 In this episode of Mind Pump, we talk all about the differences between low-fat and low-carb diets. If you're trying to get leaner especially, you've probably heard of both approaches. The low-fat diet was all the rage for decades and then it was all about low-carb. Now we have kind of this debate, which one is better at burning body fat? Which one is better for athletic performance? Which one is better for health? So we break it down. We break down both diets. All things being equal. Which one is better for athletic performance? Strength? Which one is better for dieting? Which one is going to get you to lose more body fat? What do they look like? What are the foods within each of these diets? You're going to love this conversation. Also if you want to come see Mind Pump live, we have a few tickets left for the Mind Pump live event on March 7th at 11 a.m. This is in, I believe it's in Columbus, Ohio. Here's what you got to do. Go to mindpumplive.com and sign up. We have some general admission tickets left and we have some VIP plus tickets left. By the way, the VIP plus includes a private dinner with Adam, Justin, myself and Doug. We're going to hang out, answer any of your questions. We're going to give you free maps super bundle with a bunch of programs in there. You're going to get a swag bag. You're going to get a Viori outfit. You're going to get some Magic Spoon. This event is sponsored by Viori, which is the makers of amazing athleisure wear and Magic Spoon, the makers of the cereal that's in very high protein, great macro profile. Also before the episode starts, Maps Split, our advanced body part training program is 50% off. If you want to build muscle, sculpt your body, shape your body. If you're somebody with some moderate experience in the gym and you want to take it to the next level, this is a phenomenal program to follow. It's a bodybuilding inspired workout routine, great for developing the arms, the shoulders, the back, the butt and the legs, and of course the rest of the body. Here's how you get the 50% off discount for that. Go to mapssplit.com. That's M-A-P-S-S-P-L-I-T.com and use the code Split50. That's S-P-L-I-T-5-0, no space for the discount. Actually watching Paul's debate with the lawyer or the ex-judge on the doctors, I think strikes up a great conversation, Sal, that you wanted to have. And that was talking about whether or not you should do low carb or low fat, since people make an argument and a case for both of those. I think we should kind of dive into the pros and cons of both of them and give our brain our own war. Absolutely. And someone listening might be thinking, well, why low carb and low fat, why aren't we talking about protein here? And you can. You can definitely have that discussion around protein. But the two reasons why I think it's low carb and low fat are, one, the traditional ways of dieting through restricting a macronutrient has either been low fat or low carb. Up until now, there really hasn't been a push for a low protein type diet, although I'm waiting for it, because I think that's the next available macronutrient that someone's going to say that you need to have reduced. But here's the second reason. The second reason is because a high protein diet benefits people regardless of their goals. The studies seem to show that whether or not you want to burn body fat, build muscle, increase athletic performance, improve cognitive function, whatever, a relatively high protein diet seems to benefit everyone. Where you start to see the differences really lies in the manipulation of carbs and fats. That's where you start to see some studies show low fats that does this better, some studies show low carb does this better. And in terms of personal preference, but of course, at the end of the day, there's always that individual variance where neither one of these may work for you, may want to have a moderate intake of either one. But I mean, early on when I first became a trainer back in, was it 1997 when I first became a personal trainer? Low fat. Yeah. And before, right? It was all about low fat. Yeah. Fat was actually a strongly. That was a bad guy. It was demonized. Everything was, everything with fat was bad. Fat was bad across the board. It was blamed for every chronic illness. It was blamed for obesity, diabetes. It was blamed for Margarine was cancer. Yeah. It was the best option. I mean, don't you remember as a kid, at least I remember as a kid when you first, the first time you heard proteins, fat and carbs. My assumption was that fat made you fat. Yes. Yeah. It just, it makes sense, right? Fat and fat. Right. If you don't have any understanding, no nutrition background at this time in my life, I don't remember how young I was, but I was young enough to be smart enough to understand, to look at labels or macronutrients and understand like, okay, what a protein carb fat is to a point, to a certain point, but not enough to really understand that fat doesn't make me fat. It just seemed like that made logical sense. And what I always try and remind myself when I'm coaching clients or working with people is, you know, if you hadn't, you had cared nothing about nutrition and you have a profession and something completely different that you love your passion about and you spend all your time, you know, we forget sometimes the, the level of, of knowledge of the average consumer that's, that's getting this information or reading this. And then you have the fitness side who is overly educated in this space and then knows how to use things like this to market and manipulate a message so they can sell whatever. And that I didn't learn until way later in life and really getting into the fitness space that I understand like, oh man, so much of these diets and ideas of eating are really all based around marketing and sales. There's, there's, there's very little of it that's great research done to save the world. It's more, oh wow, we can make a case in point why this has been official. We could take a study. We could take some science and now let's run with it and create a thing. And that thing is normally a new space or new market to, to make money. Now the big low fat push in the US really kicked off late 60s, 70s and didn't start to really take off until about the 80s. And this was because of a report that was produced because we were noticing climbing rates and trends of heart disease in modern societies. And so governments, US government being one of them said, hey, we need to fund some research to figure out why this is happening. And they did, they did some research, terrible research, if you look at the actual research being done, they excluded other countries that didn't fit this model. But the research came out and said, oh, it's fat and in particular saturated fat, that's bad for you. And so we were told to completely reduce our intake of fat. And then like you say, Adam, dietary fat, body fat, they're named the same thing. It sounds kind of easy, right? Fat also is very calorically dense. One gram of fat has more calories than one gram of protein or one gram of carbs. So it all kind of made sense of it. What's funny though, is before that the, the traditional ways of dieting, if you go beyond that before that, because people have been dieting or eating in ways to lose weight or to become more trim for quite a long time, the original ways of doing it was to cut out starches and sugars. That was what, that's what they used to recommend. If you look at old, like really old advertisements for diets, it was like, don't eat sugar, don't eat, don't eat breads, don't eat starches and lose weight. The irony in that is that's older wisdom and probably better for the majority. It might be, right? We'll get into that. Let's talk about that. And then later on, what happened is you had decades of us getting hammered with low fat. People were not getting skinnier. The obesity rate was still climbing. Heart disease diabetes still going through the roof. It had showed no signs of slowing down. Even though we were eating less fat, even though there were more low fat products than ever on the market, people were still getting fatter. And it was the perfect, perfect storm for somebody to come out and say, hold on a second, you know all that fat that they said that was bad for you? Eat as much of it as you want. It's the carbs that are bad. And that's when Atkins exploded, totally took off. Do you guys remember when Atkins hit the scene? Well, originally it was in the 70s. First time, yes. But do you guys remember when it hit in like late 90s? The resurgence of it. Yes. Yes. Big time. And when he, he came out and said, oh no, all that advice you were getting you heard was wrong. This is actually the cause of, of us being overweight. And he had his own science to support whatever, but it was perfect storm because we had already been indoctrinated for decades. It's not working. Now someone comes and hears us what we want to hear. Oh, what do you mean? Well, we're also indoctrinated with, you know, our cholesterol numbers being like the most important metric that, you know, we need to lower this. And like every time you go to a doctor visit, they're looking at, you know, the cholesterol intake and those numbers need to get rid of this fat in your diet. It's, it's evil. Well, it wasn't until, I mean, pot, uh, mind pump was already going. It was, I want to believe, I want to say it was year one or year two when we shared this on the podcast, when the American Heart Association had to recant what they had been saying about dietary cholesterol affecting cholesterol for so many years. That wasn't up until just recently. Did they, they play as a much bigger factor. So for a very long time, we've always connected, oh, high fat, high cholesterol, high cholesterol in your body and, and dangerous for your heart. And it wasn't until just four years ago did the American Heart Association have to take that out and recant what they said. Oh, egg sales declined dramatically for a while because eggs are very high in cholesterol plus the yolk has fatness. Everybody was eating egg whites. Red meat sales declined. Everybody started consuming other white meats. In fact, one of the, the, it was a huge advertising strategy. Do you remember that for pork? Oh, the other white meat, the other white meat chicken sales popular chicken sales went through the roof. But none of it was working. People were still getting fatter and sicker and none of it was working at all. Even though the, now people had success. Some people had success going low carb just like there were some people that had success going low fat. Here's the one thing that they both hadn't common. They were low calorie. All those diets. Well, that's what's in common with all diets. All diets, any diet, always the underlying thing. Yeah. If you read, if you read between the lines on the, the zone diet, the Atkins diet, all that, when you, when you calculate, calculate out what the total calories ends up being for the foods that they're telling you to eat, they all are low. Totally. They're all based off of low calorie. Absolutely. That's how you guarantee they're going to have success. Yeah. That's right. You know, follow this diet. And then we know if we, if you really keep your calories around 1500, you're going to lose weight. That's right. And in the context of low calories, makes a big difference in terms of how your body reacts to the foods that you eat as well. So for example, a high sugar, high calorie diet, terrible for a higher sugar, low calorie diet, not nearly as bad for you as for your health. Not nearly as bad. A high saturated fat, high calorie diet can have some detrimental effects. A high saturated fat, lower calorie diet doesn't seem to have nearly the negative effects. And in fact, may actually in some cases show protective effects. So calories make a big difference for your health, but they also, of course, come in when it comes to body fat makes a big difference. You can't gain body fat if your calories are lower than you're burning. In fact, you'll lose weight every single time. So all diets have this in common. Low calories being the most important number one thing. And then everything else kind of follows. So in my experience as a trainer, you know, and there are benefits and detriments to low carb and low fat based on your performance goals and a lot of stuff. But at the end of the day, it always boils down to whichever one the person, the client preferred to follow. If they're both low calorie, if you eat a 2000 calorie lower carb diet or 2000 calorie lower fat diet, and you're burning, you know, 3000 calories day, they're both going to equate to about the same amount of body fat loss. Yeah. The real game is which one is sustainable for your lifestyle. Well, it also, there's other things that matter too. Like I have you guys ever noticed those sometimes when you get somebody who has been running a low fat, like how many times you've got this client who's been running a low fat diet for a long time, maybe they're in decent aesthetic shape too. But hormonally, they're off or they have hair or skin issues. They have things like that that foods that tend to come in higher fat sources are providing certain nutrients for said body. And that person has been low for so long that they're seeing deficiencies elsewhere, although their body fat percentage, that would be a concern of mine at being an essential macronutrient, you know, that's one of those like the carbohydrate side, you know, you got to kind of build up a more of a case of the relevance of intake and carbohydrates versus like proteins and fat, those are essential. So how do we work that in fat? And that's why I wanted to bring this up because fat tends to be one of the number one things that I actually include and tell people to bump up. Because I even though the this what we're talking about is kind of old news. It's not old news for a lot of people. If you were an eighties baby and you grew up around that time hearing all those messages and now you're an adult and you're in your busy and you got things going, you still remember all that that messaging. And so then you go to dieting. And one of the first things you do is oh, cut out all the high fit. I switch over from having things like tri tip and rib eyes. Now I'm having leaner cuts or I'm doing all white meat, like you said. And right away, they get rid of the oils, get rid of butter. That's kind of like the old way of cutting calories in your diet is just to cut all those high fat things. And then all of a sudden I have got a, you know, a client who I'm working with who's 135 pounds. And she's eating 30 grams of fat every single day, which is really low. And for months and years of eating that low, you start to see things with hair, skin, hormonal issues because of this. That's right. You bring up a good point because you can define low carb and low fat can be defined totally different. Low carb can be as low as zero. You can have no carbs, zero every single day. And you can be totally fine. Carbohydrates are not essential for any bodily function, hormone production. They're not essential. You don't need to consume carbohydrates. Now it doesn't mean it's not preferable to consume them. For some people, I think they are, it is preferable to consume carbs. It just means you don't need to consume them. Now fat essential, if you eat zero fat, zero grams every single day, you will get sick. You will get problems. And eventually you can die because you have to consume them. So that's an important distinction between the two. And this is why this is, you need to know that this is why this one is my least favorite strategy to lose weight. I absolutely hate low, because I think the messaging hasn't got around the other way and people don't realize how detrimental it can be and how good you feel when you eat higher fat foods. I mean, you talk about some of the benefits, like, you know, one of the things that I like showing clients is that, man, when you eat a avocado or a little olive oil or enjoy butter, some of those, watch how satiating it is and how great it tastes. So there's a lot of benefits to having a higher fat. So fat is actually one of the things I almost always when assessing a diet, I end up having to increase in most people. There's very few, unless you have somebody who I'm coaching, right? Of course it matters, everyone's different. And they have just, they eat McDonald's three times a day and they're eating a lot of processed garbage. You're just reducing it. Right, right. And those people tend to take in a higher concentration of saturated fat in the diet. And I'm looking for healthy dietary fats like your avocados, your butters, your olive oils, things like that. For the most part, those people tend to under consume on that. And I've got to address that. It's one of the first, even people that are overweight and trying to lose weight, more often than not, it's not due to overly ridiculous amount of fat unless they were like a major fast foodie. Yeah, we'll get into, let's get into the benefits and the detriments of each one so people can kind of figure it out for themselves. But before we do, if you want to know which one will make you burn the most body fat, besides the individual factor, which one you're going to stick to, which one works better for you type of deal. If the studies are clear, neither one burns more body fat. Now, low carb loses more weight than low fat, but not more body fat. And the weight loss that you get from low carb has to do with the fluid, you're holding less water in your body. Carbohydrates turn into glycogen, which stores more water in your body. So going low carb on the scale, you may actually notice more pounds coming down, but when they go in and they check body fat percentage, body fat percentage is equal. So it's really at the end of the day, down to calories, both of them can be equally effective at burning body fat so long as everything else is controlled. All right, so some of the benefits, Adam, you touched on the first one. I agree. Some of the benefits of low carb dieting, it is more satiating. In my opinion, you mean low carb, low fat? I mean, low fat. Yeah. No, low carb, low carb is more satiating. Oh, you're going to start with low, low carb and all the, all the positives. Yeah. Yeah. I think you're going to stick with all fat and then talk about that. Well, low carb is higher fat, right? Right. So the low carb diet, okay. So when we say low carb, low fat, that means that the opposite one is high. So low carb means carbohydrates are low, fat is higher. Low fat means fat is low, carbs are higher. So a low carb diet is a higher fat diet by default. And it is more satiating for more people in my experience. Yeah. I've trained lots and lots of people. And one of the number one things that you need to tackle with nutrition is overeating. It is somebody wanting to eat more food. And my experience, if you're constantly starving and craving food, it's really hard thing to control over time. And a high fat, low carb diet seems to control that much better and more people. In fact, I have clients come to me on low carb, higher fat diets and they tell me they can't eat as much as I'm telling them, even though it's still in a caloric deficit. I noticed it for myself. I, you know, when I eat low carb, higher fat, I just don't, I'm not as hungry. And I think that's a huge plus. You're satisfied. Yeah. Yeah. I think, again, it's like an empty pit the other way around, like for me, like if I have, if I'm higher on carbohydrates, like I just have this need to, to then like I get more snacky, I feel like more cravings are involved with that versus like when I'm loading up my fat a bit more, I, the cravings tend to sort of, you know, go away. And that's definitely a benefit for me, my clients. 100%. One of my favorite strategies when helping somebody out. So again, I track, see what's going on with their week. Super common thing for most people, Saturday and Sunday, you work hard during the week, right? You're consistent with your job, you, you bring your meals to work, you do all in your busy, you get your workouts in Saturday and Sunday, you let your hair down a little bit, sleep in maybe a little bit, watch cartoons in the morning, Sunday, maybe you're sitting around at church or having Sunday fun day. So I, and this is when normally a lot of the bad behaviors are one of my favorite strategies to when I'm manipulating somebody's diet is actually to have them eat a higher fat low carb diet and have them focus on that on the weekends because I know they're going to be more sedentary, more often than not, they won't need as much carbs and fuel. And because I know they're being sedentary too, I'm concerned about them doing snacky type foods, chips and things like that. And then then just consuming like crazy. And I don't tell them what I'm doing. I just say, Hey, for this weekend, bump your fats up to this, reduce your carbs to that. So they have it like just a little weekend goal for them. So they're not like Adam saying I can or can't have something. It's just, Oh, this is our weekend goal to increase up my fats this way. Then after the fact, I coached to it. And then I explained, like, this is why I did this to you. How did you feel? That's why we use that strategy. Notice how much easier it was for you to not binge on things or not snack like you normally would do because I gave you those targets. That's how I like to use low carb, low fat type of diets is teaching like that. So same here. When I hit palate fatigue, much faster with a high fat meal than I do with a high carb meal, high carb meals for me personally, I can keep going. I can even after I feel full bloated or whatever. With a high fat meal, it's like I get sick of the food. I can't, I can't really do anymore. And then I'm not hungry for a longer period of time. This is the experience with my clients as well, where again, I would put people on a restricted calorie recommendation because they're trying to get leaner. And when I would have them eat lower carb, higher fat. Sometimes people come up to me and say, Hey, I can't eat this much. And it's still a deficit. It's still in the deficit. When I would do a lower fat, higher carb diet. I wouldn't hear that nearly as much. The appetite tends to be a little higher. You don't hit palate fatigue as much. Now the studies do show that protein produces the most satiety. Fat is up there with protein. It's not quite, it doesn't produce satiety quite as much, but it's still up there. And this is why I love fatty meats as a recommendation. Enjoy a nice tri-tip every once in a while. Have a ribeye. Have something that's juicy and fatty and high in protein, high in fat. And you feel amazing afterwards for hours later and you don't feel like you need it. And to your point, I could have a pizza. As a matter of fact, I had pizza with my nephew after his game. And I had four slices of that. And it's like 30 minutes later, I'm like ready to eat more. And the size of those four slices of pizza, I mean, that's when I first was eating it would feel the same as if I was eating like a ribeye steak. I know what I'd feel like though, after a big ribeye steak, I'm good for the next four hours fine. And I've found that with clients, it's the same thing. And so it's a great strategy. Here's the thing that I always take into consideration whenever talking about diets. It's like all diets are made up. There's such an individual variance with so many people. So I'm always looking at the psychology behind all of it too. Like how, behaviors, what do I know about certain, when people eat a certain way, what are the most common behaviors? And when you've had enough people that you've tried all this on, because I've tried every diet you could think of with clients and paid attention to how they respond, their results, how long do they maintain it? Are they happy while they do it? I've paid attention to that stuff for many, many years. And then you start to realize that the psychological part is as important, if not, way more important than the science that supports, oh, why I should go low carb or oh, why I should go low fat. It's okay. How is this client that I'm dealing with right now going to respond with this? Here's the little disclaimer with the satiety effects of low carb, higher fat diet. It's easily overridden as soon as you eat carbs. So what I mean by that is when I have someone eating low carb, high fat, so long as they stay low carb, high fat, their appetites tend to be, by the way, it's not true across the board. I've had clients where this doesn't satisfy their appetite or whatever. But generally speaking, so long as they stay on that protocol, it's not an issue. As soon as they go off and start snacking, oh boy, the reverse is novelty. And not only that, but it actually it's, it gets real bad. I've seen people go so opposite because they had a weekend where they started snacking on chips and that palatability kicks in and now they're not just high fat, low carb, they're high fat, high carb. That is such a good point. This is why I'm not a fan of the ketogenic diet and the carnivore diet for most people because I know that most people are not going to stick with it for the rest of their life. And what you don't realize happens if you were somebody who was a popcorn eater, chip eater, love ice cream all the time, snack on sweets, you eat carbs, carbs, carbs all the time and you're used to that and you want to make a change in your life. And so you hear that the ketogenic diet or now the carnivore diet, which is really popular, people are having all this success and all the science to support how great is you want to try it. Oh, okay. You may try it and see tip toeing incredible results for a set amount of time that you follow it. But the rebound effect when you fall off is way worse had you not diet dieted with a more balanced diet because you get the body adapted, you become fat adaptive, right? So now the body starts to use ketones instead of using glucose, right? It's not getting any more carbohydrate source. So then it adapts, gets efficient to then do that. Then all of a sudden you fall off your diet three months later and you go bananas over the weekend and then you're going bananas over the weekend ends up harming you more than it had it would have harmed you had you dieted more with a more balanced diet. Yeah. So I mean, it's definitely more produces more satiety so long as you stay on it, you start to go off and then it's like a it's like a floodgate and your appetite goes through the roof. The second benefit of a lower carb, higher fat diet is it tends to be better for people with gut health issues. And this I think has more to do with the fact that there are more food intolerances in plants and grains than you tend to find in, you know, animals and in fats. So for example, if you take it when I would work with clients with gut issues, aside from dairy, it was typically things like gluten and peanuts and starches that would cause the bloating and the distention and the digestive issues, cutting carbs. Oftentimes you find that they feel much better in terms of the gut issues. And then, you know, we had Dr. Becky Campbell on, she said, yeah, that could be a sign of SIBA, which is quite common in people with gut issues is that they eat carbs and it messes up their gut. Definitely. So in my experience, when I work with people with gut issues, low carb, more often than not is a better better diet for them in terms of their gut. I think part of that too is the psychological part that it plays to you mentioned earlier about the carbs and how so your body pairs water with carbohydrates for every three grams of carbohydrates, you intake your body holds on to three ounces of water. So if you're somebody who already has inflammation already has an intolerance to a certain food, say maybe it has it is some sort of gluten or carbohydrate, you intake it, not only do you feel the inflammation effects or maybe it upset your stomach that in addition to that, you're also holding on to an extra, you know, half a gallon of water on your body. So you feel extra blow and water retention. So I think there's that part of that role that why people feel so much better isn't just for what it may potentially be doing intolerance wise for them. But even just what it does psychologically, because there's something to be said about, you know, if you do hold on to a lot of water like that, how people think it's their fatter, like that's one of the things I constantly have to speak to it when people see fluctuations in their weight up and down. They always think it's a direct reflect of their diet being on or off. It's like not necessarily right in your in your gut bacteria that breaks down carbohydrates does produce more gases. So you'll notice even if you're healthy, no food intolerances, eating a low carb diet, just your stomach just feels doesn't feel as full. It doesn't feel as if it doesn't blow out nearly as much and that has more to do with the bacteria, even if you're perfectly healthy. Here's another benefit with a low carb high fat diet. Studies show it may be better for cognition, especially for people with impaired cognition. So especially for people as they age as their brain isn't operating like it used to, especially when you go really low carb and high fat, like more of a ketogenic type diet where the ketones are high studies show beneficial cognitive effects on people with dementia, Alzheimer's and other cognitive type of declining disorders. And some people who don't even have those issues, I've had quite a few clients tell me I can think sharper since I've eliminated or reduced carbohydrates out of my diet. I tend to be one of those people, not always, but if I start to get a little foggy, cutting carbs and bumping fats, I start to feel a little bit sharper. And again, the studies support this a little bit. So this is a relatively new research that came out about Alzheimer's, right? In terms of like using ketones then to help to prevent. There's DOM, right? Well, there's new research, but it's also been old observations. So they've observed it's one of the first medical interventions for disease was fasting. So, you know, thousands of years ago, these practitioners noticed, you know, here comes a person who's having all these ailments. If I fast them and take away food, then it goes away. The problem with that is eventually you have to eat again. So later on, they discovered the ketogenic diet. And because they figured out that it was the lack of glucose that was causing, you know, some of these problems go away, namely epilepsy, that's a big one. It was a first treatment for epilepsy. But they also find cognitive disorders. Well, I remember when we all went ketogenic for that, you know, however many months we were all running the diet like years ago when at first was getting popular. For sure. I think feeling satiated was number one, like big thing that I noticed as far as benefits that I got that was most beneficial for me. And then second was the cognitive function. I could just, we felt, I felt more clear and sharper on the podcast. Now that being said, I also noticed that exact same effect when I'm fasted. Yeah. So it's less that I, the low carb so much is just me not taking in it. You're just getting into ketosis. It's really, it was the ketones and they show this that the mitochondria, the powerhouses of the cells operate better off of ketones, a cleaner burning energy. And a lot of cognitive decline, some scientists say is a result of the brain becoming in just not being able to utilize glucose well or work with insulin well. Some scientists would call things like Alzheimer's type three diabetes. So maybe some of the cognitive decline we're noticing is because our bodies aren't utilizing glucose very well. So eliminate the glucose or lower it, bump up the ketones. Now we feel sharper. I personally feel sharper eating a low carb, higher fat diet. If I know we're going to do like a big event, or I'm going to do a speaking engagement or a podcast, I eat that way because I feel sharper. I feel like I'm faster with my thinking. I don't, I don't have to search for words as often. That's my own personal experience. I've heard lots of people say that. And again, the evidence shows that at least for people with cognitive decline, a lower carb, higher fat diet seems to be a little better for most of them. The second one would be diabetes. Low carb diets might be better for the prevention of diabetes. And I think that's kind of obvious. Your, your, your bodies, you know, your insulin level spike after you eat sugar and carbohydrates, and they don't spike as much when you eat fats and proteins. And so it seems like it makes perfect sense, right? A low carb diet maintains insulin sensitivity increases insulin sensitivity. So for people with your who have maybe diabetes in their family, you might be better off. Yes. You might be better off reducing your carbohydrates, bumping your fat up and eating that way. Although there are, I've seen a couple of studies that show that a low calorie, low fat diet works well for diabetes as well. But again, like we said at the beginning of the episode, the low calorie context, right, makes a big difference, makes a huge difference. Oh, that's everything. Now, how do, how do each of you guys personally, because there, I find that I use low carb, low fat, I do carb cycling. I mean, I use all different, I use fasting occasionally. So I think it would be valuable to hear how each of you utilize the tool. You understand, you understand the science, you understand the psychological benefits and drawbacks of low carb, low fat. Now, how do you individually use it or how do you use it with clients? Well, it depends on the person, it depends on who I'm working with. And we're going to get into some of the bet, detriments and benefits of both. But I mean, if I have an athlete, they're not going to go low carb. If I have somebody who's really interested in putting on size, I'm not going to go, you know, low carb. For me personally, because my, my job requires, you know, I need to be sharp. I need to be good on the mics or whatever. I tend to lean more towards, towards the lower carb, tend to not have the higher carb in my diet. It really depends a lot on those types of things. Yeah, digestive issues, things like that. I'm considering all of that, especially in my own diet and performance, just speaking and not being as active as I used to be as well. So that's something that I'm, I'm definitely playing with the amount of carbs I'm introducing in my diet a lot. And then also fasting occasionally to just, just regain that sort of, you know, clarity and also like allow for, you know, my metabolism and everything to kind of get a break. So I can kind of like, you know, help my digestive process on its own. Right, right, right. Now, okay. So let's get right into some of the drawbacks of low carb. I mentioned one of them. It's not great for strength or most athletic performance. This is unequivocally true. Okay. So I know people like to debate. Oh, no, there's study. No, it's, there's tons of studies have been done on this. And if you want maximum athletic performance for most sports, not all sports, most sports where you need to be explosive, have power and strength, you'll do better eating carbohydrates. I gotta say something about that too, because I know with the carnivore diet and with a lot of these other diets, like even maybe the, you know, the ketogenic diet, there's been some athletes that have claimed their energy just spiked through the roof. And now they're getting all these PRs and all like my, I suspect that they might have had an underlying issue, you know, gut wise that, that, you know, they're fighting internally, which then now this, this made them healthier as a result, which then, you know, bled into their performance. Well, I think that annoys me just as much as the, the, the vegan documentary of the strong man promoting, you know, a vegan diet because they broke records now that they've done that. And it's the same exact thing. So I think that's, and I think we're very fair, the way we are that way. Like both of them are being zealots. Like you're not somebody, because you are, are low carb, the studies are very conclusive that it's not ideal for performance. This is a reason why the paleo diet has felt fallen in a favor for the crossfitters. Right. That was the, the original diet everybody was eating when, when CrossFit first started, just started to happen. And then enough people under, read the studies and the research. Well, they just felt better. They're like, oh, if I eat some sweet potato and some rice, I'm going to hit new PR. I have accessible energy. Yeah. Wow. But look, at the end of the day, the diet that makes you healthy is going to be better than a diet that makes you unhealthy, even if the unhealthy diet is the one that all the studies support. And sometimes you're right, you run into that. Like you look at, uh, you know, like, uh, McKayla Peterson is a good example of this. Joe Rogan now went, Carnivore said he felt better, said his, his, uh, his autoimmune issues started to decline. Well, that's probably because, uh, he needed to be a little healthier and that diet provided that for him. But across the board, generally speaking, if you're fine with either, carbs are going to give you better performance than fats. Hands down. Now there is a, there is a, an exception. Endurance. Yeah. Low level, long duration, uh, type of endurance. Zach Bitter. Yeah. He's a great example, right? He's a fat adapted athlete. I experienced this myself. I remember, uh, it was a, maybe four years ago, um, Jessica and I went on a, uh, a trip and the goal was to drive from, you know, San Jose all the way up to corda lane. So we had to go through Oregon and Washington and, and on the way we would stop at different places and go camping or whatever. Anyway, the one of the first stops was the Lake Tahoe. And at this time I was really, really deep keto ketogenic diet. Uh, it was working for my gut issues. I felt healthiest on it. Um, I had almost no carbohydrates in my diet. We get to Lake Tahoe. Uh, we had to get there early and the, and we had to kayak to our camping spot and I was fasted. So my ketone levels were very, very high. Had no glycogen or minimal glycogen in my body, no carbohydrates. We get in the kayaks and we start kayaking and it's at a low to moderate intensity. I'm not sprinting, but I'm definitely going and we got lost. We ended up kayaking for something like seven hours trying to find this spot. And I felt perfectly fine. Now had you had me try to max out my strength and mats out my explosiveness, I would not have done very well, but I would just going, going, going. I noticed this great low level type of stamina. Um, ketones, the energies you get from fats that you burn when you're not using carbohydrates are great for that. So if you're an athlete, that's like you want to do like a long distance, slow run or swim ketogenic diet may actually be perfectly fine. Now that being said, I, I believe, and I know Zach Bitter does this, but I believe most of these athletes that tout being ketogenic or carnivore and their endurance, they actually utilize carbohydrates during the event. They'll supplement. Exactly. They, they, and what, what's so brilliant about that is they've become so fat adaptive because that's the only way they eat their entire training process. But then when it comes to race day where they've got to go for five, six, 10 hours of nitrous. Exactly. Then they, they shoot some of that, you know, 30 grams, not much like 2030. Yeah. 20, 30 grams of carbs in their mouth is like rocket fuel for them because they become so adaptive fat. Now they get this flood of glucose. So most even the people that seen the benefits for endurance running or endurance sports from being fat adapted or running a high fat, no carb type of diet, still utilize carbohydrates. And that's a brilliant way to do it. It is. It's a very smart way. But at the end of the day, again, you may, the impacts you'll have on athletic performance have more to do with the explosive athletic type performance and strength. That's what I'm way stronger when I eat carbohydrates in my max lifts. I don't notice it as much when I go hiking. Like I don't notice a big difference when I do that kind of stuff. Sprinting, I'll notice a big difference. Here's the deal. Low carb diets also not good for bulking or trying to put on a lot of size and muscle. It's hard. It's really hard to bulk on a low carb, high fat diet. I have not, I've, I've, I think out of all the clients that have ever helped bulk, I've had maybe one or two that did well on a low carb bulking protocol. I, uh, being somebody who typically does better low carb, I still can't bulk well on a low carb diet. It's just too satiating. I get too, I can't eat enough. Um, and, and when I work out, I don't get the same pumps. I don't get the same volume. That part kind of sucks on the low carb. That's a really good point too about low carb. That's a, that's a drawback and especially for somebody who's in no understands, if you're in the competitive world and you compete and you, you manipulate, uh, carbs, you've felt this before when you go low carb, how awful your workouts and even the psychological part, it doesn't feel just awful because of how, uh, physical, you know, the, the physiology you're, how tired and weak you are. It's also the mental fuck because if you're somebody who is used to seeing your muscle bellies all filled up with fluid, you get that, what they call flat look because you have no carbs. You have no glucose in your muscles and your body's not holding on to all this extra water in your muscles that it normally would be. It's harder to get the feedback. Like if, if I'm training a client and I'm trying to get them to connect and feel their glutes in an exercise, for example, the pump is an amazing feedback. All of a sudden they're like, Oh my God, I feel my glutes are getting a pump or, wow, I feel that in my lats. When you're low carb, that's hard. It's like we're connecting, we're pushing, whatever, but you're not getting the feedback of the pump and the pump helps you connect. It really does. If I have a pump in a muscle, I can squeeze and contract and connect the hell out of it. If I don't have a pump, I have to think a little harder and really search for that connection a little bit hard, a little bit more. So the bad pumps is another drawback of the low carb diet. The big, here's the, here's one of the biggest drawbacks is for me personally. It's not as convenient. It just really isn't. You go try and find snacks and shit you can buy that you can eat really easily on a low carb diet. There's, what do you got? Jerky and nuts. I can't think of too much cheese. Yeah, maybe some eggs. Yeah, there's not much, there's not much in the, in the, in terms of convenience. So if you're like on a road trip or whatever, you're with your friends hanging out, watching the game and you're low carb, it's like, I'll have the macadamia nuts. You know, you know, what else? That's the part that I found going to the keto genetic diet that I hated the most was just the inconvenience and the blah of the same thing. I mean, you cut out, you cut out a macronutrient like that. It's especially a dominant one in our space or in the food in general, it's really tough to have variety in the diet. You end up eating like the same. I felt myself eating like the same five or six foods all the time. Yes, yes, totally. No, it's not. It's not nearly as fun. And, you know, when you want to, you want convenience, a lot of the variety is in these carbohydrate, maybe plant-based type foods. The low carb, it's really tough. Even in the low carb processed foods are typically not that great. And they're not really that low carb. Often they'll say low carb, but they're not really low carb enough to taste like cardboard. Yeah, it's just, now here's another one. If we were to map out a, you know, 3,000 calorie or 2,000 calorie diet and compare the cost of going low carb, higher fat versus the cost of going low fat, higher carb, a low carb diet is more expensive. It just is. It costs more money. You're eating more meats. You're eating more, you know, maybe some cheese is more nuts. Macadamia nuts are great low carb foods. Super expensive. Yeah. It's like $9. Yeah. Fat and protein is expensive. Very expensive. Carbs very cheap. It is. Carbs can be very inexpensive. So if you're like a college student and you're trying to eat on a budget, low carb, you know, higher fat, it could definitely be much more of an expensive. I mean, they've gotten better these days, but yeah, that's still the case. I mean, protein is always going to be, you know, a little bit more expensive. Well, you could go buy a 10 pound bag of rice or oatmeal and have enough carbs, have enough carbs for your entire month. They're almost giving it away for free. Yeah. Yeah. Carbs are really, yeah. Show me, show me, you know, a month supply of fat that costs as little as a month supply of carbs. Right. You can live off ramen for like five cents. That's right. That's right. All right. And are you guys, can you guys think of any more drawbacks? I think that's... No, those are the first ones that come to mind. Yeah. All right. Let's get into the benefits of low fat. So now we're talking about low fat diet. What are some of the benefits of it? The first one that comes to mind is that it's, when you want to lower your cholesterol, total cholesterol number, low fat diets for some people seem to be superior. Now, both diets can lower cholesterol if they're low calorie, but there are some people who have really high cholesterol numbers and I've worked with these people and we can switch around the fat, we can have the calories or whatever, and they just, their body just produces way too much cholesterol when their fat intake is high and having them on a lower fat diet just gave them better. Now, are these outliers? Because I've heard that dietary cholesterol really doesn't have that big impact on overall cholesterol numbers. It's not the dietary cholesterol as much as this just a total fat. Fat intake can affect cholesterol. Saturated fat is the big one, right? Saturated fat has a positive, you know, in terms of raising the number of cholesterol in your diet more than I think almost anything else. And some people just, they just need a lower fat diet. I've worked with these people before and we've done, we did everything and their number was still kind of high. Now personally, for me, it wasn't anything that I think they should be worried about, but their doctor still told them, no, I think we want to get the numbers lower. And once they dropped the fat, the cholesterol kind of, kind of lowered down. This has to be pretty rare though, because I, everybody I ever, that had high cholesterol, the moment I put them on a diet period, low calorie, and we send, build muscle, almost immediate change. That's like one of the first things I could show a difference. And it was, it was rare that, in fact, the few rare cases where, you know, my adjustments were not showing a big results. And it is my clients that lied to me that we're over consuming still were the ones that like, maybe they made some different food choices, but they were still were overeating and not, and they were not following the calorie restriction. So I've only found that I haven't found somebody where, oh my God, we're in a clerk deficit. I know for sure consistently. And they're still seeing high numbers. No, you're right. It's a subset of people. It's a, but those people don't get their cholesterol numbers in the, whatever, what we would consider healthy range, unless they go lower fat. Now here's the other part though. You want to raise your HDL, you do that with fat. So raising the HDL seems to be better with a lower carb, higher fat diet. But again, if you're in that subset of people, whose cholesterol levels are not responding well to a low calorie, low carb diet, you might need to go low fat. That's a sign that that's probably a better diet for you. We talked about athletic performance, carbs. If you're dieting and you're cutting calories, as long as you get your essential fats and your protein is high, you want carbs. You definitely want carbs. You definitely want it. It was an interesting thing though to think back about carbs for me as an athlete, I thought like it was just all fair game. And it was just about like loading carbs on top of all the carbs that you're already eating to then give you better performance, which was not the case. Not only that, I was fatigued and had like mental fog and had to realize that no, like me actually abstaining from carbs and then like cycling them back on game day made a massive increase in my performance. Yeah, definitely. Well, this is what best resembles. Like we get asked a lot like, what are you guys following or what diet you want? And I'm not right now, I'm not competitive, so I'm not tracking and paying close attention like I used to, but I have general things that I do. And one of the general things that I do with low fat or low carb is I base it off of what my day is probably going to look like. So if I have a day, like let's say like Sunday, right, a football day, if you looked at my, I used rice paper wontons, I did ground turkey, I did a pork shoulder, I did real, real high, high fat protein type diet, low carbohydrate. Why? Because I'm sitting watching football all day long. I don't need very much carbs to power me through sitting down watching the watching football, no real exercise other than like low level stuff, like cleaning house and so that so that that I just naturally try to gravitate towards those type of meals on a day like that. Then I have a day like today where I want to get after my lifts, I've got squats ahead of me, like I'm going to let carbohydrates work around my a lot or larger amount of carbohydrates to work around my workout both before and afterwards. Yeah, I remember you saying when you were competitive, when you were competing as a physique professional physique competitor, you when you were bulking or building, you used to say you needed X amount of carbs before your lift. I remember there was like a number. Yeah, no, I could I could tell that was one of the fun things about competing and actually weighing, measuring, tracking, everything I did is I got to a point where I could tell like, oh, when I had 150 grams or more of carbohydrates before my one o'clock workout, it was like guaranteed to have a great lift, great pump, great energy felt strong. If I went into that workout with anything less than 100, I could see it. I could see how much harder that workout was for me. I was weaker at a hard time motivating myself. The pump was worse. So all that, I could totally and I got it down to that size. Now, those numbers have changed for me because I'm way more sensitive to carbohydrates now. So now if I have 50 to 100 grams before a workout, that's a nice amount of carbohydrates because my calorie intake is way low. My body is way more used to getting higher fats and lower carbohydrates. I rarely run over 250 grams of carbs where when I was competing, I was pushing 600 grams of carbs a day on a regular day. So, but yeah, that's, I mean, that's how I use that. Like, I want to, and that's how I try and teach. I try and educate my, my client on the benefits of low carb, on the benefits of low fat, and then how do we learn how to, to understand those benefits and then also psychologically the benefits and drawbacks of those. Now, how do we integrate both of them in your, in your everyday because I think there's value to both of them. And I think both of them can lead to major drawbacks consistently only doing like anyone I know that runs, tries to run a ketogenic diet for a really long period of time, goes, ends up happening what you, the point you made, Sal, you fall off the wagon and then you, you over consume my crazy anybody that I've known, even if you've had aesthetically, you've done well on low fat for long periods of time. Then I see things hormonally, skin, hair issues like that because sure they've maintained not putting body fat on, but they've been lacking in nutrients for so long that they're seeing deficiencies. Oh, I mean, I remember I went, I was low carb for a very, very long time. And then I started introducing carbs into my diet and man, my workouts were insane. My strength went to the roof. I had the most insane pumps. It was easier to put on muscle. I, that's, you know, if I'm going to, if I'm going to pack on muscle, if I'm going to contest and I need to get strong and pack on muscle, I am not going low carb. I am going to eat my carbohydrates. And if I'm trying to diet and get lean, but still maintain lots of strength and performance, I'm going to cut my fat before I'm going to cut my carbs. Now I'm not going to go below essential fat. That's stupid. Remember we talked about how you need essential fats, but I'm not going to go bottom out carbohydrates if I want to maximize my performance. And that was, I think those are some of the main benefits of, you know, going lower fat. And also when you cut fat, that's an easy way to cut a lot of calories. Really is. I mean, if you're, if you're just talking about pure calories, right? If you cut 10 grams of fat out of your diet, that's 90 calories, you cut 10 grams of carbs. That's 40, 40. You have to cut more than twice as many grams of carbohydrates out of your diet to equal the same amount of calories that you get from cutting fat. So I got to be careful combining them. Yeah, definitely. It'll add up quick. Definitely. So it's an easy way to cut, to cut calories. And then we talked about earlier, it's less expensive. You know, you could fuel, you could feed yourself with a lower fat diet with way less money than you could with a lower carb diet. And for some people, that's a very big plus, especially if you're bulking. If you're bulking and you're trying to consume 4,000 calories a day. Oh my gosh, a 4,000 calorie a day diet that's low in carbs and high in fat. That's an expensive, that's an expensive ass diet. Oh yeah. You do that with carbs. And like you said, Adam, you got some good organic white rice, good quality, and you're paying, you know, for, you know, a dollar or a serving or less for it and you're getting nice meals out of it. So it's phenomenal for bulking. Let's talk about some of the drawbacks of the low fat diet. We talked about the appetite for some people that's a drawback, for some people that's a plus, you're trying to bulk. That's a good thing. You're trying to get leaner. That's a bad thing. It can definitely cause gut issues in people. Here's one that may cause problems. Too low of fat intake has been tied to low testosterone levels. This actually been shown in men. When they get their carbs, excuse me, they're fat too low because fats are essential and they're a part of the hormone making process. Their testosterone levels tend to drop. Now to be fair, any low calorie diet for too long can cause that. Even a low carb, high fat diet, if the calories are low, too low for a long period of time, we can start to see some negative hormone changes. But it seems to be stronger with a low fat diet. And I think that has to do with the fact that the fats are essential and they're what's used to turn into hormones or they're part of the process. And then of course, high fat foods can contain cholesterol. Cholesterol may have a connection to testosterone. Another drawback that I find kind of comical now because I think we all probably had moms who fed us a stack of pancakes and syrup and a bowl of cereal or whatever on big test day or whatever, you know what I'm saying? Or a glass of orange juice, a stack of pancakes, syrup all over. Like the picture of the cereal commercials where there's no different than cake. Even in the name. They were giving me cake for breakfast. But that was right. That was kind of the go to. And then you'd be in class and you're like nodding off. Right. You're tired. So that's the one of the drawbacks of high carb is I would get the brain fog, get the crashes. So that you have the spikes when the carbs are hitting really well. And then when they come back down, the crashes seem to be hard. That was one of my favorite things about the higher fat type of diet. And it makes sense when we talk about all the studies that support endurance athletes for high fat is I noticed it just being an average person. I just felt like I have this nice consistent energy all day. Plum or even. Right. It's even. Maybe I don't feel the peaks for performance. Like when I go to the gym and I'll feel like, yeah, let's go hit it with carbs. I do. When I get, if I time my carbs just right, I go into my workout. I feel amazing. But the drawback is high carb like that also causes the high drop pretty hard. So then I'm like want this mid afternoon nap after I had that amazing spike in the middle day. So that's one of the drawbacks. So what do you, what's the consensus for between us for the average person generally speaking, generally speaking, if somebody's going to cut their calories, what do you guys think what's a, what tends to be a better approach for someone for the average person to reduce their carbs or reduce their fat? Yeah, only because like the majority of people are trying to lose weight and lose body fat. I would say, yeah, like lowering down your carbohydrate intake. And most people are not like trying to become athletic, you know, champions. Most people are like, it's just a smaller subset of people. Yeah, I want to get more fit. I want to build some muscle. I'm not trying to go crazy with my strength and performance. I need just consistent energy throughout the day and I need to maintain my weight. I'm sedentary. I would agree for, for more often than not, a lower carb diet would be what I would recommend. Most people, so I prefer a balance even, right, of fat and carbohydrates when I, but most people when I assess a diet, almost always I have to reduce carbohydrates, increase fats. It's just, I think, again, I think we're still in that era of, you know, fat was making us fat. And so, and it's the easy go to for the points that you make about how high a calorie is, that as soon as someone decides they're on a quote unquote diet or they're going to be eating better, you know, oils, butters, greasy foods, kind of the first place that everybody are fast food, they kind of carve off. And then their, their fat intake drops to the floor, but then their carbon take is still high sugars, especially like sugar is almost the, the number one thing that I, and I, that's no, I actually address sugar before I address even carbs by myself. So I actually don't even, I don't even tell them, oh, you can't have more carbs. I go, let's look at your sugar. And I actually want to reduce that. And so I, I know it's not uncommon to see people consuming, you know, 70, 80 grams of sugar in a day. Oh, very. Yeah, super, super calm. Yes, very, very. And, you know, if that was all coming from fruit, not a big, not a big deal, but never they're eating, they're eating and the fruit choices they even make, I even start to change. Like I always try and tend to push clients when I'm trying to manipulate their sugar intake of the carbs to, you know, berries, blueberries, backberries, raspberries, strawberries, all these berries, lower in calorie, higher in oxygen, higher fiber, lower glycemic, just the benefits of those versus bananas, which we love apples. These are the ones that are higher in sugar, lower in, yeah, those things have just less value, even though it's fruit and it is, I love melons, quote unquote, good for you. And we also have to remember this, and this is why I love like sharing this with clients like one banana today does not look like a banana in, you know, 1870. Oh, no, we've engineered, we've raised plants to become carbohydrates. Impressive banana. You can get a banana at a grocery store right now, no joke. Okay. If you actually do this, the next time you guys have a banana, put it on the scale and actually weigh it, then go to it, go look up what it is. You can get easily get a banana that has 50 to 75 grams of sugar and one banana. And it's funny because when you would, when you look up the nutrition facts on bananas, they're like small to medium banana. You're like, Oh, it doesn't exist anymore. They don't exist. They're all these huge giant banana cucumber size bananas that are just pat, you're absolutely right. And I'm not saying that bananas are bad. I want to make that clear too. Cause if that was all of your sugar and carbohydrate intake today, you'd probably be fine to account for it. Right. Exactly. You just have to account for it and understand that there's, there's better. But so, you know, long story of explaining what do I like? I prefer a balance. I want my clients to eat an even amount of carbs as far as calories, not the grams, cause we know the grams are different. An even amount of calories coming from fat, even amount of calories coming from carbohydrates. And then I like to coach and manipulate those like I was telling you guys is I know the some days are lower. Right. Some days I know the behaviors that people tend to do on weekends are all, if I'm communicating like a good coach, sugar client, I know what my clients are doing this weekend, like this Super Bowl weekend, I gave specific goals for people because it's the Super Bowl and I know they're going to be sitting down watching it. So I know that. And so then I'll have them manipulate fat or carbs for that day and show them how to learn how to benefit and do that. Cause what I have found when you're not paying attention and you just do what you want to do, we tend to gravitate towards the worst choice. When, you know, when you sit down and you, when you watch television, that is like the worst time to be in taking all of this carbohydrates. That's when we do it most often. When you decide to avoid all the, the carb process type foods is when you're moving around all day at work and you're busy and you're dialed in on your routine. And that's actually the time that you could probably get away with some of those. And I like to, I like to have people alternate because it more mimics real life anyway. Right. You know, I don't want you to get so stuck on a particular macro recommendation that you avoid a whole group of foods for so long that then it becomes a binge desire. You know, I like to let people have those types of foods in their diet. Today is a lower carb day. Tomorrow is a lower fat day because it allows me to wide variety and doesn't produce that psychological phenomenon where it's like, Oh my God, and I can never have carbs. And the second I go off, I go way off or, Oh no, I can never have fat. And then I go way off. It just mimics real life a little bit better. There's that dirt. I would say generally speaking, for me, lower carb is better for most people. If I'm training athletes, it's higher carb, especially if they're high performing athletes, it's higher carb. If I someone's trying to bulk and gain muscle and size, I'm going to have them eat more carbohydrates. If they're trying to get leaner, I tend to cut carbohydrates, but I also tend, I like to cycle them like you said, Adam, but at the end of the day, the diet that makes you feel the best that you could stick to the longest that makes you the healthiest is going to be the best. And so you may be an athlete listening right now, and you may be best on a low carb diet, or you may be someone who trying to get lean who does better on a lower fat diet. Totally fine. So at the end of the day, you have to listen to your body. But generally speaking, I think that what we said is Yeah, I think it's important though that because right now the ketogenic and carnivore diet is making a surge sure that the something I want to reiterate what you said, because I think it's so important is whichever diet that you can be consistent with, it's going to be the one that you're most successful with. And one of the most appealing things about the carnivore diet, the ketogenic diet is the simplicity of the things especially carnivore. Right. It's so simple. Like what do I eat? You just eat fucking meat all day long. That's all you eat. It's that simple just avoid everything else. Now that's fine. And I know there's people that are promoting it that are having success with it. And I do believe there's definitely some huge benefits for the general population because of the behavioral things we talk about around carbs and diabetes and yada, yada, yada. But the question you have to ask yourself is, is this something I could see myself doing for the rest of my life? And if you can honestly say that, yeah, you know what? I didn't really, I don't care to ever have cake or chips or any popcorn or any of those things ever fruit or vegetables or any of those things ever again. I actually love meat that much. And I'd only want to eat forever like that. Then 100%, I think that that's probably a great strategy for you. But for most people, you need to really think about that long and hard before you step into any diet. Is this something that I can do? Because the repercussions when you come out of it are worse. Have you just eaten the way you were and just restricted calories? It's always a rebound. It's always a really big strong reversal and rebound because you've been so restricted in one direction for so long. And look, if you really want to learn your body and you want to learn how to read your body, which is more important. So learning how to read your body is more important than learning your body because you can learn your body now and your body could change in five years, your circumstances can. But if you learn how to read your body, well now you know how to feed yourself as you go through life, as you age, as your goals change, as your circumstances change. Now the best way to learn how to read your body is to eat a wide variety of food. Is to experiment with lower carb, lower fat, different options of foods, fasting, eating the morning, eating at night. Because then you can understand how to feed your body when you want to feel a particular way or you have to have a particular goal or what your body needs and what it doesn't need. But do that with different intentions, right? Most people do a low carb, low fat, with the intentions of losing weight on the scale or whatever. Don't ignore those and pay attention if you've never run a low carb diet before, or a low carb diet for three to four weeks. During that time, you're not paying attention, even though maybe your goal is fat loss, who cares about that right now? Pay attention to your workout performance, your mood, your energy throughout the day, your sex drive, all these other things that are markers that your body is trying to respond to you, that it agrees with you. And see how you like that. And that's how you learn about your body. Don't just attach which one is easier for you to restrict calories and lose body fat. Because then all you're going to learn is, oh, this one I lose weight and this one I lose weight less. And you're not learning any of the other potential benefits that you could get from eating. 100%. And with that, go to mindpumpfree.com and download our guides, books and resources. They're all totally free. We have fat loss resources there. We have resources for building muscle for training particular body parts. We have a guide on there for personal trainers. If you want to become a trainer and you have a lot of questions, how do I become one? What do I do to become successful? There's a personal trainer guide there. They're all totally free. We did this as a way to pay back our audience for their wonderful loyalty. Again, it's at mindpumpfree.com. You can also find the three of us on Instagram. You can find Justin at mindpump. Justin, you can find Adam at mind pump. Adam and me at mind pump. So