 You're welcome back to the breakfast and plus CV Africa. Our final conversation this morning will be about the constitutional review that's going on right now. The big question is does Nigeria need a new constitution or do we need to simply make amendments you know to the constitution? And joining us to discuss this is a public affairs analyst Mr. Emiri Aguawa. Good morning. Thanks for joining us. Good morning. All right. We also have a guest journalist via phone. Good morning to Benjamin Atebe. Good morning and thanks for joining us. Good morning. All right. Let's begin with you Mr Atebe, a managing partner, a Fidelity law firm. The big question really has been in the first place. Does Nigeria need a constitutional review or do we simply need to walk on all the resolutions and you know that we've had from other conferences like the Confab of 2014? Where do you come in Mr Atebe? Okay, the presence of preaching the constitution that we have for the federal public of Nigeria is that constitution of 1999, which will say it was clashed by the military government. That is not to say whether the constitution is there. It's totally war. The constitution has very, very salient provisions which are improperly implemented. You should take care of a lot of things that we are dictating. Because that constitution from all the dictation is a constitution that is supposed, powers are supposed to be shared by the chief and the federal government. And like I said, there are areas that need to be reviewed so that we can have proof of reality. And there are areas that we can say can be kept. Whether we need to review the constitution is not an issue any longer because going by a lot of agitation by the various sectors of the country, even you as an individual, you don't need to be a lawyer. You know that there are some things, there are some sections of the provisions of that constitution that need to be reviewed in order to meet with the current agitation in Nigeria. So is it to review or totally discard with the 1999 constitution? I am not one of those that would say we should discard with it. Because the truth is that yes, there are some provisions in the 1999 constitution that do not really miss the agitations of everyone. But the major issue is not absent of provisions in the constitution. The major issue is people's inclementation. Okay. In the constitution, we have very good provisions that can take care of a lot of the fields that we are discussing. It's pretty much the same with a lot of the laws that we have governed in Nigeria, criminal justice system. We have challenges with implementing a lot of these things. Let's bring in Dr. Emery Agoumwa. Everyone, I believe, has agreed that there needs to be adjustments with constitution. This money we are talking of either getting a new one or just modifying what we currently have. But there are also people who say that the whole process is a charade and it's a waste of time and there is no sincerity with it. Do you agree that with those people who say that this whole process is just a waste of time? Thank you very much. I wouldn't say it's a waste of time. It's a step in the right direction. But I wouldn't also say that we don't have any legitimate grounds to think that the process would be totally... I'll say it's here, okay? Because over time, we didn't have a trust issue in the country as regards matters like this. But the question is, at least we are excited that for the first time, everybody is on the same page that this constitution needs to be reviewed. Now, my thought is, how do we review this? Now, what we call it probably a new one or a review. All I know is that there's nothing actually called new in any place. We're going to take something and review it, add some things to it. So, the question I would have asked is, how do we factor in the real concerns? Okay, we have a lot of power at the center. The constitution seems to give a lot of immunity to people with political office. So, we need to, first of all, itemize the concerns we have and review them tactically. Now, the problem is that for some strange reasons, we do not trust the process. The process, once again, is not very transparent. The process for me is not looking like it's going to capture all the concerns of the people and also of the citizenry. Now, are we going to do something that we will now take out on how to do that we have done a constitutional review and still did not address the problems at hand. Okay, so we have the issue of trust. We have the issue of proper sense. So, now the truth of the matter is that more than 60% of the country do not know that this is going on. Okay, so, why are we pushing this? Are we sensitizing the citizen of? Should I respect the clusters in world and local government? Okay, getting selected intellectuals and people who have the mind of the country and the national well-being of the country to bring out loopholes and constitutions to enable them to make this constitution that would affect everybody linearly and wholesomely. Okay, so, my thought is that we have, for now, the government has not shown us that we can trust the process. But also, even though they have not shown us that we can trust the process, we should come out completely as... Hello? Yes, can you hear me? Ro, are you referring to me? Yes, yes, you. So, we know that regarding this constitutional review, there are lots of sub-factors here. Women are demanding more representation. Northern states say they want to create, Northern leaders say they want to create more states. There's issue of devolution of powers, creation of state police, truth, federalism. There's just so much talks as to what we need to change or amend in the constitution. Where do you think the key focus should be on right now, where you think all powers involved should be able to reach a conclusion? Would you say one of these would be devolution of past the states and ensuring truth, federalism for the country? Okay, yes, I am for truth, federalism for the country. The Nigerian president, like I said, so in the last 10, do not represent truth, federalism, but it is something that can be reviewed. They want to talk of state creation because we are referring to state creation. I do not concede to the idea of creating more states. Even at Nigeria, we have too many states. That is the truth. Because when you have too many states, you waste your resources. And that is why we are wasting your resources here and there. Nigeria does not even need to exist. And there you should be having trust in that is the truth. Then talking of some other areas where maybe women right, if I get it very well, should be taken into consideration. A review would be able to take care of those ifs and ifs. I mean, let's say America today has had one constitution for over 100 years. And that's why I say that the challenge is implementation of the provisions of our constitution is not we can continue changing our constitution every day. But if we do not have the capacity to implement the provisions of that constitution, we will still come back to square zero. That is my position. So what we just need to do is to review the country because of the constitution. And I believe it will be able to meet the needs of everybody in agitation. All right, Dr. Argon, are you still with us? Yes, I'm sorry. Technology failed me. Yeah, all right. So I want you to continue with where you're aware about showing sincerity of purpose. And then there's people who've also said that a review of the constitution will end the agitations currently across the country where there's people who want to secede and have their own country in the southeast, in the southwest. And I think some part of the middle belt. So do you agree that it will be the answer to answer to ending these secessionist agitations? And also continue with your thoughts on sincerity of purpose? Okay, thank you very much. So let me answer the first question you put out. I do not think it's going to end the agitation. Okay, I don't think so. The consents for agitations are quite legitimate. Okay, but I don't think it's going to change it. Let me tell you something. What we are dealing with is the fact that we have lost a sense of humanity in how we approach this in this country. The best a constitution can do is to guide the framework of expectations and also operations of the system and put them on the truth of the matter is we have not come to see ourselves as one and no constitution can make us be one. Okay, the best we can, the best the best constitution can do is to reduce the power at the center so that even though we still don't want to be one, we can be in control of our operations probably as a state or a region by ourselves and not be totally dependent on the center, which for some reasons the center has a lot of vested interest by a particular tribe. Okay, so I think probably most of you are going to put it at bay or just a little bit tactically because I'm foreseeing a lot of issues that might not be captured on that. We are not a country that factors in competence when we are doing what we're doing. So constitution cannot factor in competence for you. Okay, what's going to factor in competence in putting in the right persons or looking for inclusion is basically our cognitive intellectual capacity which for some reasons the people at the helm of our heads do not have at the moment. Okay, so I think what constitution is going to do is to find structures to force individual ideologies to ensure that we do not put pressure on the delicate points of the constitution. Okay, which I think for some strange reasons that we have gone beyond this kind of conversation we should have been going towards progressive conversations as a country. On my thought on transparency, we are looking at the system. The government has not shown us to today, both this present administration and the former administration, that all the other decisions we have that they can be trusted. And I can put it back to the conversation and look a lot more open as regards the confound. Confound look a lot more open but the truth is that we've had a lot of trust in the confound that's going to change a lot of things but it wasn't implemented. Okay, now whether we trust the process that brought out the thoughts and the ideologies is one, we trust the process that will implement it. So we can, now the two sides of the process we do not trust completely. Okay, the first set is that how do we, how are we sure that what's going to come out from there, what will work. Now let's assume that's that's what we want. What's the guarantee? This government has not proven over time that this stuff we are bringing out, okay, like the, like, the barista said, we have not shown enough political will and framework for implementation. Okay, and if we don't have that too, we can't trust the process. Anybody can draft out something but it's not implemented. That does not affect me. It becomes a beautiful document on the shelf that does not add value to the government. So the process but in directing quality of itemizing the ideologies we want, we do not trust implementing the ideologies also we do not trust the process but wait. Okay. All right. Mr. Benjamin, do we still have you? Mr. Benjamin? Yes, I'm with you. Yes. So I want to ask you about this other, you know, points of concern that other groups have raised. They're saying that Nigerians need to, you know, hold a referendum and that the constitution needs to provide, you know, for the holding of referendums in the country. Do you think that's advisable? Some groups, including the National Consultative Front, NCF, are saying that it's important for Nigerians to be able to hold referendums and for that provision to be in the Nigerian constitution. So do you agree with that? Yes, yes. Yes, I think it's, I agree with it that there need to be a provisional referendum in the constitution. Like I said initially, but I think during my first question, I said this present constitution that we've had is a making of the past Nigerian military government. So in a larger sense, the people do not make, we're not, don't say they're not in drafting this constitution. So I think that with the various positions being interest here and there, I believe that that is now the contribution of the population. And we should be taking into consideration if we have to review. So we need to have a referendum, a provision for a referendum in the constitution that will help people to determine, yes, if whether I still want to be part of Nigeria or whatever, and we'll be able to discuss it reasonably so that without a quantity of bloodshed and everything, it would be a very, very good provision. I agree with it. Okay, bring it in, Mr. Agungawa on this same topic. How about people who say this might embodying secessionists who are clamoring for their own country? I mean, if they can all come together and you know, and reach a vote. Sorry, can you get to it? I said this call for a referendum in the Nigerian constitution. How do you think this would affect the secessionist calls in the country? The truth of the matter is that you can't have a building without having an exit, yeah? And whether we want to use it or not is totally the choice of the people inside the building. The structure of the constitution must factor in, because we are independent from a base. Okay, a group of persons don't want to be together anymore. And if they make a valid face and they have every right to vote, we saw that happen in Brazil, okay? We saw things that happen in the U.S.S. are we have a lot of countries come up, even in the Sudan. It's also broken up. People must have the right. Okay, now what we have not gotten is the reason to be together. Okay, and that's one of the things I think should be factored in the conversation that we have. Because looking at, if we give somebody a good reason not to stay together, then you must give them a door to leave. Okay, it becomes imprisonment when you don't give them a reason to stay together and also shut the back door so that they can leave. That becomes imprisonment. That also removes people's freedom. Okay, so I think the conversation really is fine inclusion. Things that will make us be together. As a matter of fact, one of our strengths as a country is our numbers. If we start breaking up, I tell you the truth, we will not be a great country no more. Okay, because by the time we break up to 40 different units, I mean, we struggle. Okay, we must understand what we are together. But one of these, I must say that the constitution must be optioned for that kind of referendum. What it means is that a certain set of persons can wake up and have an intelligence case and make a case why they don't want this happening in Spain right now. Okay, between the Spanish government and the Catalonia government. This happened. People are saying we contribute over 70% to 80% of the resources of this country. And then we don't think we are treated fairly as a group. Then if you don't want to give us inclusion like we want, we go and we won't have to be an internet country. Now they are making votes. Okay, they've tried their own although it's not successful yet. But at least in Nigeria that conversation must happen. And because whenever I talk about breaking out, somebody thinks that it's a particular tribe, probably the eastern part of Nigeria that wants to go out, who said that tomorrow the North Anas will not say that they are not treated fairly, who wants our own expression. They want to give them the right of expression. Okay, it's not basically because what we think we're fighting this, we think we are doing this for a particular set of persons. Remember, the door you are locking out for some, you are locking for someone can also be your own exit route. Okay, and that's one of these we must understand. We are a country of 500 different languages and different set of persons and have different culture, different identities. And at times we think it's not necessary for the whole inclusion thing that people must make an estimate case. We have predominant Christians in the South and predominant Muslims in the North. Okay, now people are making cases. Why should we shut them? Why should you subject a North Anas to Christian holidays when their system is not predominantly that. So now we have a lot of systems going on, but people have every right to be who they want to be and have exit routes to have that conversation. I think that's one of the things we must consider. So when you have an opinion and you think as a group, a cluster and make your case, you can push it up, but much more must have a reason why we want to be together, not a reason why we need to use the exit routes. Dr. Maria Agoumoua, Public Affairs Analyst, thank you very much for your time this morning and for sharing your thoughts with us. And Ben Jamil Attebe, your legal practitioner, thank you also for your time and for speaking with us. All right, this is where we of course say goodbye for the breakfast here on Plus TV Africa for this week. The final week, isn't it? Yeah, actually, the final week in May. So we're going to be back here again next month, on Monday morning. Thank you very much for staying with us. If you missed out on any of our conversations all through the month, remember to join us on our social media platforms, YouTube, Twitter, Instagram and Facebook. It is simply at Plus TV Africa. I am Osao Gio Bon. And I am Annetta Felix. Have a great day.