 Hello beautiful people everywhere, what is it like to experience mania? What happens to your life? How do you cope? How do you learn to live again? These important questions and many more are answered by my guest and friend Holger in this interview. Please stay watching until the end and let him know in the comments how much he appreciates him sharing his story. Enjoy. Hi Holger, how are you? I was looking forward to your interview to be honest. Yeah me too, I'm excited. It's a long time. So I listen to us know where you are, where are you at the moment Holger? I'm at home in Germany south of Stuttgart. Nice, very good. So you're not too far away from where I was born Holger? In Altena, not too far away from there. Yeah, well maybe in European kilometers it's a long way but in Australian distances it's very close by. So I wanted to interview you so people could hear your story, your very unique story because you got diagnosed with schizoaffective disorder. That's right. How long ago? Well that was probably in 1995. My first diagnosis was bipolar disorder. And then another psychiatrist thought it was more like schizoaffective disorder. In 1995, so you've been with this for a while but I have to say that you have, I'm not sure if that's your whole life story but I would consider you very high functioning. Like you've been able to manage workloads. I mean where we met was in the mental health system. You were a support worker at the time, am I correct? Yes, that was in 2010. Yeah, and you came to one of the trainings and we met and then you came to some other trainings. So we've had an opportunity to form a relationship and a friendship over the years. And I'm curious because I've never asked you about your story. So I knew that you had some mental health challenges to overcome. But we never had the opportunity to sit down and say hey tell me your story. And this is that opportunity now. So 1995 you could diagnose but tell us a little bit more about Holger. Where were you born? Your family, what's important to you about your past? Yeah, I was born in 1960 in South East Germany, which is coitling in south of Stuttgart. I was born and raised there and I became an electrician later on electrical engineer. And yeah, I worked for a few years as an engineer and then quit my job to migrate to Australia. That was in 1992, in February exactly. So about 30 years ago. Were you feeling unwell by that time before you made that decision or did that come after? No, I was alright. I never knew anything about mental illnesses before I came to Australia. And yeah, I had no idea what depression was or anxiety or mania, whatever. What was your motivation to move to Australia? It was a long plan. It was actually my ex-wife's dream, to be honest. I joined in and I said okay, let's do it. Alright, so you were following somebody else's dream? Yeah, which is not always a good idea. And now she's an ex-wife. That's interesting too. That's how life goes, doesn't it? I mean, yeah, I've had a very checkered story like that too. So great and you arrive in Australia and what happened? Australia was in the middle of a recession. I didn't realize that when I was in Germany. And the unemployment rate doubled within two weeks after our arrival. So there was no chance of getting a job as a new Australian. Yeah, and so that people know a little bit of the context. At the time in the early 1990s, if I remember correctly, we had an inflation of 18%. 18% is the interest rates. The banking interest rates were 18%, which is huge. But yeah, we did have it pretty bad in the early 90s. You found it hard to get work? Yeah, actually I had to learn how to do job hunting and how to apply for jobs, which is different from Germany. Apart from that, I didn't have to apply for jobs in Germany, I just got them. I had connections. Alright, and also you must have been good at what you do. Am I, is that right? I guess, yeah. Yeah. When you move to another country, you haven't proven yourself in that country. What did you find in your search for work? What was the context for you? Could you rephrase it? So what I mean, I mean, what was the experience like having to go for work? How did that impact you? I had very low self-esteem when I came to Australia. I was very self-confident. Was that when you arrived in Australia or were you okay in Germany? I was okay in Germany. It happened after my arrival. I suddenly became anxious and I lost my drive and energy. I thought I was sad and I didn't know what was going on. What did you put that down to? Oh, later on I found out it was a depression. Sure, but you were not depressed before you arrived. So, and then you didn't have a work and you had to look for work and you were in the middle of a recession when you arrived. So there were a few social things happening, right? Sure, that ended up being a depression, right? It was just being anxious about my future and the anxiety is the basics of mental illness, I guess. Yes, yes, fear. That's how it starts, fear actually, yeah. And then you got diagnosed with depression. That came later on. It has a bit of a story before I became diagnosed. I was desperate for work and I tried to set up a business, small business, working from home. Yeah, because I was depressed, I didn't succeed. It just didn't work. Then in August 1992, I went to a Sydney boat show in Darling Harbor. And I was talking to a few business people. And I suddenly came up with three different business ideas. Wow. And I thought, oh, I'm back on track. Cool. And I went back on the next day and talked to one of the business people and said, I want to get into business with you. Set up a charter agency for sailing catamorans on the harbor. Nice. And talked to another owner of a boat. So I had two boats to offer. And I paid a deposit for a little speed boat. I went to another place. I think Nelson Bay it was. I found a charter boat, a small charter boat. And I thought, oh, that's perfect for my fleet. So I paid another deposit for sailing catamaran. Right. And I kept going. I was working from 5am until midnight every day. Okay. Until I crashed. And I didn't know what was going on. I suddenly lost all my energy, my drive, my confidence. And a friend of mine took me to the doctor and he diagnosed bipolar disorder. And that's when I started to learn about mental illnesses. I read a book. I was going through leaflets and brochures. And I realized I was manic when I went to the boat show. You self diagnose as manic. At least you realize that you were manic, right? Yeah. And I was, I knew I was depressed before after my arrival and depressed when I crashed. What was your internal, besides the depression? I mean, you, you spoke before about your lack of confidence. What happened to the confidence then? I just lost all my beliefs and succeeding in a business. And I couldn't sell myself anymore, which was easier before. And, and you've got this business half started. I invested about 10 grand in, in advertising and equipment. Yeah. And I dropped the business. I didn't want to do it any longer. You lose a lot of money. Yeah. How was your wife with all of this? She wasn't happy. Yeah. So I had to move out. I moved away from my wife and kids. To kids. Yeah. That's where the anxiety came from. I was responsible to feed a family. Yeah. Yeah. It's huge. How old were they? Three and five. Oh, Jesus. So total is a huge responsibility. Yeah. Yeah. It was a bit too much. Were you able to speak English as well as you do now? Or how? I had school English. I had to learn the Australian accent and slang. It is a little different. Yes. When I arrived in Australia, I arrived with the school English as well. And I was saying, how do you do? How do you do? Which for English people, that's fine for Australians. How are you getting me? That's the best. That's what I was getting back. And I didn't know what they were talking about. So it's a huge cultural shift. So I guess one question that I have in, in, in my head. You, okay. Do you see your, your social context as impacting your, your mental health issues? Or, or even causing them? Or do you see something else as causing the mental health issues? I think it was separation. That was impacting me. Separations from my family in Germany, from France, colleagues. Right. The whole network here. It's a safety net. It's huge, isn't it? So sometimes you need to migrate. You need to go to a different country to understand the, how important does the social networks are. Yeah. You have an appreciation for, for friends and family. And, and then your own family breaking down. That could not have been very helpful at all. I would imagine. No, that actually I became really ill after I separated from my family. I had one day I had a full-blown mania, a panic attack and psychosis at the same time. I thought I was dying. Wow. Wow. Must have been very scary. Yeah. Well, how did you handle that? I went to see the doctor. And who started treating me. And I lost my job. And I moved back from the country to the city to Glee. I went to a backpacker's hostel and I was actually having a great time with all these happy backpackers. It's contagious. Yeah. That sounds good. Was that the solution? For a few months. For a few months. I was okay for a few months. But I decided to go back to Germany to send my furniture with a container to Sydney. To my ex-wife. And I went back to Germany to send my furniture. Except for one chair. Right. And my personal belongings. I ended up staying for the whole year in Germany. I found a job. How was your mental health during that year? I was, I was all right. The treatment was really good. And I was happy. I was a happy person back in Germany. I found a job. I found love. Right. So life was good looking good. Yeah. But I had to return to Australia to see my kids. Otherwise I would have lost my visa. Right. So I went back at the end of 94. With the intention to work for a hand glider manufacturer in Sydney. And I got the job straight away. Which was my first dream job. Congratulations. And is that the end of the story? No. I changed career after a few years. I was working with tele machines. And in the coffee industry as a service technician. And in 2005. I attended a weekend seminar with a coaching company. And that changed my life. I did another seminar. And I gradually recovered. Decided to become a coach myself. The training. And set up a coaching practice. And that's when I became a peer support worker. And that's when I met you. Yeah. It was the mental health first aid course, which I did. That's correct. Yes. Yeah. It was a good meeting. Yeah. And I was going to ask you by that time. Were you, were you on medication? No. Were you on medication? No. No. And I was going to ask you by that time. Were you, were you on medication? Or were you in treatment or therapy? Or were you. I was still on medication. I was seeing a psychiatrist regularly. But I was able to drop lithium. And I didn't have any. I had one mood swing after that. But I was okay. After that one would swing. Yeah. I was all right. I was able to work full time. I was able to work full time. Look after other people as a peer support worker. So what happened to your, to your relationship? You have to, you parted. You parted ways when you left Germany to come and see your kids. The relationship in Germany. Yeah. That was pretty sad. Yeah. I was really suffering now when I came back to Australia. But I was able to work full time. Look after other people as a peer support worker. So what happened to your, to your relationship? You have to, you parted. I was able to work full time. But I recovered. I met other women. We are still friends. Good. Good. Yeah. And yeah. All right. So how, what, what do you make of all this? I mean, where are you at now? In your, in your recovery? I mean, I know that you, that you have work now, your work. Yeah. You have a coaching business as well. Yes. I set up another practice. In Germany at home, working from home. I call myself a recovery coach now. And peer support worker. I do both peer support and coaching. Brilliant. Do people understand what recovery means in, in Germany, or do you have to educate them? It's, I have to educate them. It's, it's fairly new. Germany is a bit behind. It comes to recovery. Yeah. So the medical model is pretty strong. The medical model, you said. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It is the same that you have behind you. Is that from, from your coaching philosophy? Oh, that's actually the benefit from my self help group. I'm also running a social group together with another two participants. Brilliant. Good. And what does it say? It says help someone else to cross the river with this boat. And you will reach the other show as well. Nice. That is a very important thing of the recovery journey. Isn't it? The idea of. Start focusing on helping others. Yeah. And that has got a healing effect on yourself. That's a very important one. It does. Yeah. And it's important. It is their boat. It's not my boat. So you're a guest on the boat. Yeah. Like we are guests on your boat today. You're telling us your story. So we're guests. Yeah. So how, what, what impact do you see that? Schiz effective disorder. You identify with that, with that diagnosis. Schiz effective disorder. Yeah. I think it's, it's quite accurate. I'm. I think it's, it's quite accurate. I have mood swings or I used to have mood swings. And I was able to develop a psychosis. In any. Kind of mood. When I was up or down, it didn't matter. Thank you. That's, I think the difference between bipolar disorder. And Schiz effective disorder that. People with bipolar there. Become psychotic when they are really high. When they have a full blood mania. But I was able to become psychotic when I was down as well. What do you, what do you feel that you have missed out on? Because of your mental health issues over the years. Or maybe you feel like you've missed out on anything. Maybe it has added to you. Yeah. Both. I mean, I missed out on money. I mean, I missed out on money. I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I missed out on money on income. That's material. I'm glad that you say that because a lot of people don't think about that. That impact on people with mental health issues, how much money we lose over the decades that we have been impacted by that. And it's almost impossible to recover from that financial impact. Yeah, that's true. Yeah. I mean, I lost, I lost my family. I lost my role as a father. But that door closed, but 10 doors opened. And I wouldn't have experienced or experienced without separation. Have you lost contact with your kids or are they still around? Oh, we, we are in touch with WhatsApp and Facebook. Nice. Are they in Australia? Yeah, in Australia. Yes. And what else? So money, family relationships, career, career, you feel that it's impacted. Yeah. But I learned a lot about myself. Tell us about that. What, what nuggets of wisdom did mental health bring you? Um, that I'm quite flexible and adaptable. Yes, you are. What else? But what, what do you think people that, that are listening to you, that have got an interesting, an interesting, your story, they need to know. Yeah. What happens when I tell my story to people who have a history of mental illness, they, they changed the way of thinking they, they actually, they have more hope that happened to me recently. When I had a new client, we had a meeting just to get to know each other. And she said after the meeting, something happened already, just by listening to you. That's beautiful. Yeah. That's very encouraging. Encouraging and humbling as well. Isn't it? Yeah. Yeah. That's very nice. So basically you got invited to her boat. Yeah. And that helped her along too. Yeah. That's good. So, what advice would you have for a person first, for a person that is suffering from anxiety, depression, or mental health issues? What would you tell them? What would you like to, what message would you like to give them? But tell them to focus on their strengths. And become self confident. Also to become aware of their dreams. Follow their dreams. And set goals. All right. How would they do that if they're not feeling confident already? How would they go about that? I can help them to gain confidence. I've got a sheet of paper to work with. And that usually works. So I will get that link off you and put it in the description of the video later on so people can go and get a list, that list of you. Yeah, it's unfortunately it's in German language. Can you translate it? Yeah. At least they can get in contact with you. Yeah. It's very simple. It's very simple. There's not much to it. But I don't want to describe it now. All right. But the idea is clarify your goals, make sure you clarify your journey and have something to live for. Find out something. Because at the moment they're probably not feeling like there's anything to live for, to be honest. Yeah. But that's with a coach, with a certain technical process, people can clarify, can get a sense of where they want to go next. And that can be very healing. Is that correct? Yeah. So it's important to write your dreams down on a piece of paper and visualize your dreams regularly. Okay. Because dreams do come true that way. Okay. Even if it takes time at work. Yeah. Yeah. It's a good investment. I agree. That's very true. I agree. Those dreams can come true. And they do come true if you clarify them on a regular basis. Yeah. Very true. What about for people that have got loved ones that have been diagnosed with bipolar or depression, schizoaffective disorder? What message would you like to tell parents or uncles or daughters or friends that have got loved ones in that situation? I would recommend not to stigmatize, stigmatize people who have a mental illness. And just accept them. What do you mean by that specifically? How would they be stigmatizing them? Avoid talking about mental illness to other people. To actually to hide them. To ask them to hide their illness. To not be embarrassed of them. Yeah. And what else can they do? What else can they do to be helpful to them? Is there something they can do? Do you feel? Or just to accept, accept them the way they are. But isn't that kind of a problem that they have a mental health issue? Might be hard for them to accept them exactly how they are. What do you mean by that? I found that when I came back to Germany, that people are not open for mental illnesses, not as open as Australians. And I was stigmatizing myself. So I was like so myself separate from the rest of the society. Does that mean what you would recommend people to make sure that they include them? Yes, inclusion. That's the key word there. Key word. Include them in what you're doing. Make sure that you engage them. Make sure that they know that you love them. You know, it's funny how often we go through life. And we don't tell people enough. Necessarily that we're thinking of them or that we love them. Or sometimes we don't, we forget to reach out, you know, and say, hey, I'm still around. How are you doing? I may not be in touch very often, but I love you. I'm here. You know, that kind of connect. That's important. Good. I actually work for an inclusion company. An inclusion company. Yeah. There's people with and without disabilities. Great. Which is a good environment. You like the company. Yeah. Meaning is very important, isn't it? For recovery. Yeah. It is. Thank you very much for sharing your story with us. I will put the link to your page or website or whatever link you give me in the description. And I'm sure that people, as they listen to your story with us, they'll be able to share their stories with us. And they'll be able to share their stories with us. And I'm sure that people, as they listen to your experience, they can get a bit of an insight of the impacts of mental health issues on people, on people's life. And also the other way around how impactful can life circumstances be on a person's mental health as well. Because sometimes, you know, the psychosocial factors have got more of an impact than people realize. Yeah. And maybe we can change society just enough. To be more inclusive to other people. To everyone. Yeah. That would be great. That would be great. Thank you very much, Holger, for sharing your story. Thanks for having me. It's been a pleasure. Hi, I'm Emmy Golding, Director of Psychology for the Workplace Mental Health Institute. We hope you liked the video. If you did, make sure to give it a thumbs up. We have more and more videos being released each week. So when you subscribe, you'll get a notification letting you know when a new one's just been published. So make sure to hit that subscribe button and don't miss out on this vital information for yourself, your colleagues and your loved ones.