 Yo, what's up everybody? 10 o'clock, I'm in my office at home and we're gonna talk a little bit about stress and anxiety. This is that thing though where I can't see who is watching. Facebook is not showing me, it should. I'm gonna give it a minute for everybody to catch up. Mm-mm, oh, you know what I'm gonna do? I'm gonna check it out on my phone. That's what I'm gonna do. Oh, there we go. Hey, Donna. Okay, now it's showing me, everybody. So that's good. Just give me a minute. I'm gonna wait for the rest of the folks to kind of wander on in. How you doing tonight, Donna? Let's see, is it too, I have a fan running over there. I don't know how loud it's gonna be. Hopefully it's not too loud. 10 o'clock, Eastern, it was a last minute decision, sorry. What are you gonna do? Next time I'll plan a little bit more ahead of time and actually at some point we're probably gonna do one. I'm gonna talk to Holly and we'll maybe do one like a Saturday morning or Saturday afternoon where it's okay. It's early afternoon, our time in the US and Holly is like six hours ahead of us where she lives. So we'll do one together, we'll do live. A few people have asked for that. All right, I'm looking at, I can't see who's here. I see four or five people, but I guess we'll get cooking anyway and everybody can kind of join in as they go. I guess if you're watching, just use the comments and say hi so I know you're there because I can't tell who's here. Does it let me see? It doesn't let me see. So anyway, what I wanted to talk about tonight was the topic of stress and what happens when you're like stressed and you're dealing with anxiety. What up, Ben? My buddy Ben, Ben and I go back many years with this stuff. So yeah, when you're dealing with stress, high levels of stress, I'll just kind of relate my experience over the past couple of months, couple of weeks really especially, but I just have a lot going on. There's a tremendous amount going on in like every aspect of my life and especially the last week or so. Hey, Jeff, last week or so, it's just kind of stress upon stress upon stress just kind of piling up and it can take its toll. So I'm feeling it, I'm not immune to feeling stress. And I think what winds up happening for people like us is when we feel stress, sometimes that stress can manifest as fear. And I know many years ago, I wrote a blog post about that. I don't know where that is, but maybe I'll put it back up somewhere. And I talked about when stress becomes fear and the difference between stress for just somebody that doesn't deal with anxiety or panic type issues and people like us, is that often that stress can manifest as fear. So I'll kind of tell you that this afternoon, I wound up, people ask me all the time that I still feel anxiety. Yeah, I definitely do on a regular basis. I just don't let it kind of rule my life anymore, except, and then people also asked, do I have panic attacks? And the answer to that is yes, I can, you know, I have panic attacks now and then. So this afternoon, I actually had one. We had snow today and I was shoveling snow, which, you know, makes sense. My heart rate went up and everything. And honestly, this was a little different type of panic attack for me, but it was full-blown boom where it flashes really quickly. And I think it was really just a physical expression of stress, like I said, stress upon stress upon stress piles up. Then I get out and I'm shoveling snow, which is something that I really didn't want to do. The snow was kind of pissing me off and bam, there it was. So I had to drive to my office, which is where I was headed, like kind of in a full-blown panic. And I should have actually recorded that. Hey, what's up, guys? All right, Levi is here. Kim, how's it going? Kathleen, how's it going, Kathleen? So yes, I even experienced the panic attack because I had to do them while driving to work. And I think next time that happens, I'll try and video so you guys can see what it looks like for me. But, you know, I think it was really a stress response. So, you know, for folks like us, often when we're super stressed, it can really start to manifest this fear. And when we're extra stressed, we may have more of a tendency to start letting the anxiety run away with us. So I don't know, those of you who are here, oh, I can kind of see just about everybody now, which is kind of cool. Yeah, if you're stressed, you know, how does it show up for you? So if you wanna, anyone wanna chime in, you know, with comments, that's fine. But what can tend to happen is the stress, like I said, can manifest this fear. And then any of those anxiety symptoms and sensations that you're dealing with get magnified and it becomes much harder to deal with the, oh my God, thoughts, and you start engaging in that irrational inner dialogue with yourself. And, you know, it's a little rough. And stress can make it harder. So somebody actually mentioned, oh, Donna, oh, Donna, you're cutting in and out, how the video. Is anybody else having video problems? Seems pretty smooth for me, but I can't really tell. So yeah, I guess your anxiety symptoms, hey Laura, what's going on? Laura popped in. Yeah, so anxiety symptoms, physical sensations can be magnified by stress. And then since the stress can kind of morph into fear, we begin to fear those symptoms even more. And, you know, it can get a little bit ugly sometimes. So, you know, it's really something to be aware of. Levi says, it gets super irritable and cranky when stressed. Ah-ha, yeah, I usually crave junk food. Well, that's a good topic for a minute or two. Like, you know, some people, I think when you see a change in your habits too, that can often, you know, be an indicator that your stress, sometimes we're stressed and we don't even realize it. So if you, some people don't want to eat when they get stressed, some people, all they want to do is eat when they get stressed. So paying attention to changes in your behavior, you know, sleep issues, and let's talk about sleep per second too, kind of rambling a little bit, but let's talk about stress causes great anger in me, Jeff. I can relate to that to a certain extent, definitely. That's a thing. But so sleep patterns, the things you want to eat and drink. I see Kim talking about drinking comms me. If you're likely to maybe turn to medications or even, you know, things like smoking or whatever it may be, you got to pay attention to that a little bit. Like, are you turning towards certain things that you normally wouldn't turn to? That could be an indicator that you're dealing with stress. When your anxiety symptoms, you know, just get really magnified and they're hard to deal with, that could be a little bit difficult as well. So, Jeff, the stress causes great anger that's a good point. I can relate to that. That is something that, I'm sorry, Chief. That's something that I can kind of relate to as anyone's coming in and out. You know, we'll take it two seconds here. Is anybody else, Don is having video problems or I guess she's losing the video. Is anybody else having problems? Can't, it seems okay to me. I can't tell. I can put it on my phone, but I'll do that. My feet is fine. Thank you, Levi. Yeah, I think that could be happened. Yeah, I see people coming in and out and I'm not really sure. Next time, maybe I'll just plug in the ethernet as opposed to using wireless, but my connection's pretty solid. So, dare turn me towards anxiety. Yeah, it might be in our neck of the woods, Donna. Oh, okay. Dizziness, Billy, how you doing, Billy? Yes, we talked before. Laura's having a problem with video. Good. So, I'm seeing anger. Jeff talked about anger. I can relate to that. I tend to have that, hey, Ann is here. What's up, Ann? I can relate to the anger thing. I have a short fuse as it is and sometimes when I'm super stressed that that will ratchet up for me too and it can express this anger. And for me, I can relate that what really helps in a big way is regular exercise. I have to get to the gym. I have to lift. Lifting heavy is a real stress reducer for me and that helps take the edge off the anger. So, Jeff, I don't know if that helps you at all but that's what I do to help bring that down a little bit. It doesn't really take the worst stress away completely but when I walk out of the gym, I'm really not thinking about stress and it does dissipate that anger response to a certain extent, which is nice. Let's see here. Jaw clenching. Kathleen, yep, I can relate to that too. I have, I know I used to do that a lot so I would say I got a punching bag over Christmas. Yes, Levi, I have one too. I have a heavy bag hanging in my basement and it's awesome. It doesn't take the place of heavy lifting for me but good, Jeff, you should start going to the gym. Start slow if you've been inactive that could be a thing. So, you should be careful with that. Yes, Donna, it will post as a replay. I'll leave it up on the site, on the page here so you'll be able to watch it. So, that's good. So, jaw clenching and things of that nature whoever mentioned that, muscle tension and jaw clenching, I had to really work a lot on my body language and my posture and make sure that I wasn't doing things like clenching or hunching. I used to crane my neck. I used to do a lot of poking and prodding and that sort of stuff. So, yes, if you're dealing with muscle tension when you're stress ratchet up, one good thing that you can work on is progressive muscle relaxation which teaches you to identify that and then let it go in certain parts of your body. But I try to work on always maintaining like a neutral and a soft body posture so that I don't, when I'm stressed or anxious I don't wind up, you know, I'll tend to stop. Yes, slow is good. Yes, that is true. Jeff, and I'll just to quick, Jeff, if you're gonna start at the gym and you haven't been at the gym for a long time, you haven't been exercising, just be aware that when your heart rate is up and you get the blood pumping, it can start to feel like the symptoms of panic. So, some people have a problem with it. So, just be aware of that going in. It's perfectly fine to do that as long as you're healthy but that could be an issue. Billy, I'm doing more minutes by your advice. Very good, I'm glad that's working out for you. Yeah, time over distance, right? So, Levi, are we supposed to turn towards stress? Like work stress in the same way we face fears? Oh, you know what? That's a really good question. I'm gonna say no. I don't think we should necessarily embrace stress. So, here's the way I kind of see that. That's a really good question. That's a really good question. So, the way you kind of see this is, we could get, hey, Lydia. Lydia's coming in from Toronto. Mira, how are you doing? Nice to have you guys here. So, let's talk about the stress and Levi's question, should we turn toward the stress? Like I always talk about turning toward the anxiety to face it. I think the answer is no, but the chain here for me is when stress level goes up, your anxiety level can go up. So, you do wanna take steps to reduce your stress because we can do that. We can actually do that. And those things can be really quickly. Jessica, how's it going? Thanks for coming by. So, and when you're dealing with stress management things like exercise or meditation, meditation, I highly recommend progressive muscle relaxation. When you find ways to reduce stress, you can reduce your stress level quickly, right away. It's not like when you're trying to overcome your anxiety or panic or agoraphobia and you have to work on those things for weeks or months. So, you can really address the way you handle stress quickly and as part of your daily routine, your daily lifestyle. And I think if you can bring your stress levels down, then you could potentially bring your anxiety levels down. So, I don't think you run toward stress. You do try to find out why you're stressed and either eliminate those things or find ways to dissipate the stress. But when the stress causes anxiety, you do not wanna run from the anxiety. So, that's such a good question and it's an odd answer. Like, no, you don't wanna embrace stress, but you do want to go into the anxiety as opposed to running from it. So, it's a tough one. I think try and manage stress the best way you can. Be aware of it, you know, be aware of it. I think sometimes when we're living in high anxiety situations, we can forget sometimes that there are outside influences. Hey, Missy, how you doing? Thanks for coming by. When we're dealing in high, oh, no problem, Jeff, take care. Good luck, keep us posted. So, when we're in an almost continuous anxiety state, I know some people might be, I know, let's see, let me go back up a little bit. Kim, I know that you are in kind of a bad situation. Right now, it seems to be that your anxiety is running away with you. I notice by your comment. When we're in those situations, sometimes we forget that it's not always just about how we feel inside and what we're causing ourselves. But, you know, there could be outside influences, family and job and money and relationships and all that kind of stuff. So, we should be aware of the things that maybe we can control, right? I think it's important. So, let's see, stress is a silent killer. That's true, Billy. Stress does have a negative impact on our lives. It's a problem. Not to be a weirdo, says Ben. Too late, dude, I'm only kidding. Hey, Barbara. So, let's see. Laura says, anxiety, actually, anyone actually focused less on the anxiety when there was a real stressor? Yes, that's super. That's a really good comment, Laura. Thank you for that. I know that we were, one of the podcasts I was doing in the videos with Billy, maybe a month or two ago, his dad was going through some things and he had to take him to the hospital. And I think he related how when he had to do that, you know, he wasn't really thinking about his anxiety. So, yes, that's true. And I think in a way, when there's a real stressor, like an immediate stressor, you know, if you have kids or something, your kid gets hurt or something happened for bed or you get hurt or there's some big, there's literally a fire, something like that, you get outside of your own head and now you're focusing on that outside stressor, that event that needs to be taken care of right that minute. And once you get out of your own head, curiously, you find that like, hey, I don't remember that I'm so anxious anymore. I'm not afraid of my racing car. That's why distraction, so many people use distraction as a technique. It's not a good long-term overall strategy, but because you can't always distract yourself, but yes, Laura, that's actually a real thing. When there's real stress or real danger or real event that you have to take care of right that minute, suddenly your anxiety takes like a back seat because you're focused outside on that stressor, whatever that is. So Barbara, what does Barbara say? My anxiety and panic have taken over my life lately. That can happen. That can happen. It's important to acknowledge that that can happen and understand why it's happening. That usually means that you're continually focused on how you feel all the time, right? That's a bad strategy. We don't want that to happen. But I get it. Jody, how are you? Oh, Jody related to Billy, I take it. Same last name. Ben, Ben actually said sex is the best stress reliever. That is true. That can go both ways. So we'll talk about that for a quick second. Some people think that stress is a really big sex is a big stress reducer. I would tend to agree. But then there are other times when you are so stressed then you just don't feel like that at all. So both things can happen. That's a really good point. Let's see here. I believe there's a training for catastrophe every day. So when it happens, we're ready. That's a good point. You're right. When we're on alert all the damn time, sometimes we're on alert for nothing though, right? We're just on alert for how we feel. But when we're on alert and ready to act all the time when something actually does happen, bam, we're right there, like Johnny on the spot. My life seems to be going calmly. That's when my panic attacks from missing. That's a good point. And that's because when you have nothing else going on, you can focus inward and now you care about how you feel and what you're thinking all the time. And in a way, hang on a second here, like my snowman mug is very impressive, isn't it? So when your life is quiet, yes, that can happen. That can happen. Because then we focus on ourselves, which is how am I feeling? What am I thinking? Every sensation, every thought in your body. So that's pretty common. Sherry, I'm trying to keep up with the comments. This constant stressful anxiety scares me a long time. What's it doing to my health? That's a good question. And it's kind of debated. I mean, we don't want to bathe in cortisol and stress hormones all the time, but you have to remember that that's not where you want to focus on that. So you're stressed because you're anxious and then the anxiety adds more stress because you're afraid of how you feel and isn't gonna damage your health. So don't get stuck in that. Like, yes, you want to work on it and be able to get out of the anxiety. But there's really no, I wouldn't worry so much that every moment that you're feeling anxious, you're shortening your life or anything like that. Should people with anxiety find lower stress jobs? Levi asked, that's a good question. Let me just scroll through the comments real quick here. Ancest X stresses me out, does it? Yes, very stressful. Jody's my wife, cool. Well, Jody, thank you for hanging in there with Billy. That's really very supportive. I like it. So Levi asked, should people with anxiety find lower stress jobs, at least when dealing with recovery? Okay, I'll relate my own experience. So when I was going through the worst of my stuff, let me think about this. I mean, I've had several times in my life when it's gotten really bad. And when I was dealing with coming off of anti-depressants, I was one of those people that experienced that withdrawal. I know the pharmaceutical companies hate that, but it took me a good six or eight months to get through that. It was horrific experience for me. And I did, you know, I was working all the time. I was involved at the time I had merged my company with another company. And so I didn't have the luxury of hiding. I would say that actually getting involved and having to work every day and go there and sit there and manage a large network. And it was a technical job and manage people every day was high stress, but I'm happy that I did that. To me, it was good because I went into it as opposed to running from it and having to adapt and do that work while I was going through all that stuff was in the end, the better way. So I don't necessarily think that we should be hiding from high stress jobs. I mean, maybe don't be an air traffic controller. Don't be a brain surgeon maybe, but otherwise I don't hide from life. That's my overall feeling. Scrolling here, let's see here. Yes, everybody likes my mug. Jessica says, I feel like I go one week on normal and next week I'm on a hair trigger. Is it possible to have legit problems with your adrenal system? That's kind of stress related. So I'll address it. I am not a doctor, right? So I'm not giving anybody medical advice here. I will tell you that it's a very hotly debated topic. So people on alternative medicine and things like holistic healing will tell you that adrenal fatigue is a real thing and there's eight zillion supplements that you should be taking to support your adrenals. Yet people in allopathic medicine and in the research field will tell you there's no actual clinical evidence for adrenal fatigue or adrenal burnout because of this. So that being the case, Jessica, sure. People do have adrenal gland problems. It's a thing. And if you suspect that, you might wanna go see your doc and talk to an endocrinologist, but I'm not really sure. Jury's out on that one. I'm not sure that I like to hang my hat on, yes, my panic is caused by adrenal problems. It could be it's possible, but it seems to be a rare thing. So let's say we turn things into stress with anxious thinking, acceptance might help. I agree with that. So sometimes we have outside stressors that we can't control job and money and things of that nature, but we can make it worse by the way we interpret those things. So when you learn to accept, well, there's two things going on there, Donna, there's accepting your anxiety as part of recovery. And then there's also just sort of being chill and zen about life in general. So we can sometimes choose what will stress us out and what will not. So I think that's a thing, right? So choosing, trying to learn to accept, what is that thing? Let me understand the things I can change or things that accept what I can't change. And I like the serenity prayer. I don't remember it up top of my head, but yes, that's a thing. So we could make things worse by the way we may stress out other things that don't necessarily need to be stressed out over. So that's important too. Barbara, my high job actually helps me when I'm working and have less anxiety. Sure, that's that thing where you get out of your own head and suddenly you discover like, oh, I'm not anxious right now. That was a bad time for, oh yeah, yeah, Ben's kind of saw me through some of those days when I was going through that stuff. The antidepressant withdrawal was difficult. I'm gonna talk about that at some point. I know it's a big topic. Hey, Lisa, how you doing? Have anxiety in the state? Strong, positive, fought it off. I can get anxious, but I'm stronger than it. Yep, that's cool. I love, I love, love, love that. Thank you, Lisa, that's great. I would modify that fought it off thing because if you've been following me it's not necessarily about fighting it, you know? But yes, you got past it and it's great and it did make you a stronger person. I would agree with that 100%. That is great, hope to get to that point. Do you have any advice on morning anxiety? I will talk about that. Let's see here, find it hard to float. That's what you're supposed to have, but it's hard to do. So I'm gonna talk about morning anxiety. I'm talking about what Janet just said. I find it so hard to float and accept panicky feelings. Okay, most of my stress, resisting my anxiety. Okay, so let's talk about that. Morning anxiety. So I'm gonna talk about morning anxiety. I used to have that in a huge way, so especially when I was sort of chemical scrambled eggs after the antidepressants. I would wake up at three o'clock in the morning, not be able to go to sleep and I would be in a knot instantly. So it's instant anxiety the minute I would open my eyes in the morning. So a lot of people talk about cortisol levels and cortisol levels, which cortisol is a stress hormone. It does, we can measure those things and your cortisol levels can be higher. And if you're watching in Florida, don't be, I know what you're gonna say, I'm talking about this, but cortisol levels are higher in the morning. They just are, right? We have natural circadian rhythms and chemical rhythms and we know that cortisol levels are higher in the morning. And so some people kind of talk about that. Like we have morning anxiety because of the cortisol levels, but I don't know if that's, I'm sure it plays into it, but for me what I discovered was my morning anxiety was more about anticipation. So morning anxiety could be, and for me it definitely was, I would open my eyes and immediately think like, oh God, here we go again. Like here comes the anxiety, the day's gonna, I would lay in bed at three o'clock in the morning and think I have like four hours before I have to get into the world again, which I don't wanna do. And so the anticipation of having to live the day was so difficult that it would ratchet my anxiety level up. So Billy, I don't know if you feel that in the morning, but that's definitely a thing. It was a thing for me. It was a big thing for me, as a matter of fact. And when I learned what helped me with morning anxiety in a way, and I think it's a chicken and egg thing. So when I wasn't anticipating horror for the day, my anxiety level, my morning anxiety went down and I'm sure my cortisol levels dropped as well. But what helped me was that I would discover it became predictable for me. I would get up in the morning and up early, early, wouldn't be able to go back to sleep. My anxiety level would be through the roof, but I would know I'd be able to predict it by the time I hit 11 or 12 o'clock around noon, and especially by the time we got to five or six o'clock, my anxiety level would be down. So I would know like, okay, well I feel like crap right now, but I know that later I'm gonna feel better. That helped as soon as I recognized that and said, okay, cool, I know this is gonna happen. This is just the way I'm gonna feel right now, and I kind of accepted that. The morning anxiety started to go away. But now, so let's talk about Janet who said, finding it hard to float through those feelings, and yeah, we talk about being able to float through that stuff all the time. So part of what I was talking about with the morning anxiety is that. I just learned to accept like, oh, I feel like this now. What's the difference? I felt like this, you know, 68 mornings in a row. So what's the difference? I might as well get up and eat breakfast and take a shower and work and go be productive and deal with my kids and just live life. So when I accepted it and all the feelings that came along with it, it began to go away. There's no, I know it's hard. I know it's hard, but there's no, I think it was Ronald in the discussion group who posted about how accepting is not a skill. It's not a technique, it's actually a mindset, right? So, you know, just think about that, Janet, if you will. Like you just have to decide either you're going to accept it or you're not. It's tough, but I wish I could tell you that there's some sort of technique for accepting the feelings, but you just have to decide that's it. I'm just gonna let this go. It's more of a mindset than a technique. So what else do we have going on here? Most of my stress comes from resisting my anxiety and bad feelings, okay? So that's like a self-feeding cycle. That's tough, for sure. And again, I start to sound like a broken record when I talk about these things, but like, yes, it's when I just kind of embraced it like, okay, this is the way it's gonna be. I'm gonna feel like this or I have these symptoms and that's it. Things definitely got better. So when you fight against, when you fight your symptoms, you fight the anxiety, it becomes, it's a source of stress by itself because then you're bracing against it, you're waiting for it to come back. It's a little bit ugly. I wish I knew what all these things, I guess, oh, people are liking the comments and stuff. Okay, cool. Oh, I got like an angry face just went by. Waking up dizzy every morning. Yeah, right on, don't want to face the day. Sure, that's probably a good reason for you're welcome, Janet, no problem. Thanks for asking the question. Yeah, not wanting to face the day is rough. I think, I don't know if anybody also finds, and again, keeping it back sort of on the topic of stress, I would have much less anxiety come Friday. Amazing, right? Because like it was the weekend and I didn't have to go to work on Saturday and Sunday to have to be in the office. When my life was a little bit different, it was more structured. Before that, it was very free form because I own my own business and sort of make my own hours and I might be working at 3 a.m. or 4 a.m. or I might be working at midnight or I might work a regular day, but I did have a period there of a couple of years when I had merged my company briefly with another company that my schedule was regular. So it was like, I had to get up and actually go there. Just that life changer is stressful. But what I would find is that, oh, like come Friday afternoon, suddenly like, oh, geez, I didn't feel so anxious because I didn't have that anticipation of, oh, God, I have to get up and come here again tomorrow. It's not like I hated it. I didn't hate the work or the job. I liked the people I worked with. And it was something I chose to do was merging the companies together. We kind of de-merged later on and I'm happy for that. That was 10 years ago, more, more now. That was a long time, it was 2005 to 2007. So it was a while ago. But if you can look and say like, hey, when does my anxiety naturally wane for me? It was when I got away from the stress of anticipation. Like, oh, okay, nobody's gonna expect me to do anything tomorrow. So I'm good. Yeah, that would start to happen. You're welcome, Billy. That's very kind of you to say. So let's see, 28 minutes, who's around? We still have seven or eight people popping around. Does anybody else have any other questions that I miss anything? I can't tell how this is going in real time. I could try and fire it up on my phone and see what it looks like. Can't really tell, to be honest with you. Let's see, I'm sorry, I'm just gonna look. Yeah, that's too bad. I'll leave it up on my phone too, which is a little weird so I can see how far behind we are. Yeah, I guess if anybody has any other questions, anything that you want me to talk about specifically related to stress, I think the overall thing is, be aware of outside stressors, understand that sometimes we cannot stop them. We can choose to not stress over some things. So that was a good point. And I think trying to dissipate your stress is probably a better idea than running toward it. So we don't want to embrace the stress, we want to try and deal with it. And find ways to do that. I know that when we're in high anxiety states, it can be difficult. Like for me, I want to go to the gym, I want to lift heavy, I want to get that out physically, I want to hit the heavy bag. And you gotta heavy bag, man, I love that thing. I love the heavy bag. But if you're, some people, when you're dealing with anxiety all the time, it's hard to exercise. So that's when you got to turn to meditation, you got to turn to progressive muscle relaxation. You have to find things that you may enjoy doing. I know that's been a discussion in the group for a while. You know, that whole like, well, what do I want to do? That makes me feel good. But you know, just engaging in activities that you enjoy is a stress reducer. Maybe you're like to watch movies or listen to music or you guitar behind me. I like to play my guitar. So yeah, yeah, so I think finding ways to dissipate the stress is important. And it helps. So let's see, will this repost? Yes, it will Donna, it's gonna stay up on the page here. So it'll just, it'll be like a regular post. Oh, thanks Ben. Sherry, I'm sure you felt the same way, but it seems like Dr. Weeks are more successful while on it. No, Sherry, I'm gonna respectfully disagree with you. The things that Dr. Weeks talked about that I talk about, which I'm just kind of rehashing her stuff. I've said that all the time. They're not more successful in a lower anxiety state at all. I can tell you that I got to where I am with this using those exact techniques of exposure and facing and acceptance and continued graduated exposure at the worst panic that my panic was every bit as bad as anybody who's watching right now. And it still can be, you know, I can still have panic attacks there as bad as anything in this room in this chat now it is experiencing. So I don't, that's not true. That's not true. Though those things can work even at the highest levels of anxiety. In fact, that's the object of the game. You want to experience the worst anxiety that you could think of. And if you're doing it the right way, you're just gonna let it happen. It's gonna happen quickly and go away. And then you're gonna learn that even the worst anxiety isn't dangerous and you don't have to feel it, fear it. So yeah, Sherry, that's that. George, am I able to touch on health anxiety? Health anxiety is a tough, tough topic. Danny Monahan, Dan the man. Love it, holy crap. I had no idea, Dan, good to see you, dude. That is one of my oldest friends in the whole world. So let's see here. What do we think about long-term Benzo use? Health anxiety is a topic bigger than this chat, George. We'll talk about that one day and Billy and I have done, we did a video on health anxiety. So if you go to my website, that anxietyguy.com, you'll see somewhere on there. You might want to check that out. I don't want to kind of touch it on it today. We'll do another one of these about that. Terry, what do you think about long-term Benzo use? I will be flat out honest with you. I hate it. I hate it. I had a very, very bad experience pharmaceutical deal, trying to deal with anxiety pharmaceutical. And so I am biased. I was not a Benzo user. I did not use Benzo diazipines. For me, it was anti-depressant usage that caused me all kinds of problems and I regret ever having done it. So I do not think long-term Benzo use is a good thing at all because in reality, we do develop a tolerance to Benzo diazipines. And I know many, many, many people that are still taking the maximum dose of Xanax every single day that still have panic attacks and anxiety. It just stops working except you are now addicted to that physically dependent upon that. And Benzo withdrawal is a bitch in plain English. It isn't serious shit. So I'm not a big fan. Ben, yes, I can help on that if you like. You're right, Ben is correct. I did not touch the Benzos for a reason. So do I still with dizziness? Billy talked about shaky legs when you're dizzy. It's just another symptom like anything else when your legs are shaky they still work just fine. So it's okay. It doesn't matter. And yes, dizziness is something that sometimes it's still an anxiety symptom for me, but that's okay. You just any symptom you wanna throw out there I'm gonna give you the same answer. It's just another symptom that you just have to let happen. It's not gonna kill you. So let's see. I know I was a little harsh on the Benzos. So Terry, I'm sorry about that. But Ben, maybe if you guys wanna bring it up in the group and have a discussion on that I'm good with that. Jessica says, how can you tell your body to stop triggering your mind or vice versa? I am constantly monitoring my body and sensations and I hate it. Well, first you have to not care about those sensations. So the way that's gonna work is when you don't and I know I've talked about this and it's hard for some people to understand. So you're not trying to stop those sensations and thoughts. You're trying to get to the point where you don't care if you have them. So if your heart is racing, who cares? Your heart is perfectly fine. If your hands are shaking they're still perfectly fine. If your legs are jelly, they're still carrying you around. So Jessica, you have to get to the point where you don't care about those sensations and you don't fear them. Then you will stop monitoring yourself for them. But when you're afraid of them and you wanna fight from them and run from them and try and stop them from happening then that is exactly what happens. You get in that feedback loop where you're always scanning. How do I feel now? How do I feel now? How do I feel now? And it makes the problem worse. So that's how you do it. You can't tell your body to stop triggering your mind. You have to actually tell your mind to not be afraid of your body. It's the other way. Ben is talking about a tapering process that's cool. Billy, yes, SSRI medications are horrible. Lexa Pro is a tough one. So Lexa is a tough one too, but it's a thing, it's a thing. Da-da-da-da acceptance, yes. Da-da-da-da U-T-T-A, very good. Let's see here. I got rubber legs in the mall and now I'm scared. And now I am scared of walls. Should I go back? Of course you should. That's bordering on what we call a simple phobia. So if you get bit by a dog, suddenly you are instantly afraid to pet dogs. Even if you've been around dogs your whole life, but the minute a dog bites you, you can become instantly afraid of dogs. So yes, Terry, you got rubber legs in the mall and now you don't wanna go back to the mall. That's pretty much how our brains work. It sucks. But yes, you have to work on getting back to that mall. That's exposing yourself to your symptoms. Janet, it sounds so easy. It does sound so easy. Here's what I tell everybody. It is a super simple plan that I always talk about. It can just be really hard to execute because the key ingredient that most people don't wanna throw in the mix is you have to be courageous at first. So the first time you just sit back in your chair and do nothing but close your eyes, go limp and breathe while you're in the middle of level 10 panic attack, that takes a set. Like you gotta find that courage to do that. But once you find it and once you get that courage and start doing that, it gets easier as you go. So yes, it is an easy plan, but it's really hard to execute because of the courage thing. Miss your weekly videos on YouTube. Yeah, we're working on it. I'm gonna be doing one with Holly soon, hopefully. Billy and I have been talking again. We're actually working on some actually work projects together. Is there a real reason for SSRI, says Ben, not to disrespect anyone? Well, that's a whole topic too. So I'll tell you, I'll touch on that a little bit. This has nothing to do with stress, but we'll talk about it anyway. For me, it was nine years in the US, we call it Paxil. I believe, I don't know what you call it in the UK. You know, if we have people from the UK, actually they're sleeping now, so they're not here. Yes, Paxil. That was the antidepressant I took. The doctor, I was at the worst point and the doctor at the time was a general practitioner. He gave me the all like, well, if you had diabetes, you would take insulin, right? I believed it and I started taking the medication and sure enough, in two or three weeks, I stopped having panic attacks and my depression lifted. I thought it was the greatest thing ever, but in the end, it was not a good thing because it took away, for me, for me, the uses of SSRI took away everything. No emotion, I wasn't happy, I wasn't sad, I didn't laugh, I didn't cry, and grandparents passed away. My kids were born, felt nothing. It was bad, it put me in a bad place. I gained huge amounts of weight. I weighed 100 pounds more than I do today. It was not a good deal, it was not a good deal. And so they work for many people. Oh, look, I didn't have panic attacks, but even then, they stopped working after a while. I was always having to mess with the dose. Luckily, I didn't wind up in that situation where they're adding this medication on top of that. And I still only took the one, so I was lucky, I was really lucky. A lot of people go down that road and you wind up on four and five different medications because one stops working, you mess with the dose, let's try this one, let's add another one. It's a little rough, it can be difficult. And honestly, when was the last time that you heard, saw a commercial for anti-depressant that mentioned the term chemical imbalance? They don't say that anymore. Because even then, it was just a theory. We actually have no way to measure, and if you're still listening in Florida, we'll take this up later. We have no way to measure the level of neurotransmitters in a living human brain. You have to be dead to measure that. So that chemical imbalance theory is even acknowledged by the companies who make those medications as a theory. So it's only an assumed mechanism of action, we don't know. So anyway, sorry I've seen you're talking about it. It's been such a practice to not believe my thoughts. Yeah, yeah, yeah, totally, totally. Sherry, my story posted to read. I don't know if you're in the, yes, you know what? It is, I'm gonna click around a little bit if you guys don't mind. I can put a link in here. We, Billy and I did a video together where, I'm sorry, I'm gonna look this up and I'm gonna post it, where he kind of interviewed me and I told my whole story. So I will try and find that and I'll throw it in here. Let's see here, it's on my YouTube channel. Where is it? It's called Yes, My Anxiety. It used to be as bad as, here it is. Copy the link. All right, ready? Here it comes. I'm gonna paste it in. Bam. Sherry, that's the link to the video where I basically talked for a bunch of time over what my story was and what my anxiety issue was. And you are welcome. Donna, it is practice to not believe your thoughts. This stuff takes time. It takes time, it takes time. We're hamsticks. Okay, so Jessica, I've been on Zoloft for 16 plus years. Okay, Zoloft is, I'm gonna get out of my own chat. I don't need this. Sorry. It's a little weird. Let's see here, I've been on Zoloft for 16 years and I hate it. Same deal, low emotions. Yes, yes, yes, yes. Very difficult. How do I get off a tapering? Yes, it's funny cause there's a bunch of people I'm still friends with to this day that went through that process at the same time as me and we all met on this website called Paxil Progress which unfortunately no longer exists. It was run by just an exceptional woman from New Jersey whose son had gone through it and she started this website and there were thousands and thousands of people who went through that at the same time. It was such a good resource. Sometimes I wish it was still there. Yes, I did tape her but I tape her too fast cause my doctor at the time kinda gave me the spiel from the drug company which was like, oh, you can get off it in two weeks. I took longer than that cause I was a little bit more cautious. I think I took a month or two to do it. I should have taken much, much, much longer. So the tapering off of that is a thing and while the company that makes Zoloft and your doctor will probably tell you you like to start cutting your pills in half or take one, one day skip the next day, no. You should tape a really, really, really slow, right? So very tiny drops and you may feel those or you may not. I was one of those, unfortunately, one of those people that felt really bad side effects when I started lowering my dose and got off the medication and it's just a long time to get back to sort of normal and that natural state but as much as I am biased that I hate those companies and I hate those medications, I will admit that I am in the minority. Best estimates, maybe 30 to 40% of people deal with this protracted, what the drug company will call discontinuation syndrome but I know other people who've been on those drugs for a long time that taper over the course of a few weeks or a month and they don't have a problem. But Jessica, one thing I will say is if you do that and you start to find more anxiety, more depression, your symptoms ratchet up and get magnified, more than likely we're usually told we'll see that's the original problem. You have to be on this. Your chemical imbalance is still there. That's not always true. So when you remove the drug, you do start to run into issues where you have neurotransmitter receptors that have to up-regulate and yeah, your brain chemistry gets thrown into a bit of a disarray. So it's very common to struggle more as you're tapering and when you first get off the drug till you get back to that normal spot. Don't I still have my OG videos? Yeah, OG original gangsta. I do have some of those old school videos. Some day I will go through them and post them up there. Some of the old exposures. That's from Ben and I first met back in probably 2008, 2009. So let's see what else we have going on here. Do I miss any other comments? I don't think I missed anything. I'll try and find those. You know what? Let me do the health anxiety one too while I'm on the site. Or I could ask, let's see. I'm gonna post the link to the health anxiety video too. George, are you still here? I will try and grab that for you real quick. Where is it? No comfortable way. We talked about health anxiety, health anxiety. I can't find it, but it's up there somewhere. It's up there somewhere. Health anxiety. I'll try and find it and I'll post it. So I don't know, any other questions? Are there certain foods that trigger panic? Okay, let's see here. That's a reasonable question. Missy asks, are there certain foods that trigger panic? I'm gonna answer that by saying that's the wrong question. So the reason why I say that's the wrong question is not because I'm trying to be a smart ass, but hear me out on this. When you ask if there are certain foods that trigger panic, what you're saying is, I don't wanna eat anything that will make me feel that way. Which is fine, because nobody wants to have panic. I get that. But I'll relay my own experience. When I was in some of my worst times, one night we had Chinese food for dinner. Just what I would be thinking about it. And we ate and within 20 or 30 minutes, I had this raging panic attack and I convinced myself that there was something in the Chinese food that caused it. And so I was afraid to eat it for a really long time. And in the end, Chinese food was not the cause of my panic at all. But the biggest problem was they started to avoid certain things because I was afraid of the anxiety. So yeah, I mean, you can certainly like, caffeine is gonna, certainly there are food, caffeine will raise your heart rate. That's not it. Everybody knows this. But in terms of food that trigger panic, I would say you stay away from stimulants, don't drink a lot of coffee and tea or eat chocolate or drink cola, things that stay away from caffeine. But in the same vein, having a soda that raises your heart rate could be used as intercepted exposure. So have I heard of Charles Linden? Hold that thought. I'm gonna talk about Charles Linden in a second and then I'll probably get sued because that's what he does. Let's see here. So anyway, Missy, that's my answer to that question. I don't know of foods that specifically trigger panic, but don't harp on that. Like you got to work on not being afraid of the panic and then you won't care what you eat. Doesn't matter. That's my fear. I did taper down my anxiety. Yeah, Jessica, that happens, man. It's really, it's tough and it can make you feel so frustrated because you don't want to be on the meds. I didn't want to be on them anymore. That was a tough place for me to be. But then when you try to get off them and you feel like you're health hostage, I understand that. But yes, really small. I'm trying to think the best strategy that most of the people on that old website found was like 10% drops in dosage and then you give no more than a 10% drop, which is difficult because sometimes you have to find a compounding pharmacy that will liquefy the medication, but you do your drop and you know you're gonna feel like shit and you just work on, you gotta wait until you stabilize and then you're ready for the next drop. And I literally know people that took years. They were down to tiny little liquid doses before they finally stopped. That was maybe a little extreme. They might not have need to do that, but yeah, go super slow and you'll be okay. You'll get through it. Tomato-based foods, acid, which can at risk as Ray. Hey, Ray. Yep, okay. So, or spicy food. So, Ray's talking about different types of food. I guess if a food gives you acid reflux, that sort of thing or gives you heartburn, yes. I don't say it can be misconstrued as anxiety, but if that bothers you, if that sensation bothers you, then yes, that could be an issue. So, if you're afraid of that feeling, if you have reflux or you get heartburn, I know there are certain foods that will give me heartburn. Like I'm a big fan, like I live in bagel country. I'm on my island. We're right in the New York metro area. We have awesome bagels here. I love bagels. Buy you a plain bagel, but don't put anything on it, which I love to do. I try not to because I don't need to gain weight, but yeah, for you to plain bagel, I'm gonna get heartburn. But if you're afraid of that sensation, because you worry that, oh, what if it's not heartburn? What if I have a heart attack? Then sure, but like you said, you can avoid all those foods if you want, but sooner or later, you really have to not be afraid of what your body is doing. Heartburn is socks, but acid reflux, but it's not gonna kill you. But it doesn't mean you want it until I get it. He's a fraud terrier. No, you know what, Ben? So we're talking about Charles Linden here. Maybe I'm not gonna talk about Charles. You know what? I hate to do that. I hate to do that. Look, here's what I know about Charles Linden. I'll tell you this about Charles Linden. First of all, I'm gonna tell you this about anybody who's online talking about anxiety, especially people who are selling things, right? I talk all the time about Claire Weeks. That's what I base all of my stuff on. She is the gold standard by which everything else, in my opinion, is measured. And most programs that are good, and this includes Dare. Somebody mentioned Dare in the comments. I know there's a problem with Dare. That seems pretty good. Most of the best programs that you can spend your money on are really just rehashing what she said, right? So, and that's fine. That's totally fine. And I think that Charles Linden's method, I think, is sort of based on that, but it's kind of secretive. You cannot find it. They protect it really, and it's his right. He wrote the program, so it's his right to protect that. I understand. It's his business. It's hard to find unless you pay all the money. So it's hard to find the program unless you pay all the money. There's zealous about protecting their intellectual property, which again, it's their right to do that. As a business, I get it. But here's what I don't like about it. It's such a business. If you Google Charles Linden and look at whatever he's called the Linden method, you will find more people that are affiliates who are trying to get you to buy it through them than people who really talk genuinely about how the program worked for them. And they also are very aggressive in terms of somebody who has a negative opinion, at least in the UK where they're based, there's a really good chance that somebody's gonna knock on your door and wanna sue you. So, yeah. I'll tell you that there are better places to spend your money than the Linden method. Jessica, my doctor hates the newly pregnant, congratulations, and my doctor wants me up by nine months. Yep, yep. That's a good thing. Nine months is a long time, you can do that. Billy's tapering, it can be done really slow, that's cool, razor blades, yep, you can do that too. I was cutting my pills. So what I was doing for packs, all they were scored, so I was able to cut them in half. And then I used a pill cutter to cut them in quarters. So my drops were enormous, they're way bigger than they should have been, to be honest with you. Laurie, oh, thank you for compassionate, you're very welcome, dealing with reflux now, yeah. Leave it, it sucks. Charles, help me a lot, all right? So for Ray, Charles, help you, that's fine, I have no problem with that. Is it the higher level of adrenaline that's causing the high sensitivity level? So that's just a question for Sherry. Adrenaline doesn't cause sensitivity, adrenaline happens when you're sensitive. So adrenaline is the chemical in your bloodstream that causes that rapid heart rate and the jelly legs and the fast breathing and the visual disturbances. So adrenaline is causing the sensations that you don't like. And no, adrenaline is not the cause of the sensitivity. What causes the sensitivity, to be completely honest with you, I mean, we are biochemical beings in the end, so I'm sure there's something about that. But in the end, in my view of this, obviously if you followed me for any amount of time, I am obviously a behaviorist, so I make no doubt about that. I don't know how to describe a lot of physiological cures or things to this. I don't really care so much about the chemistry because in my opinion, we can't manipulate it anyway. So we can't micromanage our hormones and our brain chemistry. So to me, I take a behavioral approach to this. So what causes the high level of sensitivity is just being on guard all the time for how you feel. That's why you're sensitive because you're afraid of those feelings. Claire is gold, yep. Claire listens to Claire Weeks, oh yo. You know what I like about Claire Weeks too, it sounds like you're listening to your grandma. I don't know, she just has that way. She's a little bit gruff and she's a little bit gruff about it sometimes, which I like, but yet somehow she sounds like you're talking to someone's grandma. She actually passed many years ago. I've had contact with her nieces who manage her estate and all the books and stuff. Just good people. They're good people. They want to help people. And that's why I like that her stuff is also pretty cheap. Like her books, her audio books, you buy hope and help for your nerves. You're gonna find on Amazon here in the US for under $10, like six or eight bucks. Like it's so cheap and it's incredibly good advice. So Ray says that Charles helped him, Ray and Charles Lynn helped you with the knowledge knowing that no one was alone and no one has ever died from some disease. And that it's very true so that it sounds like he is very heavily based on like the Claire Weeks thing. She wrote what she wrote in the 50s, the 1950s and 60s. So I can say Lyndon is a scam. Okay. The Lyndon method is, I can be curious to the Lyndon method. I don't know it specifically, but it sounds like Ray just said in the comments is it's probably heavily based on the Claire Weeks stuff that since no one has ever died, like the key here is that those sensations are not gonna kill you or really hurt you. So you have to learn to not fear them. So that's that. Dare is very weak. Yup. I'm sure that it probably, like I said, she's a lot of people are basing their stuff on her. You don't need anything but your own mind by changing your thoughts and accepting that's true. Billy, do you have a fear of flying? I heard, Terry, maybe you were the one who mentioned fear of flying. I used to be terrified to fly. So I, you know, I'm dealing with this anxiety and panic stuff and at the same time I was terrified to get on an airplane. But in the last, you know, year or so I'm fly all over the damn place. So I'll tell you how I got past quickly, the fear of flying, this is nothing to be stressed, but okay, how I got past that. First of all, I've dealt with my anxiety. So I'm not afraid of that. It used to be, honestly, the thought of even going as far as the airport. You know, I live on Long Island. It takes me an hour to get to any of the big, either JFK or LaGuardia and the thought of even going an hour away from home to an airport when it set me off. So much as getting on a plane. But now, you know, if I get on a plane and I have a panic attack on the plane, I don't care. I don't want to, but oh well, it'll be over in 15 minutes. I'll go on about my day. So how I got over my fear of flying was first to not care if I panic and deal with the anxiety stuff. I still had a fear of flying. And actually I used some of the same methods that I used to deal with my anxiety. So first of all, I learned what every single noise and I knew exactly what to expect the internet rules because of that. I was able to watch what on YouTube when I watched this shit ton of videos of planes taking off, planes landing. So I knew what the noises were. You know, it helps me a lot on most of the flights now. There's a screen that shows me where the plane is, what's going on, what our altitude is. So I'm like already expecting like, oh, we're gonna start to descend now or we're not even at our cruising altitude. We're gonna keep climbing and turning. So just knowing ahead of time helped me and understanding that like I may still have a jolt of fear but if I don't brace against it, it'll go away. So that helped me with my fear of flying. It helps when I hear advice from other people that have suffered with true panic attacks. And they're like, yeah, I was, Missy, I was completely housebound or close to it. I won't say I was completely housebound but I was very close to that. And now I love it like a really normal life. Lori, can you go through a scenario where you went full panic? How did you face, accept and float? Okay, well Ben sort of answered that a little bit here. Picture yourself in a store having a panic attack and you say to yourself, hey, what's up panic? Welcome to the store, let's go shopping together. Lori, the answer to your question there, can I go through a scenario where I face, like today I was, earlier in the video, I was saying that I actually had a panic attack today. And next time it happens, no matter where I am, I will video that for you guys. But I know people have sat with people who are in my life and real life have actually sat with me and watched me go through panic attacks and had no idea, right? So I know people who have been in a room with me and I will actually stop and say, right, I'm having a swing and panic attack right now. And invariably the people in the room will say like, really, they have no idea. So how do you face and accept? You just do, there's no technique for accepting it. It's more of a mindset than a technique, which is one of the greatest comments I've heard in a really long time. There's no technique, it's just, the only technique I can tell you is when it hits you, when it hits me, all I complete, I relax every muscle in my body, I just go completely limp, I try and maintain a neutral kind of upright posture. I don't brace, I don't fight, I don't fidget, I stay still and I just work on my breathing and when thoughts come in my head, they come in my head, I let them go. So I'm trying to empty my head, empty. I'm not arguing with myself over whether or not I'm having a heart attack, by the way. So what I'm trying to do is keep my brain, my mind calm and empty, I'm not having an inner dialogue with my thoughts and I'm just completely relaxing my body and you just let that wave of adrenaline happen, the fear comes, the racing heart comes, the heavy breathing comes, the jelly legs come, the sweating comes, all those things come, but if you don't do anything with them, what I tell people all the time is you can, when you have a panic attack, you can either do something or you can do nothing. The better thing is to do nothing because either way you're gonna get through the other side, either way at some point that panic attack will be over but if you do nothing, it will be a little faster than doing something. So my advice to you in terms of accepting is literally do nothing. And I mean nothing in the truest sense of the word, no movement, no tensing, no nothing. No arguing with yourself in your head, no snapping a rubber band, no coloring, no calling your husband, nothing. And I know that sounds crazy, but trust me, that will work. So I was driving to my office today in a full blown panic attack. I mean, I could have pulled over, it was dangerous but I drove 15 minutes to my office with panic running right through me and sure enough, I don't know, before I even got there. 10, 12 minutes into it, whatever, it's over. So there you go. So Ben's talking about it too. I've accepted it as a friend and self-talking. That's that mindset you have to get to. Sherry uses headphones and meditation apps on a plane. That's cool. And Don at right, no one ever knows it'd be either, right? How about getting over leaving my safe zone? I pushed myself to do it over and over but it still causes, okay, so I see no pleasure in it. Okay, you're obviously doing something wrong. That's a super good question too. I'll keep going, what the hell? It's 11 o'clock, you guys want to keep talking, I'll keep talking, I'm good with that. We've been at this moment over almost an hour. So let's see here, leaving your safe zone. So when you say you're pushing yourself, that's always an indicator. The language could be an indicator that maybe you are doing the wrong. It's not about necessarily pushing yourself, right? It's not a, if you're getting, if you're going outside your safe zone, and white knuckling through it, that's just enduring it. And you don't want to just endure it, you actually have to truly relax. So I'm going to say that you're not really relaxing into the anxiety, it's about doing the opposite of what you think you want to do. So when you want to fight it and you want to run, do the opposite. When you want to tense your body and brace and fight and try and somehow to distract you, do the opposite. So I think forget your safe zone right now, stay in it, and my advice would be, you have to work on the skill of truly letting that happen. So if you can have anxiety in your dining room, Jessica, then work on having anxiety in your dining room. You don't necessarily have to work on it, 100 miles from your house. It doesn't matter where you are, it matters what you're doing. So work first on truly just relaxing into the anxiety. And I try and use the analogy of bending in the wind, like a willow tree. So you have that storm is coming at you and the wind is blowing and the rain is at you, you're not bracing against it like a steel beam, you're just blowing in the wind like a willow tree and you snap right back up right again. So you just go soft into it as opposed to fighting against it. And work on doing that while you're in your safe zone. And then you'll find it easier than, when you've mastered those skills, you'll find that you can push a little bit easier. But when you do go outside where there's a comfortable area for you, you will experience anxiety. That's supposed to happen. So if you're used to staying in a little five mile zone around your house and you push yourself to go seven miles, you are going to feel anxiety. That's the point of the exposure. Success isn't that you didn't feel anxiety, success is that you felt the anxiety, but you relaxed into it and it was over in a few minutes and you stayed in that larger zone for 10, 15 minutes and then calmly went back home. That's success. So success is it's not that you don't have anxiety, success is how you deal with the anxiety that you have. Best breathing exercise, super easy. Chest should move and breathing it through your nose. Whatever the count is for me, it's a count in five. And my stomach is what's expanding, not my chest. You notice my shoulders and my chest don't move and then it's a quick hold. So in for five, out for seven through the mouth. Slow, slow. What you really care about is the exhale longer than the inhale. And what you don't wanna do, and most people make this problem is the big, because sometimes when you're in anxiety, you feel like you can't breathe and you try and do that giant breath where you fill your lungs and you're expanding your chest and your shoulders grow up and then you do the, so if you find that you're doing that and you're sighing, that could be over breathing. And if anybody has ever had where your nose starts to tingle, your face tingles, your toes and your fingers are tingling, or if you've ever had your hands like lock in that claw shape, that's because you're not breathing right. That's those are hyperventilation symptoms. So the breathing is the exhale, inhale through the nose, breathe into the belly, not the chest and the shoulders and the exhale out through the mouth longer than the inhale. Doesn't really count. Laurie, this isn't a mental disorder, it's a learned behavior. Yes, yes, Laurie, that is exactly what this is. I hate when people call this a disease because it is not, it is not. And again, remember, I'm a behaviorist, so I'm gonna approach it from that standpoint. It is a learned behavior. Your brain has just gotten into some bad habits, right? These are phobias, right? These are phobias. Lisa, what's up, Lisa? Lisa, my friend, the photographer, she's, who needs photography, go to her by the way. Lisa, I'm lurking, isn't that when out of you see her comment there or whatever, but yeah, Lisa has gone, nice to see you here. So it's not a disease, it's not a, it's what we call a panic disorder. It's classified as a disorder. It's a cognitive issue. It's not a disease, you're not, there's no break with reality here. Like what happened to the person, I forget who was saying, Terry, I think, right? I said, yeah, you had jelly legs when you went to the mall and now you're afraid to go to the mall. That's what happens. So what's happening in this situation is you are learning to be afraid of more and more things because they are uncomfortable and we don't wanna be uncomfortable. But you can unlearn those things by relaxing into them and unmasking the fear. The fear is real, the danger is not. So you just have to learn to let the fear be there because when you will learn through experience, that's how we unwire that bad habit that you don't have to be afraid. Who just asked me, you basically conquered the anxiety, why do you still have panic attacks? I don't know, I don't care. I don't, I mean, it's rare that I have a panic attack. I would tell you that the panic attack I had today was almost purely physical. It's just, you know, I really, I've incredibly sleep deprived the last, especially the last month, I don't sleep a lot as it is, I'm having sleep issues and just stress upon stress upon stress and I didn't wanna shovel snow and that was it. That was definitely, it was a physical thing for me today. But why do I still have panic attacks? I don't know, but I'm a care. That's the point. But yes, I feel like I have conquered my anxiety. I still feel anxiety, but I just don't care that I feel it and it goes away. You're able to deal with it better. Yeah, it doesn't leave forever. For me, it hasn't left forever. I mean, obviously I have way less anxiety than I used to. Way, way, way, way, way less anxiety, right? I used to be 24 seven, like worried about how I felt, ratchet it up, always ready for like a panic attack. No, I don't have that anymore, but I can still experience anxiety. I just, it's just not a life changer. We need to desensitize and retrain our brains. That is completely correct. Completely correct. Yes, relax into it, Laurie. Yes, you do the opposite of what you think you're gonna do. The fear is real, the dangers. And I have said that a million times, that is true. And so for the people in your lives that are around you that see you dealing with these things, and we're over an hour now, probably gonna wrap it up pretty quickly, but the people in your life that see you dealing with these things that don't understand, I hear people say all the time, well, nobody understands. Nobody understands, we need more awareness. Well, screw that, you don't need, we don't need more awareness. The reason why they don't understand is that they, they don't see the danger, cause there is none. So think about it that way. So when you're in that high anxiety state and you see your husband or your wife or even your kids, when I was at my worst, my kids were little, I mean little, like five and seven years old, they were role models for me, my kids were, because they just walked around normally, right? They, I would be in a complete and utter like near meltdown and they didn't see the danger. Like they didn't, they knew there was no danger. So that's the thing, like use the people around you to reinforce that for you. Like they know you're, they don't understand why you're panicking because they know you're in no actual danger. Just you don't know it yet. You have to learn that. We only learned it with two ways we can learn. We can learn rationally by reading or what's the best way to say this? You have to, we have a couple of ways to learn. We could read, we could watch other people model tasks or behaviors that we're trying to learn. But the only true way that we actually learn and adopt the behavior is experientially. We have to actually do it, but use the people around you to demonstrate that you're really, there is no danger. They know you're in no danger, but the fear is real. The fear is absolutely real, but the danger isn't. So you have to face the fear to learn that the danger isn't there. Take care, Ben. Thanks for it, thanks for hanging in. Yes, Donna says lots of people have panic attacks and don't have a disorder. That's exactly why. They just never get to the point where they fear the symptoms. And that's why I say it's a learned thing, right? We're in the same boat. Thanks so much. You're welcome, right? You're welcome. So, yep. Thank you so much. Well, you guys are welcome. I enjoy doing it, so it's no big deal. Hopefully it helped out. All right, so we're over an hour. I am gonna wrap it up. I appreciate you guys popping by. This will stay on, so I'll just leave it up on the page. I'm gonna ask two favors though, and there's one favor. If you haven't subscribed to my YouTube channel, do it. It's youtube.com, that's that anxiety guy. It helps, there's some YouTube algorithms that are changing and yeah, so I'm just gonna ask you to do that. But otherwise, I appreciate you guys coming by and if you're not in the discussion group or doing most of you are, you get in there. You're gonna wanna be in there. And yeah, it's gonna be good. So this is my third high note. I know it can be, it absolutely can be beat. And you guys are all, you can all do this. I'm nothing special, I'm just some goofball from New York. So if I did it, you guys are gonna be able to do it too, right? So you're welcome, you're welcome, Janet. And I, Laurie, I will do more. I'll do it as my schedule allows. It's a little bit difficult because I'm running businesses and stuff, but all right, folks, have a good night, wherever you happen to be. I'll see you next time.