 Good evening everyone, thank you for joining us. Good evening, so welcome to Reimagine Theater, a panel series that brings together artists and community leaders to envision a new theatrical world. I'm joined here with my co-host, co-facilitator for Naomi Renville, who I'll pass it along to in just a moment. My name is Nebra Nelson, I'm the Director of Arts Engagement at Seattle Rep. I'll give a brief physical description of myself for blind and low vision audience members. I'm a lighter-skinned woman with short brown hair. I'm wearing a Nubian necklace and a brown jacket and behind me are black and white photos on a white wall. I would like to acknowledge that we're on the traditional land of the Coast Salish people, including the Duwamish people past and present, many other tribes, local to and not local to the Seattle area. We honor with gratitude the land itself and the Duwamish tribe. Of course this acknowledgement does not take place of long-term authentic relationships with indigenous communities, but it's really a first step in honoring the land we're on. And so make sure to support the individuals in this call and their organizations. And if you want to know more resources on how to support other local businesses, native businesses and organizations and artists, you can check out our land acknowledgement page on the Seattle Rep website. I want to send some real deep appreciation for all of these panelists being here to have this conversation, especially during Native American Heritage Month. We're doing all these panels so that we can envision what a future of equity and justice looks like and how the arts and theater should be part of that and be a consistent part of community voice. So the leading questions for this discussion are, if you could wave a magic wand and build a new theater landscape, what would you create? What does theater at the heart of public life look like? And what does tribal sovereignty look like and how does it inform your theater practice? So now I'm gonna pass it to my amazing co-faciliterated for this panel and the rest of the panelists to introduce themselves. Fern, would you like to introduce yourself? How mi tak yapi, greetings relatives. My name is Fern Naomi Renville. I'm an enrolled citizen of the Sistin Wapten Oyate. That's an Eastern Dakota band. We have a treaty with U.S. federal government by which we are known as the Great Sioux Nation. I am a storyteller, a theater artist and an educator. And I am so happy to be here having this discussion. From the Lake Traverse Reservation in South Dakota, I did not grow up attending theater or even really being aware that such a thing as theater existed. And yet I come from a powerful theatrical oral presenting tradition. My Dakota people have for thousands of years on this continent had a very meaningful and significant theatrical tradition. And so as a Dakota theater artist, my goal is to have Dakota theater recognized as theater, to have American Indian theater recognized as not just part of the American theatrical canon, but a foundational influence on said theater field. Okay, and now I would like to, can I turn this over to, I see Neema to my right. You wanna introduce yourself, Neema. Hi everyone, my name is Neema Kovale. I am from the Blackfeet Nation. I have, my hair has died. So I have some dark brown hair, some light brown hair. And I'm wearing a black sweatshirt and I have some paintings and books that are behind me on the shelf. I am also a first generation college student. I'm currently a senior at Pitzer College. I would say that I am a theater artist, activist and student right now. I was fortunate enough to be able to be taught by Roger Fernandez and Fern who are in this panel as well. So I really grew up with stories and combining theater with indigenous storytelling, which is theater itself, but on the stage and educating the community about social justice issues and teaching them through traditional storytelling. And I carry that with me every day and I really try and look at how storytelling and social justice connect. And my goal is to have that acknowledgement of indigenous ways of knowing and how they are used every day in our culture. Thank you. Roger, you wanna introduce yourself? Roger, you're muted. You don't think we can hear you. There we go. There we go. I am Roger Fernandez. I'm from the Lower Elwa, Nexclayam people known as the Clallum people. We are the strong people. I'm an artist, an educator and a storyteller. I've recently done a little more focused work in theater, trying to translate our traditional stories into a way that is accessible, another avenue of access to our stories. And so to me, it's imperative that we keep our stories alive. As our ancestors kept it alive for us, we must do it as well. And so we have many vehicles to do that through literature, through film, through theater. And I think we need to always explore those things. And so as Fern said, theater is something that our people have practiced, sharing art and spirit and ceremony in a public way that everyone can participate, everyone can witness. And so very powerful messaging is going on in those kind of public performances which I think is akin to theater. So I'm here as someone who's learning, so I really know I'm going to gain a lot from hearing from the other speakers. And I look forward to sharing whatever I can as an artist and a storyteller and educator. So thank you. Darryl would, oh, Fern, you're muted as well. We'll get back in the groove of things. Now it's Siem, Nostalgia Siem, Sat Symptoms on the spot. Darryl Holare Lummi. And I'm quite honored and quite humbled to be here amongst all these really cool people that do storytelling and bring our stories to the different communities to share in our history and our culture and our family and our traditions. And I think about that and I think about what makes us so, and I think Fern touches on it in that as the people were taught to speak from the heart and that's kind of like an inherent practice that we all carry that gift that's always been the practice of our people to speak from the heart and to come from the heart, to listen with your heart. And the work that we do here at Children of the Setting is following those rules and those protocols, the sharing from the heart, the ability to give more than to receive and give thanks for everything that informs all of our work. And I'm just so happy to be here. And I have to let you know that I have a family matter at six o'clock too, so I might have to duck out if I can't delay it anymore, but I'm really happy to be here. I'm really happy you're here, Darryl. Thank you so much for joining us. You've been a huge inspiration of mine over the years, so thank you. Howie, would you like to introduce yourself? Sure, what's up Fern? Hello. Hi, hi Roger and everybody else on the panel, Nima and Darryl, I don't know if I met you in person, but what's up y'all? Nohidataka, tatasatakatsudewaki, hey, my name's Howie. I am ostensibly a comedian and I guess a theater artist, I consider myself a theater artist in the same way that I consider myself a comedian with thinly veiled rage. I just like doing stuff and I've been able to be lucky enough to do it in the city. I do things with this thing called indigenized productions in which Roger was in one of our shows back in the day, the show called You Don't Have to Go Home, but you can't stay here. I just like doing cool shit with cool natives and I'm glad to be here. Thank you. How about we start with that last question that was proposed by Nabra and then we kind of go, we'll work our way towards what do we see, what do we wanna see in our future, our theatrical future as American Indian people? So that first question though, which is what can American theater do to support tribal sovereignty and is there a connection? So let's just, well, each can go around and answer that, take a turn answering that. And Neema, do you wanna go start again? No. Do you want me to start? Yeah, I need to collect my thoughts as we were having a good conversation before, so I need to... Well, Nabra and myself had a conversation previously as we were conceiving of this idea about what exactly that would look like. And that first point that we brought up, which is who defines theater? Does the non-native theater institution define theater or do tribal entities on this continent get to say, this is theater, we do theater? That's tribal sovereignty because sovereignty means self-determination. So that's a part of it is engaging respectfully around recognition of native artists as part of the theatrical field. But for me, my main focus, because I'm a director and because I have been working in more than one region of the United States, I've worked in the Twin Cities, the West Coast and New York City. And in all three places, there is an issue that is unsettling and problematic that has to do with identity and representation and identity fraud. American media is a long story of not allowing American Indian people to self-represent as ourselves. And we are still very much in a place where we are not allowing American Indian tribal people on this continent to be the self-determined arbiters of our own identity, to say, I as a Dakota person, my Dakota people, we say who we are. We say who our members are. I'm not Dakota unless my people claim me. That's the only reason I'm Dakota. I can't be Dakota by myself. Tribal cultures rely on self-determination around identity. I have seen how when non-Indian actors receive opportunities of playing Indian roles, that there is, there's harm to tribal sovereignty as a whole because it really goes to that issue of self-representation. And who gets to define who Indians are? Is it like Donald Trump says, well, you don't look Indian. So he gets to define that or do tribal people get to define that? So casting decisions and consultation decisions, who you cast and the material that you help yourself to and how you consult with tribes, as mentioned in legal treaties. So those are real ways with nuts and bolts impacts. One recent thing that Roger and I just got to participate in last weekend was the very first ever. And it was something that myself and a number of artists have talked about for a long time. A peer trauma support group for survivors of ethnic identity fraud, those of us who work in the media field and are kind of, you could say overexposed to ethnic identity fraud, and for whom it becomes, it's a political and professional landmine that must be navigated. You can't ignore it. It will only come back and bite you in the ass. So we had last weekend, a first ever peer trauma support group for survivors of people. And it was mostly theater people as it turned out, but it is a real phenomenon, a real issue and a real threat to mental health. And it's also painful. And because pain causes us to change our behaviors and seek solutions, I'm focusing on how it is literally motivating a group of native theater artists to come together and strategize in a way that we never have before as a way of moving past this trauma and a way of turning to one another. I'm gonna quit talking now and turn this over to someone else. Roger, would you like to talk? But so I do that to my class all the time. I'm gonna mute myself, okay? Okay, we're in the same room. So we echo if we don't juggle the muting part. Looking at so much of what native people, not just in theater, but across the American board, we have to legitimize ourself to a power structure that sees themselves in the final determiner that this is art, this is theater, we are the ones who make that decision. That's my sense of everything. And so the idea of how can an existing medium in Western culture account or accommodate native people, part of it is to recognize the history behind all of this. And I know that having seen for and worked a lot to find out there's a very powerful native theater history in this country in America and that again, it's never acknowledged and that it had profound impact on the theater world of the time and that led to where we are now. So again, looking kind of like the real roots of things and being aware that instead of, I guess I'm gonna switch kind of into another gear which is the idea that in the stories, whenever someone has a big problem, they can't solve it. They go to the elders usually, they talk to the elders about the problem because the elders have wisdom, they have knowledge and that oftentimes they will find the answer from the voices and spirit of the elders. And so when I look at something like this, a young culture like America and an aspect of young culture of America theater, understanding there's a problem here and then we can't solve it. We should go to the elder culture and ask some questions of them and that oftentimes native people are kind of patiently waiting, when are you gonna ask? I mean, if you build dams across rivers, we might be able to tell you some of the things are gonna happen. You know, wipe out salmon runs, destroy the flow of the river and the temperatures of the river, just all kinds of terrible things can happen but nobody tends to ask us in a sincere way and nobody seems to follow some of the advice that we try to give them. And so as someone who's relatively new to that theater, is theater able to, the theater world, however that's gonna be defined, I understand it's a culture of its own and it has a lot of diversity in it. How will they ask for advice from native people? And this sounds like a step in that direction. This panel sounds like a step in that direction but how again, the frustrating part is when native people put forward ideas and thoughts and philosophies and nothing happens of it. It's just a nice opportunity to hear the native people say a few things and we're gonna keep going the way we're going. And we might add a few native things to it but substantial changes take place. So I just did a weird meandering kind of a response there. I apologize for that. We've been talking all day on Zoom. But the idea of native people have a history of theater. It still exists today. We have things that we can offer and share. There's all kinds of red lights and yellow lights that come up for me. It's like the appropriation issue. So how do we get that conversation going and how do native people find a way to navigate that world where we really, at this point don't have the power to change some of the major theater institutions but we have an opportunity to create our own. I know that Daryl's up in Lummi, I've seen a couple of the plays they put on. It's almost like the community said, well, we'll do it ourselves. And that's one response I think can the big theater companies say, well, we wanna support that. So let us help you do that. I don't know the history of all that but I do know that I've seen the plays put on up in Lummi and I've seen how we pull things together. Seems like on a very tight shoestring there but still it's we'll do it ourselves. So in the sake of diplomacy and trying to make change the world for the better of our young people, I have two granddaughters that one done a grandson. They wanna get into theater and performing. How can I have an influence to change that world? And again, I'm anxious to hear what other people have to say but it always to me falls into that line of, there's a line by a group called, there's a title of a great title of an album by a group called Megadeth and it says peace sells but who's buying? And so for me, it's like, yeah, we can say a lot of nice things at diversity cells, multicultural sales support but who's really committed to it. So that commitment I think has to start with maybe some initiative like this where we find allies and build on that. So anyway, thank you. Thank you. I'm gonna just intervene and say that there are people helping us right now tomorrow sound theater is releasing an audio drama that was a musical that Roger and I wrote and they were going to stage it this spring but because of the pandemic, we have adapted it as a podcast or an audio drama or radio play or whatever you wanna call it. And that is a real thing. There are real people there and I would have to say, I'm gonna push back against that we don't have power. I absolutely disagree. I believe we have power. In fact, I believe we have way more power than we believe because we are storytellers and artists who have the power to change people's hearts and minds. That is the power that is needed right now. So I totally hear your frustration, believe me. Rogers had to listen to me tearing my hair out over all of these struggles in theater. So he knows the wear and tear it puts on a person to show up every day in a space that erases you. But this conversation, I don't think we need to ask how or why it's happening because we're talking right now because that's what Indian people do we talk. So awesome. Well, I wanna share a quick story then because I'm not saying we don't have power and there's a story that includes my people. It's a historical passage of a British ship that came into Puget Sound to trade with the native people. And when the native people realized that they were being taken advantage of, the trades were not fair. They captured a British sealer and held him hostage till this is Indian way of doing some things. And so the British response was to fire their cannons on the native village and destroy it. One of our Clowland villages. And so the native people had to flee into the woods and watch their village be destroyed by cannon fire. And they were asked later, what did they think of that display of power? And the native people response was, that was an impressive display of power there, but we have power too. And so our measure of power, I think, is something that is another conversation, but we do have power. So I wasn't saying we don't have power. I think we're coming up against another power that holds itself to be very powerful with their technology. So I know we have power and we will exercise that power. Absolutely, absolutely. And the reason we have that power is because the storytellers like yourself, the Indian people who dance and sing and speak and teach keep sharing the oral culture, the theatrical culture. Darryl, would you like to talk? Sure. Great conversation and I was actually waiting for one of Roger's stories. I love his stories, but you know, received some instructions probably 30 years ago from a fellow by the name of Robert George, who was the eldest son of Chief Dan George. And when I met Robert, he was an elder by then, since past, he said, you know, Darryl, we need to get 100 drums together. We need to get 100 drums together and let the people know that we're still here. And when we get them together and we teach them about our life way and share our stories, what we're really doing to share in our way of life, which in our language is called chilangan, which is a translation of sovereignty, because it's who we are. And he said that's really needed to be done at this moment. You know, and we're still in that moment because in his analogy, the people that came over here over five or six hundred years ago, they were drunken sailors and they're still drunk. And we need to sober them up to let them see this world that they've come to live in. And the story is that this world has to tell them, you know, and it's people like Roger who take the listens to the animals and listens to the wind and translate that into a human way of understanding the world. But that's where the stories come from. And he was really encouraging me to do this work all those years ago. And it only took me like 25 years to understand what he was saying to me, but I finally got it. You know, but that sovereignty is just the act of, you know, and these things that are being talked about or demonstration of that. It's really just about how much we want to share, you know. And I think having these conversations will indicate to me, you know, for me what that is that I can bring to the world and share with the people. So thank you. Thank you, Daryl. You know, I'm really struck listening to all of everyone. How theater is a political thing for Indians. We're like Belarusians. Are you familiar with Belarus Free Theater? Indian Theater is political theater. And in fact, the history of the diplomacy between the federal government and American Indians is filled with theatrical performance. But Howie, would you like to continue that conversation? Or no, Nima wants to say something. Yes, all righty. All right, just quickly, going off of that, I always, you know, if I'm thinking about how to intersect American Indian Theater and ways of knowing into white theater, I guess mainstream white theater and ways of knowing Western ways of knowing. I always think about though, some of the work I've done at my school pits or college, there's, it's part of a contours of some five colleges, right? And there's about five native students out of the thousands and thousands of students that are there, but together we came together and thought that it was important for our school to acknowledge the land that they occupy, as well as having some sort of connection with the surrounding tribe that's there. So there can be an acknowledgement, but also allowing them to come in and tell their stories. And so we actually not only held a powwow, but have held panels like this. Our college occupies the Tongva land in Claremont, California. And we actually have tribal members come and share their stories and traditional stories and storytelling. No one really likes, not everyone likes to learn, but everyone loves a good story and a performance. And through those stories, these people are actually learning about colonization or they're learning about the roots of something like theater and where it's come from and where these stories are coming from and how they're passed on. And I think that that's one of the couple of ways to start this intersectionality is through storytelling and educating through that way. And you all are already starting that and doing a great job of that, but I just really want to echo that. Awesome. You remind me, Nima, that Western theater is built on the Greek mythological tradition. So in fact, Indigenous story is the basis of Western theater as well. Theater is ceremony. People who are real theater nerds know that. You were also saying, it reminded me, this is sitting bull. You guys are familiar with sitting bull, yeah. It was Lakota, a holy man. Also became known as a performer in Buffalo Bill's Wild West show. Well, guess what? Did you know that before Buffalo Bill had his Wild West show, sitting bull had his own Wild West show and it traveled to Europe and around the United States to sold out audiences because sitting bull said that the ideal way to teach non-Indians about Indians was through theater since he saw it as a place where we came together that we had a shared theatrical tradition for learning. So it was Buffalo Bill who co-opted that idea. And of course, sitting bull ended up being a performer in his show. But most people don't know that. And most people don't know that sitting bull traveled around with a whole troupe of Lakota theater artists that he kept employed. So this idea that we have shaped, we have helped to shape the American theater, literally the shape it takes right now. There are scholars who point to Buffalo Bill's Wild West show as a formative influence on how Americans present and take in performance. That's an Indian show that was started by Buffalo Bill. So we literally are raced from all of these places and that's why theater is political for us. Howie, will you talk to us? Sure. So again, the question is can the mainstream like theatrical establishment contribute to sovereignty, right? Okay. I appreciate everything that everybody said. It's nice to hear you guys. Yeah, no, I don't think that they will I guess is my answer. Can they? Yeah, it's super simple. It's like with all of these things. It's actually very easy. Just give the land back or start. If you're white and you're in the position of power, quit and wait until somebody who's browner than you occupies that space and then let them give the land back and let the tribes do with it what they will give it to black folks and do the same thing. And that's, it's pretty easy. Will they do it? I sincerely doubt it. Otherwise we wouldn't be in this mess. They've had a long time to change their ways. Yeah, I don't know. I think that the discussion is so interesting but I guess my art, yuck. My art is, I just, I don't care the way that white people consume it. I just, they're gonna do what they're gonna do. I like probably everybody on this panel has spent time trying to educate the whites and boy, learning. I don't know if it's one of their top five traits. Murder, certainly. But learning, I don't know. And yeah, I think, yeah, I've spent, I'm glad that my comedy persona or whatever it is is kind of a defiance of that. But also I would rather just perform to POC and black and native spaces only if I had the choice because that's just, it just sounds better. And typically I get to do things that are a little bit more vulnerable and a little bit more authentic. And so, I mean, I will say the Annex Theater which supported my shows in the beginning paid me to be there, which was great paid indigenous productions to be there. Is that enough? Absolutely not. Because I still made them money, you know? And it's just the one show. The sovereignty is about native people being able to do what we say we should do in our own ways, right? And like Fern was saying in the beginning. And it should be that simple. It shouldn't require anybody else's support or whatever. It should just be us saying what we're doing for us. And to be honest, the kind of media that I like to consume now is that authentic version. I mean, obviously everybody loves to see your favorite Native American actor, Johnny Depp, probably. You know, sail through the air in a high budget Hollywood film. But the things that truly touched me and the things that really moved me are when I get to see native people or black people or people of color, queer people, trans people, making things outside of the gaze of trying to teach somebody else something that's specifically white people. Because there is this like level of trying to teach children how to operate something they've never operated before. And I actually was thinking about, far be it for me to like disagree with Sitting Bull or all these great leaders, even though he was a traditional enemy of the Pawnee, I'm just saying Fern, you know, I know that it's 2020, but come on. But you know, I'm looking at my bookshelf and I have like Queen Lillio Calani's memoir up there. I have Blackhawk's, his memoir. And these guys all, when they surrendered or they, whatever they did, Lillio Calani did not surrender, she was forced. But whenever they did what, or a ceased war, they all kind of said the same thing. Like we have to teach, but I don't think that they, if they had known that the genocide would continue and that we would end up in a place like this where we were in the state that we're in today, I don't know that they would have said that same thing. I think they might have taken another plan because I know just as you all know that sitting bull wasn't, if he wanted to win, you know, could have won. And just like Roger said, like the British will come up with, that's the thing, the difference between the warfare was so wild that they would be willing to demolish a whole village just to make a point, you know. And I think that we were not aware of what that is. So it's a long, I did the same thing Roger did. Can they contribute? Yes, will they? I doubt it. Thank you for sharing that. I am really feeling, I'm feeling those road miles on us as theater artists, that feeling of always fighting exclusion. I can hear it in everyone's voices here. And I can hear the trauma because Native people, we carry so much trauma. Genocide is traumatic. That it does make me think about how we use theater to heal trauma and how this is our healing. And then everyone here has also mentioned kind of not being a separatist exactly, but if you can't find a non-native theater company to produce your work and support you, we produce our own work. We make our own things happen. You know, I was thinking of Bruce Miller and Monica Charles who are both two local, they're both passed on, but they're both tribal people who wrote plays that were produced in New York City and to critical acclaim. Both of them abandoned their theater careers in New York City because they couldn't take that endless struggle to kick down doors and be included. And I do think that that is a real issue in theater, just the exhaustion and trauma and this feeling like we need to make a safe space for ourselves then that's native lead because the non-native theater world isn't quite making the space for us that needs to happen. So I do believe we have the power to make that space for ourselves and that the non-native theater world will eventually discover how bad-ass it all is, but I hear your trauma and your tiredness, everyone. But I'm curious, Daryl, would you like to talk about your practice as a healing for this trauma? So if we're looking at our future and what we imagine, what do you wish? Like, don't worry about whether it's possible. What do you wish for the future of American Indian theater? The theater, the stories that have yet to be told in regards to trauma, the stories that have yet to be told in terms of, in those stories are instructions to us as native people, and bring it alive through theater. I've been mentored by an elder who said, yeah, you need to do that because we need to draw a picture for our own self, to come back into our true selves, if you will. And it's okay to push ourselves to that line. We all know what that line is. Where there's certain things that are just sacred that are just for us. And then there's things that we can bring us to that place so that people can understand that we have this connection with spirit that comes from this place that we live in that is not realized by people on the outside, but they need to know that that's where the instructions lie so that we can start this narrative around making change against this craziness that we've been living amongst for the last five or 600 years. And that becomes a responsibility at some point. Yes, you remind me of something that was said to me recently by Rihanna Yazzie of New Native Theater in a conversation around a lot of these issues. She said that when Europeans came to this continent and engaged with American Indian peoples, our focus was on relationality. We dealt with these new arrivals on a person to person level which unfortunately allowed them to take advantage of us. But that relationality, that absolute insistence that to be Indian is to feel connected to other Indians and other people. That's theater. We're all in theater because we love that feeling of being connected and sharing a story and a sense of purpose. So that's a very Indian sensibility that is also it's an advantage on stage when you're working in ensemble. If you're used to thinking collectively as a team, that's an advantage, it's a huge advantage. Roger, you look like you're thinking about something you wanna share? I think that my experience with Fern has helped me broaden my appreciation for theater. I was TV and movie growing up as a kid and then became a professional artist and then storyteller. So I think I feel that what I know about theater is probably stereotypical thing you see in Hollywood or on television that this is theater and a lot of backbiting and backstabbing and power plays and those kinds of things. And a couple of movies like Birdman or whatever that kind of perpetuate that idea of this is what theater is. But in hearing Fern's story about her experience in New York, she was adamant that I'm gonna make this a native experience. It's not gonna be a regular how they direct things. And one of the things that struck me was her approach to hearing the stories of the artists that are there not just seeing them as little toy soldiers she's putting out in the battlefield here. But actually, who are you? Tell me about your culture, share your culture. How is that you're gonna play into your role here? Just a real sensitivity to the actors because there would be an equality. There's no big boss. There's gonna be an equality of all of us here. And her sharing that a lot of them were shocked because that's not how theater works. We are subject to the producers, to the directors, to investors, all these things. And so we just kind of take orders. And to indigenize that would be to, in my opinion, follow a native model of that flattening of that social disconnect, that one person, no matter how small the role, has an important voice as someone else in the play. Not to just say that, because that's easy to say, but actually model it and live it. So, and I'm thinking, listener, tell those stories about what was happening in New York and her just drive to make sure that she was in indigenous play and recognizing that she has a chance to change theater. If you're coming in with the tribal sensitivity, a sensibility into a place that doesn't exude any of that and you get producers and actors and all the people that are working on the play recognizing, wait a minute, this is very different. And everybody, and again, I'm interpreting for him, but I believe it, that everyone seemed to be happier than they had been in other productions because they would be treating like, I'm gonna say like humans, instead of just like parts of the machine that are replaceable. You're replaceable. I can get rid of you and get another person versus you have talent and ability and you can do this and how can we help make this happen? So, I just listening to her story of that, it was like, well, now we have an indigenous person and indigenous director coming in with indigenous perspective on how people live in the world in a good way and applying it to a theater experience. So, sometimes it's subtle, it's small like that. It doesn't have to be a multimillion dollar investment in a huge Broadway play. It can be something as simple as, I'm gonna treat my cast, the people I'm working with, like human beings, and we will find a way to make a beautiful piece of work together. I think that, oh, I'm sorry. I was gonna say that. I was going to say that in all of this talk, couple of things strike me. First, when did the war end? People say, well, you signed treaties. Come on, you signed treaties. Yeah, but those were broken like within a week or a year. They were broken. So that means technically, legally they were invalid. But Supreme Court decisions came and said, we have to keep it going. And so for me then, the idea of that true relationship between our nations at various levels, I think we still have a lot of struggle going on for our people and many people I know are still maintaining that struggle. We will continue that struggle. So for me as a storyteller, the story leads you to bigger issues. And when you discuss and talk about the bigger issues, there are bigger issues. And then there are bigger issues. There's a story of Raven, excuse me, Poojay flying to the sky while coming to one biggest tree he ever saw by the time he gets to the top of there's a bigger tree. And then he goes to another through that tree and he comes to an even bigger tree. So I take that idea that, yeah, I think that we still have multiple things to look at. And one is bigger issues, but maybe through the act of creating a native theater that is true to native principles. We can take some big steps there. So that's what I'm saying. Think what you're talking about is once again, recognizing that native experience, native cultural experience in some respects is equivalent to a theatrical training. So for instance, does a native competition dancer who's in top form and spends all his time dancing and he travels and speaks publicly and speaks his language and sings? Is that a person with theatrical training? Yes, it is. And I'm guessing that the theatrical training that he received from his elders was on par with what you might get at Juilliard because you will learn focus. You will learn discipline. You will learn how to tell a story in a powerful way. That's what native performance does. Nima, Nima is a not unusual Indian kid, I know you're not a kid anymore, whose parents expected her to know how to stand up and speak in public because that is a basic skill in an oral culture. It's also listening and speaking. Teachers everywhere say that is the top skill one needs to learn. It's a tremendous advantage. So Indian people are so well situated by our theatrical traditions, by our oral culture to really participate fully in a greater way in the American theatrical field and I don't even know what you call it anymore, but this idea of what would it look like to literally, what if non-native theater opened its doors and you could see indigenous theater happening? What would it look like? I mean, that's, I think what's fun to think about because we end up always talking about our trauma as native people and I'm so tired of trauma, I want a chance to think about the powerful, non-traumatized people that we're going to be in our future and how theater will take us there. So I'm curious to hear your ideas about what that would look like. Nima? Well, you had me thinking about the Canadian TV network, the native network that has come out with some really awesome on-screen storytelling productions. That's all on TV, which is kind of a bit more mainstream way to reach out to a lot of other natives and seeing themselves on screen, I think is something that's really important and an example of something that could happen here potentially which I think would be really cool and I think once again is what everyone has said but I'll just reiterate is that no one's doing this so we're doing it. And I also believe in the importance of allyship and so I think trying to gain other POC community members as Howie was talking about and having that allyship among us I think could really help push this movement forward. Thank you for sharing that. Daryl, what do you see happening? What would it look like? Well, I think I'm getting all inspired by all this conversation. I have this vision of doing theater outdoors in nature, touching nature, feeling nature, hearing it and smelling it and bringing ourselves to that place where the, what do you call it? The, we all have these origination stories, you know and really get ourselves connected to especially our young people, you know who are so easily grabbing a hold of technology to get them in those 30 second soundbites. I think, no, let's get ourselves into these spaces that really have something to say to us, you know and then have that sharing within that kind of environment. I think it would be really powerful. Yeah. There are some questions I see now. I love that. We can get to the questions afterwards. I'd love to continue this visioning but yes, I'm on it. Thank you, Nima. Howie? Yeah. Again, thanks to everybody for everything you said and also letting me bat clean up. This is very fun. Yeah, I mean, I think that if I just vision what I would want, it is like just access to all the cool shit that they like the ballet gets at McCall on Seattle, you know or like access, not just access like that's for that stuff to be native owned and for us to be able to produce and do things that we can do. Like I don't want access, I want, I want. So I think just the ability to create things and I think you were all kind of getting at it too like things that have a futuristic sort of bent to them which I guess with native people always often includes like the past as well. And so yeah, just the ability to create things that are again not I guess marked by the knowledge that there's gonna be an audience that will be trying to learn something from this or whatever, just doing it for the sake of doing it. And I love because I realized too more and more I think about like comedy and stuff like that. Like I just want to do silly shit. That means nothing, you know? I don't want to have to have. If another person tells me that they're, you know they're so thankful for the imbued meaning behind my political joke or whatever I'm gonna lose my fucking mind because I don't care. So yeah, I mean yeah, just the ability to create without those borders, without worrying about those things and in room to fuck up, in room to not be so great. And because you know, not because yeah, I mean I think often native people are the best at this kind of stuff and most things and just need the opportunity. But you know, like people need room to grow and people need room to be able to like explore these things and not have to like, you have to be the best or this isn't gonna happen again for 20 years you know, that kind of stuff. So yeah, just these, the control of these things in native hands, in black and POC hands and for people to be able to guide them and vision them themselves. Also, I want to see Daryl Hilaire's outdoor theater thing. That was cool. I never thought that blown my mind. I like that. Yes, that reminds me that John Kaufman. He wrote something. I'm trying to remember where I read it but his vision for a theater in Seattle that a native theater would be an outdoor theater that shared traditional stories and indigenous knowledge. This was like 40 years ago. So it was like so cool, ahead of his time. Yeah, we need to follow his lead, I think that'd be great. Every time I think I've come up with something new somebody else literally was doing the same thing or like said it and I'm like, fuck man, why is everybody think they're so innovative? Which also to me says that that means that they probably also had their own version of a panel like this and in it. So we need to start thinking of different ways of getting there because if somebody, I swear to God if I'm 74 years old and somebody's like emails me one day or sends a hyperlink to my brain is like, wow, your comedy was so innovative. I'm gonna die, I'm gonna die. I loved what you were saying Howie about once again this idea that yes, we have a lot of trauma but that we can make our own theater that doesn't have to be about educating people about our trauma. It can literally be something to experience joy and connection for ourselves. I mean, where's the native Seinfeld? Not that I like that show. What the hell is Seinfeld about? I would love to see a show. If there's somebody out there that would like to pay me money to do this, I wanna make a show about me just being a bad person. I would love to be a show where I'm a bad arrogant native person and nobody talks about it. Like an itomi soap opera. Yeah, exactly. I just wanna be a piece of shit and I don't wanna have to think about what that will mean for the rest of the culture. So you're speaking to native making free of cliches and stereotypes too that native making doesn't have to comply with that it's this sacred thing or that it can be profane that it can be humorous that it can be ridiculous that it doesn't have to be sacred and shamanic and whatever. Well, you all know tricks or stories just as well as I do more than I do. If you're telling me that they weren't laughing at these ridiculous things that the tricks or stories were about, come on. Oh yeah, oh for reals. So in fact, the Dakota theatrical tradition this time of year in my homelands the winter lodges would be convening these would be the winter camps and each winter lodge would lure a storyteller. They would say, oh, come to our lodge you can sit right by the fire and have the best meat and food and we'll take such good care of you because everyone wanted a storyteller for the winter to get them through the long winter. Now when those storytellers who were elders would come and share the stories all the people knew the words and there were literally like lines for the audience to say back. So it was very interactive and these were established lines that were passed down. So it was very much like the group theatrical tradition. That's like Rocky Horror Picture Show. I'm sorry, I'm trying to wrap. It's like the Rocky Horror Picture Show. But movement and song was included. It was theater. It was absolutely theater. Burn, I gotta step off now. I go to my tent of my family matters there. Like, thank all of you my hands are up to you and how are you a kick? I wanna find you on the internet somewhere. I'm around, we'll connect, we'll connect. It's nice to meet you. Thank you, Daryl. Good to see you, keep working. Keep doing the work, Daryl. So Roger, I want you to tell us, what do you see in what would a liberated American Indian theater look like to you? I think some of it depends on the audience. If you're trying to speak to native people about native struggle, native issue, native potentials, native spirit, it would certainly have a different shape to me. If you're speaking to a non-native audience and you're trying to educate them, which I hear most of us are tired of, then it might take a different shape, something they're familiar with. So when you're talking about moving outdoors and maybe you're in an arbor of trees and ask people to breathe in, the cedar, the smell of the cedar, the wet cedar, I would want that kind of thing to have our native people in mind. The idea that theater is a vehicle. I've only heard of this thing and I know you've mentioned it in other people. It's the theater of the oppressed, which is actually people that struggle under oppression and racism and all these terrible Western gifts to our culture that they be able to tell their story in their own way. And it's not about production, it's not about money, it's about being able to tell your story and using theater as a vehicle to do that. And I think we as native people have our own ideas of how to do that, we can also use it in a healing way. I was taught that many of our people suffer trauma because they're not allowed to tell the story, the story that they know happened and they're not allowed to tell it. And so using the theater as a way to find, a way to tell those stories that we might all identify with that. For example, my tribe, the Cloudland people were, when the treaties were signed, we were told that we would get a reservation. Well, the reservation never appeared, but we were shipped down, our village was burned down and all our canoes were dragged down to Skakomish about a hundred miles south. And as human beings do, they eventually began to slowly canoe by canoe come back to the land they were removed from. And some of them said, well, if we have to buy land from these white people, that's what they say, we're gonna do it. So again, those are the kinds of stories that I suppose you could say they were history, but they're also much more mythic in my opinion. And they would make a story that becomes timeless because a mythic story to me is a timeless story. That's why they started a long time ago. There's no, 18 years ago or in 1473 or whatever, it's just a long time ago. So when our stories start that way, I think we have the possibility to use mythic stories as a way to encompass a lot of stories. So the storytelling idea I think is profound that we are able to share our own stories and without any interpretation for us by other people that these are the stories we tell. And I know when Fern and I tell stories, oftentimes, not oftentimes, every now and then she'll go to what you might call a R rated quasi X rated story that her people would tell. And no problem, no problem. It's because this is the stories our people tell. And in fact, Fern said it among our people, it was the elders who told those stories because they had the experience and they had all kinds of reasons that they would be the ones to tell. It was because our modesty wouldn't be offended. Yeah, you got no more shame when you were an elder. I'll just do what I gotta do. So for me then, that kind of self-censoring might do to appease a white audience. I think that I'm not worried about that anymore. And because I want my audience, we mostly native people, to benefit from the stories we're gonna share with one another, hear each other's stories and to grow from that and to pass that healing onto the next generation. So again, to me, the question my preference would be to create works that are meant for native people. If white people want to come in and listen and they want to respectfully listen and respectfully say I've learned something, you're welcome to come in. We're not that kind of people that are gonna exclude you but we do have considerations we have to have. This story was written for my people. That story about the village being destroyed by cannon fire, that is from my people because that is a story we carry in our blood in our spirit. And so we need to be able to tell that story in such a way that we benefit from our ancestors passing that story down to us. So I guess mostly it would be for native people to benefit from. And in sovereignty, my people telling the stories of our traditional mythic stories and legends as well as our history. I guess that gets to one small thing which is in Western culture, we all tend to be the big Indian. You're all Indians, you know? And so therefore the real subtle cultural differences aren't as important as the fact that you're an Indian to us. And so that sovereignty idea, I think we have to take control of that and make sure that if I'm gonna tell a Clalem story and explain a story through play, it's gonna be built upon that cultural sovereign experience. And so again, I guess I'm trying to say that I don't know what I'm saying, that's very clear but the idea that I want this to be done for native people and- What do you wanna see? What do you wanna see? I want to make sure our old stories are kept alive. I forget who mentioned it earlier. Oh, this was at another meeting I had this morning. A lady, this elder, I'm working on a book for the Swinomish tribe, illustration for the book. And she was concerned that some of the things that might be said in the book might be misconstrued by the Christian Indians and that we would have our own people challenging the book because it doesn't have the Christian principles. And I've heard that before in other places that I've told stories in a reservation on Western Montana and I got a very, I would say unenthusiastic response and I asked the host, he says, well, we're Christian Indians now so these old stories don't resonate as they used to. And so I'm not judging them at all. I'm just saying that's a reality. And so there's a consideration for that but those are the kind of political choices I think we have to make. Do we tell our old stories as they were originally told or do we modify them for the modern age or do, again, that's a whole conversation. What do you wanna see? What do you wanna see, Roger? Tell us what you wanna see. My thing is always a big storytelling gathering although that doesn't work. It's not the optimal way to tell stories. So for me then, having the audience have a chance to hear stories and to share stories. So how do you remove the barrier between the audience and the performer where it is a we experience and we're sharing stories and maybe the actors are only kickstarting something that continues into the audience. That we are here to share some things that are very important to us and very deep to us in a way that we feel starting to sound like a group or something, a support group. But that idea that I want to see an interaction between the audience and the performers, the creators of the piece. I also wanna see and that's why the outdoor theater and interaction between the audience and the environment itself that becomes a connecting point. So outdoor theater where we're sharing our stories and acting them out and even creating new stories as well. So I think creating new stories is very important too. We hold to the old stories, we share them but we also recognize we're creating new stories right now. So how do we share those new stories too? And again, we have to have in my opinion, a intention, a spoken intention. That we have. We have the intention. We don't need to ask how this is gonna happen. We're already doing it. We don't need to ask how this happens. That's the beauty of this. We're already doing it. We know that telling our stories and not allowing ourselves to be erased is changing the world and making a difference. So when I think about what I am hungry for, it's that conversation of, I'm so tired of discussing the wrongs of white people. I'm just tired of it. I want to discover who I am without all that. So I'm so tired of sitting around talking and discussing the trauma of white people. I just want to make my own therapeutic healing Indian stories. And yes, if it's primarily for an Indian audience, great. I do believe that American Indian theater is trivialized in the white imagination. And it's not seen as real theater or serious theater or whatever theater, partly because traditional stories are trivialized, but this idea of, I would love to get past a point where we're talking about what's white theater and what's Indian theater. And it's just theater. And it fully includes Indian theater. That to me is the future I'm really hoping we get to. And I know that we can because I see it. I see the fact that Nabra invited us, that Neema, I met her as a young kid. And here she is, she's a grown woman and she's going to college and she's carrying this training that she got, not just from Roger and I, but from our native community. All of the native people in our community are care about Neema because she's one of our young people. And so everyone feels responsible and we look out for each other. When I look at Roger and Howie and Daryl and Neema, I see a different way of living in America. It's an erased way of living. We're told that our culture is dead, that we're not very Indian anymore. Something else. But in fact, do you mind muting Roger? I'm sorry. I'm sorry. Do you mind muting? Roger, are you muted? Oh, sure. Thank you. Sorry. That idea of just being recognized for what we do. And I love the idea of taking theater off of the the vaunted precious stage too. Taking theater out of doors, taking theater into spaces that we typically don't see theater. I think that the, I know personally that as a kid, part of thinking theater wasn't for Indians was that it happened like on a big stage in a big fancy building places we didn't go. It wasn't a part of our informal day-to-day life. And yet we told stories constantly and danced for one another and sung for one another. And so we were performing theatrical storytelling and not ever seeing ourselves on those big stages. So just dismantling that idea that that's what theater is. It takes place on a big institutional stage. The idea that there are informal cultural paths to becoming very proficient on stage. Those are things that I think are unfolding and we're working towards those ideas. And it's because of each of you and the ideas that you're carrying forward, the things that all of us heard from our teachers and we're sharing them forward. I should probably have a better idea of what time it is exactly here. And we're all good. It's 6.15, so we have a bit of time. Oh, excellent. And what I'll bring in, because there's a question from the audience that does feel like it relates to what we've been talking about, which is how do you walk the line of sharing some of the wisdom and knowledge around your community, spirituality, et cetera, as a whole versus protecting your sacred knowledge or having those native-only spaces? And I'll expand that to kind of this conversation of like in your ideal world, how do you walk that line? Or what would you see as the balance between having native-only spaces versus sharing that your theater and storytelling and culture more widely with this understanding that we've talked about of white people and non-native people listening and not interrogating, essentially? That's a good question. Answering it for myself, my family, my aunties, oh man, they will keep me in line. My aunties, my family will let me know. They will correct me. Dakota people are good at correcting one another. I will be corrected if I have done something that reflects poorly on my family. So this idea of being accountable to one another, to our families is kind of my own guidance for what of my culture is appropriate for sharing publicly as a teaching and what of my culture is personal and has to do with my own private spiritual relationships and isn't for public sharing, especially in the social media era where we're all talking to impress one another with how super-sacred we all are. The reason that is actually an important thing is because traditional stories and American Indian philosophical concepts are actually intellectual property. Those are ideas that are held collectively by tribes. And over and over again, popular culture, of course, appropriates from indigenous sources. I mean, Alibaba and the 40 Thieves. That's an ancient Persian folktale that has got 2,000 years of being appropriated and repackaged by European consumers. So there's a real risk to having just like what's remaining that's ours taken away from us or appropriated or stolen. So it is, it feels like a real risk. And even just sharing traditional stories, I have to remind audiences that this is a Dakota story that my Dakota people tell. It is our story. It's not the same story coming out of your mouth if you're not Dakota, because literally it's Dakota lived experiences that shape our stories, our songs, our culture. And so this idea of authentic representation of who gets to be the person who represents and speaks for Indian people. Of course, Indians are not monoliths and none of us speak for all of us. I certainly don't even speak for my whole family, let alone my Dakota nation. But that said, we also do stand up and speak for our own standards, values and identity. So it's not an easy answer. And I've not always chosen the right thing. I've had disappointments where people take things that I've shared and they make me feel used. And that's not a good feeling. And I think most native people who share culturally are familiar with that feeling. That said, we're not gonna stop saying who we are and sharing our stories. It's just who we are. So I was taught that to be Dakota, I have to share my stories, not just my mythic stories, but the stories of my family. I have to tell you who the last 10 generations of my family were and all about them. And once again, the reason is because we don't have books. We have winter lodges, we're an oral culture. So I wish that it wasn't a matter of trust and I wish that I never got hurt in these choices, but it's just a chance we take when we engage around cultural content. And it's also, I was gonna say, there are mistakes. I screw up, people screw up and we'd learn and we can be accountable and figure out how to make amends and learn how to do things better. So I don't think Indian people in general want or expect perfection from allies and non-native learners, but the idea that you're trying is huge. So the idea that native content is intellectual property of native people, I think is something that is an idea that if more people knew that and understood it, there would be less of an issue for like how much of this is safe to share. And then quite frankly, I have elders who advise me to share nothing because they are from a generation literally where the consequences were so rugged. So I believe that as a Dakota person, my Dakota mythic worldview holds that we will enter an age of prophecy in which the final age of man will unfold where we will realize our human potential. So that's actually a really hopeful philosophy to hold as a Dakota person. And I feel it in my bones. I feel paradigm shifting right now. I think we all do. So I'm super hopeful. I'm just gonna keep sharing. I know that Roger is someone who has helped me to be less fearful about sharing stories. And to just, yeah, to let go of my fear of white people and just live as a Dakota person and let the chips fall where they may. Not always being afraid of, oh, well, what will happen if I say this or I do that? That's what it's like to be Indian. It is, because we're always disapproved of by everyone. So, and judged by everyone. So, yeah, that's the long answer. I'm sorry, but I'm curious, Nima, I like the space you're making. What are you thinking? I was just smiling and nodding along with you. Everything you're saying as per usual. But yeah, I'm just really thinking about like, for me as well as hearing it from my family, whether what's right or wrong to be shared. I feel like you can also feel it in your bones, in your body. If you're maybe about to let it go a little bit too far and should not be sharing these things, I predominantly go to a white institution. So I was always taught to share your story, right? And share your ancestor's story and they're always with you and your strength comes from them and your family. And so, I continue to share who I am and my knowledge and my stories. And unfortunately, there are always within communities where there are not a lot of native people and I'm usually the only person. So I'm kind of like tokenized. And so with that, I'm especially careful about with what I say as I have been attacked vocally and physically before on my own campus. When I have talked about and shared my stories, I think what Fern was saying, like really hit the head on the nail, but is that how you say the expression? I don't know. I'm terrible at that. But basically her long answer, I think, really hits home to answer to that question. But once again, I just really think it's important for this information to be shared in native spaces and outside native spaces, not to educate white people or anything like that, but me being a mixed person, black and native, I know the intersectionalities and similarities within so much of our culture. And so I think that sharing those stories and coming together is really beneficial. Thank you. We're just about at time. Fern, do you have, or anybody, Howie, Roger, do you have final thoughts or anything you'd like to put in this space? Yeah, Howie. I'll just quickly answer that question. I really like what Fern and Nima said, but yeah, I never and would never publicly like talk about my spirituality stuff just because that's who I am. And specifically, I'm assuming that's a white person that asks that question. I don't know, maybe you're not. But to white audiences, there's just things I would never do because of the nature of their consumption. And like Nima, I've had some really shitty violent things happen to me at the hands of white folks and I just don't feel like going down that road because, hey, I am capably violent and I just don't want to have to do it. I'd like to relax. And so I think that more than anything, I do think that it's sharing that stuff within a POC communities and with the black and native folks is like super important. We should do more of that all the time. But yeah, as far as like sharing it publicly, publicly, especially spiritual stuff, I tend to keep that at the privacy of my own home or my community. That reminds me that what Roger was saying earlier about how native theater is less hierarchical and it's less about who's the diva and who's the boss, that itself is a good antidote to that kind of where there's like super Indians, people who get picked all the time to represent for native people. And they might not be people who are actually in touch with their own community and being kept in check by their own community. But that is something that once again positions us well for theaters. We're ensemble players. We understand the ensemble. We're not divas. We're not diva thinkers. Well, thank you. Is there any final thoughts before I close this out? Any burning ideas? Seattle Repertory Theater, give your land back to native people. Thank you, Howie. That's a great way to end. I'd also like to, before we close out, I'd like to acknowledge that Blake Schellofo, who's a Duwamit storyteller, was meant to be on this panel, but something came off last minute. So make sure to look him up, support his work as well. Also support children of the setting sun productions, which is Daryl Hilares, organization, Indigenized Productions, which is Howie's organization. Check out Changer and the Star People at Sound Theater, which Fern and Roger are working on, and look out for Neema when she gets out of university and in her work at university, because I'm sure her name will be everywhere, I hope, very soon. As please, support native spaces, support native businesses, especially as the holidays come up. And thank you all so, so much for being here. It's really a pleasure and an honor, and I'm humbled. And thank you for sharing all of your thoughts and ideas. Thank you, Nabra, for having us. Roger, thank you. Neema, thank you so much. Thank you. Howie, thank you. Thanks, Fern, appreciate it. Thanks, Nabra. Nice to meet you, Neema. Hi, Roger. Nice to meet you. I think we follow each other on Instagram, so it's fine. Probably. Yeah.