 It was like it was like I was connected with everything around me All of a sudden I just started questioning everything I'd ever been told You know by the time by the time I got high that very first time When it started to hit me And I'm like well Can't get enough of vintage strains go check out the collab we just did riot seeds and suck lord One of new york's premier toy makers. We have a resin cast toy one out of 27 Only 27 made exclusive to our uh to our customers for the first seven days So go check it out. Link's going to be in the description. Go show him some support So I'm here with johnny Is that how you want to be known? Yep. That's fine. Okay with johnny one of uh mad jag's partners from the mad jag canyon And we're going to have a little discussion about um the mad jag era and and his perspective on everything that went down and in his experiences from his angle So mad jag didn't help me lead on this because he knows the the important questions and and adam I kind of just want to sit back maybe ask a few things here and there But let you two have a conversation about those years because that's what people really want to hear So let's take it away mad jag well the other day I was Speaking with matthew and trying to give him some history of how I met you and and it started pretty far back with my friendship with Doug and then hearty Because hearty's wife Was what was her name? Amanda Okay, I couldn't remember Amanda Amanda's the one who invited you and and uh walley and martin right? well she I was in Well to go back to the source, which is the the weed would you believe? I was living in Manchester, england with martin And allison whom both of whom you came to know later And amanda had already moved to phoenix. I had known her in birmingham and through martin. They were an item Anyway, we were both a study in film at majesty university and um Amanda sent us some of the original mad jag I think 78 And um, we smoked we saw these tiny little joints, you know and back then matthew you probably you know Or maybe you're too young We would make splits out of um, you know five skin joints. It was like a Quite a operation To add tobacco in and stuff exactly lots of tobacco, you know, you had to be able to smoke tobacco You needed some content in there with a with the leaf matter Right. Well a hash no no What I was going to say was it was hash mostly And then we had this little present from arizona From amanda in a little vacuum pack. We saw these tiny little joints, you know so Two of us like martin and I and there was another fella there who was sharing our little house in um in Manchester and we thought oh what the hell is this, you know and we proceeded to smoke the entire thing, you know Yeah between two of us And you know 20 minutes later. We're in the catatonic stage We just had never experienced, you know hashy As you know better than I you know is um, yeah Much more different high to the um, oh, yeah You know grass and and jim and mad jag there had grown the mad jag, you know I think that was your year before You did it with dug jimbo or No, it was with dug Right. Oh, okay. So it must have been that year. Yeah Um, so one year was that was that 78? Yep Yep, you know jim. I think it was sooner. I I I think it came sooner my recollection is that because By the oh, maybe not but anyway, um, no, I think it was sooner anyway It was grass as opposed to hash That's the point and it was and we were completely ripped, you know for four or five hours Barely able to function because we'd completely over done it, you know And yeah And um, anyway, um, so I I have some questions for you since you were in manchester Um, what year what era was this? Roughly 70s. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah 76 77 You know, we went there in the autumn of 76 and it was a one year film course I was already working at the bbc and stopped me when you've had enough of all this but No, no working in the bbc and then I went to Uh study film to advance my career And um, anyway, uh, and and I spent a year up there. So we were there from 76 to june 77 autumn 76 So that's the year. Where were you raised in england? I was I was brought up on a farm in debenture in debenture. Okay. Yeah, if you know england at all That's the southwest corner. My dad was a farmer and and we had a lovely Childhood on a farm in debent. Yeah, and then I went to Birmingham university The teacher training part of after a year. I wanted to be a teacher which Never really Yeah, yeah So birmingham great cities these if I made birmingham and manchester great music scenes You know, I collect music from the punk rock and northern soul specifically northern soul like 70 60 northern soul and um The reggae stuff that was coming in during the late 70s and late 60s early 70s to to manchester I collect all that stuff all of it and birmingham. Don't forget. Oh, yeah, bring it. Yeah, sorry. I just It's close to my heart. Uh, you know, I had six or seven great years there Um and birmingham. We used to go to the um to the scar and reggae Yeah, yeah, we got to know through my work at the bbc We we got all these characters come in and um and um Out there at the bbc don let's the dj Have you heard of him? No, I don't remember say it again the name don let's he was an old reggae dj. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I remember that name Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, and and of course one of the reasons Jim invited me and I've written a book about this about that about you know this yeah So a lot of that that reference to my to my time in birmingham is in this novel that's actually I'm working on the last uh Anyway, it's on my bed here, but i'm working on the last Read through it's going to come out and um, I'll be glad to send you a copy. Oh, I love it Yeah, anyway long story, but that's um, yeah, yeah birmingham was wonderful back then and great clubs too and Tremendous bands yellow and spencer davis that became traffic davis. Oh, yeah Yeah, mid zeppelin just ran the corner in wolverhampton and Yeah, lots of lots of stunning bands But yeah the scar and the reggae scene was tremendous and some of the the jamaican guys would take over these Whole streets of you know row houses. Oh, yeah, you guys call them terrorists. We call them in england and One house would be dedicated for the shabines. They called them which is the parties, you know Yeah, and I remember going there the first time with three or four mates. We were the only white guys there, you know And we were tolerated. I don't know how welcome we were but when you went when you went in, you know, the guy would Hand you a a cone of um of ganja, you know, as they called it, you know that that the way they grew the grass and Jamaica Yeah, and you'd powerful you'd have one each, you know, that's awesome, you know and and and they'd be playing that really cool laid-back scar and and reggae and What a scene, you know And everybody ripped of course I would have I would have that's that's what I would dream to have been around for Like if I could go back in a time machine would be to see that era of uh, England because the music the scab the reggae scene and how many people influence later on Yeah, that's amazing. Yeah, it was fun. It was it was great times, man. We were wild, you know Or in fact, you know, when I came to arizona jim probably saved my life, you know, because That we would have been finished at 50, you know, but yeah so I was Go ahead a hash culture In England like was that is it was it? Yeah, yeah We seldom saw grass at least in the scenes I was in as I say the ganja that the jamaicans brought in of course from The caribbean was the closest we saw to any leaf, you know, oh, we got we got the lebanese the blonde lebanese sometimes um, and then the also the um, um afghani Sometimes the afghani was streaked with white and I I don't know. I will We used to maybe we were dreaming, but we think it was opium in it, you know, maybe. Yeah, I've heard about that So I was watching a video the other day and there was they were showing the process of how The hash is mixed and made in afghanistan And what they were doing was bringing in they had the nice hash the creamy beautiful stuff and they had it all Melted down, you know Really worked real heavy and they were throwing in the garbage on top of it garbage. It's a little bit of opium Is a little bit a little bit of like the crappy hash from the earth and they're mixing it all in so that they could sell It for a higher price. Yeah. Yeah, they were mixing in all kinds of crap just to just to Sell it for a higher price and apparently they do this each year and it's an old practice of mixing the bad hash with the good hash But yeah, they also mix in supposedly opium From what that said. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, the streaks, you know We remember the white streaks and it the afghani was the sort after lebanese was okay. Moroccan was okay You know, well fine, you know, but but the afghani everybody wanted that and it was it was quite a bit more powerful, you know, and I we always thought because it was you know, really, you know, you didn't feel much pain for After having some of that stuff. It was tremendous, you know But we always, you know, and it was an education to if I may go on to arizona, you know to to to meet Jimbo and Yeah smoke the That would have been Jim and I worked for two years in the canyon my book only chronicles one, but I remember the first meeting Jim at David Hardy's this guy that was married to the english girl. That's the connection, you know And smoking grass in the morning, you know, I was thinking wow, you know, because we only in England it was, you know You went out and had five pints of strong beer Yeah, yeah back and and you were you were you know, you couldn't move hardly laugh or I bet a girl with you. You might be able to Miss jiff with her, but mostly it was, you know, you just laid out, right? Yeah, but that was the introduction to grass and and how much more invigorating it was as opposed to innovating, you know, um, yes The the the oxidization you guys know better than I sure, you know, when That was the trouble with the small sticks and seeds that came in from Mexico, right and columbia, which was It it zonked you out. You got high, but it wasn't invigorating and that's what turned me on to The mad jagweed was this, you know, you have a puff in the morning. We used to go and throw the football around and David Hardy had a little park opposite there. You may I'm sure remember that Jim, but you know Yeah, buddy The reason why I said 78 is that's when Doug and I grew and yeah, I only grew once with Robert And I I didn't have I I didn't know David Hardy yet or Amanda So it was Doug and I our first year in 78 Well, maybe I'm I'm inventing this story to make it because that's what I wrote about in the book, but anyway But I remember I guess it was the whole point was that it was grass, you know in and there's little New York needles as opposed to the to the Like chumka hash used to get and we'd break off a bit of hash and we'd heat it You guys know all that right and then you crumble it into the tobacco Where this but the the grass that we smoked in Manchester that year was the first real, you know, neat Strong grass side. It was insomnia. It didn't have seeds the one. No, it did not exactly. It was insomnia. Yeah, so That makes sense though because the the even the Jamaican columbian. Well, I don't know about Jamaican. It probably Uh, columbia and mexican a lot of that stuff was, you know, um Dried in the sun so it was all just oxidized to shit and And can be heavy cbn. You're gonna be tired. It's gonna wear you out So that's what most people were used to when you got like that fresh grown Not oxidized not sun dried not gold weed. I'm sure that was just so energizing Yeah, yeah, for sure and uh, and and I think that Jim was probably in at the very early stages of I mean, I think it was um Humboldt county, of course is famous for starting it probably in the mid 70s, right and yeah The guy's learning how to pull the males and um, and how to how to and and the three the Vital three four days after you cut it, you know, how you took care of it and um, and uh, that was um an idea Again that I developed which didn't actually happen, you know, it's a novel what I wrote and um, and the second part is about uh Going down to mexico in and to ahako, which was the origin of the seeds, you know, yeah And and jim if I don't throw him under the past here, I think the statute of limitations is right out, but You know his connections down there with with some characters. Anyway, that's that's later in the story and and yeah, it was the grass was was was You know opened our minds in a way in every sense, you know, the the Sentimental green the green I think we used to call it. I'm not an expert on these strains or anything. I seldom had very much after that my years with The gym at my early years in America Have occasional but you you were there at the at the beginning and that's just you know what I mean? Like that's what that's what fascinates people. It's not necessarily like does this guy know everything about strains Does he know everything about bringing it's it's the guys who were there the the the guys who took the risks that put their lives on the line to to get us from point a to point b and those are the guys that We all like people of my generation Really look up to because like i'm from a generation where like when I started growing real heavily It was during california's prop 215. So it was already semi legal, right? but I was dealing with other stuff that wasn't quite so legal and trying to walk that fine line, you know And and I I spent countless nights up wondering if my door was going to get hit because you know the the plants were too smelly You know during harvest time that the harvest time sweats, you know Like so I can only imagine during an era where it's just draconian laws I mean you were coming from england risking it all over here and not knowing what your future would hold if you got caught It's just it's pretty pretty inspiring pretty inspiring Well, thank you. I mean, yeah, I mean the motive for me was of course was was the adventure I love the southwest Dry climate compared to, you know, obviously a damp wet cold climate in england and Being out in I was already a bit of a rock climber and and backcountry kind of guy and I just loved it and and I You know fell in love with this man here. No, I'm kidding. We spend a lot of time in the tent together Yeah, I bet I'm sorry. I'm feeble english jokes. No, no No, you know what impressed me was how organized jimbo was, you know, I thought I was coming into these kind of uh I would know, you know before I committed obviously we and before he committed to me We didn't know one another in um, you know, the the winter of 79 we met I think down in phoenix wasn't it jim? at david's house, I think so at david's or or at Was dug living down there then no, no, I don't think so It must have been that david's right but but but I started to talk to jim and um and and and dug for reasons that Left alone. He wasn't able to work that year Yeah, and and so jim started to talk to me about it and I thought well, what am I getting into, you know, just to Uh, it's kind of, you know, a bunch of spaced out hippies and it's going to be dangerous But jim was so organized. He's he's kind of a neat freak. Yeah. Yeah, he's very organized much neater than me and uh, I know that I uh, you know, we um, we were like these two Poles apart, you know, here's me coming from london from working in the bbc and uh, a drinking kind of Lay about you know, yeah, and there's this Guy that was into carlos castanader and A much more spiritual and much more healthy as I say, he probably saved me from an early death Yeah, I've gone back to london. I would have carried on that You know very unhealthy life, but but jim but jim was so organized and um and once I saw all that and how together he was, you know That that's what that's what persuaded me, you know, if I'd run into this guy who was utterly stoned all the while not to say that we Take in all sorts of things and I don't know how much he wants me to tell you about Get this wonderful little house in cottonwood Arizona catclaw on the street was called catclaw and It was like this little heave and of um safety, you know, because obviously our crop was um in the mountains, you know in the canyon and um and and as soon as I went into his house and saw how Neat and tidy he kept everything and everything stashed away. He's he's infamous in our circles for his little bottles. In fact here I got one right here Well, this this might not be typical, but this is something he'd give me but he's he's infamous of having all these little tiny bottles with the various, uh, you know Rugs There you go. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, he's he's always leaving these little things out I'll When you read the book and um when netflix makes the film out of it. I'm dreaming one hitter Oh, nice brand new I went I went in the head shop recently and saw this and you open it up and put your buds inside and then you pull the match All the sneaker toks Didn't you have a pipe that we could toke in bars? I remember we went to Prescott that evening for the um that day for the Rodeo Fourth of july rodeo. Yeah, fourth of july rodeo Matt we never saw a cowboy a cow a bull or anything. We were just in the bars and And jim, I remember we went into that we we drove his car across I think there were five or six of us and we drove across from gerome, arizona. It's called great place it was back then and um And and we went over the mountains to Prescott. It's a big windy You know through the fingers mountain. Yeah, and then we went into um a country in western bar to start the afternoon You know to get a drink Yeah, jim jim had these m80s. You know what those are the explosives. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah And he said johnny go around the back and uh, we'll come in the two doors, you know So I thought the hell is this, you know, and I let the uh, but I lit it, you know And and I threw it down by the door and opened the door That was your entrance. Yeah And then just as I came in one side and all the cowboys, you know, wear their hats and the girl, you know It was a real country in western bar. Yeah, and then on the other side, uh, jim dropped his And uh, so so all the heads turned to us, you know, because the place was pretty packed Rodeo july 4th and then boom the crack goes off the other side and in come the other two or three guys with with jim And um, I wouldn't say we took over the bar, but you know, that's a way to make an entrance. Yeah, I can appreciate that We were walking down the street on the way there and we passed it You know people have to park their vehicles for 10 15 blocks in all directions and they'll come in two days early and park them and Sleep in the back of them because you can't there's no place to park 10 20 000 people show up So we're walking down the street from where we parked and there was a pickup truck with cases of beer just piled On each other in the back and we looked around and we grabbed we each I don't know. I think we grabbed like two cases And we just took off down the street and when we got to main street back there, um On whiskey row, which it was legal then to walk with alcohol in the open outside On whiskey row on this two block section We just started handing beers to people and six packs to people and We had so much. It was just funny I hope whoever saw that whoever's truck that is it would be really cool if they were watching Yeah, it's up to you bill Right. No, it was the wildest couple of years of my life and that's that's saying something, you know And these two years I spent with my partner here, you know, but yeah, but that's what persuaded me You know the grass and the adventure of it for sure obviously the hope to make some money, you know Which we certainly did You know, we had two years the first year we We found a wonderful little garden, not so little maybe And we worked like hell to prepare that just the two of us that year And we dug a lot of holes remember those holes Jim that we dug and and then this And then we pulled it off and it was it was great, you know, I mean it was yeah, the risk was huge It was a Mormon county Christ. It was Yeah, we would have been in serious trouble if we'd been napped, you know I always felt in the canyon that you know, I didn't say that we were safe because you know, there was methods, you know They had the infrared cameras. I believe in those days, you know and um, and also of course Even though we wound the you know the garden through the we had manzanita manzanita, right Jim on one side In pine trees and pine trees and it was up from the creek, you know, you could walk by One of the things I always remember of course in the autumn in the fall when it was due was the smell You could absolutely smell the weed from the creek, you know Yeah Yeah, so a guy walking through if anybody did I mean in and Jim says that in four years I don't think we saw more than one One or two one footstep and that was some hippie hiker went through there, but Very wasn't that it was so, you know, 30 miles from a road or anything But to get into it you had to descend via an enormously exhausting um Rockfall But basalt it is And and if you we tried we looked for many other ways, but they were all not only virtually impossible and exhausting but dangerous too because There'll be cliffs and then there'd be a scree slope, right? And then another cliff and you had to wind your way through and the and The soil was loose, you know, there were times I remember when we explored I don't know if you remember Jim, but you know, there was a chance you could have Slipped and gone over the edge, you know not to mention I I got speared by You know one of those dreadful agaves that have like a needle on the edge My leg was swollen for Or Because they're slightly poisonous, right? Agave pares pares, I remember was one parrots parrots. Anyway, we were Anyway, that was the only way we got we dropped in was through that, you know, you was no path. It was just Working your way down these boulders and and when the people came in to help us You know with the harvest at the end of the year, you know, they were exhausted Because I was utterly unused to we were in good shape and even so there wasn't a trail going down You actually had to descend boulders and shit So that is a while that is a while Lots of branches and bushes Right crashing through them and we Very carefully clipped just a few That were in critical spots where you might have to jump from one boulder down three feet to a big boulder And you know, you couldn't be jumping into oblivion without seeing it So we cut a branch so you could at least see where you're going to land All right Once I was stepping down with a 30 40 pound pack And I already took the motion to move and there was a rattlesnake coiled up right where I was going to step And I had to throw myself sideways into the bushes My pack just pulled me down and protected me if it banged against the next boulder and You know, we had some interesting little experiences None of us ever got got bitter anything those scorpion bites We did have a friend who came down who sprained his ankle really bad mic. If you remember my guy I sure do and we uh I know you do because you were Tuning a motorcycle with him and you had him get on the motorcycle your motorcycle in phoenix and he was on it Holding the throttle and revving it and you were doing something and you said okay now do this and he popped the clutch And I told him The motorcycle shot up into the air and he was flying behind it with his body horizontal to the ground And then he let go of the bike and it just kept going and then he he did a full body slam boom down onto the ground He was accident prone that guy Mike's a good guy. He's still alive. He lives in north phoenix I'd come last year He doesn't remember things well. So he can't drive anymore But I'll be going to see him in the next few weeks along with robert Yeah All the old we never got bit and know that even the scorpions I once was convinced there was a snake in my sleeping bag I was probably had too much smoke that night Yeah, no and ratlers. Yeah, a lot of rattlesnakes a lot of rattlesnakes I remember climbing up the what that wash one You know that steep path And and putting my hand up on something and hearing the rattle, you know And just jumping back like jim did threw himself into the yeah It's such a shock, you know, yeah, you don't mess around with those things and you hear that rattle you jump Right. We have him out here That's for sure and you're in your deserty area, you know, I think you survive, you know, I've heard that you can survive a rattlesnake But of course you do mostly, you know, but they did say that, you know, it's it's pretty pretty Developing for 36 48 hours, which would have meant if we were out there on our own, which we often were Yeah You didn't lie lie in the shade and hope you had enough water because if you start to try to get out You send it through your system. Yeah. Oh, I remember jim gave us the Jimbo you had those little rattlesnake kits, right? Which had to turn out to be worthless That they made you feel safe Later when they did a little bit, but they had a like a box cutter in them that you're supposed to slash at the Oh my god And then there was something like a suction thing. I wasn't there that you're supposed to pull the suck the venom out Oh, yeah Yeah Well, those came later and they were more accurate because they were a empty big hypodermic and when you press down They would suck in. Oh, yeah, if you applied them within one minute That's a venom out being bitten Um, it would get some venom out of the bite site before distributed to your blood Unless you got struck on the neck Then you're a goner. Yeah Probably and the name of that wash we nicknamed it the salt mine. Yeah, because it would make you sweat so much And it was about for that was only about 12 or 1300 feet vertical only But at the bottom in where Doug and I first worked it was 1600 feet and we That's where you and I actually went in originally To the old garden and then we started hiking upstream to look for a new garden And we were we couldn't find anything that met our standards for four hours or something like that And then we sat down take a break and we looked up above and we said, wow, that looks like a little alluvial plateau Maybe up there. There it was Double e I think I have already told map We called it the double e because if you get the actual topo map of that area Which I won't disclose you it fell right under the word something creek And where the two ease were in creek was exactly where the garden was. That's funny. That's how we named it the double e That makes sense It was a beautiful, you know, that's the other thing that I sort of inspired me as well or at least to write was how it was a beautiful You know setting, you know this oh, yeah, you know Those creeks in those desert canyons where they've got live water whether you have the sycamores and Not too sure if there's many cottonwoods, but olders You know anyway a riparian Growth they call it, you know that grows alongside the streams, of course It's just gorgeous down there and we had a swimming hole too Not exactly, you know almost like a swimming pool that opened up gym. Didn't it after the Flood I think anyway, there was a place where you we could plunge, you know and swim four or five strokes Um, so, you know in the heat of the summer Oh, yeah You hike down there and of course we drank straight from the creek all the time because Upstream, you know, we're up towards the little town that we won't mention But upstream of us it was dry So you knew the water was fresh and you know, we just drank straight from the And it was safe Sure, yeah It came out below the town. It didn't flow through the town Otherwise it could be polluted when it rained, of course, and it was a big summer Thunderstorm it could wash through and if someone had Driven across it and there might be oil in it, but for it to go miles Yeah, it and us actually drink at that moment. Yeah, it would be so dilute. Yeah But through the summer it was pretty dry for several miles above us and but it somehow The the water came above surface in our section And that's why it was also safe because if you stood on the rim of the canyon in the summer With all the trees you couldn't see water Yeah, there was only one or two spots that we'd see a glint of water if you walked along The canyon edge which takes hours anyway. Yeah Yeah, it was it was quite nice and we also realized that fishermen aren't going to go down in 100 degree heat 1600 feet or whatever. Yeah to go fishing and then have to hike out in the heat in the afternoon. No, no No, so Johnny was there during skunk one, right the skunk one girl. Yep. Yep Do you remember any of the scents as you could describe them of this skunk one crop as it was going through flower Close up close up smells if you can remember Yeah, it was obviously completely different from the sativa, which was in my opinion Lovely scent, you know, in fact, Jimbo had a good idea of Of course, we were up against the legality and Or illegality of it then but to make the the sativa into A scent what do you call it perfume for? Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know what happened with that But the skunk was completely different. You know, I mean Obviously, it was just like somebody just Wasn't as bad as a some as you know, a roadkill skunk, but it was very Very very powerful and and much more Sort of what's the word? Acre almost, you know much more well potent true, but more sort of a Pungent there you go. Yeah. Yeah, it was it was not as pleasant by any means the sativa was beautiful I can still remember there was a skunkiness to it Second so there was a skunkiness to it and the skunk one with some absolutely Absolutely, right Jimbo. Yeah Well later after harvest and they were dry because when you crushed the bud to roll it it filled a room Yeah, easily That's wild. I didn't I didn't remember much about how it smelled While it was growing. I love the scent of all those flowers, but It was particularly skunk once it was dried And then you're gonna break a bud But you didn't even have to break a bud if you open jar of that even in the house The whole house would be oh, yeah Look But the sativa to get back to it the the mad jag as I was thought of you know, the mad jag was the sativa strain and You know those blooms you could pull them down You know obviously in the autumn, you know and and just brush a brush them a little bit. God, it was delightful It's just great And you really didn't need to brush them that much as I say I mean you could if the wind was right when you was crossing the creek or just walking around our camp, you know, I was hidden on the far side of the From the garden from the Louisville plain and you could absolutely smell it and it's a big thing I won't go on too much about my book, but it was a big thing in the close scrapes that I wrote about in the novel With the you know how the we nearly got caught because of the The smell and I remember with when we came out when the year that Sammy helped us Jim Yeah, this was this wonderful crazy guy that helped us with the work Swiss guy We we we we we had that camper that I got remember and We put all the boxes on the bunk and on over the cab. You remember that that setup And Sammy and I drove it out and we went to we came around the Anyway, long story, but we wanted to have breakfast or lunch or whatever it was we were driving out, you know and We we of course you want inside the camper the smell was over parry but even outside you could smell it and And there was a scene we we went into the cafe to get some, you know to have a meal In this little town and the sheriff the deputy sheriff's truck kept pulled alongside The the the camper it was like a four-wheel drive, you know with a camper rig on top Yeah, and I'm looking through the window and I go. I don't know if I'm allowed to use foul language Yeah, yeah, yeah, you're okay Yeah, you know This is dodgy to put it mildly, you know Half the I don't know about half the crop but boxes and boxes and we enough to put you In a way. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I'll get you put away And um, I was terrified that the sheriff would you know, probably some T tolling Mormon. Oh for sure some backwards T tolling Mormon. Yeah What the hell's that smell, you know, anyway Suffice to say that but I I think I've got a fairly good scene in the book that sort of Mirrors that you know, uh, let's let's talk about your book real quick. What's it called It's called the year of the mad jag All right, you're the mad jag and and do you have a website or a place where you people to buy it? I do Do I should I send you the link at the end just you can say it right here and then I'll add it in at the end too Well, it's jonathan slater dot com my full name jonathan slater s l a to r And um, maybe I can Send you the link directly to absolutely at the end and you can chuck it on the screen when you edit Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. It's um, it's one two little awards It's the best one being the william fault. No creative writing competition. That's crazy in new allons Yeah, I went to new allons and It's taken a time of course here. We are jesus 40 years later, but I I wrote it In the in the 2000s I was actually living in new zealand and wrote a version that Was worthless So I I wrote it again when I had some time when my children were Taking care of themselves a bit more anyway when I was I live up here in taos new mexico. Yeah, and um, anyway So and I tried to get a um a traditional publisher, you know An agent and the whole deal But there's so so very few of those now, you know, especially for new unknown writers, you know, yeah You know, everything's it's the whole publishing thing is just like the film business. I've worked in the film business It's all marketing how you market yourself how much money you have to market yourself everything Yeah, it's all that. Well, I guess my point was that it's all in turmoil. It changes every week You know almost your every year, you know, nobody really Knows what's going to happen next, you know the whole shift to Um kindles and um, yeah, you know the digital and audio books So anyway the point of all that being that is I sort of tried to get Many times I sent it to 60 70 agents and publishers and you know, I got sick and tired of the rejection So I almost gave up on it Yeah, but but I decided recently I actually a Production designer on a film I was working on read it and a couple years ago and he said this is great You got to get it out. I'm trying not to slap my arm back too much, but um It's a good story. Yeah, I'm obviously biased but uh, thanks to that man sitting on the top of the screen there, you know Yeah, I mean it was uh, you know somebody once told me I should write a memoir and I said no It's that wouldn't be interesting, you know, because For all the risk that we took um There was nothing that thrilling happened, you know, we weren't chased by the the law or um, yeah, yeah There was you know, we were pretty organized and um, we kept no gunfights. No nothing out. Yeah Right and and jim is very thorough bloke and uh, you know, I remember I've watched a little bit of your previous one and You know talking about scattering the the leaves in the morning, you know We would we would always We call it a watering moon, you know The early phase of the moon was always the one you wanted to be watering in because we in the summer We would take turns. We didn't both need to go in, you know, especially the first year when we only had the one garden Second year it was more work, but one guy could do it, you know, it was hard Sure, you get that pump go in and um, the Briggs and Stratton and it was roaring, you know And you spent the next four hours blundering around trying to keep the hoses from you know, um Uh spilling over we had a like a little Terrace system, you know with little walls like a bit like a rice paddy in in southeast asia, you know and And anyway the point of all that was that yeah, we would It was great to have the the moon waxing come over the canyon rim We were in a nice east west part that we chose it Um so that we'd have maximum sun, right? But of course it helped also for maximum moonlight and and so The um, you know, the watering was was one guy and um, that was always of course A risk as well, you know, you're on your own down there. You mean anything could happen You get stung by a scorpion you just twist your ankle and you probably couldn't get out for two or three days You know, I mean you wouldn't have died hopefully from a twisted ankle, but you would have been I remember you did a terrible Twist yourself once jimbo too. I remember you were struggling to get out because of that and Anyway, it was it was a great adventure. That's for sure. You know and again, I am It was so beautiful and one of the things I was I remember later on as well was having the um that the water because of the Continued growth and the drought in the southwest jim. You'll maybe know more about this than I because I went to new mexico and you of course stay but the um Huh, there's this gun The creek was so depleted that Guys who went in and used our setup the next couple of years could barely up. There we are That's funny in 1980 roughly and my daughter Who's 48 years old right now? That's amazing. You guys are a good shape. Look at that. We were in super shape Look at jim. Hey, you didn't go cheese. You're going in and out of that canyon man every week You were hard as they say Yeah, you could do some you guys could have been doing some MMA or ultimate fighting back then with that that kind of shape Climate rocks and shit. Yeah Yeah So a question I I do have for you You know jim even just since I've I've met him and slowly become friends and and learn from him I've I've had a lot of synchronicities in my life just weird little occurrences like weird um Things just keep falling in place with different people just that never really happened would never really fall together Did you did he influence your life spiritually or anything at all? You know, yeah, absolutely. Uh I I'm not a particularly I I was coming from the cynical skeptical world of of An urban environment london UK is very very atheist like I've noticed that like watching the tv program It's common to be atheist there or isn't the u.s. It's not, you know Yeah, no, I I am still a very much an atheist. Oh my yeah I don't think that the frankly religion Has done more good than harm in the world I'd argue we could debate that for a long while But absolute I think what jim reminded and the experience reminded me of was was I'd left home at 18 to go to the cities, you know It was a farm boy and it brought back to me and again. This is in the book The value if you will of wilderness and and I'm become more of an animist because of that, you know, I I don't follow the I I don't even frankly have a lot of time for the The eastern religions that have come into and and jim gave me some of that I would say But not in any kind of a conventional way. Do I think I think a lot of the a lot of the popularity of the western religions buddhism and hinduism and everything Um, and jim and I may disagree on this, but you know, I think it's it's very superficial in so many ways You know, especially in your state, I would argue, you know, california, you know, there's a lot yeah parts of Bollocks pardon me, you know, I mean everly hills buddhists or kind of Yeah, please, you know, you know, it's just they just grab the the the cool side of it. Oh, it's peaceful I mean, there's nothing wrong with meditating. That's a great thing to do But you know, you don't study also the the four noble truths and samsara and and you know, I tried it I I meditated up here and did the slow walking and everything and tried to get into it I got older looking for some answers, but I've In answer to your question, I think that my spirituality lies in the natural world This is perhaps isn't very original, but you know, that's my and and those two years in that canyon Absolutely, you know built that into me much more took me back to my years growing up on a farm But also the the feeling that there's if there is any power out there it comes in The natural world trees the the creek the the stones even, you know, that that's what I believe it's maybe Fascinating because like, you know, um through my own Journey in life, um, I've gone from so much as like someone who was really into satanism because I started off catholic So of course as a young punk rock kid that's like 12 13 I immediately get into satanism because it's like the complete opposite, right? Like just what is the opposite of what I my parents like is that what can make my parents mad, right? Right, but after a while I got, you know, of course very as I got older and into into science and botany I got more into atheism and logic and reasoning and Over time I've just kind of especially with plants learning from plants being around plants so long I've I've come to realize and I don't know how much it makes sense because I've never really got I've never really vibed with like the whole hippie like mother earth type thing But I think that's probably closest to what I believe now as an adult That that there's a lot more conscious on this earth than we have any clue just because it doesn't have a brain Does it necessarily mean it can't communicate and communication is key like to all living beings in life? And I have just kind of come to a similar conclusion in that If there is something existing, it's probably very natural and been here among us as in the plants the the actual earth And that's where a lot of this energy is probably coming from as best I can tell You know as a human who can't have any answers It seems to make the most sense to me after interacting with all these plants and how much they've changed my life for the better Sure No, no, I agree more and to me there's a great deal more logic in the life force if you will coming From this this this natural world that's been going for what? What's the big bang 13 billion years ago? Yeah, yeah a lot more sense than that Then then then believing that somebody walked out of off a mountain with some tablets with some rules on them You know, I mean that's to me. That's just nonsense and uh, yeah very human very human created Yeah, I was 15 and I was still missing Oh, that's right, huh Well, what do they say who is it says if god uh, uh, if god hadn't existed man would have invented it, right? Yeah, right? I mean I mean, it's obviously You know, when were you born matt once your era when how old are you 1981 so at the end of 1981 i'm 41 Oh, wow, okay. Yeah Yeah, we're both 70. Are you 72 now jim? Two weeks two weeks What when's your birth did you 13th 13th? Yeah, I didn't know that you got the old man to cough it up Well, you know also When you sleep next to a creek and and hear it in the sound at night in the wilderness and In the stars were as bright as you can ever imagine you'd have to go Very few places in america today To be away from the city lights in the town that was near us was Hundreds of people so it there was no light for many many many miles right tens and tens and twenties of miles And listening to the sound of a creek flowing by for a year or two The time that you go every week. It's just so Healing it's a healing thing My book starts with a with a with a with a poem that was translated by gary snider, you know that name the um the poet anyway it's I walk for thousands of you anyway, it's a long story, but it's it ends up i'll sleep by the creek and purify my ears That's um, it's it's from the cold mountain poems of the of the I think 8th century And shan yeah, it's in yeah, that's how I opened the book So that was what got us so that you know to get back to your thoughts about The experience and and everything it it was so Lovely being down there and I never felt like Even if they had discovered us down there The chances of them, you know, I And jim and I discussed it, you know that they would probably wait for us to hike out with something that they could get You know, they wouldn't stake out the garden because You know travel down there just to get you in they know you're gonna come back out Exactly and um, you know and would they and if we were down there and we had at least You know a chance we could get away from those guys probably, you know, I mean Yeah, and they don't know what you have down there as far as it could have been uh, You know cartel with weapons not actually a cartel But you know what I mean people with weapons anything so yeah, they would definitely wait for you guys to come out Loan pass Right. Well in the nearby canyon jim. There was a there was a cartel that went to work there, didn't they and they always Were were packing heat weren't they? Much longer after us, I mean Recent years in in the 2000s. I was it as late as Yeah, but also we had day packs But today people call bug out bags or for for me it was like I think my nickname was a parachute So if we knew people were coming down into the canyon were above us or something crazy um We could go down our canyon Which led to another canyon which led to another canyon and we could it could take a day or two But we could disappear and never be found because we didn't park a car Ever for those two years out there Maybe the first year a little bit But the second year we have people drop us off and pick us up every week because it was too Risky because like I mentioned earlier the guys in the canyon next to us They parked a truck week after week there and eventually the rancher Called the forest service. They checked the plates and what do you know? They're from geron Which was the hippie capital? So they just waited till they came out and took everything home to geron and showed up at their house and got So Well, I was going to say that was another thing that um, you know, we we were One of a better term we were pretty rigorous about it We were professional about it and mostly because jim insisted. I'd say hey, we can drive the hell out there Not always but you know that we would have a few back and forth because who wants to hike another three miles, you know and So when we did leave cars, we would leave them a long way away, you know and and make that extra effort to get in there, you know And and then as jim says the second year when we really have We doubled our yield. I think we doubled our size because we we took another we made another garden the second year and But anyway, sorry you were going to ask something that so one thing that I know people are going to want me to ask before we finish up and I it it Someone asked if you guys ever saw ufos in the sky out there and those clear clear nights Well, no, I I didn't jim's got some other stories that he might tell I do remember the satellites that were mostly north to south back then and that's 40 odd years ago We were the music we were Right, mate. We were kind of intrigued by what the hell they were And until you realize their patterns. Yeah. Yeah, and they also wink in and out with the sun They're only they're reflecting the sun that's gone down behind the horizon, you know, yeah, right, you know And because there's thousands of them now, right? I mean elon musk has got a thousand. Yeah tons So in those days, they were much much less You know well known and so when we I can remember first seeing them and thinking Well, what the hell is that, you know, have you guys seen the starling train yet? The what mate starling train elon musks I there was one one morning I was driving somewhere I was like 5 a.m. And it was pitch black outside Driving in my car and I look up and there was a stream of lights like dots Going across the whole sky And I I stopped my car got out in the middle of the street There's other people stopping their car getting out in the middle of the street It's the first time that anybody's seen starling train yet And everybody's thinking this is a big huge massive ufo because it is just going across the whole sky Yeah, I turned out. Well, I have not seen that but it's crazy when you see it. It's crazy They're geosynchronous and there's over 1500 now So how far apart would they to go around with circumference of the earth? Would that make them? It was I mean it was it stretched across at least half the sky Wow That's how and and there were probably Eight or nine dots throughout that half the sky We saw great meteorites Once I was hiking out to the canyon and I got to the edge of the canyon Near near sunset, you know in the late afternoon And I heard the sound and I looked down and coming up the canyon were Was a jet and an air force jet Hundreds of feet below the rim. I mean he was at treetop But he was flying up the canyon and I just stood there and the the sonic room was massive And at the end of the canyon he just gunned it and shot straight up and out and I was like wow So they were That they were doing training. I I believe you know because the russians were invading afghanistan Yeah around that period Perfect place to fly around like afghanistan. Yeah, they were doing lots of desert training. Yeah flying Yeah, that was practicing parachuting and Yeah, hey, do you know the definition of using the parachute now? Do you know what that definition is? So jim's parachute to get out might mean a little different now Have you ever done a parachute jump? No, I haven't. Yeah You did one in australia. Yeah living down there. I did one. Yeah, that's another story. How long did you live in australia? A year in australia and a year in new zealand each and and then another year in south america and then some time in southeast asia For the bbc Sorry mate. Was that all for the bbc? No, no, that was uh, no it was afterwards After uh, jim and I had our adventure. I came to live in taus. I built a house up here I sold it and then I sailed across the pacific Wow Yeah, what a life. Uh, yeah kind of What a life. I mean, that's my dream and sailing and just getting out just doing it, you know Yeah, well, there's a friend of mine just sailed from cabo st. Lucas to tahiti And that's hard work though, you know, blue water sailing, you know the islands of the great thing, you know Because the sailing's fine, but it's exhausting to you never sleep probably and you know on a small boat We were had a 57 foot Catch I think that we were on, you know, and you're just crewing all the time working You get a few hours As they say where I come from and then somebody bashes on the On the on the hatch for you to come and help reef the sails on me. Anyway, so I but it was a great adventure Wonderful adventure all the way down through tahiti and tonga and rara tonga all the um, cook islands They're called and but yeah, I lived down in new zealand in australia and and just wandered around You know and found work in the films while I was there worked on a Worked on a film in in Buenos Aires when I was over that way. Wow. Remember the highlander series with Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah that we did the second one down there on Oh, that's cool. Yeah in Buenos Aires great city. Lovely lovely turn people are loyal to the highlander series. Yeah Yeah One of my guys I'm a location manager, you know, and so I have a crew obviously I work here in new makes I'm still working. I'm doing a thing for It's one of their films. Yeah. Anyway, well, they want to do a mad jag film. That's They're getting those boys. I know the the assistants. I'm gonna give him a book I mean, that's the story like I think of all the all the stories I've seen on on the history of the the genesis of this scene of the cannabis scene and Since I've had mad jag on on these these have been the most popular shows we've ever done like by a large portion So I know that at least our and this is a niche type thing to be this far into genetics and breeding and strains but we have a pretty good size audience for that and Man the amount that they've tuned into just this story Tells me that like that's something that people at netflix should probably take interest in personally Like I know I would be super into seeing that, you know Yeah, you know, obviously that's my hope as well. You know, I just would like to get the story out there before I'm too bloody old, you know and can't can't do much more but um, yeah, and uh I think obviously there's a there's a certain Obviously with the way it's suddenly in a sense could become illegalized at least since colorado colorado was the first I think, right California and then colorado. I wasn't no. No, maybe colorado went fully legal. I thought it was colorado. Yeah, I think you're right I think they went fully legal first. Yeah, they were 10 years ago now. Yeah. Yeah, so so with the You know, I mean in a sense and this is what I say, you know when when jim and I would do in it and Back in those days, obviously, you know, I come from a pretty straight family, you know farming stock and my brothers and sisters who teachers and business folk, you know Even now they're appalled that I did something so so so radical and dangerous. Isn't that awesome though? What's that? Isn't that awesome though? I like to be the one person in your family. It's like the Yeah, yeah, yeah, because the awesome shit. I was always the black sheep, you know, yeah, same here You know, yeah, they even now they would they would they just a drug dealer, you know Yeah, yeah, yeah, you know and yet that's what I love about this legalization that we have in a sense We were vindicated. We were Yeah, absolutely. We were modern-day moonshine as you know, we were doing just what the guys still do in Kentucky in places, I guess absolutely, you know and and yeah, that's I would like to think the story and there are a few marijuana stories out there or smuggling stories, you know, there's the Well blow, you know, what is oh, yeah He just recently passed rest in peace. Boston, george. Yeah, did he really? Yeah, unfortunately and that's cocaine Which in my view is a stupid drug. I he started on cannabis in matten hatton beach as a as a cannabis dealer. Yeah No, I mean cocaine in my view is an absolutely ridiculous. Oh, yeah, no, you know ego drug Or what may ego drug? Yeah, there you go. You feel like god for 20 minutes Then you need another no, it's a drug. Yeah, but marijuana is I don't know I don't go on too much But I think it's um, you know, colorado and all the other states have proven that the system didn't collapse Not everybody's crashing into each other on the freeway. Christ. I remember driving stoned, you know, you do it 25 25 and a 50 Uh, yeah, you drive extra safe You know, you're so You know, and how many people You know, how many alcohol these are all just cliches, but you know, I've seen so many alcoholics in my time and and um, no, it's it's it's proven that it's Essentially armors, but but on that note, I would also say and stop me if I'm talking too much But no is that we should we shouldn't think of it as the panacea You know when we do need to be careful of it because the way you guys You know the way the modern growers are doing it. What do we have jim? What percentage do thc? Did we have in the buds 8 to 12? Roughly if you're lucky, right? And what's it now? Some say up to 35 36 40 somewhere in there four times as powerful, you know And that's just the weed not even the extract extracts are at 90 now 99, you know Exactly and and somebody taking that for the first time and getting behind the wheel or Yeah, that would really really screw someone up. Yeah, it's bloody dangerous, you know, we can't and and I think there are a certain also medical Mental issues with it as well. You know, yeah. Yeah some people can't quite handle it, you know There were there were a lot of years where I could not smoke without it triggering anxiety depression Anything like that and and it was just one of those things I had to get used to as far as Like come to the conclusion like my hormones in my body changes. I'm as I get older I can't smoke like I used to like least during those years. I could I it's changed again for whatever reason I can smoke non-stop and Not have that but during those years it was really really triggering stuff And it was not a good time for me to be using it only triggered and made it worse So yeah, it's definitely not that the cure all um, I see I see cbd stores everywhere in california now not just Everywhere I mean in gas stations are selling cbd oil. They're selling cbd CBD joints, you know cbd everything um, delta eight delta 10 specifically what you're extracted from hemp um And a lot of people don't know that the other day I was in a cigarette store and I about because I get pretty autistic with this stuff like when I hear misinformation It makes my face turn red, especially if it's something I'm very passionate about And this this lady was I was waiting to get vape stuff right at the vape It was a vape cigarette store and they sell cigarettes and and cbd and everything there And I I was listening to this lady. She was trying to get real advice real medical advice from a cigarette store guy Right on on what she should be using. He's like, well, you know delta eight delta nine delta 10 They're all made from sativa. So you're pretty safe there and I was just like Why why are you just making it up? Why are you telling this lady medical advice? You know like just sativa might mean one thing to her And whatever she's taking might completely trigger the opposite effect and it could be a really bad Bad situation experience. She may never try cannabis again You know, it may be such a negative experience and then you and then and then it's all because someone gave her bad info You know and and that that ruins it for her for good So yeah, it's just constant around here and and a lot of it. They're selling Chinese sourced CBD and a lot of people don't know the Chinese government was paying their people to grow hemp In mass to leech toxins from the soil in China So a lot of these were these hemp hemp plants were grown to leech toxins from the soil And they're using that sending it over here in mass to use for cbd market for extraction Now I don't I don't know that those metals make it in I don't know but That's not what people think they're getting. They don't understand that and it's 99 percent of the cbd stuff in gas stations Is that Chinese sourced cbd? You know, right? Yeah Well, let's start again to I would say that you know to Get back to this the the sort of increased strength of it now Sure, and you know, I don't think that Impressionable teenagers should should you know, take in too much of this or You know, maybe, you know, I think it's very well proven. It affects. Um, it affects undeveloped Brains right and can cause Was it called emotional arrest? Meaning like a lot of people that start smoking when they're 12 Emotionally tend to stay around that age emotionally, you know, that tends to happen and it's not always it's not everyone So it's not like a a blanket statement, but it can happen Um, and so yeah, like that was one of my things growing up. I had a younger I have two younger brothers And I I was very cognizant that one of my brothers was already smoking pot And I didn't want him to think that I was an advocate Necessarily of it knowing what I did so I had to hide what I did for a living for a long time from him And you know as he got older he thought yeah, you're an idiot. Like why have to do that? Like I was already smoking but at the same time I didn't want him to think that I was Telling him that this is what he should be doing that I think this is cool because I didn't and he's You know, I mean, I'm sure he's he's felt effects from it as he's gotten older Yeah, I mean, I'm still a 12 year old so You know same with Whether you agree that boo should be restricted to 21 or 18 or something. I mean, it's it's the same in a sense You should be mature before you make that decision and um, and I think there's a lot of uh, you know jumping on the bandwagon now about weed and CBD and And I think we need to be cautious as well because it is a Strong drug no doubt about it. I when I first tried some of these edibles, you know Clearly too much. I was Sprawled out for six hours. Yeah. Was that drooling? Yeah. Yeah, they've made me drool. They've made me drool before I had a quite hair of marijuana in the day, you know and yeah Yeah, yeah, so we got to be careful. That's all I think you know and you know They sell this stuff for dogs too like the CBD oil and it reminds me of when the might go when me and my chick met She wasn't smoking anymore. She smoked a lot when she was young, but she hadn't smoked for years And I was like, you know, my friend sent me some CBD oil. She had some back pain. I was like, let's try this But she hadn't had any thc in years And there was a negligible amount of thc and some of these cvd extracts and people don't realize that because it's not done very carefully With some sellers and she took it and she went to hell for at least like, you know, 12 hours. She was in thc hell You know and and and it was a negligible amount, but it's just because it affected her so much She's not used to it and all of a sudden bam. She's taking a an extracted amount even though it was small It's extracted. So, you know, yeah, it's it and that could happen given this to their dogs People are giving this to their kids and they have no clue no clue that that can happen Hey, they're mixing lsd with with weed. You know that, right? How are they doing that? I was like, wait a minute. You can't smoke that. I remember your story now In the 1980s, I there was a number of people who still believe that That would have had when they first smoked weed that was kind of psychedelic and they I one of my magia chronicles is about arastafari and I know In Brooklyn and he sent us out of his house after he had two puffs of scone number one and In the next day told me was very mad that I had given him some lsd in And he had never smoked anything that powerful. He was a Super arastafarian and when we were gone, he told us later that he jobbed in place for 20 minutes He had so much energy. He didn't know what to do. So he just ran in place in his living room That's great. Oh, but there's still some people out in the farm somewhere that believe there's lsd could be put Oh, yeah, I mean look at the the fentanyl craze lately I mean you see this with the the police officers saying that they're absorbing fentanyl through their fingers from powder And like passing out everywhere like people that know like you can't absorb Fentanyl through your fingers unless it's got like some kind of transturbal gel dms. Oh, it doesn't absorb that way Yeah, and and even being a foot away and inhaling a microscopic amount of powder of fentanyl isn't going to kill you or nor need Narcan so it's it's it's we see this today with with the And granted fentanyl is dangerous as hell. There's no doubt about it. I mean people shouldn't be taking this stuff It's it's unregulated. It's you know coming from china Don't take it. Please people not saying you should take it but It's also the it's like the satanic panic of the 80s to me where there are so much Misinformations coming out with these drugs that people are experiencing these psychosomatic effects and it helps spread more fear Now now the cops are passing out. They're so terrified to work with fentanyl and and do these fentanyl arrests They're passing out in fear and and blaming it on overdosing and all this crazy shit and and it's causing more fear and it's just Yeah, fear the unknown is is is something similar. Yeah Yeah, definitely. Definitely yeah So did you guys ever think you would be pioneering an industry that became a multi billion dollar industry That's what I want to know. Did you ever once think that you were pioneering changing anything? Oh, no, we were just filling uh, you know filling a need in a way and the There's a guy who and i lives in costa rica, but he lived up here and um taos for many years and uh He started to talk to me jim knows the story and um, he said yeah, you know, we just sort of got on the weed and He said I lived in um I think it was wisconsin and he said I drove down to arizona once and fetched this weed that somebody was selling God, it was the best you never had and uh I said, oh, yeah, what was it calling? He said oh, it was the mad jag these guys With the labels and um, we could we we got it back to chicago and it was gone in a few hours Anyway, so so we were just You know, we would moonshine us, you know, we were providing um an illicit Product for a market that demanded it right and and and we were in the early days again We talked about it earlier. So, uh, you know, we've it was the Methods that jim had learned and taught me, you know, I mean what did I know and um, you know, I know How to how to pull the males how to how to Get your product superb We were very careful and especially obviously those three or four days, you know We and we we had to dry it down in the can, you know, and we didn't have a Seller or a barn or something So we which drawn lots of um lines into the most shady parts of the of the, um Creekside trees that yeah and And may you know, we took great pride in our product if you will and and jim sent a something into So high times he sent some buds into high times jim on that other Site did you recommended that I book a book up? I see mag, you know of that one mat, right? Yeah Um, the there was a little conversation. I'll send you the link if you're interested The first there's a chapter of the book up on that one on ic mag And um, I don't know. Is that your competition? Anyway. Oh, no. No. No. No. Yeah, definitely Take it out Anyway, um, you know, we got a great write up somebody dug up the guy was saying skunk That wasn't you know, nobody in her to skunk until the 90s or something. He was trying I said, well, no We had it back in 1980. Anyway, you know, we were no, did we think of course it wasn't going to Grow into this industry that it is now, you know, obviously we didn't know it's going to be legal ever, right? Yeah, sure but um, I mean, it's just to maybe close it up I don't know Jim Jims would say but it was there were a couple things. It was the adventure. Yeah, it was the the the the the the not What's the word tipping your nose at authority and yeah, that that was it part of it, you know, and uh And the excellent seed that we had that grew this marvelous the skunk was one thing I've never been that fond of that, you know, I like this that's the fever was so Yeah So energizing, you know, and and as I say we'd smoke it in the morning. I don't know what, you know We'll just be lying around wasting a day. But no, you you could get out. I mean, I don't know if you Could um, fully operate in a job. I said Smoke marijuana and be any good on a film set. But yeah, I could certainly um, you know Run around and chase football and um or play tennis I remember when I lived in LA we would go playing paddle tennis. Anyway, you would have a tough thing You know, I I do all these sober myself I can't I can never do an interview stone not even a little bit No, my memory call sucks during any time when I'm even a little bit stone So I've done every single one of these completely sober. That's weird. Me too. I have Oh, yeah, I totally Yeah, no, it has that dissociative quality to it that I there's the word I was you know, you it's perfect for Yeah, hiking or making love. Yeah, right? Yeah, there are things that it's good for and there are things that it's lousy for, you know, and Working outside in the garden Working outside in the garden. Yeah, you know doing sort of physical things but but holding a conversation about Proust or you know, you know, you know, you're not going to hold it up unless You know, in fact, I remember recording You know in my mind Conversations that I had when I was in Jerome with people and you know, a lot of them were just very Digressive very, you know, nobody you don't stay on track so well it. Yeah, it's it's the same as A lot of drugs, you know, you should take them recreationally and enjoy it for that, you know Just like being in the pub and drinking three or four pints by the end you're full of Life and joking and yeah morning. You feel like shit. Yeah exactly marijuana doesn't seem to have quite the same hangover No, not for me. Nothing like it once you're used to it. Yeah No, especially not once you're used to it I remember early on being like feeling like I was dragging a bit the next day, but that went away so fast This is so fast. Well edibles Yeah, well, that's a different story. I've had that I've had that lag days days upon some of the malawi carbs I've made and You the next day you wake up and you're still as high as you were the day Yeah, that's that carb you gave me. Holy shit. He says take a peas pea size or something This is a only about five or six years ago and I was on my way up somewhere to work and I think I stopped in Durango night And talk about being absolutely blitzed for the evening barely able to order a meal let alone hold a conversation Funny, I don't think that's a good outcome. And then stone as a dog the next morning too You know driving through the mountains and going I am stoned 12 hours later. No, that's the wisdom in downtown l.a. Yeah Yeah, imagine on the freeway or something, you know at 80 miles an hour god. Yeah, thank you Or l.a. 10 miles Well, is there anything else you want to get in jim? Well, um not really it's Johnny's covered a good portion and um like he was saying if you go to that other Website the other I'll put it on both screens. I I went I went over um last week and posted a copy of the Robert Clark's handwritten Envelope that the seeds came in. Oh, wow So that he could see that, you know, he put for the for the 1981 season. Yeah. Yeah made in 1980 that one, you know, and yeah, yeah, and I posted some thoughts about that also was that It was odd That they used the the front of the label said, you know Hash plans. Yeah pure afghan. It said repeatedly on that label pure afghan unhybridized I it made me wonder if maybe they started With afghan number one And it was before skunk number one or they were planning on releasing these labels with skunk number I mean with afghan number one, but people said, oh no the skunk number one's way better way better So then they switched and he he sold skunk number one I think they had those labels printed up and then they realized. Oh my god. We have multiple Strains, but we have these nice labels. Let's just use the label and put the on the back. Yeah Yeah, and also There's there's so much detail that we both know From like even the Jerome days when we were growing and we were so Our first year we did quite well Good enough so that we didn't have to work for two dollars an hour Which we did the year before just to get by and It also allowed me The money to buy three thousand skunk number one seeds. Exactly. I have to say thank you to high times because That's how I found Robert Clark Reading some of his articles in there. Yeah, and I wrote to the to the I wrote to him Via high times they said if you want to talk to the author or whatever and then he he wrote me directly Or it's called somehow we connected and it was um I realized then that by having the most potent most famous seed Um at that time it would be to our benefit. Oh, yeah Because no one had brought skunk to arizona yet. Yeah, the length of new york city or brooklyn and it turned out to be um Very worthwhile. It was so new at that point It was so skunk was so new when you guys got hold of it You guys were some of the biggest first guys growing it in that in that size for sure Yeah, and we pulled it off. So that made it even better I made history Yeah, all right guys, but this is this is an amazing conversation. Um, is there anything else you want to get in johnny? Just looking back. I uh, you know, uh, jim and I are still Oh still We we we went period to him, you know when I went my way and he went his but it's been It was the adventure of my life. Absolutely. It was and if I may have had a few, you know, and and that was it was um A fabulous time and I'm always grateful to jim for Sort of mentoring me through it, you know, because so many people, you know, I've Thousands obviously tens of thousands of people have grown weed Since, you know in dodgy spots and a lot of them fail, you know, I mean I bet there's a tremendous attrition rate of failure, you know, you know, everybody starts out all full of enthusiasm and Goes out and cuts holes into manzanita. Uh, you know, um, uh Thickets and and and they don't make it. So, you know, I wanted to just thank that, you know, jim was the jim was the man and and I really the For the first year. Anyway, I was just the Just the work in stiff, but it was a fabulous adventure and uh, and I'll never regret it. No, I mean And and and again, we've sort of covered it, but it's nice to have this Vindication now all these years later that You know that marijuana hasn't as You know, most of the republican senators in colorado. Oh, it'll be the death of colorado and everybody's going to be smashing into each other and And sprawling out on the streets and you know, and and the and what I the other thing I'd like to point out which is something that gets me very strongly. I'm an american citizen now, but You know this this this Prison system that we have in this country is um, pardon me. It's a fucking disaster in my view And so the number of people that are languishing in jail for god knows how long For sitting on the porch and smoking a reefer in the evening like anybody else has a glass of scotch or a beer You know is absolutely and it's an indictment of the privatized Um of prison system we have in this country, which is which is an absolute travesty of justice right there with slavery to me privatized systems it is slavery and all the and all the corporations these ugly corporations that That set up these awful prisons and like jim where jim's got a lovely place up in northern new mexico that i've visited In a lot and right. There's a little town called clayton close by and it's classic of what sorry I don't want to go too much about this but you asked me and you know, this this This system where the we the taxpayer pay these corporations to put people in jail And they build them in these shitty rundown little towns like this one's clayton where there's no Business no, you know, it's a dying town. So all the people end up working as guards or cooks or whatever Anyway, and it drives the whole town and and without the privatized prison Then you're driving the whole town out of money and it becomes its own problem Right and the and the city fathers kiss the ass of the exactly people who run it because it's the only trade they've got But but it's driven and how many people are in there for nonviolent crimes, you know Victimless crimes The whole drug thing is it's the the da, you know, we were always joking half-heartedly or in a sense about we're getting caught by the da that that that entire War against drugs has proved to be an absolute Complete fucking waste of taxpayer money billions of dollars wasted billions of dollars value trillions Yeah, people's lives so many lives ruined and they still are, you know with the the violence in mexico and And it's appalling to me that we go on in this country, you know Financing the stupid fight on drugs whereas, you know, if we at least had some more sensible approach and policies for it in america, there wouldn't be the This terrible violence on the border. Anyway, that's my my only concern too is is that Legalization only brings those assholes in the corporate sector Into cannabis to bastardize it more and ruin it from the inside out That's my biggest concern, but it it almost seems inevitable because that's what they do and then you just take it back Yeah, you know, I mean at least at least it's you don't go to jail for it. Exactly. That's like the one The end user can enjoy a calming Yeah, I would say You know pleasant evening without having to worry about, you know, I'm sure Robin is door broken down and Been thrown in jail. You know, I mean, I think at one point there was something like 50 percent of the you know of the Incarcerated population was in there for the drugs nonviolent and victimless crimes And yeah, just because these goddamn corporations and they lobby of course for more draconian laws Oh, sure. Yeah, so so it's a it's a it's a it's a dreadful system. Anyway, you asked me for a last comment That's perfect. That is absolutely perfect. My last comment is that johnny has climbed half dome Oh, shit Half dome. Yeah, that's wild. Yeah I could tell from that shape. You guys wouldn't have a problem climbing half dome at all back then not back then I don't know about now. Yeah My climbing days are done. I got vertigo now. In fact, I'll be brief, but I've just been doing this job up in mower And I was telling jim That um, I have to go to the edges. They want these looked at these overlooks, you know And it's just what we call a plate unit where we shoot a cliff or a canyon and then they drop in all the cgi stuff Well, you know in post and I have to go to the edge of the cliff and I've got this. Anyway, I've got vertigo now. So I don't my climbing days are done. I feel like I'm gonna There's a sort of there's a magnet pulling me off and I sometimes either lie down With the camera Well, I appreciate you coming on the show I appreciate jim for having you come on because this is a tale that's kind of worked its way through our show And and it's an absolute honor to speak with someone who is one of the pioneers of uh Of our scene. So thank you very much for your contributions Well, I defer to the expert and I was just the I was just a muscle but uh, we were we went our own path our own ways for many years But now we're friends and do stuff together. So it's really nice. Um, I'm glad you could come on today, johnny All right, my pleasure matt the pleasure to meet you and if I may I'll send you some links and some photos Can't get enough of vintage strains. Go check out the collab. We just did riot seeds and suck lord One of new york's premier toy makers. Uh, we have a resin cast toy one out of 27 Only 27 made exclusive to our uh, to our customers for the first seven days. So go check it out Uh, link's gonna be in the description. Go show him some support You know, it was like it was like I was connected with everything around me All of a sudden I just started questioning everything I'd ever been told You know by the time by the time I got high that very first time When it started to hit me And I'm like, well I got high