size, you know, as a larger organization, we can do more things for clients so we can help them more deeply than we could have many years ago. Like when we think about data, we think about it as kind of the data meaning the record, but we also think about everything around the data. So, the metadata, the processes, the accountabilities, the organizational structures, everything around that data, and we think about it as data morphs and changes and aggregates and becomes something else. So it becomes information, it becomes a report it becomes an analytics exercise, it becomes a training mechanism for a machine learning algorithm. So as that data becomes other things, it also needs to be understood and governed and optimized. So starting from this idea of master data, which is a very small, not very small. It's a piece of your data in your organization, we've been able to expand out into other types of data and information, not just data. I don't know if I had my sights on that from the very beginning because of course 16 years is a long time ago, but always wanted to continue to expand the value that we could provide to clients. So in that way, our definition has evolved and expanded and it's based on really what the people who come to First San Francisco can do. And so we don't always grow and expand in our capabilities by having the ideas ourselves and then training people. It's by people coming to First San Francisco and bringing that idea and bringing that skill set, and bringing it and incorporating it into the work that we're already doing. It's a really fantastic way to grow. And that is something that happens all the time. So we have great people joining the company, they bring their experience to the table, and they help us to expand both in our capabilities and how we can help clients. So I guess that breadth of what we can provide to the client and then also I would say the depth. For many, many years First San Francisco was a strategy company, and we would work with clients to help develop that strategy. And then the clients would either do it themselves or hire somebody else. And that was always this really difficult time where if we were really successful doing the strategy work, how come we're not working with them anymore how come not not that we're not working with them because we stay in touch with just about all of our clients but how come they're not paying us anymore right. That's how we grow as a company I'm sorry. Anyway, so that was always a hard thing like if they like the strategy so much why aren't we still there. And part of it was our own doing in the sense that we didn't have a really good capability to continue to assist them. We didn't have people that would come in and say no, I am going to curate your metadata, I'm going to work in that spreadsheet, I'm going to help you do this. I'm going to get into the data, I'm going to do the analysis, I'm going to do you know the data profiling, I'm going to create your master data model. So I'm not just going to take that strategy, I'm going to do the work. I'm not just going to help you determine, you know, what does that model need to look like and what does the data need to be as it flows through that model, I'm going to help you do the work. That's enabled for San Francisco to scale really significantly so it's this ability to help really in the front end from a strategy perspective, all the way through to execution and transference. We have a methodology as consulting companies do the end of our methodology stream is transition to the client. And it's not a big lump sum transition because as each of these capabilities develops in the journey you transition the capability as the client is ready, but that is the result the result is the transition to the client. It takes six months sometimes it takes three years, but over time that is our goal is being able to transition our knowledge to the client so that they can operate their data capability independently. And guess what, when then they have a new regulation they need to, you know, adhere to or they have a new acquisition that they do they call us back and they say hey I need help again. And that is what's so powerful and that's been the biggest change over time. I like that a lot and, and that's a really nice segue into my next question you know with all this exposure with all these different companies and transitioning the responsibility to them. Do you see the importance of data management and the number of jobs working with data increasing or decreasing over the next 10 years and why. Oh my gosh, exponential increasing for sure. It is becoming a data driven world and I know that there's going to be some listeners this thing like yeah Kelly that happened in 2005 and blah blah. But it didn't really actually because there was a it took a really long time for these, you know, old school businesses that produce paint and paper and boxes, and, you know, cans and like all of that stuff for them to truly, you know, as a culture embrace the requirement for data, because the optimization for those companies was always at the processing point. And it was not really clear data's role in that supply chain and optimizing the supply chain and getting the cheapest price for a, you know, for a key component of your supply chain. That was a different thing than data. Well now with the whole internet of things and the idea of optimizing the supply chain in a way that you can automate it more and more. That generates data. Right so anytime we hear somebody talking about well, you know I'm just going to. I'm digitally transforming but no we don't need governance. I'm like, oh my God, I'm going to, I'm like my heart is palpitating like, um, because what does that mean, right, as soon as you digitize anything, whether it is improving your storage capability or whether it's installing sensors on your manufacturing line. Guess what that creates that creates data, and you have an opportunity to either just like have it fill up these, you know, massive cloud storage, you know, facilities and you can just continue to pay for it and it's just like money going out the window, or you can optimize it. And so we are working with trucking and logistics companies. We're working with the paint suppliers we're working with the paper manufacturers we're working with all of those types of business so so it's not just the banks or just the farmers, or just those regulated industries. It is all industries right now, it's education institutions. It is, and that is why I really feel like it is, it is going to exponentially increase. And there is the awareness that data is a business asset. Yes, there's loads of technology that you can implement to help you optimize your data, but it is a business asset. And guess what, that means that your CFO, your COO, your HR exec, they are hiring people that are data savvy. It is no longer just this sort of centralized, like, you know, possibly it function, it is everywhere in the business. And so, marketing has been one of those places that has been yes very creative, but also very data centric, and it is now expanding in every single part of the business. And that's why I think the jobs are exponential. And using myself as an example sorry I keep saying and there's just so much I love that question. What I love is that you don't have to have a technical background to be valuable and data. And it is important to understand the link between how data is created and managed, and how it drives business value, and some of that is technical, and some of that is technology oriented, but a lot of it is people in process. And if you don't know how to help an organization, adopt the technology, or transform their processes, or change their culture. Then a lot of times the technology is not going to be successful in the first place. And that's one of the things that is really to me inspiring about the data world is that it's all kinds of skill sets that come to the table to make it successful. And I think the consultants that we have at our company. We have, you know, Becky lions who I know does data versus seven she's a PhD in basically change management. I think if you would have asked her and maybe you should interview her, you know, where am I going to end up with my, you know, career. I'm not so sure she would have ever said data. I think what she said around change management and adoption is really, really critical. We have people like this woman, Kate Brazil is pretty new to our organization. She's an education and training background, and then she got into data. She's trying to go through kind of, you know, so there's lots of different avenues for entry. And it's not always computer science and programming. So if it is a place where people are interested in joining. I really think that you can take almost any experience that you've had in the past, and find an avenue to add value in the data world. You can learn and you learn the other stuff, because that's what it's all about it's about constantly learning. So, if you can't learn, if you don't have a growth mindset, then maybe this isn't the industry for you. But if you love something that's really dynamic and changing all the time. It's, this is it. It is always changing. And sometimes it changes backwards, but whatever. Again, that's another conversation. Kelly, how do you keep up to date with all the changes and everything going on? Is there resources that you have played go to places? Yeah, so shameless plug. I look at diversity quite a bit. You know, I really do. And so that. And then, and then I look at, I look at what the vendors are putting out so I look at both the big companies and the smaller companies. I look at Gartner, for sure. But then I also read a lot of business press. So a go to publication for me as the economist. And they do a lot of data centric studies. I look back at some of my, you know, alumni so I look at the University of Chicago magazine because, you know, they're a they're a finance MBA program they're a finance, you know, driven organization as far as learning and education. I'm looking at what they see as trends and what they're doing as an educational institution and what they're digging into from a research perspective is very educational because I know that if that's successful in a research con construct. Ultimately, that's going to come to my client. And so I need to be aware of that. So those are kind of my primary sources. I love that. And, and you've given a lot of ice already a lot of really good advice, you know, but what additional advice would you give to people looking to get into a career in data management, especially and, you know, as you're talking about, if they're not technical and they're not going to data science route. Yeah. So, first thing is just do your research. Right. So, just try and learn as much as you can by yourself there is so much free education out there and there's also great education that's not that expensive. I mean Coursera classes, like, why would you not do that. I mean to give you another example. We have another woman on our team, Rachel Thompson she's been with us for about a year and a half now. Before she came to us, she took a Coursera course around data. And the reason she did that is because she was in the restaurant industry, she was waiting tables, managing restaurants. And she was like, you know what this data thing looks kind of interesting. And so she took this Coursera course, she had a friend of a friend of a friend who knew Sarah Rasmussen, who, you know, is a key leader in our caliber capability. And called Sarah and was like, Hey, I'm kind of interested in this thing, would you be willing to talk to me. And I think that that sort of, you know, if you think you're interested, do some homework, learn a little bit about it, think about and do a very honest assessment of what skills you have, and therefore try and create that link between what skills you think you have and what you're learning, and then don't be afraid to reach out to people, because it's really, and this isn't kind of a elitist thing around who you know but it is a lot of times who you know, call someone. You know, I'm, I talk to people all the time. So call someone reach out to someone, start to, you know, increase your network attend events, go to diversity events go to Dama events in your in your city there's Dama chapters all over the world, and just start to network and then through that you can just start to see the jobs out there what are something, some things that I can step into, and don't be afraid to start at a, you know, seemingly entry level, but dig in and grow and you know show your value. So I would, I would do that I think networking is so important, even now I wish I had more time for networking because that's also where we find some of our best, best employees and contractors and just partners in general. And that advice. Kelly thank you so much I mean this has been a fantastic conversation so I have to ask. Yes, and especially an appreciation for you doing this, you know if somebody wants to reach out to you and solicit your services at first San Francisco partners, how would they find you. Yes, so you can find me on LinkedIn. So just email me. So it's pretty simple it's Kelly kele at first San Francisco partners.com. I will tell you that I would recommend that you put something in the title that says, reaching out per your podcast. Otherwise, what might happen is it might just kind of like fall through the data mesh. I'm kidding. Bad joke. Anyway, um, but I do it is, you know, I think be patient. And if you do reach out to me, you know I would ask people to be patient there are some busier times of the year and I will get back to you but it might not be immediate. And then also just you know see who else is out there. For sure there are so many good people in this space, and it's it's just mind boggling and which is why it's really fun, working with smart people is fun. And we'll get that information from you and posted on our website with the podcast so make sure everyone has access to that. Well, again Kelly thank you so much for taking the time to chat with us today. Thank you, I appreciate the invite very much. Alright, have a wonderful day. Thank you. And for all of our listeners out there if you'd like to keep up to date on the latest podcasts and the latest data management education you may go to data diversity net forward slash subscribe until next time. Thank you for listening to data diversity talks brought to you by data diversity. 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