 Well, welcome to the show. We're excited to have both of you on today to talk about the unsold mindset. And I think it would be helpful for our audience to just talk a little bit about what is the unsold mindset to start. Many in our audience aren't necessarily in sales, but they use a lot of these same skills in their career. So we'd love to unpack that for our audience. Everybody is in sales. Like everyone is selling an idea or themselves or a product or a service. You know, if you ask people what they think of when they hear the word salesperson, they'll say yucky, manipulative, pushy. But if you ask them who the greatest salesperson is, they know the top two answers we hear are Martin Luther King Jr. and Steve Jobs. You know, like we hear my mom, my son, like... So the unsold mindset is, you know, we went out and interviewed the greatest sales professionals on the planet. And we were like, hey, like, why are you good? And who's the greatest salesperson you know? And they were introducing us to people that weren't sales professionals. In fact, all of them. You know, like we would intro, we talked the number one salesperson, you know, like at an actual, you know, like B2B sales company, like who's the greatest salesperson you know? And they're like, this trial lawyer, this restaurateur, this judge. We went to the number one salesperson at like a huge company. And we said, who's the best salesperson you know? And they said, he's a John Wexler, the general manager of Yeezy and or was and Adidas influencer marketing, Shopify and Fanatics. Like he doesn't sound like a salesperson. You know, like what we went to Nick Adler who was like, you know, big and like the web 3.0 space. Like who's the best salesperson you know? He's like Snoop Dogg. Like he taught me authenticity. So like all of a sudden they're like, well, wait a minute, like why are people telling us that the greatest salespeople they know are people they admire and they revere. But when we ask them, you know, what they think of when they hear the word salesperson, they think yucky. We're like, this is a crazy incongruence. There's something happening here. Let's go. And what we found was the most successful people on the planet are also the greatest sellers on the planet regardless of what their title is. And they're unsold on what it means to sell. Like they're unsold on like who society expects them to be as a salesperson. You know, they're unsold on who people expect them to be. And so they're not just these like rule breakers but they're just hyper authentic and they have chosen to believe that the world will give them credit because they're imperfect and flawed and make mistakes and they figured out the secret. Like that was what was working for them. And then we started seeing in everyone. The funny part about that exact explanation is that many of us have been on the receiving end of poor salesmanship and that stands out in our mind. And we don't often think about the sales of ideas getting people on board a vision. So all these great salespeople that you talked about they're not on a used car lot. They're not trying to get that extra thing in your cart before you leave the store which is what I think a lot of people think about when it's a salesperson. So of course then it leads to a lot of clients that we work with who are like, well I couldn't go into sales. I don't have the swarminess. I don't have the manipulativeness that a salesperson has but I wouldn't look at any one of those people you mentioned as manipulative, as swarmy, as someone trying to get something over on me. Instead they're admirable people who are taking their ideas and getting the masses on board to create Yeezy's, to create music, to build an iPhone. Yeah, to change the world. That's exactly it. We're in front of audiences a lot as speakers and we teach a class at USC called Sales Mindset for Entrepreneurs. And most of the audiences that we're in front of they're not audiences of salespeople. Our class is a great example. We have every semester we have around 60 undergraduates that come in and a third of them are there to sell themselves. They wanna be leaders, they wanna get jobs, get hired. A third of them are there to sell ideas. They wanna be employees who can get ideas up the chain or they wanna be entrepreneurs. And then only a third of them are the crazy ones that actually wanna sell products and services. So they're all coming at selling from a different angle. And so one of the first things that we do is get everybody to admit, okay, I sell. Whether it's in my job title or more often when it's not it's selling those things yourself, your ideas, your partner on where you're gonna go out to dinner for the weekend, it doesn't really matter. Every single day we're all buying and selling things. And once people realize that and then they start to do the analysis and look at the things that successful people have in common they realize, yeah, those people are really good at getting their ideas across and helping people improve their lives by adopting those ideas or those products. We've had a lot of sales experts on the show and everyone tries to tune in for tactics, strategies, right? What are the shortcuts, the hacks, the objection handlers? And what I love about the book is the mindset piece because you can give two people the same exact script, the same exact tactic, the same exact strategy and one will fall flat on their face and the other will be a top sales person in the company. And it's what's going on between those two ears. How are they viewing the other person on the other side of this conversation? How do they view themselves and what they're going into this conversation as is such a huge part of it. And yet every time we do a show like this we get people saying, but I want this latest tip. I want this latest strategy. What's the newest psychology that I could use to overcome this hurdle that I'm feeling in my sales role? And the other piece to this is what many don't realize is at every point in our career as we move up the ladder, we're selling more. So when you start in a junior position you're fighting to get your code in front of the leader. You're fighting to get, hey, this new idea up the chain. But once you move into these leadership roles every day is a sale. It's a sale upward, it's a sale downward, it's communicating with customers, perspective clients. But yet going back to what we talked about we have this averse reaction to the idea of salesmanship. And so many people you listed probably wouldn't even call themselves salespeople for that exact reason. The whole book, the whole book. Every single person we interview, like I don't know if I'd call myself a salesperson and then list off the exact nine things, right? Like every great seller does. What we found fascinating was that most people when they figure out that they're in a selling situation they try to be the best version of whoever they're supposed to be in that situation. Like when I'm trying to sell my kid on reading, you know, I'm like, well, what would a smart, intelligent like father do, right? Like what would Garrett do? And then I'll try to act like Garrett, right? Or like you're trying to like get promoted or how many times have you like talked to someone and be like, like where's the guy at the bar I was talking to last night? Like you sound nothing like him. You know what I mean? Like when you walk through these doors salespeople were like very, these great salespeople, like they were aware. Like they could say something, know it didn't land and course correct real time. As opposed to the other people that were saying something trying to remember what comes next, right? Like you had this, these people would talk, you'd watch them on Zooms. They would be talking to people and you could see it. They knew the person did not think that they were listening. They, the person thought they were waiting to speak and they were shifting the questions. Everybody's like, tell me the questions to ask. What are the best questions to ask in the interview? Like what are the best questions? It's like what they're really asking, you know, it was like, give me a leading question that I know the answer to that someone else doesn't. So it makes me look smart. You know what the new cool science is saying? We smell bullshit a mile away. Like we know when you're bullshitting us. So like what are they so good at? Like they care differently. They want to know the questions that they're actually asking. It sounds weird, right? It doesn't sound innovative, but most of us don't do that, you know? So I think agency Garrett and chime in with as much science as people are willing to take here. Like for us, what we found is like, there have been some big themes, but agency is one. You ask somebody a question that they've never heard before. For whatever reason, they will ideate on the answer for the first time in real time in front of you. Like whatever the answer is, like they'll take ownership of that. That's their answer. You didn't sell them on that. That has nothing, that's not a tactic. Like the tactic is, why do they care so much to ask that question? That's the tactic. Like you want to talk about like what great sales people do. Like they all get to the end goal differently, but they were all thinking the same thing. They were thinking about the person they were talking to in the exact same way in order to want to ask a question, most people would never care to ask. And that agency that these people are creating, most great salespeople are self-proclaimed salespeople. They just strip agency. You know why people don't buy from you? Because you're right. Because I don't feel part of the process. Because I don't feel part of the decision-making process. Because I don't feel like you care about my two cents. But these great salespeople, they're not selling. They're doing a great job of instilling in reaffirming agency. A word that came up a few times so far is authenticity. And so much of what we see in sales training and what we listen to in these podcasts or read in these books creates an inauthenticity in the way we're asking that question, why we're moving to that next step, how we're following the decision tree on the page to get to, okay, now I can go a level deeper and dig into the pain. But yet every single person that you said is a great salesperson comes from an authentic place. So how do we manage this where it's like the training is taking us outside of authenticity and taking us into probably conversational pathways that feel transactional, don't feel good to us. But the person who's actually buying with a high BS meter is really buying the authenticity, not buying the strategy or the tactic you're using. That's exactly what you were saying earlier. These great sellers, and we'll call them sellers and not salespeople because they have all these roles, but these great sellers aren't great because of what they do. They're great because of what they think. We all have these same tactics. And so what happens, what we see a ton with young salespeople especially, but it's true across the board, but we see it a lot with students who get out into the real world, is they get out there and they find themselves in a selling situation and they think that they're supposed to act a certain way and they're supposed to know certain things and they're supposed to do what a quote unquote great seller is supposed to do. And so they'll go out there and they'll do these things. They'll look to some example, somebody in their company, maybe the best salesperson, the top performer in their company, they'll look at that person and they'll say, what is he or she doing? And I'm gonna do exactly what they're doing. I'm gonna ask the same questions. I'm gonna use the same script. I'm gonna tell the same jokes. And then they go out in front of a customer and they do just that and the customer doesn't buy. And they're like, well, wait a minute, I did exactly what the best person on the team is doing. Why didn't it work? Can't be my fault. Now it's gotta be the customer's fault or it's gotta be something outside of me because it's not me. I did everything that that person's doing. And that's really the core of authenticity. The reason that it works for the best performer in the room is because it's authentic to them. And they ask questions that they actually wanna know the answers to. And they tell jokes that they think are funny that maybe somebody else doesn't quite think is funny. So when you start to try to pretend to be something, you know, we say in our book and remind people often, you can't act authentic. You literally can't. By definition, you can't act authentic. I don't think it's fair to say that these folks who are put in this role are pretending to be somebody else. They're programmed to model. They're programmed to model success. And so if they're gonna see success, that's what they're going to mimic in order to get those results. Now the problem comes when they're not getting the results that they're looking for of what they are going to do to make changes to get the results that the other person is getting. When they get stuck in the mud and they're just spinning their wheels, well, now it's fair to say, well, because you're continuing down this path, you're modeling somebody, somebody else's authenticity, which makes you inauthentic. And so what are you going to do to bring your own authenticity into this role? Right, that's the disconnect between, I think what, you know, the quote unquote customer, the buyer, the disconnect between who they actually want you to be and who you think like you should be, like as yourself. You know, when Garrett talks about like copying and like pretending to be someone and you hit it like Johnny, you were like, they're modeling to be this person. What, where the disconnect is, is they're assuming the reason why it's working is the words that are coming out of their mouth. But that's not the reason, right? That's not actually the authenticity, right? Like what works is that they wanted to know a question. So they asked. That's completely different than asking the question. To get good, you're going to have to mimic a model. In the book you pointed out about Jimi Hendrix. I'm a guitar player. I started out learning every guitar or Jimi Hendrix lick I could copy and mimic. And then in order to bring my own self into that, bend and change every one of those licks, so they became unique to me as a player. And so being able to find these successful people to model them will at least get you moving in the right direction because let's face it, a lot of people in that room, in that classroom, are going to be terrified as all to hell to get on that phone and start making cold calls. However, you give them a roadmap or something to model that makes that process a little bit easier. And then when they realize, okay, I've made a few cells but I'm not banging numbers that I should be, I'm going to have to start making modifications then to what I'm doing here until I reach those results. So then perhaps you might look at some other pieces and drag those into what you have been modeling until where you find yourself becoming unique and an individual in that process. So that takes patience and that takes, well, patience takes time, but it is that process. Most importantly though, is when you understand that things are not working, and this is where you guys were talking about how it's easy and all cells people do this. I catch myself doing it all the time, is the minute things aren't working, I start blaming their customers and the prospects. And only to realize why I can't blame them, they're the ones signing up for a call, they're the ones who are interested in what's going on. So finding to be honest about what I can change in my processes and what those sellers can change in their processes to get those results that they're looking for. And I think the book has a wonderful way of flipping the script. So rather than blaming the others and or looking for, as AJ was mentioning tactics to get me what I want of a transactional call, it's, well, we're going to reverse the mindset here and we're going to look at you as somebody who is giving value in this conversation, equaling the playing field, bringing yourself down as not a coach on this call, which for somebody who is a coach, that's a difficult thing to do to where you're not, you're now a teammate and you guys are going to walk through this together. And at the end of this, this person has to feel that you have their best interests in mind and you know the way to go to help them get the results that they are looking for. Yeah, there's so much to address there and really in the best way possible. I love your example of as you're learning to play guitar and you're learning the Jimmy Hendrix licks because at some point, you know, you're listening to the record over and over and you're copying the notes and at some point you've got those notes exactly. And you know, you and I can sit there and do that for hours and hours and hours. We're still not going to sell out a stadium and move the people the way that Jimmy moved the people. But then as you start to make it your own and you start to do that, then you start to have your own following and people are realizing that you're putting your own spin on. That's exactly what we're talking about here and what these great sellers are doing, whatever their industry is, is setting up the infrastructure to give themselves permission to do that. Because a lot of people, you know, like we kind of talked about earlier, they feel constrained by expectations or by what they think they're supposed to be but building the infrastructure to give yourself permission to go outside those lines and to say, okay, Jimmy played it this way but I'm going to play it a little bit differently because now I have a style of my own and Colin, I mean, I think it's a great opportunity to go into one or two of those examples of how these sellers do that because you talk about it's not tactics, it's a way to get yourself into a certain frame of mind. I find it fascinating that you are both talking about guitar playing as if it's just something that everyone can do. Like for me, you know, the opposite happened. I tried to like mimic Jimmy and I realized I was better playing the Jim Bay. You know what I mean? Like so I said, and like in the book, it's the same thing, right? Like Johnny brought up the good points. Like you model, like I was told to do something and I was so bad at it that it was when I gave up, you know, when I tried to screw over the establishment and say, okay, let me get fired anyways, I'm gonna do the opposite of what you taught me. That was when like you break the sales record, you know? So like, I think that the contrast is important. Yeah, we can talk, listen, authenticity is tricky because this is Chef Roy Choi told us, he was like, you know, you can't, I've lived multiple authentic lives. You know, like he's, and he's also the best sales person in any room doesn't want to be the smartest person in every room refuses to be like, and so during COVID, like we saw a bunch of people that were not doing well historically thrive because of this. And during COVID in the book, we talk about this group of under performers and then during COVID, they just assumed everybody was feeling the same way that they were feeling, they were freaking out. So they would join these calls and they would just start by saying, yo, I just want to say, I don't even know if we should be having this call. Like this is scary. That's my two year old. That's my wife behind me with the mask on. I don't even know if we should be in the same room right now. You know, like I'm just calling it out. I know you accepted this calendar invite, but this is really weird. And all the time that people on the other end of the zoom, they're like, thank God you said that this shit is so weird. Like this is my first pandemic too. And you would, in 10 seconds, you would see these people like just live through this shared experience and become teammates immediately and talk for 10 minutes authentically about like what they were scared of. But like the mind, right? Like they assumed everyone was freaking out. So they gave themselves a permission that Garrett's talking about to be authentic. We saw a bunch of historically high performers really do bad during COVID because they just didn't change. They showed up, didn't act like there was a pandemic going on and just said, okay, here's the agenda for today. You know, meanwhile, like people's like parents are dying, you know, and so authenticity is tricky and there's no right way to do it. But we did find that that's been the superpower. Like no one is better at being Garrett than Garrett. Well, there's an example that General McChrystal talks about of intentional ignorance. And you sort of touched on it that there's this acknowledgement that they're not the smartest person in the room. They don't have all the answers. And the second you try to pretend you do have the answers or again, BS your way through a question you don't know the answer to, you fall flat on your face. And I've done some sales at the company and every once in a while I'll get a question, what do your competitors do? How are they different? And I'll say, I honestly don't know but doing this for 15 years and every day I get up trying to make the art of charm just a little bit better. I'm not so worried about what so and so is doing. And we've evolved quite a bit since I would probably consider them competitors. I couldn't tell you what they're up to but happy to have you check out both and see what's the best fit. And there's like a sigh of like, oh, you know, it feels good. It feels like, hey, AJ is being real with me now. Not, oh great, this is a chance for AJ to launch into his pitch of the three reasons why to choose the art of charm and why are the other guys bad guy. And there are these moments in every interaction where you have that choice. Show up authentically, drop the frame, drop the script and say, I'm here, going through a pandemic. I don't know that answer. I don't know what the next best step for you is but I'm happy to be having this conversation right now. And as Johnny said, if we leave this call where you got some value and maybe that value is not working with us that's still a win for everybody. And what I liked is this concept of moving from transactional which is what I think a lot of people anchor sales to transformational. Realizing that it's not about the numbers, incentivizing sales people to hit all these numbers and this transaction that's sort of baked into these sales roles. And it's looking at the other person empathetically and trying to figure out how can we transform this conversation to give meaning and value to both of us and wherever the cards fall from there. If it works out and you're working with us, great. I'm super excited. I believe that we're gonna help you. If it doesn't work out, great. I'm happy we had this conversation and you got to a place where you move forward. You made a decision. You clarified whether or not the art of charm is for you. And to Johnny's point, I've left calls feeling really great knowing that we're not working with this person. We're not the right fit. It's not the right place for them. Happy to introduce them to a friend. Keep listening to the podcast. Super glad that you found us and you're a fan versus what a lot of new sales people and even people we've brought on board to try to train up. Like they get so hung up on those numbers in the transaction. And then the commission that comes out of it and all the wins for them that they forget there's another person on the other side of this that is walking away from this with something. You touch in on two of our favorite subjects that we sort of uncovered in this book process. Intentional ignorance, we ended up having to give an entire chapter to that because it just kind of blew our minds the way that that and then of course, thinking transformationally versus transactionally but I want to stay on intentional ignorance for a second because there's two elements to it. There's one which is what you said where customers pick up on inauthenticity. I mean, even just when there is science that shows that even the tiniest bit of inauthenticity and that can mean something as big as making shit up about your product, which unfortunately some people do but it can also be something as small as just asking a question where you don't actually care about the answer. We pick up on that on the other side of the table or on the other side of the phone and we realize that like, oh, this person's trying to sell us. There's a science that I promise Colin, I won't get into, but there's a concept called schemer schema which is basically we all have this schema, this framework in our heads of what we think people who are scheming against us i.e. sometimes salespeople are trying to do when we put up these walls. And so intentional ignorance in that context is a great way to avoid coming across as inauthentic. But I think even more importantly than that or as important as that Colin is the way that we saw people using intentional ignorance to show up as a different person, as a better version of themselves to show up really authentically and to move differently and to care more. When you are an entrepreneur, you know your product better than anybody because you've created it, you've built it, you've slaved every day putting it together and now that you're at a place where you don't even go to sleep unless you know that you can sell X amount so that you can pay rent. Yes. So at what point or where can you find places for intentional ignorance to give you that space to help you along so you're not overselling, so you're not value selling, so you're not getting stuck into all the details that lead to overselling. There's two different options here, right? I think one is social awareness and one is self-awareness. So I'll give you two examples. One example was we interviewed a great ad tech exec like she was fired. She was so good at her job and she doesn't love tech. She just doesn't enjoy it. If she likes selling, she loves people, she loves companies, relationships, she's just not a tech person. Like it doesn't give her energy. So every time she has to talk about tech, she's acting like she's excited about it, but she's not. So she chose a long time ago to decide that if she was gonna show up as the best, most authentic version of herself, she was gonna say I don't know a lot. And so she started saying I don't know and she started realizing that every time she said I don't know, it would be followed up with like, but I will go and find it for you. She was like getting this credit for being resourceful when before she had the answer, she was being discredited for like having the answer and not being able to add on any value, right? Like so she decided to like say I don't know, she would either bring people on and say let me go find someone smarter than me. And as soon as she brings someone to the table, she's on the same team as the customer. And like she loves it, she knew it. She was like, look, when I bring my sales engineer, I go, hey, me and the customer wanna know if you can tell us about the API configuration. Like immediately by just not being the smartest person in the room, but we also, you know, that's socially aware. We've met people that are intentionally ignorant to data. Like in the book, right? There's this number one sales person, they say he sells the unsellable. And we're like, how do you do it? What's your prep look like? He goes, well, I don't look at the pharmacographic information from the lead. I have no idea where they're from. We're like, why would you do that? There's an advantage to that. He's like, yeah, there's also a disadvantage. I know the propensity of someone who's gonna buy in the Northwest versus the Northeast. And guess what happens if I talk to someone from the Northeast? Like I'm gonna show up differently. And it's like, it's not a coincidence that they say he sells the unsellable. So intentional ignorance to Garrett's point. Like it's just, it's creating infrastructure so that you don't have to show up like acting like you're excited about something that you're authentically not. And Johnny, you're talking about entrepreneurs and the passion that they have for everything and where do they step back and create the space for intentional ignorance. And one thing that we found, and we know this to be true, is founders, CEOs, they're always the best sales person in the room for exactly the reason that you just said. It's because they're the ones that put everything on the line and believed in this idea so much that they had to go out there and bring it to life. And so for those people, because of their passion about the product and the thing that they built, we wouldn't recommend that they stay ignorant on that. They wouldn't want to. There's no reason for them to, because they're excited, because they know every detail. But as a business scales, there are gonna be other pieces of the business that they may not like as much. Sales might be one of them or marketing or operations or whatever it might be. And in those cases, there are definitely opportunities for them to do what Colin's talking about and bring smarter people and people who have that passion to fill in those gaps and make them a better entrepreneur and allow them to just focus on what they love and what they're gonna be most enthusiastic about. I thought General Stanley McGriffville handled it the best. He was like, you expect me to be a general and tell people what to do. It's the last thing I wanna do. I'm showing up in these rooms and I am purposefully not having the answer so that my people feel empowered to own the answer. Because if I'm not in the field with them, what happens? Going along with that, it creates the space for buy-in, right? We don't like being lectured at. We don't like being talked to. We want that agency to feel like whether we're marching onto the battlefield or we're signing this year-long SaaS contract or we're signing up for coaching or we're buying that car off the lot, that it was our choice. Not that we got arm wrestled into it and we got the general manager on the phone barking at us but instead that simple shift of, hey, I don't know but let me bring a team member on and now become the teammate of the prospect and say, yeah, show me how to do that. I wanna make sure that we have this feature specifically for this person. Well, holy cow, does that prospect, that future customer feel the authenticity in that interaction? It's a difficult balance as Johnny was talking about because there's this propensity when we're super excited about something and we're going after the incentives that are created in a lot of these roles that we try to fake those moments of being the smart person, having the answer, having that quick comeback, the pitch ready to go. And one of my early mentors, we were talking and I was like, I hate sales. And he's like, exactly your point, Garrett. What are you talking about? You're the greatest salesman on your team. And I'm like, but I don't get on the phone. I don't talk to potential customers. He's like, but you have 15 people on your team. You created this company from nothing. You know, hard it is to get 15 strangers to buy into your dream and to work for you. Like that's the ultimate sell. And the investor, right, that you had to sell. That shift, right? It's like, oh, okay. And that's what I, the book is full of shifts, mindset shifts for you as a sales professional or an entrepreneur or even a manager to realize that if you take a different perspective, if you look at it through another lens, you might find this other side of you that allows that conversation to be more fun, more authentic, more genuine and allows the other person on the other end of that to feel something good out of that conversation because there's nothing worse than hanging up a call, leaving an investor meeting, walking out of a pitch, feeling like you faked it and knowing that the other people in that room could tell you faked it too. Fires remorse. We found, not to dog our own book because I'm really proud of it obviously, it's not anything innovative. It's just that people, like people do this stuff that's in the book all the time. They're just not aware of it. We talk about like catching people talking to themselves out loud, which seems like, okay, you know what I mean? Like, yeah, sure. Like people talk to themselves out loud. Sometimes it's a little weird, but Garrett and I saw almost every interview do it, but it was only because we were looking for it, but we were talking to these great salespeople. So we came in with our like walls up, right? We were like, look, we're talking to like some of the, we're talking with the best salespeople in the city right now, you know, like let's learn, let's look for why he's such a good salesperson. He introduces himself. He's like, hey, my name is Jason. I'm the senior vice president at MeStops. He looks up at the ceiling and goes, why do I keep doing this? He looks back and goes and start over again. And, you know, he just wanted to reintroduce himself. But like, you know, he brought us on this high. Like we looked back at the recording. We were like, why were we looking for the good in this dude for the last hour? That's not what we've been doing. And it was because in the beginning of the call, we had this like three second, like micro moment of connection that like we just weren't expecting. Like we knew for those three seconds, he wasn't selling us. And then we saw it everywhere. I mean, Garrett, right? The trial lawyer? Yeah, there's literally two conversations later. We're talking to one of the top trial lawyers in California and he's just telling us this story about a time he was in front of a judge and a jury and he said something and the judge asked him asked him to stop and repeat himself and say, can you please repeat that last statement you made? And he stopped and probably the same thing looked up at the ceiling and then looked back at the judge and said, your honor, I have no idea what I just said. And the judge laughs and the jury laughs and it was like this, okay, this person is not selling me right now. This person is a human being that's scared just like I am or nervous just like I am and forgets what they say sometimes. And it's not something that he or any of the other people that we were talking to were doing as a tactic. It was just they had given themselves permission. They had built the infrastructure either mentally or literally around themselves to be that authentic and be that vulnerable in selling conversations, which is exactly what a trial is. You're trying to sell your client's story to the jury. So that I think is what we're so excited about with this book is like it's simple things as Colin says. It's not stuff that you've never heard of or never thought of before, but when you see it in the context of all of these individuals and how they're applying and how successful they've become because of it, it really becomes something that we don't think has been written before and we're really proud of that. Now, when it comes to selling yourself, selling product services, rejection is the scariest part and the best salespeople fail more times than they succeed. So there's this unique resiliency and thick skin that comes along with that authenticity that allows them to pick themselves back up, go back into the courtroom the next day with a new client, go back into the next boardroom and try to pitch Nike on Yeezys. There is this ability to walk away from rejection and get right back on the horse and do it again. And when we started this company, we were really focused on dating. We're doing a lot of single guys and that was like the ultimate rejection of how do we avoid rejection, right? It's kind of like all the tactics and strategies in the dating realm that people look for, but there's this ability with great sellers to take that, learn from it, tweak and move on instead of hold onto it, shut down and give up. So how can we build that adaptive resiliency that allows us to keep moving on if rejection is the name of the game in all of these situations and it's unavoidable? I think it starts with understanding learned optimism. I think that that's really interesting. For instance, Garrett and I did not meet our wives because our ex-girlfriends were perfect. No offense to our ex-girlfriends, right? So at some point, what ends up happening is with age and experience, you start to realize that if you wanna have a breakthrough, you actually have to break through something, that there has to be an obstacle, there has to be a rejection. So when you look at these people and you say, wait, how are you so okay with what's happening right now? With you getting rejected with you not winning, it's a self-fulfilling prophecy, right? It's like they're not looking at this as a mile marker or as a finish line. They're looking at it as a mile marker. If they think that they will actually succeed, they will continue to try as naive as it sounds and eventually they'll be right. And so we were finding that these people were attaching purpose to everything that they were doing, right? Even though we were so goal-oriented, right? And we were trying to figure out like, yeah, how are you hitting these goals? Like how are you mastering goal orientation? Like, are you looking at it every single day? And they were just trying to figure out a way to tell us what their purpose was. And it was like this, that every time we would see it, like they just weren't looking at the goal or of hitting it or not hitting it. It wasn't causing them to go into a place of scarcity. It was just causing them to want to figure it out even more. Like they cared differently about the goal because it was attached to a purpose. So resiliency has a lot to do with the conversations you have with yourself. Yeah, purpose is definitely a big one. And there's a lot of what these great people are doing from a mindset standpoint too is reframing things. And it can sound really cringy and cheesy to say, oh, you reframe your failure as a positive thing. But, you know, Colin's example about meeting our wives is a good one. Like it's easier to do in the past. What these great people do is they do it in the moment. And there's a concept that in the book called that we talk about a lot as well called celebrating the process. And that's really, really important to us. It's something that we discovered from all of these greats and it's something that we've definitely incorporated into our own lives. And what we mean by celebrating the process is they're not just celebrating the wins. They're not celebrating the closed deals. They're celebrating the failures and the hangups and the lessons along the way. Because they know that, okay, I got hung up on or I got rejected or I got this objection that I couldn't overcome because it was legitimate. I'm gonna celebrate that because now I'm gonna learn from it and I'm going to figure out what I'm gonna do next time so that it doesn't happen again. And so what these people have done is they've taken sales and they've changed it from a game of prolonged gratification of waiting for the next closed deal, which in some sales cycles can take months and months and months. And they've created this game of prolonged gratification where they're literally celebrating things, sometimes literally, like we talked to one company and they did this thing they call the hangup hangout. And they would get their sales team together on Friday and they would get some beers or pizzas or whatever they did. And the sales team would come and they would talk about the most epic hangups of the week. People who just got cussed out or hung up on immediately or told a joke and then got the phone slammed down, whatever it was, and they would celebrate that. And then they would talk about the lessons that they learned from it. And the rule was that they couldn't have that same hangup the next week because they were gonna learn those lessons. So celebrate the process is a big way for folks to increase resiliency. And in the moment, it can be hard when there are shady days and there are tough times and there are bad things that happen and we don't trivialize that. Like that is real. But in the long term, if you can kind of raise that default level of happiness and start to celebrate the process along the way, as many of these people we talked to did, then resilience becomes a lot easier. I love the idea of hang out, hang up or hang up hangouts. It's easy to take a lot of that rejection personally, especially when the product and you guys are talking to and helping entrepreneurs sell their products. So when you have so much personal emotion and energy and effort and stake at creating this product and getting it out there, those rejections are that much more personal because here's what we always tell everyone when they get rejected. Oh, you're not getting rejected. Your approach is getting rejected or you're not getting rejected. The way you are selling is getting rejected. But when you have built and slaved over your product, that rejection over that product, it's harder to deflect that when you have so much at stake in it and you basically need a psychological walkthrough of that process to declutter all of the personal rejection that you put on yourself. I don't care what anyone says. It does chip away at you when you hear no, and as I mentioned, especially when you've slaved over it. And so finding how to get better from it and realizing that these are opportunities of growth and strength building, but you also need support into realizing that because taking that on yourself and then having you work through it on your own is a tall order to ask. I mean, AJ and I have been working at this company and building it for 16 years. So our meetings and going through these things are incredibly important. It allows both of us to shake off the week, whether it was good or as celebrate good weeks and shake off the crap if it was a bad week. Yeah. To exercise and looking for the good, it's not easy. How do you look for the good and like failure? Like that's not, like that takes time. What's funny around no is that both sides are allergic to it. So very rarely do you actually get a hard no. Right. You'll get a tepid excuse, check back in later. I got to talk to someone else. I'm thinking about it, sounds great. You'll hear from me next week. Very, very rarely do you get a hard no. When we were starting again with the dating front, we had this challenge of going after the no because we're so afraid of getting a no because a no is such a firm rejection. And I'll never forget, we were out one night with our clients and the challenge was get to the no, anyone, talk to anyone. This guy thought he'd be funny. He walks up to a total stranger at the bar and says, sees a set of keys on the bar and he goes, hey, can I borrow your car? And the guy looks him up and down and goes, well, what do you need it for? And our client's a little panicked. He's like, oh, I just got to pick up my friend. They're stuck. And he's like, yeah, sure. And he hands him his keys to his 9-11. And he comes back to us holding these car keys and he's like, I went in thinking I'd get a no and now I have keys to a 9-11. What do I do with this? And it's just such a great point that oftentimes we stop short of even getting the no. We sell ourselves short and we're convinced we're gonna get the no. We're gonna get rejected. They're gonna say absolutely not. And I'll never forget, I've had calls where clients are like, I need to think about it. And then eight months later, they're reaching out to me and they're joining the program. And if I had just hung up and said, oh, it's their fault and I can't believe them and screw this and blah, blah, blah, you know, I would have taken that rejection personally. And now realizing there are actually good no's. And you talk about this concept in the book. I love to introduce it and share because Johnny and I know there are good no's where you can actually change and adjust and adapt. So we went through the pandemic, the bulk of our coaching before the pandemic was in person. We were launching this online coaching program, X Factor Accelerator. We didn't know if it was the right fit, if it was gonna land. And we were getting some people saying, no, not right now. It's not a good fit for me. And we would follow up with, well, I understand you don't wanna work together. Can we just understand a little bit further, why it's a clear no for you. And their responses really helped us iterate and improve the coaching program. And we realized that, hey, a year of coaching is too big of a commitment. Actually, six months is what people are looking for. And actually they want more touch points on Zoom and less videos to watch on their own. And we are able to reconfigure product market fit based on getting the real no and getting the understanding of where the no is coming from instead of, okay, gotta go, gotta bang out the next call, you're not a good fit. Yeah, well, Colin, I'll let you talk about kind of the good, no, bad, no thing. But before that, I gotta add, I wouldn't be doing my job as the logical partner in this duo here of not talking about why people are wishy-washy on giving a no and why we don't like getting nos in the first place. And that's all just evolution. Because thousands of years ago when humans were just starting to evolve, if you got shunned by the group, you were dead. You were getting eaten by a saber-toothed tiger or something crazy like that. So, everything in our DNA wants us to be accepted. So whether we're telling somebody no, we don't want them to reject us. We don't want them to think negatively of us when we say no, just like we don't like to hear the word no because it feels like rejection and we feel like we're gonna get cast out. So it is in our DNA. So when you talk about the fact, Johnny, that it's no fun to get a no and you do take it personally, that's not our fault. That is our DNA, that is human nature and that is why we do it. And it's why it's so important to reframe it and do some of the things that we talk about in the book, Colin. Yeah. I don't know if it's not not our fault, but I do know what you've been. There's a level of accountability I know that we want, but I do, I agree with Garrett. I mean, and look, you just said something really interesting, which was what if you hadn't made that call? Like that's why resilience is so important, right? That's why I learned after it was so important is the average touch point, the amount of touch points it takes to close a deal. I don't know what it is today, but two months ago, we're talking about eight to 12 touch points. Imagine how many people get to touch point seven and then just stop. And that's not, that's something to do with maybe tracking more meaningful metrics, but also just has more to do with why would somebody want to make an eighth call? Why is that important? You talked to a lot of people, they want to avoid the objection. I mean, you know this from dating, right? It's like, you want to avoid the objection. Please lie to me. Make me feel like I got this deal. Like we're going to go all the way high until I ask you to buy and then you're going to shut me down. But you know, like what if like you wanted to know where the friction was as early as possible, not to like when, but to like actually solve the problems? Like you would ask hard questions, like often and early. And like that's an example, you know? Like the, my girlfriend example, my ex-girlfriend example is one of many that Garrett and I use a lot around these really successful people. Like early on in your career, like you try to avoid the friction. And so you realize that like anything like really awesome that happened to you happened because you learned from something, right? Where there was friction, you were able to overcome it, you were able to build from it. And like at some point, you realize that like if you want that, you have to look for it. So then you start seeking friction. You start looking for problems to solve. You're looking for knows, right? I mean like, that's a whole mindset shift that takes time and that's sales IQ, right? Like sales IQ is directly correlated to this awareness that we're talking about. But yeah, we love knows. Reject us all day. How else are we gonna get better? Well, it's hard to have optimism in the face of all of those knows. And my wife has often accused me of having pathological optimism. But I feel on the flip side, it's allowed me to stay in business for 16 years. It's allowed me through all of the downturns, all of the financial stress to keep believing that tomorrow we're gonna make that next sale. We're gonna close that next deal. We're gonna get this thing shipped and launched. And there is that panic around the pandemic and I maintain this optimism. And my wife being a realist is like, yo, we can't even get two packages of meat from the grocery store right now. Like how are you convinced that you're gonna get another coaching client tomorrow? And I'm like, well, the problem still remains. Like people are struggling to connect. People want relationships. It doesn't matter if the grocery store had a run on ground turkey. Like tomorrow they're still gonna want to not feel lonely. So our product works and we know it works. But there's also this culture now that's trending on social media around toxic positivity and like, you can't be so positive and it's unrealistic. How do we find that balance of when the optimism is right for us then when we're steering ourselves astray with being toxic in our positivity? We totally understand the backlash against toxic positivity. And it's fair. I think what toxic positivity is saying is that if the message is just cheer up, if you decide to be happy, you can be happy. That's sort of like end of story period. That is what toxic positivity backlash is against. Yeah, something really, really existentially terrible could have happened today. And I can't just think, oh, I'm gonna be happy about this. I'm gonna look back on this and it's gonna be okay. That's not fair and we agree with that. But there's this concept, I'm gonna go science again on you Colin, but there's this concept of the hedonic treadmill that comes up sometimes in psychological research. And it basically says that when something good happens, our happiness goes up, when something bad happens, our happiness goes down. But at the end of the day, our happiness always reverts to this default baseline level for each individual. And that can be different for you than it is for me and different for Colin than it is for someone else. But we all default to our baseline. And so as we were talking to all of these successful people and sort of crystallizing the concept of pathological optimism, what we realized is that what they're doing is they're creating habits that are ultimately raising that baseline level of happiness. So no, they are not happy when a tragic thing happens to a family member or when business goes bad one day, like really bad. But over time, because of the ability to look back and to reframe certain situations and to be a learner, they're able to increase that default level of happiness. And that's really what we mean when we're talking about pathological optimism is that in the long term, that's the mindset and that's the trend that they're going after. And the byproduct, the byproduct of pathological optimism, like if you walk into a conversation with someone and you assume they're going to buy, then you're having a conversation with someone where like you don't need anything from them anymore. Like if they've already bought, how different is that conversation? Like you're having like a raw conversation with someone, like you're actually telling them like how you could help them when you think that they've already bought. You know, you talk about like Steve Jobs and like Martin Luther King, Jr. Like that conviction came from like, duh, obviously you want this in the power of your hand. Like obviously you want equality, right? That's not the hard part. Like I assume that's what you want. That's crazy. People wanted keyboards or blackberries, you know what I mean? Like that pathological optimism is what helped change the world. So yeah, I tell the story all the time to the students that students are always thinking this is worst case scenario because you know, at the age that they are, it all, you know, they haven't had enough time to like reflect. And I'm like, look, in 2009, like there was this thing called it like the great recession like I had to move to Northern California. Like my life was taken from me. Like all my friends still stayed in LA. I hated it. Then I finally moved back. All my friends were like living with each other and I didn't have a place to live and I ended up having to like live with like roommates that I just met that were here from New York and they would always have people over. And one day some people came over that were living in New York and visiting and that person's now my wife and I would have not been on this podcast or had this book or taught at USC or any of the successful things that had happened to me. Like post 2009 if it hadn't been for that damn recession. So I can look back and be like, okay, this is obviously not worst case scenario. Like I just don't know yet. But if I have the mindset of like, there's a reason this is happening, that's not necessarily pathologically optimistic. It's logical. It can't be worst case scenario because I'm here right now. So it's a little fru-fru, but you know. I like the yin and the yang here of giving the fru-fru and backing it up with the science. It's a lot of what Johnny and I do in our courses and part of a lot of this stuff in terms of the sales process or even just building great connections with people is a curiosity. Again, going back to that authenticity and there's a part in the book and Johnny and I have both experienced this on our sales calls where you really get curious about the person you're talking to and you end up asking a really impactful question. A question that makes them stop and think and you talked a little bit about this before. We kind of know we're signing up for a call. We know we're going on the car lot. They're gonna ask us certain things. They're gonna want us to do certain things. We have that mapped out. But then there are these moments where you ask an impactful question. The person on the other end has never had to think about that, never really felt seen or heard in that way, never had to work through that and it transitions into like almost a therapy session. Like, wow, this person can really unveil their true self and feel validated in that moment and almost without fail, that leads to that prospect saying, I wanna work with you guys. I'm signing up for the X factor. This is exactly where I need to be. But again, when you read them on paper, you're like, oh yeah, I'll just throw in some impactful questions and my sales numbers are gonna go through the roof. But without the authenticity, it doesn't work. So what did you notice about these really amazing sellers and their ability to just ask these questions that make the other person think totally different perspective? I actually don't think that their magic was that they were great question askers. Like I think the magic was they wanted to know answers that no one else wanted to know. And like, that's a mindset conversation that's probably two steps back. Like, what did they do prior to that conversation? Cause everyone asked the first question. Everyone has to ask the first question, right? Carlott or, you know, investment banker. But the second question, like when you hear that answer and you're like, well, wait a minute, like that was, so you that you, the acquisition happened while your wife was in her third trimester. Like how did that, what happened then? Like, how did you handle all of that? And like, well, shit, you know, like first of all, good research, you know, like, like you're right. And this is how I felt, you know what I mean? And like, and that feeling I had maybe never really articulated. For the first time I am and that's agency. Like at the end of the day, this is all commoditized. I mean, even like this podcast, it's like an awesome podcast. There's a lot of awesome podcasts out there. So people a lot of times are making decisions just based off of who they'd rather spend more time with. You know, that has a lot more to do with like, you wanting to know things, you being, you being enamored with the person that you're talking to. Like, you know, like Garrett and I tread lightly on the L word, you know, like we don't like to talk about love without a lot of context, but you want to see a great salesperson? Like look at somebody who's enamored with the person they're talking to. Like the best version of Garrett Brown is the 14 year old version of Garrett Brown. He had a crush on somebody in junior high school. He didn't talk more. He talked less. He thought the shit she was saying was funny. Nobody else thought it was funny, but that was authentic. That was authentic. You know, so it's like there's this, you can't hack it. You can't think like, oh, I'm gonna ask this really good question. They're gonna be impressed, right? Either you know the answer or you don't actually want to know the answer. Well, the last piece I want to touch on for a lot who are in the sales role right now, it's goal, goal, goal, right? It's like one of the most goal oriented roles you can have. The numbers are there. Everyone's talking about goals. There are incentives tied to the goals, but there's a section in the book around purposeful goals and where goals can actually lead us astray and hurt us both from a mindset piece, but also in the way that we're actually showing up in these conversations and actually having the conversation with the prospect. So how should we view goals? And what can we do, even if our company or the role we're in are creating goals that might lead us down the wrong path mentally? Yeah, goals are important. We're not gonna sugarcoat that. Every single person that we talk to is a successful person is goal-oriented. They have goals of their own. They have goals for their company that their employers or their boards or whoever it is sets for them and they're important. But where they stand out is that they're not viewing those goals as finish lines. They're viewing those goals as myo markers. And the reason for that is, there's a handful of reasons for that. One is they know what happens when you get to a point where a goal is coming up and you know you're not gonna reach it. That's where a lot of the sales behavior for the salespeople specifically that gives the stereotype the bad name. That's where that comes from because you're getting to the end of the month and you're not gonna hit your quota and then you start to do things and say things and act in a way that maybe is not how you would authentically do it if you didn't have that pressure. So that's a big part of why they look at goals as not enough. The second piece is that, and we've all experienced this, you hit a goal, right? You've been working, you're trying, you define this goal, you work towards it, time has passed and you've achieved this goal. Now what happens? That's it, you're happy forever? No, right? You know that you then have to go out and set the next goal. Because of that, I think a lot of these people that we spoke to, we realized they understood that. And so because they were viewing goals as mile markers, they needed something else that was sort of the finish line, whether it was a real finish line or an ephemeral finish line. And that for them was their purpose. And it wasn't something that we started out looking for or asking about, but we realized pretty quickly in these conversations that we were having with very successful people that they were leading the conversations with their purpose. We had a conversation with the chief marketing officer of a massive global tech company. And literally 37, 38 seconds into the recording of our interview as we're going back and reviewing it, he's telling us his purpose and he's telling us how it's driven his career and the people that he works with and the decisions that he makes. And we were just blown away by that because then of course we start seeing it over and over again. So what people are doing, what these people are doing, what these unsold sellers, is they have their goals and their goals are important, but they're tying those goals to a larger purpose so that when they don't hit them or even when they do and they know they have to set another one, they realize that they're progressing towards something that's bigger and more important and more meaningful to them. I also think it changes you like when you create your purpose. You know, like in our keynotes, we ask people, like, hey, raise your hand if you have goals and everyone raises their hand. And then we're like, okay, only keep your hand up if you also have them like written down so when you look at them every day, like half the hands go down, but the hands that are up are still really proud. And they're like, okay, now only keep your hands up if in addition to having your goals articulated and you look at them every day, you also have your purpose articulated and you look at it every day. And most every hand like sheepishly goes down except for like one or two. We're like, all right, you know what? If you have your purpose articulated, you can put your hand back up, even if it's not written down and like no hands go up. And there's only these two people in the room, like there's thousands of people and there's always a few hands left and you're just looking at them and they're the top performers, they're the CEOs, they're the entrepreneurs, like they're the ones that risked it all, right? And got to the other end and like have these like battle scars and are so purpose driven that that's the only reason that they got there. And you know what these people look like, you know, like not to get too like emotional, but you've been in a room with someone that like has magnetic energy. You know, people are like, what is that? What is it about that person, right? Like everyone's gravitating towards. Normally they have their purpose articulated and they see it in you. Like AJ, like it was a vibe, even if you hated me, because like you're helping me like articulate my purpose to the world, right? Like I see my purpose in you, right? I am going to treat you differently even if I don't know you. Like the only other reason why like, I could feel magnetic in a room full of strangers and like gravitate towards someone is if I've already written down my purpose, it's pretty easy to recognize a purpose driven person. And you like real recognizes real, you know what I mean? But it's not magic, it's not a law of attraction. Well, there are younger members of this audience probably some that could be in your course and their next follow up question is great guys. Like, yeah, Steve Jobs has his purpose. Yeah, Elon Musk has his purpose, but I'm 20. My first job is going door to door selling garage door painting. Like there's no purpose in painting garage doors. How do I actually find my purpose if I'm in an entry level job and I'm forced to do the door knocking, I'm forced to do the cold calling. So what's your answer to that person who she officially put their hand down and doesn't even know where to begin on that purpose? I would be like, hey, we talked to someone that sells trash for a living and they're really purpose driven and they don't and they don't love trash. You know, like, you know what's cool about doing a purpose statement exercise and like Garrett, we have like so many examples. There's one in the book but it doesn't matter whichever one you do. Like it's sort of no pun intended serves its purpose. You know, when you get to the point where you have to talk about, you know, like, like how you enjoy expressing what you love doing. Like those words are like serving, teaching, right? Like inspiring. Like they're normally like external facing, right? They're like of service words and goals are normally like very self-serving, right? Like I want to achieve this. So the easy answer to the question is like just ask why, you know, like I wake up in the morning and I got to do these cold calls. Like why am I doing these cold calls? Because I want to make money. Why do I want to make money? Right? Like a third why is not a novel idea, right? You get to the third why and then you're like, oh, this is the reason but it's deeper than that. And I said it earlier, you have to, our students get it. Like when you get in the real world and you had to get your first job or like in entrepreneur, like sometimes what you're good at and what you love doing are not the same thing. And there are things that you're gonna have to do, right? That you don't love doing. But when you're doing what you're good at, if you start looking for things that you love, right? Like you'll start finding them and then it'll start to like skew your career trajectory. And I think that's a larger conversation around like finding purpose in the most mundane of places. Like it starts with like looking for it. Yeah, it reminds me of the story of job satisfaction another guest had shared with us around janitor in a hospital and he had the highest job satisfaction and they asked him, you know, we did the survey of everyone, you scored the highest Y and he's like, well, I help heal patients by keeping the emergency room and the operating room clean the doctors can do what they need to do and the patients can be healed and they can go back to living a great life with their family and it's getting to that third level of why, right? To get to that answer because you look at a janitor and you're like, well, you're mopping the floors, you're moving garbage outside, like how do you find purpose in that? Well, he asked himself that third Y, right? Like, well, why does this trash matter? Why does the floor need to be clean? Why does the hospital need to run on time? Why does the OR need to be moving like clockwork? Because there's families to save, there are people to heal and every role you're in, when you ask that third Y, you can get that level deeper. And that is why we focus on mindset over tactics because that is 100%, it's a beautiful story and that's just mindset. He's probably a phenomenal janitor because he has changed the way that he thinks about what he does and who he does it for. The brain is malleable and that's the best part about it. If you look for the bad, you'll find it. If you look for the good, you'll find it. We have a story about a psychic in our book because it's just a really good representation of it. The psychic tells my boy, yo, three good things are gonna happen to you today. And the guy finds three good things that happened to him. He found something at Chipotle. He found something like for missing a ticket, he found something else. And so then we're like, hey, what do you think would have happened if the psychic told you three bad things were gonna happen to you today? Well, I would have been prepared for the bad things. Yeah, exactly. I would have been prepared for the bad things. They wouldn't have surprised me. It's like that shift, it sounds so trivial but it's the difference between really successful people that stick it out and those that don't. And you're right, you're always right. You will find whatever you're looking for. Well, John and I absolutely love the book. We could go on for hours. I mean, I know we didn't talk about creativity, we didn't talk about some of these other topics we had prepped on. We love asking every guest who stops by what their X factor is. What do you think makes each of you unique and extraordinary? I feel like our audience might know based on the ying and the yang here of how we've heard your responses but would love to hear from you, Colin and Garrett what your X factor is. I will start and I'm gonna answer it as what I believe our X factor is, Colin and me. I think the fact that there are two of us doing this and that we come from completely different places is the X factor. Colin can view a problem or see a problem or see an issue or an opportunity and come at it from a completely different angle than I do. And I'm like blown away by it almost literally daily where we'll be talking about something and I'll just be like, I've never thought about it that way. And I don't wanna speak for him but I would imagine maybe not daily but at least every few days he thinks that about something that I say too. And so I think that that really is our X factor. When we are in front of our classroom or in front of audiences or working with customers somebody can usually see themselves in one or both of us somewhere in between because we do come from such different backgrounds and such different perspectives and have just different personalities. And I think that for me, that is our X factor and I feel really lucky to work with my best friend here and to do the things that we're doing and the things that we plan to do together. Do I really need to go after that? I mean, I was gonna say the last part. I was gonna say it's rare that you get to work with your best friend. I love this dude, you know, our kids hang out and our wives hang out. Like we get to go and travel like around the country and gives keynotes, we don't have to. We get to be on podcasts together. We get to make fun of each other in real life, you know? Like in front of people. And then I think the X factor is that people are like, oh, like they're real, like they're human beings. And that makes it a lot easier to destigmatize a really stigmatized industry, which is sales and even personal development. When you can see just two normal dudes that love each other, aren't afraid to say it, aren't afraid to give each other feedback, aren't afraid to like argue in front of other people for the benefit of other people because we're very confident in our relationship with each other, you know? Like he's not getting away from me, right? I can't run fast enough to get away from him. Like we're stuck with each other and that's how brothers act, you know? So I don't know, I think that that's, I think everybody's got one of those in their lives and then they see us together on stage and they're like, yep, they're not faking that. Yeah, I completely agree. I'm fortunate to have that in Johnny and to be business partners together for as long as we have and friends. It is a really powerful experience and relationship and I'm so glad both of you got to share it with our audience and all these great mindset lessons from top sellers, top performers, admirable people, people who wouldn't even consider themselves salespeople. Where can our audience find out more about the great work you both do? Colin and Garrett.com kind of has a good summary and we are just dipping our toes. I shouldn't say just, it's been a few months now but we're dipping our toes into the social media waters and we are on Twitter and Instagram at Colin and Garrett and trying to really share some. We are lucky enough to talk to amazing people almost every day, people like you and people that we interact with and we're trying to share as many of those lessons in real time as we possibly can. So those are the best places and we love feedback. So if anybody does have any questions after hearing this, find us, reach out and we would be happy to answer them if we can. Yeah, we'll link it up in the show notes. Thank you both. Yeah, we appreciate your guys.