 We are back. It's Muller time, Muller week on Trump week, and it's intoxicating. What is going on here? Tim Apachella, Cynthia Sinclair, we are loaded today. This one we really need six hours for, but we're not going to do that. We're going to go right to the heart of it. Okay, you've had some great thoughts about this, Tim. Let go. Let it fly. Good morning, Jay. Good morning. Good morning, Cynthia. Bottom line is, okay, the media is going to, you know, it's going to pick apart this report. There's 400-plus page report. We'll go on for weeks about all the salacious details of the Muller findings. This will go on and on. And what's it really come to? What's it really mean? So what's the final result? And that is basically what is Congress going to do with this, specifically the Democrats and maybe the Republicans. The decision will be to impeach or not impeach. There's some other options there, but how does this thing move forward? Okay, fair enough. Comments? Well, you just told us Elizabeth Warren just now a few moments ago declared impeachment is going forward with impeachment. So that's kind of partly where it's going forward. Nancy Pelosi has said no. Right? But there's a couple other senators I know, Swalwell is saying that he's on the fence about it. Well, I think right now the Democrats are still in that investigation mode. You know, if you looked at the front page of the advertiser today, it looked like a mosaic because you had redacted report pages and you had the white pages meant there was information. And for me, that front page reminded me very distinctly of the 18 minutes of missing tape from the Nixon administration. We have all these active reports. So the Democrats are still very much in the investigative mode. I don't think they want to rush to the impeachment word, the I word and why? Well, remember the beating that the Republicans took when they brought impeachment articles of impeachment of Bill Clinton. They took a drubbing in the polls. Now, Bush Jr. did become president after that, but barely, barely. And they had a great lead. I mean, Bill Clinton was flawed. He was damaged. And they barely won that election, as you know, by about five or 10 votes in Florida. That was it. But isn't it is it is dangerous to start an impeachment that will fail? You know, there's nothing worse than an impeachment than a failed impeachment. I disagree. Yeah, I don't know. I agree with that. I used to, but I don't agree anymore. I've changed your mind. I like dynamic like that. Yes. How we do that. It's a good thing. We do that here on Think Tech. Okay, so so maybe an impeachment is a good idea just to make the point, right? Just to get into it, just to show that is Misha Goss is the Yiddish word. And by the way, speaking of Yiddish, you know, today's the first day of our Passover. So this morning I get I get a really, really hysterical email. It's the Haggadah, you know, the the prayer book they use on Passover, and it's redacted. Anyway, you know, what? So what about censure? That's an alternative. You know, I mean, I think it's appropriate to say, wait a minute, Trump, you know, you're wrong about this. Calling the thing about, you know, no obstruction, no collusion. That's not accurate, not for him or Barr. And yet that's what they're saying. And the public is confused. So this will undo the confusion. If it gets through the house anyway, I think it would. You cannot be a party that say we stand for the rule of law. We stand for the rule of law. And we want to make sure that if we ever are back in the White House, we are going like the Obama administration, we are going to stand for this principle, and we are going to implement it. You can't talk and not walk. You've got to stand up. So if it's not impeachment, then minimally, it should be censured. Minimally. Something that's going to go on the record here is when, you know, as Mueller was doing was operating within the DOJ guidelines. He was acting like an investigator for a prosecution on the DOJ guidelines. And that's really not what the public doesn't understand that. He wasn't going to find him guilty or innocent. He was just going to lay out what he had and try to avoid making conclusions because the investigator is an investigator. He may make recommendations, but he's not going to make conclusions. He's not a court. He's not a judge. He's not a jury. Not going to do that. And I don't think people realize that. Oh, we found him innocent. No, he didn't need to find him innocent. And he turned up so much material that actually is awful about Trump and about the Russians. I mean, it's shattering what he found. And I don't think that the public understands that. Don't you agree that what came out of that is actually very culpable? It's culpability. It's culpability certainly by the Russians who have denied, who have said, Oh, the report exonerates us, Russia, too. Are you kidding me? Got the headline from Donald Trump. What can I say? Incredible. Incredible. The global lie. The big lie. The big lie. And Trump saying it doesn't exonerate him at all. There's so much material in there on collusion with Russia. I mean, he was involved, actively encouraging them, having the benefit of what they were providing. I mean, there's no question to me that I was inappropriate. And I'm really disappointed that that, you know, that Mueller did not find, you know, a criminal action there. And then, of course, the thing about obstruction, so many things he did to obstruct more than we even knew at the time as a whole laundry list of obstruction things. You know, to me, I find, as a matter of fact, that he obstructed, did everything a president could possibly do to obstruct. And I'm disappointed that there's not more not more action going forward. But he still deserves to be censured. Don't you think? No matter what I mean, I mean, you know, how does that work? I don't know. I don't know if it's similar to a resolution process. I mean, when's the last time a president in the United States been censured? I don't know if we have something of case of that. I don't know. If I was Nancy Pelosi, I would say, don't dwell on this. Let's just move forward. You know, I guess there's a point is a point in there that's worth making. And that is we are here for the past week. And matter of fact, for the past two years, wallowing in this issue, in this reality show, when are we going to start to do business? Well, that's the point. That's why the Democrats are reluctant to talk about impeachment because remember, the House in the midterm elections, you had a swing of 40 seats. That vote primarily was we want you to get something done. You've been put in this office now to get something done. And I don't know if the Democrats can walk and chew gum at the same time. That is, on one hand, have an impeachment process. On the other hand, actually pass things that are going to benefit the American people. And which one's going to take the headlines? You think boring bills about the Affordable Care Act or, you know, subparticles of immigration reform? Do you think that's going to take the front page? Well, you know, it really should, Tim. It seems to me that the press ought to be asking those questions. The press is going for the raw meat. Everybody wants to hear about the Trump and his troubles. But in fact, the press ought to be asking, what happened to the Affordable Care Act? What happened to immigration? What happened to the environment? What happened to climate change? You know, even if the there is no action, well, especially if there is no action, the press ought to be asking for that and donate and don't, you know, devoting x percentage of the space to those things, asking the questions. Because right now, it seems to me, just reading the headlines, Congress isn't doing anything. It's been neutered for a long time. It can't take action. It's stuck. And that means the country is stuck while other countries move ahead. You know, I mean, just a small thing is that Trump made some noise about 5G. And then he said he wasn't going to put any money into it. Oh, that's great. Okay, that that means nothing, doesn't it? Meanwhile, China is moving ahead with 5G and we're behind. This is our technology, they're using it, you know, to the max, and we're not using it at all. And the government is completely neutered on it. So I mean, there's so many issues like that, the press should be asking, what's going on? How come you guys can't do anything? How come you're, you know, neutralized? I think elections are one of the biggest things we need to worry about now and how safe our elections are going to be in the future, both with this disinformation campaign, that they have perfected now to a fine art. And then our own our own stuff that we have, I have some statistics 45 states use voting machines that are so old that they're no longer manufactured. Well, we have 40 states that use machines at least 10 years old. We had 12 states that have jurisdictions with no paper back up. They did hack into some states. Florida got hacked before the 2016 election. They're gonna try it again. What's why not? You know, what's what's what's why not? There's nothing that stops them and they will. And there's really not a whole lot going on with the problem I would ask both of you guys. So okay, let's direct our attention to stopping the Russians from doing this again. What? What do we do? How do we stop them? Make it well? No, that's not gonna help if we can't really prosecute them. What do you do? Maybe you fund better voting machines. Maybe you take Zuckerberg down. Just take him down. He can't any political comment at all. And the others. That affects freedom of speech. But what's more important here, saving our democracy or freedom of speech on social social media? What do you think what can be done if I if I make your Congress? Let's see. You can be the house you can be the same. Oh, how do you be the house? Oh, my God, thank you. Let her go first. I'm the house I would move for impeachment. Just to get it on the record, because I believe there is enough things that this man has done that are impeachable offenses, whether we can charge him criminally or not, we couldn't charge Clinton criminally, but we were able to he will always for the rest of his life. Right? Your point is well taken is that even if you can't succeed in impeachment, you're making the point you're raising the issue. Well, the honorable senator from Hawaii, I would like to say the following. Remember, we're reacting to now a 400 page document that's heavily redacted number one. So I'm sure they're going to find out what all the redacted parts were. And does that have a significant change to this document? But remember all the cases that in all the situations that Mueller had to farm out to other prosecutors in New York and Manhattan. We don't even have a tip of the iceberg in view here, because bottom line is, what about all the things that he has farmed out? You're right. What troubles me is that some of these went to the Southern District of New York. Okay, the Southern District of New York is federal. That's a federal, you know, prosecutorial office. And Trump has control over that through, through bar bar. And, you know, they can put the quash on that they get a new US attorney for that district, they're going to point new people, they can lay out new guidelines. You know, that's not safe. What's safe is is where Mueller is sent it to state prosecutors. I hope he did a lot of that. That something will happen. I think something will happen. You know, AOC has been pushing, as I recall, pushing for impeachment also. So maybe something will happen. The issue is not going to go away. But what about the Russians? What would you do to stop the Russians from what they have done before? Well, number one is restore the funding of budget cuts and staff cuts for that part of Homeland Security that was a task to the duty to make sure the Russians didn't interfere with the 2020 election. The administration has cut their budget. Which is crazy. And it's deliberate is what it is. It's deliberate. He cheated the first time. He's going to cheat the second time. And unfortunately, or attempt to and hopefully he won't succeed. But I'm afraid that he might I work the polls every year for many years now. And I have thought from the beginning and I think I've even said it here on the show that I don't trust how hard it would be. It would be super easy for someone to hack in to the process. And all I do is work one little tiny polling station. If you triple that, all it needs is someone that can hack into the electronics. And as you say, everybody else has 5G but us. So how much easier is it going to be for them to be one step ahead of us? Well, because we don't have any Well, maybe we need to pull up the remember the task force that was assigned by President Trump to investigate the rigged election. Remember, he signed people very early on in his administration to investigate the rigged election, even though it came out in his favor. You know, that soon dissolved because he won. But it was rigged. So he was right about that. You know, there was a statement that I'd like to point out to that it was an official White House statement about what they saw how they saw the report. They were able to see it. But they didn't touch it, redact it, delete anything scrub anything change anything reword anything. And I'm thinking, why are you telling us all these things you didn't do? It's almost like a me thinks that does protest too much. What I mean, it didn't make sense until I started thinking about how Trump does that whole projection thing, where he's going to point out things that, you know, he says what he didn't really do. He doesn't say what he really did do. All of those things. And when he accuses somebody else of it, he's guilty of it. In fact, there's so much bad conduct that's been revealed undocumented. Yes, evidence in this report that, you know, it's, it's, it's, it frightens the conscience. Yes, it does. If these things had come up, say, in January, February, 2017, it would have been an impeachment. But what he's done is the new normal moving in a plurable normal, the new deplorable normal, for example, lying, lying. We have something about lies, don't we? He was lying. If it was all sort of brought into the moment, you know, folded back to the spring of 2017, and we had this kind of lying, it would be a bath of cold water for us. And, you know, people would not tolerate it. Right. But he's, he's managed to develop a new normal on lying. Desensitize the assault, you know, and the press reports that we get fatigued on all the lies. But in fact, to me, you know, that shocks the conscience. And there's that to me, is he's not qualified to serve as president. I agree. He's continually lying to the public. I think what comes out of this report is something that's been mentioned many times is that Trump's ability to influence people to do his bidding. Now, I think what I could say with confidence that Mr. Barr is not really our AG anymore. He's the communication director for the White House. I like that title. That's de facto. That's de facto. That's one of the messages there. But how does he get these people to just fall in line? On one hand, you know, it's, it's amazing. It really is. I've seen generals that, you know, had a great deal of character and ethics, and how they conducted their career has been all of a sudden, they've been corrupted. Now, we can say knock on wood, that we had several people in his administration, when he told them to obstruct justice, obstruct, you know, fire, fire Mueller, and you know, they said, No, I'm not going to do it. And I'm going to quit or I'll resign. Again, comes to mind on this one. I am not convinced that it's, I'm not convinced that he gets off the hook, because they refuse to do his obstruction. No, they don't. He tried. To me, that's enough. Well, the misuse and abuse his power every day. I think it's incredible we let him go on that. He'll continue to do it. Well, obstruction isn't a maybe more efficient at it, you know, obstruction isn't the success of obstruction. It is the intent. And you're, you're, what have you done in the background to make that happen? Is there any question what his intent was? Which is stop their investigation? The very first thing that he said, what was that? There goes my presidency. Now I'm left, right? That was one of his very first statements. It's on like page two of the report. I have trouble buying that. He was trying all this stuff. We know what his intent was. And yet, and yet Mueller says we don't know what his intent was. Let me ask you this person. Obviously, what his intent was, any judge or jury would find intent there. The same thing with the, with collusion with the Russians. I mean, an ordinary human being would find that he's working in league with them. And what is it? Because it was not technically a criminal conspiracy. Therefore, he was not part of it. You can't be part of a conspiracy that isn't a criminal conspiracy. Come on. This is not the kind of guy we want as president. Okay, well, let me go to the question then. You, we will know that it's, it's, you know, it's not a surprise that he obstructed justice. He did it. And it's, it's not good enough to say, well, they didn't follow through. So therefore, it's not obstruction. It is obstruction. Because the intent was there. So if it's black and white, in which for me it is, why aren't we talking about impeachment? Right. Well, let me add another point to that, Tim. And that is, you know, we know he's a dangerous man. Yes, we do. And, and he's going the wrong way. He's still sucking up to Putin. He's making all the wrong moves in all places. Look at the mess he's made of the Korean talks, North Korean talks. And now we've got weapons again. You know, what kind of a solution was that? No solution at all. We're back to where we were. And we're back to threats where we were. He doesn't want to talk to the Secretary of State anymore. He wants him gone. He's dangerous. He's dangerous. And if you give him, you know, what, a year, a year, a year and a half, much less, you know, a month and a half, he could create problems that we could never, ever solve. We could not afford to have this man continue as president. You know, regardless of whether there was a criminal conspiracy or whether there was a technical criminal action in obstructing justice, we cannot afford to have him continue. And that's what Congress and the people have got to see. Often, you know, they've said, a lot of people have said, a lot of commentators have said, there's never going to be an impeachment or, for that matter, a resolution of censure unless the people rise up, the people have to be behind it. That's what I said last week. You guys said, the attorneys need to act and I agree. The attorneys and the Bar Association and they need to act, but also the individual needs to call and call their representatives in those red states. It doesn't matter if they call the people in the blue states and they need to call the people in the red states. And they need to read the report for themselves. That's what I think is super important. That people have to write email till we're all blue in the face. I agree. That's not happening. Congress will be affected. And that's not happening because no, it's not. Well, it's not happening, but we all know that the legislature, you'd be any state in this country or the federal government. Usually they may hear from five people, you know, and that's a big deal because they actually pay attention to the five people that took the time to write an email to their office. Well, what if it's thousands and thousands and thousands? Oh, please. Look at what happened to President Johnson. He finally got worn down by the protests. He decided not to run for another term. Now, this finally happened. He realized that this was a groundswell. But let me let me talk. So I mean, I think it's a I think it's an important point to realize that Nancy should not really wait because the danger is so great going forward. Already seen how dangerous this man is making the world. He's ruining NATO. He's enabling Russia and China. He's losing our edge in so many ways. And of course, climate change is destroying us and doing nothing. Anyway, that's one thing. But the other thing is I think we should talk about like to get your reaction is that you know, what have we seen and discussed here at this table over the past several months? It's about distraction. Yeah, what will follow now is, you know, as you said, the press is going to wallow in this and we're going to be studying this report and, you know, going through his machinations and all. But what how does he stop that conversation? He's done all he can do. He said, you know, no good or we should no obstruction and it made his case completing some hours made his case. They're not going to, you know, do anything affirmative to solve the world's problems, but they will create distractions. A war, maybe some military action worries me the most something something at the border that will take the public's attention away from the Mueller report. That's what I worry about. And that's a long lasting effect. Yeah, what is that action and to what degree that does this? Yeah, along the lasting effect, adverse effect to our nation, which makes me kind of go back to the whole elections thing, which is what I'm worried about people doing. Well, we'll just vote him out and everybody will put all their hope on the election when he will probably cheat and we can't trust the election really. So I think we need to do something now. Like you say, that's my reaction. Yes, we need something right now. What we do now will affect the election. And that's why it's important that we do something important. Whether we get that, you know, impeachment all the way through or not, it's going to make a difference with the voters. And if we can have an overwhelming change at the voting polls, then maybe he won't be able to cheat because it'll just be too overwhelming. You know, people will rise up against it. He's got a lot of money. He's fighting, you know, for his next term. He's campaigning like crazy. Yeah, he's pulling out all the stops. He's got all these sorted people around him that are helping do that. And they'll cover him for all things being equal. He stands a good chance of winning next year. Let's talk about let's talk about a recent development that's Bill Weld, who is the vice president candidate of the Libertarian Party in 2016. Remember him? The most helpful thing on my his throat is hat in the ring. And I'm just going to do a historical perspective because the last any time that you have a sitting president and someone challenges them in the primary process, you had Johnson and you had Eugene McCarthy and Bobby Kennedy come out. Well, that was it for Johnson. He said, I'm not running again. But then you had Gerald Ford as president and who came out against him. I believe that was a guy named Ronald Reagan. So, you know, in the primary campaigns, they beat each other up. And when it came to the general election, he was tarnished. He's tarnished and he and Gerald Ford lost the election. You also had ever Kennedy going out against Carter in the day, beat him up in the primaries and then so Carter but didn't have a chance in the general election. And Patrick Buchanan to President Bush. Now, Bush was able to pull it off. No, he didn't pull it off. But senior didn't pull it off. So we don't know what Bill Weld is going to do to Donald Trump. We don't be saying. Well, you're saying I'm going to fiscal conservative, you know, conservative principles. The Republican Party was based on conservative principles when it comes to the deficit, to spending. And Bill Weld is, I think, going to focus on those those topics. We'll see. But he's also come out against the president as far as all of what's in this report. He says he cannot instruct, you know, the house to bring impeachment. But he says they shouldn't rule it out and that he knows that something should be done because we deserve better than this. And I really liked hearing him say that. I hope he gets some traction but remember that, you know, Trump is Trump is going to find stuff to undermine him make up stuff. Thank you. Make up stuff. And he's going to wait for all the Democrats to fight with me. You know, you know, these are not off the wall. These nicknames are very carefully selected and he'll do that with all the Democrats who are running against him. You know, he'll try to divide them and have them fight with each other. As you said, they're all bad guys except him and look at his great record. You know, I get a big question to throw this one on the table is the economy markets still going up. It's fragile. Very fragile. And knowledgeable, knowledgeable followers of the market say that it won't be long before we have a very serious recession. Interest rates are going up. You know, October. Interest rates are going up. That's a big thing, right? When it comes to markets, October is usually a downtime for the stock market. And since President Trump has always pinned all his hopes and dreams on the economy as it directly correlates to the stock market, which is a horrible thing to do, we'll see what happens. It's October because October traditionally is a bad time. Well, I think the thing about is if you can create an alternative universe, alternative facts, you know, then you can fool people on the question is the ui long question, you know, you can fool some all the time and all some of the time. But can you fool all all the time or a sufficient number all the time when this 2020 election. So I want to tell you about Andy Barowitz. Andy Barowitz wrote an article of I think in the New Yorker and recently it was being circulated this morning. And he was talking about, you know, Sarah Huckabee, what not, Sanders Sanders. Where she was she was saying back when that many people in the FBI had come to her and told her that Comey was not respected within the FBI countless countless people. And this is a small point, but it rings true somehow. But when Mueller asked her about that in the course of her interview in the investigation, she's I've no evidence for that, you know, and of course, take that on top of all of these fabulous lies that they've been telling and that she's been the point of and to find that she's making statements without any support at all, just making him up and throwing them on the wall, one after the other. I don't know whether the people still accept her. I don't know whether all the press and all the lists of all those lies and, you know, the kinds of things that come out in Mueller's report are enough to get people aggravated about this already. The new normal is it's okay to lie. That was Barowitz's column. It's okay to lie. In fact, what did he say? She thought that the press was engaged in a conspiracy against the liars, an anti-liar conspiracy, which is terribly unfair and inappropriate. I'm fair to the liars. I'm fair to the liars. The press secretary wanted to lie. It was okay, and the press should not attack her for engaging in lying. I mean, really, I mean, it's funny, Barowitz is always funny, but it's sad that we are at that point. Well, we have something that Richard Nixon wish he would have had, and that is Trump news agency. I mean, excuse me, Fox News Agency. If Nixon would have had that, the whole history of our country would be different today. Yes, it would. Because that's what really 40 percent of Trump supporters are watching daily and not turning on to any other station. That's it. It was interesting to watch Fox News throughout the day as the Mueller report came out, starting with just kind of the facts and really, you know, just trying to digest the report itself. And then as the day went on, they got more and more and more behind the whole no collusion, no obstruction. See, look, this exonerates him, blah, blah, blah, stuff. In the beginning, they were just kind of trying to report the facts. They were being a fairly, you know, reputable type of news agency. And as the day went on, I mean, I couldn't even watch Hannity. He just made me crazy. I was like, OK, watch this guy. He's an idiot. The press has to go beyond just rehashing what Trump is doing, you know, setting the agenda, because he's been setting the agenda. And we have to, we, all the press, all the media, we have to look at the more important things, connect the dots, see the larger issues, and not accept Trump's agenda. Final comments. Final comment is more investigation about the redaction, what comes out of that. And then, you know, they'll discuss impeachment, maybe a censor, you know, a censor. I don't know what they're going to do. Read the report. Where's the thing that's on? Read the report. Everybody read the report and call your representatives. And we'll continue to have this discussion. Tim Apichela, Cynthia Sinclair, thank you very much, you guys. Thank you. Till next week, Trump greatly. It's smaller time.