 I would say that I, as I said before, what you audience are in 45 minutes, but we have a six minutes. But still, I'm going to watch you to make sure that you're feeling okay with what you are doing. So I'm going to start off creating partnerships with different actors in the cultural arena in Tunisia, especially the state and through the states, through ministers, through the administrations that run this kind of work that is informal. Actually, I was a freelancer and I preferred to stay as a freelancer to gain some money. And then I had some friends and you're helping each other to work in the other visual domain that needs a lot of people. It's not an individual kind of work. It's more of a group work. Then with time, we discovered that in Tunisia, there was a lot, there were a lot of talents, a lot of competences, especially in the past 10 years. So many people are working in the informal sector. So this informal sector and not being recognized by the state creates some instability, especially on the socioeconomic level and to be able to be paid and to live out of our arts. This is why many of these artists had to leave the arts and go work somewhere else where there is a stable salary. So we started working on this topic and we found ourselves obliged to leave our art aside and work more on management because today we are managing 1,300 freelancers, artists in Tunisia and they produce and have universities and students that produce more than 2,000 graduates in arts per year. So it's very difficult for them to have a salary and to have a fixed salary. So they all try to work in the informal market. So we left our art to work on the management. Since the beginning, we understood that management needs to be done by managers and not by artists. And this is the problem in many associations and organizations in Tunisia because the artists try themselves to manage their work but they rely more on their inspiration and they don't have a clear methodology and an objective one. So the first partner that we tried to find was managers. And we wanted to work in the cultural sector and we wanted other formations for the whole team. We wanted training for our team, trainings on managing, on how to manage a network because we managed the network of freelancers. After that, we went to dig into the management of the network and we found out that we needed to work on different sectors and the economic sector so that we would have the creative economy and cultural economy as well as on the finance because freelancers didn't pay taxes. They had a problem in their invoices and with the state and with social security. So here we have the foreign ministries and the Ministry of Labour. So we started working to find partners from the state. Fortunately in Tunisia it's easy today especially after the revolution to access the ministers and the high officials. As long as our topic is seducing for them and Tunisia after terrorism we found that it was easier for us to find doors that were open. So we tried to convince the ministers and the officials and the administrations of our cause but this changes quickly because the minister stays in the ministry for one year and a half. So we often have a change in our government and in our ministries and it's not something easy. In the beginning it worked for us but now with the second transitional government and we have a new government that is only one month old. So we have to do all the work all over again for three months and we know that the new minister also will not stay long. So we redo this work. This is something that we have to do. It's tiring, it's exhausting but we have to do it. So we have to take this path to be able to find regulations for our work as artists and to be able to live through art and have a stable life. And this is why we've also decided to work only in Tunisia under Tunisian territories. The reason is that because we don't have a lot of means there is not a lot of us and the number of artists is growing very fast so then there will be a risk of losing everything if we were to open ourselves to other foreign partners especially that the laws or the local context is atypical and we cannot create partnerships with other people that are doing the same as us like in Canada we have discussed with many people there but also with English but we don't have the same context when we want for our network to be built on the basis of the characteristics in our country. So we work in the British Council, go to the Institute, the orthography for the training and to have more support for the administration for researchers and for events. So this is everything that I had to say. I can add a bit more later on but I wanted now to respect the five minutes that you gave me. We felt the arts were offering in situations like Syria and others but I want to bring up on this panel is the power that we as artists or we as artists and administrators have to actually effectively change. When I talked to Ahmed and when I talked to Naila I heard similar themes and I think Naila will bring this up as well that we do have the power to chart our future and what I'd like to remind artists when I work with them as an administrator is don't be discouraged with the models that you create they're not readily accepted by the system. The system will not readily accept our new models they will try to reject them because they go against the status quo so I want to thank you Ahmed for setting up the new model and sticking to it. I think you'll also see the panelists today with their various innovations in alliance, building, proposing ecosystems of different ways to work with different partners. I'd also like to ask if there's a burning question if anyone wants to shoot a question up here to Ahmed you'll have this opportunity after your speaker and I can always ask you if you have something you just must know if not we'll move right along to the podium. I really am a speaker as an artist and also maybe as a business director and I'm becoming a more and more kind of cultural manager in the context to where we develop these machines to handle many many things. So we created with other artists that are connected to different than years ago with the need of going and meeting our different audience in this country and the first alliance maybe that is more essentially crucial for us is the alliance with the audience and from that this is our starting point to grow for our projects and in fact we had the chance to go and tour and meet the different realities from one area to another between communities that don't share the same experience the line of experience, the same social and mental realities we had the chance to make partnership around the country and we've grown our discourse our creative propositions in contact with these people and what you mentioned about artists possibly being able to change the context around them I would just add because it's always a question how are we building these partnerships in the trust and the confidence in the relationship of trust and maybe it's as a starting point to be able as well to be changed as well in these encounters and to accept to be the one to be changed by these encounters and yesterday in another subject Rana spoke about funding and the way to create this space of negotiation between funders and other structures I think it's also part of our job as artists to create these spaces where we can express to people that we are also ready to change because they are giving us a lot and they will give us their trust because they will hear this ability also from the movement and respect towards them and build a process of projects proposed and experienced that often it is in encounters so maybe it's a bit general like this but from that we have then led to create the festival that we don't like to call it festival because it's also based on relations human relations between us first and the neighborhood around us where it all started involving the community in this cultural dynamic involving inviting different people to make this happen and to take part in making a free festival or free in a city where it's not so easy and this event became an invitation where people are invited where another relation is proposed that it's not a consumption of art and beautiful performance but where there are people inviting other to share something and to resonate together in this so maybe we can also develop later in the year Wow, these panels serve various duties to the five minutes I was expecting a lot of rule breakers and I had to have a bill or something and Steve Williams said, he said famously we live in a burning building the only thing that will save us is love Gramsci said it a little bit different he said we always die and the year cannot get reborn and we live in a terrible, insurred environment for the only one panel I would suggest that these models that we're presenting are the only people who hold them so again, I encourage you and I would like to hand it over now to you to tell us about your work with O'Connor and the World System So hello, I'm from Turkey and I'm the only one who lives in O'Connor, Turkey I think that means something in a way like how we move from I feel in a state of isolation in many ways because I already used some text before starting my little presentation so Turkey is not in Creative Europe anymore but Turkey's decision I don't know the official declaration of Turkey but it is said that that Creative Europe founded a project which supports the fact that which actually says that says the sacred words like forbidden words are made in genocide so I think that's the reason so we're in a state of emergency so there are a couple of many channels which have been kind of like a cult in the last days so we have some artists in prison etc etc so all the things I said about the region like relations with causes relations with Europe relations with Middle East relations with Balkan regions so Turkey is in the middle of all these things and I'm like questioning myself like which part of the world I belong to and my causes, am I from Eastern my European, am I... they might be from the Balkan region etc so anyway this is like a corner of the world they are like here they are a region and all these regions actually causes Turkey, Middle East, Balkans they are not really connected so the idea of the festival is really connect all these regions to each other they are connected to Europe in many ways but these regions are not connected to each other we believe so we started this festival and just asking to give an example how we create alliances just give an example through our work it's that actually maybe for the first time in Turkey we are breathing different funders like Monkradat, Afak French institutes Dutch consulate and some other institutions so this is like the first time that all these funders from different regions from different neighbors from Turkey come together to fund this project so this is already a good a lot of insight to start with and this year was the focus was on Middle East in our artists so we imagine many artists from Middle East from Wales, from Iraq from Syria and we also imagine artists from Europe where it's origin so this was also like a good starting point to create alliances between different artists and people and as you said actually they are not naming the festival they are like a platform because we want to do more than just organizing the festival we want to create a platform for researchers academicians artists and everyone who are in the region and like going further from the region to other countries like relationship between Europe etc so this is like the main point of the festival it's going on now actually now I'm here, I'm happy at the same time as with this set that I'm meeting my festival festival that's happening right now in Turkey but I find it important actually to talk about my festival too so I don't want to talk more because I don't want to talk 5 minutes but I'm here as artists from the region who want to know more about festival my stuff etc I'll get a rooftop, I'll be everywhere as much as possible as I said I was expecting people to surpass the 5 minutes please feel free to push it to the edge but also we expect that a really lively conversation will follow so without further ado I'd like to head over to Mahmood to tell us a little bit about the work of Afti and some of your work yesterday so why don't you take some examples that weren't particularly important highlighting yesterday when you spoke let me first to say that 2 years ago we have started working on the program on freedom of expression and our association and since then we are thinking about how state is dealing with the creative persons because it's excluding them from dealing with the artists the same goes for the lawyers for instance therefore we started our alliances with cultural centers because it was the first adverse effect of the state's violence against the institutions we have gathered a large number of centers around this coalition and the state started to deal an illegal way with these associations these groups have shown a number of problems unfortunately communication between cultural centers dealing with different kinds of arts is really weak and they are always afraid of talking about their problems in the media in order for the state not to be attacking these associations or these centers and it was impossible for any association to have a legal or a formal situation therefore we started establishing local partnerships and alliances and afterwards we have shed light on a number of problems that for instance this problem was a group or team in Jordan the problem was the following when they wanted to run the celebration the state said hours before that you cannot run your celebration or the festival because you do not have the license so therefore it's very important to have legal support it's not enough for the associations to be communicating one with the other we are in need of legal support legal support is very important because it can contribute in solving some of the problems mainly the granting of licenses and the modalities of granting licenses I will not be saying that everything is optimal and that legal support is always beneficial or effective today cooperation or communication between the association and the state was very important we have started talking about the missions of the Moorid which is a cultural center and how can the association benefit the artists I'm talking here about direct or indirect support for the artists the direct support encompasses following up the cases and the inquiries as well as legal advice as for the indirect support we will be keeping pace with the laws that are promulgated by the state in order to present the possible problems we were talking here about the penal code that considered as that street art is a kind of terrorism and we have to deal with it according to the anti-terrorism law and the same goes for the definition of some kinds of crimes that are not clearly defined therefore we will be able to deal with these laws in a sound manner we have to define a certain clear vision we have to define the categories with which we are going to deal including artists and other players through advertising and through supporting or dealing with the trade unions we are trying to establish such an alliance and I hope that I was beneficial in what I presented. Thank you Thank you Mr. Mahmoud I know I am very important and I would like to thank you Mr. Mahmoud Mr. Mahmoud Mr. Mahmoud Mr. Mahmoud Mr. Mahmoud Mr. Mahmoud So while he does have a safe haven to go to in the near future I believe the fines have counted to near $10,000 that he will have to pay a government before leaving. We know that Mahmoud was forced to stop its activities in Egypt and we see that a regional approach has come from that but we also know that in countries that go through these moments of change, not only Egypt Sudan would also be an example that the government can force all NGOs to re-register and the power of making all NGOs re-register is the power to stop their activities and also to control the international funders who will fund them when they are appropriately registered. I recently spoke to a female activist in the downtown of Cairo and she told me that it was very important to know simple strategies that police would often because she is known come to her door and ask to see her lease. This is also as a dash of sexism in it as well but what she meant to say is, my lease is with my lawyer would you like to go to that office or come here. It was a simple strategy that gave her something to say when this sort of powerful figure shows up at the door at an unannounced hour. Thank you for your work and we'll hear a little bit more later now are you ready to extend the legal discussion? Thank you Hello everyone I am Alforia and I am English good evening I am Naila Jarja I am a lawyer and I will be a brief because I prefer to have a discussion more than giving an intervention practically speaking I want to clarify something I am not a member in any association I am since 2008 2009 when I started working as a lawyer it was important for me to work on cultural policies and I had the chance to work with Hanan and with a group of local associations who started working on the cinema on theater on censorship pre-censorship and both censorship related to the political field we have worked for more than one year and a half and I did not imagine that we have such a number of cultural or artistic works that are put under censorship and I don't think that I think that we have a high level of censorship because we take stock of the aircraft according to which the general security is following some persons or censoring some books or some artistic works it was very important for us to get to know the things we are working on and we established alliances with these associations to work on low projects especially when talking about the pre-censorship and cinema and to regulate the cinema and the theater as well and the press and the media and I think that yesterday we have reanimated this initiative while presenting the low bill through the minister of culture because we have cooperated with him in drafting this law and we hope that when the parliament will be reactivated and will legislate we hope that we will be able to push towards enacting such laws we were also able to deal as Mr. Ted in 2008 a series of laws were published in the cultural sector when he said I have an issue my issue in fact is the cultural sector and contrary to any other sectors in Lebanon there there is no need to enact new laws if we take a look at the laws already existing and I'm talking about political, sorry about cultural policies there is a need to abolish some laws from one side but from the other side since 2008 until now we have a set of laws that if activated cultural policies will be advanced so we do not need like in other sectors the legislator to enact more laws or to take positive steps and what's really strange is that the laws that were enacted in 2008 and contrary to other issues in Lebanon weren't the result of the pressure of civil society or the cultural scholars but it was a kind of bargaining between the two main blocks March 14 March 18 and the MPs did not have any idea about the laws that were enacted or the laws that were passed and they didn't have no idea concerning the laws or the trade unions in Lebanon we have a trust fund for the artists theoretically and in principle the same goes for the law on cultural property that through it we can preserve the material and immaterial heritage I will not be answering these details but I always have question marks concerning the following we have the legal tools concerning the cultural sector but until now things are not moving in a general way so we take individual initiatives and as we have seen with many individual things or individual initiatives are taken but we still cannot say that we have a comprehensive vision concerning the cultural sector in Lebanon I will be brief so I apologize for taking long but I want to start the discussion with the following issue as a lawyer or as a consultant I am not working in an association or in an organization and I prefer to be working with the artists or with the associations to be able to think together on how to build these initiatives or alliances I am not representing a certain part or a certain block but let's all together because I am attached to the law and to the arts at the same time there is a problem in fact we have two problems the first problem no no it's fine it's fine no no it's fine so I think we are facing two problems the first one she is borrowing some minutes from the other speaker I think the first problem is how individuals or cultural associations how do they see the state and especially the minister of culture I know that in Lebanon it's difficult to be defending the state it's not the role I want to play but according to me building alliances is based on mutual interests we have interests from different sites how we can cooperate in order to serve our mutual interests until now we have some difficulties except some initiatives and we refuse to deal with the state to establish a dialogue with the state frankly speaking if you want to talk about cultural policies we have to start with the public sector since we have laws we have to encourage and push the implementation of these laws by the ministry then I wouldn't have been able to work if she did not have a dialogue with the ministry of culture and other relevant authorities she would have been imprisoned and she couldn't make it to have access to the prison so let's think about how can we deal with the ministries we can because if we deal with the ministries they will say that we do not have the critique spirit and we are dealing with an illegal state let's say so let's be smart and how to deal with the state this is from one side from the other side when talking about establishing alliances between inside the cultural sector and Lebanon it's really strange that we have few Lebanese in the room with us unfortunately I don't think that we are thinking as individuals or as groups to establish alliances so from the legal framework 10 years ago and until now we have more than 14,000 NGOs in Lebanon this is a huge number so each 3 individuals establish an NGO they open a bank account and it's done and the cultural sector unfortunately if we take a look at the associations publishing their funding sources we can see that their balance sheet is superior to that of the Ministry of Culture so let's think that we have to shoulder a certain responsibility in drafting the cultural policy when talking about the legal framework NGOs are set of a number of individuals dealing with funding partners in order to be able to launch their activities but we have other legal forms that can feed these alliances until I think about the trade unions, co-operatives and other non-profit organizations that are able through their internal tools or means to protect their mutual interests and ensure the sustainability of the work in order for us not to be relying solely on the funding partners so regardless of the fact regardless if we are dealing with second refugees or not let us distance ourselves from the policy of the funding partners we are forgetting that we have self-sustainable internal tools that we can rely on this is very important I guess I was highly philosophical I think and I apologize thank you thank you and since we are technically in that space right now Zayna I am just going to say that your actors are some of my own prison fantasies I have to admit no ok it is not working but seriously then I thank you for your work and I would like to give you the stage now I am not going to talk I spoke to the I have shown my work so that is getting more time maybe to discuss unless unless you want to know something very important I already I think I summarized what are our partnerships government and you know so I shout at that there is a burning question in my mind since we we find this session and I respond to Julian and now the discussion is burning more in my head what is the difference between the cooperation and the partnership and the alliance I think we should align this in order to really go further I will not pretend to have the answer I have some opinions but what I would like to do I will pick up that answer directly three things Zayna thank you for giving to the floor there will definitely be time to ask Zayna questions about her work one thing I would like to pick up and it is a personal passion is that Zayna you many of the people here on the stage have entered the space of policy making with their work and I truly believe that not only do artists have power but that artists are often policy makers not just that they can be or that they inform policies but that their work can actually affect their policy so I want to just highlight that as an example of what Zayna's work is what I would like to do now is I would like to do a little bit of talking amongst the panelists maybe there's a question that one panelist wants to ask another I will start I have a question for Berju I really feel that you didn't take enough time I might have scared you or I was sitting too close so let me start by asking you a question and I hope Anand that it starts to dig into what you are saying I think one way that one could respond to what you guys have done is our alliance is necessarily the things that happen when money isn't available are they things that happen for solidarity's sake are they things that happen without hierarchies I don't know that that's necessarily true but it's one of the questions I would have the specific question I would like to ask for Berju, especially since we had a session this morning about networks is do you consider a platform political we hear a lot these days the word platform a biennial can be a platform an event can be a platform a website a platform and I'd like to know because I also use that term sometimes if it is a political word and how might it relate to say alliances as Anand has said thank you for the question I think what we do is already very political actually because we take aside we take we have a word like towards the current system let it be the government let it be the current system in the world like the world is breaking, categorizing, labeling us like the states are labeling us the system is labeling us the town givers are labeling us and with our work actually we want to break these labels like as like Kogos' artists, Middle Eastern artists European artists like all these words are labeled for us and actually we want to break them and it's something beyond the system I believe so it's political according to me like whatever we do now we so resistance is political anyway so I think we have like a high political stand in our world I don't know if it answers your question but like what we do is always very revolutionary I don't say that we are doing like a grave the biggest thing in Turkey but in this current state of life let's say in Turkey like bringing all these people from different parts of the region and creating all these networks alliances I don't really have a perfect entry for you as well but for me an alliance is like a sustainable long term cooperation I believe like for example just to give an example like as we are collaborating with French institutes they won't give us like huge amount of money but they understand the value of our work and they kind of support us in putting us in different networks suggesting us to different kind of organizations and giving creating space for us and connecting us with different groups of people so I think it's a good alliance for us if I'm not wrong to describe the alliance I'd like to keep that question just I see a hand in the back I'm going to keep it up here on the stage for just a moment longer and as I asked because I do use the project that I make and so follow I use the word platform to describe it and that's why I wanted to ask that question but also I think that there is I do consider I guess maybe accepting to moderate this panel I interpret alliance as a political thing I interpret it as the thing you do with or without funding we often are in these situations where partnerships are only activated when funding happens and personally speaking and I hear it in what Berger just said that there are things that we must do without funding and that maybe that's one way to care about the alliance but let's hear from some of the other folks on the panel and if anyone wants to speak to alliance the term then we'll go to break it open to the whole world I want you to agree that just like you use the features like more discussion like so now I have one more comfortable thinking actually you know like you said political I think breaking as like breaking like current system of funding relationship is always a very political item for example in my work I question always like I was pressed to add a bit of mobility but for example for bringing a Lebanese artist to Turkey from Lebanon more difficult than bringing a Lebanese artist who is in France so for example the question in mind of people is very important for me like for an Armenian coming to Turkey it's more difficult than bringing an Armenian who is in United States to Turkey or things like challenging all these kind of people like these people living there these origin people coming from this region, that region so yeah I think what I do, what we do is political and which means a lot of solidarity among people beyond states I think because like for example creative Europe we are not in anymore but does it mean that we don't we can't really cooperate with European people of course we can but how so that's the question Thank you. Anyone else want to think to the alliance before we hand it over to the crowd? It's all and I think that this is essential because when we clarify things this will have an impact on the strategy we are using in order to apprehend things especially on talking about alliances with official parties you will have to be able to convince the ministry of culture about the not only about the content the importance of the content but you have to convince the ministry that if they work with you they will be practically giving a positive image through the ministry and through its place as a political or an official authority this is tactically speaking this is very important and this is highly beneficial if we are thinking about how a certain group would be lobbying in favor of changing laws Hasanan I will continue from where you stopped about the partnerships and mobility of artists and also about what you said about partnerships with the state as if it was a conspiracy or something negative microphone please yes especially with all what's happening today there is like a war between our wills, NGOs and society I would like to invite you to think about this topic why have partnerships against and not partnerships for because it's said that it's the state that is supposed to be sometimes forbidding the artists from mobility but partnerships could be based on conventions, based on agreements and you lawyers you know about this and we can have also informal partnerships like relationships between human beings human beings that are working in the state in a way that this artist is not presenting a danger is not a risk and they will not be feeding the dispute but I'm narrating the landscape the artistic landscape so this is kind of an elastic work it's kind of a therapy with these people that are sometimes considered as being as being psycho-rigid but in reality these are human beings just like us that have also other objectives or different objectives but I think that we can work on this point and we can this can have many advantages for the freedom of the artists for their mobility without having to be confronted with these people but through creating partnerships with them in the background I have a question, a very important question that I always ask to myself when we started working a year ago when we were working in the street art and we thought about what if something happened to us in the streets what would we do so we decided to work on the policies and laws that regulate the artistic and the public space so we decided to create an alliance with the institutions that have an experience in this regard so that if something bad happened to any of us we would have this kind of solidarity this way we would see what we need and what we are able to present to the decision makers when we got to a phase where both studies were done we tried to find decision makers to present even the person who was in charge of the Human Rights Committee in Egypt he resigned because if he was to give any statement he was going to be sent to jail so we had only the Ministry of Defence in front of us so we had only the we could only meet with the Minister of Defence Leila and by the British soldiers you could also speak about the virginity test that we heard about now in Egypt what would be done to you so imagine what could have happened if we went to the Ministry of Defence so for me alliance means to do something to be able to protect each other or maybe if something happened to one of us then maybe we could have but what happened a month ago after the alliance after both studies were published after the campaign on the social media I stayed waiting in the airport for one hour and this is something new and there are also experiences like we find for example kids in the streets they did some videos they were sent to the prison and we couldn't do anything for them so the question is to which extent through these alliances will you be able to change not even to change to be in solidarity with each other if something bad happened to any of us and if any of you had a problem in Egypt and you were able to do something about it through solidarity if you speak about it I know that things are different in Lebanon you have freedom you have decision makers even if you're not able to reach something but anyway in Egypt we don't even speak about it because if we speak about it it means danger and risk on our lives thank you Thank you Thank you Hello I want to say that I think we are we are interested in international international relations and so on but there is an issue that this separation put us in our position to escape a bit our social responsibility because at the end all governments are accountable versus SDGs social development goals including human rights that are part of government goals and criteria and every country is accountable versus those goals to show development and I think that we have we consider our relationships with governments and also to realize back again that the government is looking for official cultures and so on they hold our rights from taxpayers' money all those issues we are we put on the side because it's easier because we know that the clash of the government would kill us but this doesn't mean that we shouldn't be reconsidering and re-considering our relationship with governments yes ok sure so Alma, Syria, Canada Mocha of Egypt and she's asking can you say your name where you're from just so we have a context as if to what I heard from the artists in the past two days because we heard that governments are in one place and artists are totally different place so is it that we're not really examining the laws maybe we have prejudices when we speak about the ministry of culture and what it represents as a body meaning it's not giving the artistic institutions the right or maybe there are laws but we have this prejudice and prejudices and we don't know about them like for example in your movie I saw ministry of justice not ministry of culture ministry of justice so at least there is one of the ministry so should we maybe be more aggressive as art institutions for example in Lebanon as an example is it required to demand that the laws be implemented so that the more rights are given to art institutions and to artists or are the laws anyway unjust you said that sometimes you say to people you pass this for me and I'll pass this for you but maybe goods are laws and not implemented or there are bad so this is the question this is the question if I can answer it directly then maybe you can answer me so I also I also have a comment about the alliance alliance should be with people with whom I share a vision and can protect me because if I am to build an alliance with the ministry the ministry can meet me at a certain point but they can also harm me so I need partnership and alliance with people with whom I have a common vision, a shared vision, a shared path and a path that protects us so that we can protect each other and remain in solidarity with each other and I'm not sure if this can happen with the ministries so if I am to speak to the government or ministry sub-sets you say that we need to have a shared vision if we're in an alliance I don't want to get hooked up on the semantics of it all I would also like to say that probably some of us who do work with governments believe that there's a sub-sets necessity that we are actually accessing power that we might not otherwise have and that we don't by working with the ministry therefore agree with everything the ministry is otherwise doing so I don't know what the answer is whether we must have a shared vision or whether we might use or subvert a power regime to access power that we wouldn't otherwise have it's a great question we can keep it in the air are there other questions in the room did you say you're from Cote d'Ivoire yes I'm from Cote d'Ivoire but I'm a a jury ok thank you very much Dana your approach it's really amazing because you use arts to implement public reforms and we're not all multilateral partners today to implement reforms they drew a matrix of reforms and they say to the country you have to implement physical forms if you want to get alone it's the case of the African where I work so you gave me a very good idea to maybe to have a new approach to implement the reforms which reforms are also appropriated by the authorities and the civil society my question is what is your relationship with the European Union because the mandate also of the European Union is to implement public reforms is this idea yours or is it originally from the European Union and do you think that if you haven't the support of the European Union you could implement this reforms this laws okay because we are 10 to 6 right now just give me one second just one second what I'm going to start doing now is starting with Zina I'm going to ask each of the panelists to move this way and give some final remarks that will take us right up until 6 o'clock we're going to drink on the roof tonight we don't have to finish it in this room so don't stress I'll do a last sweep of remarks and then I'll ask Rana and Natasha to come up and we'll right at 6 o'clock we'll make a special very brief announcement you'll love it okay so no the subject of the theme of the project they are not the ones they just you know they would say one more proposal for human rights subjects you know let's say catharsis would present I don't know I don't know another NGO would present for Syrian women blah blah blah but there are donors to approach us hi we need a project this for the other NGOs would take these dictatorship donations because they have a agenda and they want you to fill them I always said I'm happy to go for someone who would be your big student and do it, I hate this and if our agenda fits the agenda of the donors and it would be great but I don't like my donors that approaches you they have to just teach how they have money to disperse and let's finish with it okay but you asked also if the EU were helpful because we have the EU as donors we started in 2009 in 2008 definitely with all the refusal from the government refusal after refusal to do projects having the EU back then in 2008 had a bit not much, but it's very helpful it's just like she said you go, you're not donors, you have coffee then you have coffee, then you have coffee then you're not the donor of the other political party and the other political party and the other political party it's so silly to meet them like this person and then you get there to understand that you are not politicized yourself and that you're not this one against this one this one against this one and this one against this one and the approaches just like that and I always approach them telling them what's in it for them so we want to have a job against them just like that you asked me clearly I'm very very sad for what's happening in Egypt so sad an answer for you if we do something will anything change? I don't know maybe the style that we're using in our association is that I go to them and I tell them what they will gain from it so we have to show them what's the advantage for them to be able to have theater inside the prison some people really had to sign for example I knew that some people would like to be on three different TV channels so I facilitated this for one of the persons they don't care about your project they don't care about it at all so know how to play it so it's that dirty but I'm sorry that's it at times without governments we're dealing with the virus everywhere so behind these kids playing around one to have a chocolate one to have a lot of shit how will they deal with it ok? and get what you want and what your society wants thank you also just to remind is there a last remark so if you want to answer one of the questions that was noted but also to say the last thing that you said thank you because in some places this could be the conclusion for Lebanon really I'm speaking only about Lebanon because you already have the laws I don't know what it means to go to the minister of culture in Egypt or in any other country but in Lebanon because we're that divided and there is not only one dictatorship there are different dictatorships there are at least 10 or 12 you can divide them and you can get this at the detriment of the other of the other but at the expense of the other but for alliances I think that alliances are temporary and punctual so if I feel now right now that if we work together we have mutual interest positive mutual interest then partnership where both parties will melt and a new entity is created now in an alliance we have two entities that agree that if they work now this would be beneficial for both of them this is why when I spoke to Hanan and I told them now we have a minister of culture that has a legal background and this is something beneficial to us some and he declared since before that he had a problem with censorship being imposed to cinema and theater because it's done by the general security so we took advantage of this we told him you said that so help us to work on a draft law so we didn't go to one of the MPs so to be able to create an alliance we need to share the vision I worked a lot with organizations and associations sometimes there are people inside the board and they don't have one shared vision so if you want two associations to agree on the same vision it's not something wrong this is really something rich and plural and you shouldn't have the same vision or it would be a problem the last thing I wanted to tackle I forgot what it was I don't know if I was able to answer some of your questions thank you thank you can I add something to conclude I think that partnership is a strategic question we need we all need to go into the depth of this topic to see how it should be done like Hanan has said and I personally think that we need to see different experiences before creating partnerships there are two types of partnerships to create whether partnership against a common enemy or creating partnerships for one objective I always prefer the second type of partnerships thank you thank you Ahmad I don't want to be isolated so please I just want to say thank you for inviting me and please invite us write us and talk to us we need each other and we need this solidarity to continue working in our country generally I would say thank you thank you my English is too poor for me partnerships alliances associations solidarity entries are all the vehicles the necessary vehicles that we need to have in a world and a society that is fragmented that is divided we are in front of people building walls, frontiers, borders censorship if as the artists the cultural operators if we don't do something then no one will do it where if we're not here to generate these meetings that are more proposed by society it means that we are surrendering so we need to build long-term visions we need to feed something we need to have something to propose that is a coming generation and this is our audience we think for them about the politics cultural policies for them and this is the essence of what we need to propose so we need to go back to the source but for me I would like to say that these alliances and this solidarity should be permanent just like I speak for example in the concierge here in the station to ask something to our neighbors when we have a festival so it should be done on all levels or else if we're alone as artists we won't be able to do anything so we need to try and rebuild organic series, organic chain so that we would have a responsibility each of us on their own level to build our society to build a change in our society we are responsible and we need to find fruits for that thank you yes it is strongly political of course I don't want to be alone I think that what Mohab mentioned is very important he clarified to which extent the alliances are important we have sometimes the problem itself and then a partnership is created for example if we have a collective problem so when someone wants to take someone into jail then we find some kind of thinking to create a partnership and what Mohab said that there is only another side of it and it's the topic in general we had a problem with kids in streets and I had the honour of defending them in the beginning they arrested Aziddin Khaled Muhammad a person who had made a video, they were actually doing videos as long ago from the streets it was of course related to the state whether to people who are pro-state or against the state and of course he was against the state he was with the brotherhood so the state or the government arrested Aziddin so it was important since the beginning that the artists would all say something about it since the beginning like what happened with Karik Karteris Dawish since the beginning, since he was arrested all the artists spoke about it and here social media was really important and influential so then he was released and when the four others were arrested things changed and this was said to me by a person who worked at the prosecutor's office in the beginning he said it's okay, they will be released but when they came back again to prison because they stayed first for 100 days then this time was renovated, was renewed so I said to them why are you doing this that inside they're not inciting for any demonstration they're just speaking about the situation in the country whether you like it or not so they told me that they will be then opening to the other young people to do the same so being building alliances as essential this is what I touched myself so that we can go to the second level if we want to speak about the level that we have now this is what the state wants and they will come out of prison if they agree not to speak about the situation in general and if they say that they will not collaborate with anyone then yes they can leave but if they decide to speak in general to make studies to write an article about what happened and of course with them in a different way but they will have a greater impact on the art in Egypt and on the creative work that you have in Egypt this will be something very important I apologize if I was wrong but I need also to say something else all these legislations or all this not only what is said is influential there is another legislation another legislation that wasn't mentioned we found it in the Gazette in the official Gazette there is a new law that tackles specifically the artists what does it say it says that if you go to any archaeological place and you take photographs they put new new penalties you can pay up to 30,000 pounds and this is a big amount of money so only to go inside an archaeological place to take a certain shot or to take certain photography then you have to pay for it 30,000 pounds so the big producers they can pay 30,000 pounds of course they have no problem with it they spoke about love in the second part meaning that life will continue and some people find compromises with the state but what will the underground artists do and other kinds of artists and no one spoke about this new law yet I'll try to do as much as I can but I can do everything on my own I hope that other people also will be interested in this more more lawyers that were in solidarity with us and this was a good indicator there were lawyers that were defending those who were in the demonstrations but they're also now interested in what's happening and they have understood what the state is doing now thank you very much we'll have your question also start with me and maybe think of words like mutual support societies solidarity societies where we take the preventative or proactive step in certain situations when we know the state can lash out to us to let people know that we might mean that if danger or a situation comes our way what we're about to announce my colleagues are here and I'll give a little bit of an intro about an alliance that can help keep artists safe that can be reactionary when an artist is in danger again, go up to your point there was a case of an artist in Uganda a few years ago and some of us who work on artist safety we knew that he had been taken away we knew that he was in prison and it was a weekend it was that if we were not reactive within 72 hours that we would not know where he would be after the weekend so if I may use the word alliance those trans-pression organizations that got together worked with the diplomatic corps we all said, who do we know who do we know in the diplomatic corps specific to Uganda there was the Irish ambassador amongst our group and we specifically asked the Irish ambassador to contact people in the government to ask about this case now we don't know if it saved his life or saved him from being put in a deeper prison than the one he was already in but what we do know is that sometimes going back to what Alma and others were saying is that we can engage parts of the government even if we were parts of say the broader space of diplomacy without needing to wholly sign on to what they are about to say so without further ado just a minute I'm going to stand up yes very quickly, we know you're tired we know you're ready to dream but I'll just set up, we have three slides behind this it's not a big powerpoint I'm already in May some of you were here we had a meeting here that was called Artists Against All Odds Julianne, Marianne several of you several of you in the room I won't name you all but I'll forget some where's Daniel how could I forget we were here and we discussed what we might do specific in the context of this region and over a few months some of us have come together to put together an alliance that hopes to have some responses that are someone Taylor made for the region if I could switch here behind me you see that there are four members of this, Alma Oryd, Dan Stiglidge Patti and my own organization Artists Safety Net if we could switch to the next slide I like the way these logos lined up but I'm not speaking for Alma Oryd, Patti or Dan Stiglidge when I give these six points but I'm showing what Artists Safety Net is about to do what we've invited the other organizations to help us do with the regional focus and that is that given the last 10 years and the opening of the hearts of arts administrators and human rights defenders and various organizational forms we have a real moment where there are more safe spaces for artists around the world I would say the Syrian conflict alone has opened up arts in a moment a colleague here in the room from Berlin asked me just before the session what one might do if they had a space that they wanted to activate as a safe space the sixth point that I give here is a six month online training that we will work together with the organizations to convene it is comprised of art spaces all over the world it's a small cohort of up to 25 from Santiago, Quito Sao Paulo Beirut etc I'll hand over now to Rana to tell a little bit about the Alma Oryd project because we hope through this collaboration to this alliance to include five or more art spaces in this region in this training that is located in Arabic Spanish, French other languages so we gathered in May several stakeholders artists and friends in the Arab region and what is I think very important to stress is that by then and still now it is really an alliance in the making so it is really to really tap in opportunities there are networking that we really know that this is another process and we are making very quickly about like in May we had several recommendations that we can present to anyone who is interested and we kind of focus on three level dangers so the preemptive stage what can we do we have the simple things that I will tell like what really has been initiated over the last couple of months a stage of danger so which really acts for immediate action and then there is also the post-danger stage whether it is in the Middle East or here or anywhere internationally and then that is also I think a very important stage as we have already so many migrants scattered everywhere and then how also we can definitely to all of our know how and networks with the local scenes with the companies that make them enable them to really continue the work as hard as they are not just being forced to maybe collaborate with some local artistic projects that really are very natural in three days but that is what helps them enable them to be able to do that Thank you Natasha The other one is about about thoughts of having a swift reaction in an attempt to protect actors or artists at risk in the Arab region and the statement I will go back to two key terms alliance equals solidarity in this case why because we started from the fact that we as individuals are under threat are at risk maybe not now but in two years in two months, in two years in the future how can we protect others while we are at risk the only solution was to establish such an alliance with a set of stakeholders the stakeholders who are eager to support us and because they have a long history and a long experience this is our first attempt in establishing an emergency fund so the round table was a call to help for institutions and creative associations to support the region thank you Natasha said three stages preemptive when there is a risk and after the risk or the danger at this stage we are tackling four issues funding establishing a fund to deal with issues that have a direct impact on the artists who are at risk and who are in their country or in a neighboring country maybe if one artist in Yemen if he goes to Jordan maybe he will still be under at risk so this fund aims at ensuring a safe haven and a safe environment for artists and cultural actors and players in order to get rid of this danger and to swift towards a more a safer haven this is temporary this is a temporary responsibility because we are not the ministry of foreign affairs and we are not the ministry of interior we cannot grant the artist the refugee status but we can support through networks establishment the safe environment for these artists this is a breathing space for these artists I think that we have experienced such situations when we had to flee from some danger the second part is very important which is very important is the knowledge by artists of the best techniques to adopt when they are at risk and we are focusing here on the artist especially artist safety net and other relevant institutions and we will start working on a database in an attempt to establish networks between the artists in the Arab region with networks that can help them in case of any danger what we have we say what we don't have to say and others we also have the legal part led by the institution for thought and freedom of expression aiming at establishing a legal Arab front which has different goals first of all to increase awareness and legal knowledge by artists so whenever the artists are attacked by any other by any security force or by the state they will have to know their rights and obligations and there should be pressure and lobby in order to develop and amend legislation and laws and there is an attempt to establish an international network including associations and artistic trade unions and I got to know at least 10 associations during this meeting that can play a role leading role mainly I'm talking here about European institutions and that can play the role of mediator between the artists who is living in another country and the audience the media and the audience I don't know if we can call it a platform or a movement or a program but nevertheless we are raising our works on establishing partnerships in order to reach a common ground so there will be lots of questions and we do we invited the European instrument of democracy and human rights to be with us here in May and let me give you one of the most perverse statistics that you'll hear in the human rights world the value of a life one year relocation fox ended around 60,000 euros in the art world the biggest fellowship ever the artist protection fund fox ended 30,000 dollars in the rest of gender and activist over twice as much as we're able to do in the art world isn't that a shame but the challenge that people that gave me from this stage today Marianne gave me many of us gave it is that there are a lot of things we can do I also forgot to mention that I don't know if we're also in our meeting in May we have the last slide it's my last attempt to be funny this is this is to invite you that there's more space that the alliance is not closed this is not effective we've already figured out we do need your help we do see the mobility in this region to other parts of the world and that figuring out me, all of us sometimes just figuring out who's the smartest lawyer in those areas sometimes just a bird the norm to make space for the artist when they're in need as a subset of humanity the very last thing I'd like to do is to thank ATM I think what's naming the theme of free expression and having the online campaign that accompanies this physical satellite did for the meeting in May was it allowed us to have some continuity but it also brought a lot of new faces just to our door to make the engagement slide so thank you ATM and good night session in the station of course we don't call the late night drinks session I just want to give a warm warm applause for everyone who might have this invitation thank you Nabi thank you