 Welcome to the telecom exchange CEO roundtables both for our guests right here in the room at telecom exchange NYC as well as our viewers joining us on Periscope and I'm JSA TV We'd also like to thank our Wi-Fi sponsor Kelly dry Our fourth panel today is called fiber in the city Analyzing the need for new Metro dark fiber bills in and around New York City And includes Jersey We're honored to have as our moderator mr. Richard Lukash He's the senior managing director and a founder of Bank Street also a good friend Richard brings more than 20 years of investment banking experience to the table and has originated structured and executed Hundreds of deals totaling over 100 billion dollars of transaction value Richard, thanks for joining us Well, thank you for assembling this wonderful event that just with each year seems to become an even more impressive Assembly and very proud and honored to be participating year after year as a representative of Bank Street, although there are others here from Bank Street as well I was thinking about this panel earlier this morning and I was sort of struck specifically thinking about the New York City metro area when I was at a My predecessor firm we were thinking in the early days about how to create a private secure network between our Park Avenue central office and our disaster recovery and data centers in Whippenee and in Brooklyn And at the time we were talking about a first wave deployment of a 45 meg massive network that no one thought would ever be I guess it was future-proof and never needs to be touched again Needless to say that was the beginning of an era and some of us at at the firm at the time Got on board and said this is this is very much the the beginning of a wave that is is only going to grow and provide opportunity in so many ways for people to participate and My colleagues and I have been very very fortunate to to have played this now for more than two decades and Collectively actually our firms professionals have touched well over half a trillion dollars of transactions in this ecosystem across the globe I'm going to I don't know any of these guys on the panel. So we're gonna actually start off with a Bit of introductions. Thank you, Jamie. First of all for the kind introduction of myself But maybe if I could ask each of the panelists to take a minute or two and describe yourselves And maybe provide us a little bit of context on how you play in the New York City metro ecosystem Sure, sure thing rich. So well first Thanks for having us here. We really appreciate the opportunity Jamie and thanks for moderating rich So our my name is Ray Lechance. I'm CEO of a company called Zenfine Networks We're a you know, we call ourselves a startup where a two-year-old the company based here in New York City Focused on the fiber networking business. We we designed build and operate a fiber infrastructure throughout the city of New York We do have one span that goes over to New Jersey but we're clearly focused on New York City right now and We it's our second go around in the fiber business. We we started with a company Back in the early 2000s called Lexin ended up selling that the light tower in 2010 that business focused on building the traditional fiber-optic infrastructure supporting enterprises and and creating, you know, you know big looping networks to create resilient and and Networks we would term it called backhaul networks when we started the new company two years ago We we decided there was a new opportunity in this space and the new company Zenfine is squarely focused on supporting the mobile wireless ecosystem and their their desire and need to densify their network So we we are building a new type of network in the New York Metro And it's called a front-haul network and that's really what our predominant focus is with with Zenfine Cool, so I'm Cliff Kane. I'm the co-CEO of clearing on fiber networks Also a New York City based fiber provider. Our focus is a little bit different than rays we're looking to assemble an ecosystem of the Consisting of all the co-location facilities and all the resident customers of those facilities and extending that ecosystem out into You know various enterprise buildings. We are focused on the the real estate market as one of our verticals We're also looking at or focused on being a carrier neutral provider and bringing back that whole idea of carrier neutrality to the New York City marketplace I Good afternoon folks. My name is Enzo Clemente. I am the CEO of cross river fiber Like these guys we own and operate a metro fiber network, but it's in New Jersey We have points of presence in New York through partnerships, but effectively we we own and operate a dark fiber and manage transport business Servicing, you know enterprise customers alike We're excited. This is our fifth year doing this business But there's a niche for the players that you see here and we're looking forward to get into the weeds a bit and talk a bit About what we do here Well, the wonderful thing about the panelists we have here today Is that some of them have actually played out in different iterations of the the fiber development? Ecosystem and I guess as I looked at some of the panels over the course of today's agenda I noted that there were a number of posed questions as the thematic elements here about Whether or not there's a shortage of fiber in the marketplace whether or not there's an abundance or a glut of fiber in the marketplace And since we have folks on this panel who certainly play in the colo-to-colo connectivity Sphere in the data center to data center enabling virtuality sphere as well as partnering with real estate and another Interloping Constituencies that actually in many respects depend on Their vitality being enabled by your technologies They would talk a little bit about or shed light on the theme of do we have too much fiber? Or do we have too little fiber or how to best read that that debate? Start with you Rick. Yeah, sure So I love this question. I get it. I get this comment all the time like why would you start a fiber company in New York City? there's a lot of fiber in New York, it's a saturated market and There clearly is a lot of fiber. There's a lot of competition in the city And if you look at an avenue like 6th Avenue, I'm sure there's over 10,000 strands of fiber running up the the length of 6th Avenue The problem is that most of the fiber is is not as accessible as it needs to be to solve the problem of Mobile densification again the problem we're focused on so our our our thesis is that Yes, there's a lot of fiber. It's stranded. It's unavailable. It's not usable for this application It goes past a lot of buildings, but it can't you can't it can't access it can't be accessed the way it needs to be accessed so We jumped back into the fiber business, but we didn't want to compete with the established You know the light tower models the zeal models and the other players in the market that had a you know I had a really established enterprise business. We thought this opportunity to Build parallel fiber networks with huge capacity That was accessible in each and every block along the way was the the network that needed to be built And that's that's really where we're focusing on so yes, there's a lot of fiber But there's not enough for the applications that are coming down the road Cliff your thoughts on that sure. I definitely agree with that there is a lot of fiber But it doesn't go everywhere you needed to go echoing what Ray's saying our focus not so much on the front hall, but Looking at all of these unserved buildings That there's tens of thousands of them in New York City, which have no fiber or have an incumbent fiber provider Who limits the choices for those tenants that are in that building? So we're trying to facilitate the ability for those tenants to have multiple choices of carriers and you know we're looking at a time where coming where You know people will be jumping from carrier to carrier more readily in the future so we're trying to build an infrastructure that would accommodate that and You know as far as The amount of fiber that it's actually in the city these days It's there's a lot, but it's gonna be a lot more There's people are gonna build and over build and over build for applications That we we don't even know may not even know what they are just yet So that's really expected a lot more fiber construction And maybe end of if you could take a slight slightly different twist here and compare and contrast I mean obviously you come into New York or you feed out of New York and you're serving the New York metro area But maybe talk a little bit about the differences you see Across the the river here versus maybe the experience that you see more in the Metro core of New York City Sure, I mean I think densification is is always an issue You know you look at the turn of the century and the the marketable universe was much different The consumers were much different than they are today you talk about mobility and health care and the Internet of things So they're different consumers so with that you talk about density and with that you rewind and you say wow You know 48 count was a big count in 2000 well, you know now I'm looking at an 864 And I'm thinking should I put a 1728? You know we are we're building that type of density and with that density comes diversity right so you know It's one thing about you know going down a similar road or a similar path and saying well There's four providers on the one side of the street But you know we take us often as a niche player we take a road that's less traveled to provide optionality for you know Are the marketable or the dressable community for us and you know as red pointed Too earlier. I think it is the evolution of mobility and for us we see it the evolution in health care You know a transverse from you know medical records being you know from paper to a shift to you know electronic documents and HIPAA compliance and rules and regulations so you know Having dedicated dense networks with accessibility You know alleviating points of presence in certain pops or you know legacy You know I like co-location centers. It's it's what we're about and when you're a startup in over five You can do that you can build effectively from the ground up and we're really you know excited to be contributing to that And I think you know a lot of the niche operators here we contribute to this ecosystem So it's an exciting time to be building fiber networks So juxtaposing a bit the the 45 meg fiber pair of the early 90s to to today's new generation builds of 864 and 1728 parallel builds Do you see a scenario where after this wave of Deployment in these right-of-ways around that's what we'll call Metro New York City That will be done or what do you see as the next the next? wave of Construction activity so I learned a long time ago to never say never right and done as a is a pretty infinite word No, I don't think we're done. I don't think by a strong You know while we operate here collectively in New York and New Jersey. There's a national issue, right? I mean you look at across the The United States and there's pockets where that there's just no density There's legacy, you know, I like in pots lines that are providing services to you know commercial businesses We're not done and and to think that will will ever be done is you know Foolish I would think in my opinion I'm gonna want ready to comment on this as well but I'd like to specifically point out or have you comment on the The topic of how much you're seeing in the way of dedicated Strands and capacity compared to what we kind of knew was a more lit world shared network environment of days of old And how much of that you see playing a role in the consumption aspects of new networks? Sure, so clearly some of the some of the technologies today Enabling mobile and let me let me step back for a second. We we expect to see you know I've heard quotes from people at Verizon and AT&T Saying they expect over a hundred thousand cell sites in New York City today There's about two to three thousand cell sites in New York City and each one of those Serves a geographic region maybe you know three blocks square in Manhattan for instance The reality is that the hundred thousand antennas are gonna pop up on every street corner They're gonna pop up on every floor of every office building on in the corners of those office buildings Today the technology supporting each of those antennas are dedicated fibers, right? We there's there's really no valid Way to move the capacity to the edge No, no, no viable way to move the capacity to the edge with with traditional lit services like like an Ethernet service They do it with small cells and small pockets, but it's it's it that's a stopgap solution and as we move to You know the Internet of Things, you know Every vehicle is gonna be connected to the network and every everything that every machine that you can imagine that that has any Technology that can be controlled remotely or monitored will be connected as part of the Internet of Things That's gonna require a massive infrastructure and I believe it's a massive wireless infrastructure But the wired wireless infrastructure requires wires, right? You can't make this work without a lot of capacity being pumped over to these edge antennas and that's where the the fight direct fiber connectivity comes in and whatever protocol lights it whether see the net or there's Technology called slippery for digital radio over fiber and there's met You know, there's other things coming down the road It's gonna require space power and connectivity and it's gonna require space everywhere you look You know, there should be an antenna in this room someday that's supporting just this group of users with capacity It's gonna be on all the 3,300 intersections in Manhattan You're gonna have capacity dropped off and and that's that's a huge amount of direct You know strands of fiber that come back to centralized co-locations or distributed co-location facilities Makes sense. Maybe Cliff you can comment on how networks are being built today and how that compares in terms of the ability to do drop-offs and onboarding of capacity to complement some of these vertical demand sets and and maybe talk a little bit about how you particularly target verticals that are most important to you well Just it would have penned a little bit to what Ray was saying I mean, it's it's gonna take another step further because as these networks proliferate and densify There's gonna be a lot more Inter-exchange between them. There's gonna be a lot more partnering. There's gonna be a lot more appearing there's gonna be buying and selling across them. It's gonna get very very dense and very granular at the same time so that the ability to manage these networks and to deliver services for You know for moments possibly Versus years is going to come at the play as as as we construct these networks and so far is You know how we look at building that works. We're really kind of a traditional builder. We You know, we're looking at building network into or fiber network into a building to service those customers but On top of that what we are in the back of what we have is the the connectivity between all the co-location facilities which Enables those customers to reach any of the carriers or service providers of clouds or financial market services companies that reside That are you know within a cross-connect away from where we are so effectively We're not looking to to build these Very dense networks like like Zenfight is doing we're dropping off a pair at every intersection It's you know, unless of course we're asked for that I mean we can certainly do that as a Fiber provider in New York City, but you know, we're really looking at building is very similar to what's been You know what the traditional methodologies of building networks are Maybe and so if you could comment a little bit also, you know industry verticals I know you spent some time maybe with a with a core focus and a few industry verticals How do you see certain segments of the marketplace consuming bandwidth today versus perhaps other parts of the economy? Sure, I mean, you know we started the company effectively looking at the financial community high-frequency traders And really catering to you know a low-latency application The evolution for us has effectively been content media bandwidth health care And and backhaul wireless which you know requires capacity we continue to go back to this you know this sort of Statement here that you need a lot of this stuff and capacity will win the race you need to have multiple strands of fiber our Users are not leasing a pair. They're leasing a bundle 12 24 or 48 at times So you have to have capacity and you have to have accessibility to the extent that they can access it Easier, you know, they're gonna want to build to for the future So, you know, we've seen a shift in evolution from the financial community to health care to mobility again It's just sort of being a chameleon a bit, you know kind of catering to what our Customers are looking for what they need with their bandwidth needs are And I also continue to refer back to us being niche so to the extent that we can continue to be niche and nimble and Customer service first like all these guys here We'll be able to react and satisfy those requirements I'm gonna want to come to the audience as well for questions because I see a lot of Knowledge and experience in the in the audience that might want to also pose a question or two But before we go down that way, I'd like to I know Ray you you've introduced earlier this concept of compatibility with Let's call them the the the converging spheres of wireless infrastructure Das obviously is an important component of that But I think also is I think of the New York metro area the flow of undersea cable assets other Wireless satellite other distribution technologies all confluence around the New York metro area not all of that necessarily in Manhattan, but The compatibility of all of those ecosystems is something that often people talk about their convergence But how it actually plays out in the trenches if you will it worthwhile may be commenting on that and how you see yourselves Each playing on that on that on that Continuing evolution if you will sure so well first when I look at networks I you know I from my perspective, you know There are people categorize themselves as fiber providers as lit service providers as wireless, you know fixed wireless Network providers Broadway broadband providers. We're all network providers, right? And when I look at a network All these technologies really need to to converge and work together So, you know, I envision a network the network of the future is going to be certainly going to be a huge wireless component I expect that That even broadband into the home will ultimately be delivered with gigabit or multi gigabit wireless connections from the last hundred feet The last 50 feet so well of a wired infrastructure that gets close enough and then comes out with multi-point or Multi-point fixed wireless or non-line-of-site Wireless or some some technology that completes the circuit to many many endpoints So the there's a clear convergence between wireless technologies on the broadband distribution side and in the wire line side as far as You know New York City. Obviously, it's a it's a center of the universe from the US's perspective With circuits terminating from all over the world and they get and they reach out and touch endpoints Starting at 118th or 60 Hudson 32 of a 3 3 25 Hudson those those are landing points that that have become central to distribution of high capacity coming from all over the world throughout Throughout the city so, you know, we're part of that and again, it's all it's connectivity power and space Is the business that that we're all in when we provide underlying infrastructure? So we complete the help complete those circuits So what I would comment on is that the The vision of the connectivity of the future, you know, I think very similarly to what Ray was just saying is that he You're gonna have a wire line delivery up to a point and then it's gonna go wireless to give you that flexibility But what's happening in in your cell phone even today is just it's pretty intense. I mean the you know the composition of of a Of a web page for example could be 50 or 100 different partners could be feeding into that But you think about what do you have to do to deliver that kind of service? on a very personalized and Timely relevant basis, you know for advertising marketing messages For workflows for for businesses. I mean this is this is where we're going with this It's got the underlying infrastructure has to be able to accommodate immediate direct and Highly localized if not personalized service delivery So when we think about you know the network our network of the future what we're laying the groundwork for is exactly that It's got to be something that you know it has enough capacity to get out there But you know and you know layering on things like SDN and FV as the future You know brings those forward for us, then you'll have the the ability to you know to deliver I don't know big data to To a cell phone or or like you know what Enzo is talking about it could be you know moving some Medical records around from a doctor who's walking down the street and he's looking at some you know imaging of a patient or something Like that it's really gonna have to you know, what does it take to build that kind of network? And you know we spent a lot of time thinking about that You know currently we're building a traditional infrastructure to service customers, but where is that going to wind up? You know we see you know, there's gonna be a lot of a lot more Hosting and content moving towards the edge which is going to require you know space and power near the edge And then you know once you have that then you wind up in a position where you can start delivering these types of services And maybe in a mesh configuration or what have you but all this is going to require enormous amounts more fiber You know a lot more specialized Companies that are doing anything from billing to provisioning To be able to keep tracking stuff on a fly There's a whole software layer component to it that you know, we're not going to dress in this panel But I think it's equally relevant that's going to make the future happen for us And so anything you want to add? I mean listen, we're physical fiber guys right so at the end of the day We're often hidden behind the scenes while you know everybody outside of this audience Probably doesn't know what we do for a living, but they're you know effectively We're enabled in them to hit buttons on phones and tap on keys on computers I mean that's the sexy part about our business. No one ever mentions that you know, we're you know I thought today I was going to be going on the voice, but you know that's sexy But this is kind of cool, too I get to talk on a microphone Rob said what are you going to talk about today? And I said you know, how do we bring how do we make this exciting? Well, I mean look at your phone go on your Mac and Download some Netflix and we're part of that solution. I like to be part of that solution. I think that's pretty neat I'm still having to evolve to the Mac I guess it may be turning it in the other direction a bit. What are the challenges for growth? I mean, I guess there's The the Moore's law aspects of what's happening at the network layer But you know has anything really changed in the in the sort of difficulties and complexities of actually deploying physical network on the one layer I guess the other thing too Speaking to the competitive realm is we're talking to some of the Upstart innovators if you will in the New York metro area But there's no shortage of capital being employed by you know The largest cable companies in the areas or the telcos and others so talk a little bit about the Headwinds as you look out into the horizon a bit. Maybe we'll start with Ray and work our way through so You know what I got into the fiber business actually late late compared to the many of you in this room in in my career But around 2002 2003 I got involved with Lexington Lex and Metro Connect and you know We're building a fiber network and and when I look back at the challenges that we had then and compare them to the challenges We have today. It's a We had it easy and I didn't realize how easy we had it We had a lot of open duct capacity to get around the city We had relatively low franchise fees to worry about and we had a an environment that was You know building owners would You know, we're much more open to us building it through the buildings and and they didn't have their hands out and It was it was just an easier environment to build networks And I we saw it get progressively harder up until you know 2009 2010 and and I think things got much more difficult when Verizon Fios came to town and started Really congesting the ducts so so what I said the challenges I see today is we have very little duct capacity left In in the city to build new networks We're finding that the the the costs of doing business in the city because of the cost of being in carrier hotels for aggregation points or the costs of Franchise fees that the new franchise that were that were Cliff and I are under in the city is Really cost prohibitive. It's a there's there's you know, the city makes the claim that they want propagation of pervasive pervasive broadband throughout New York They want the underserved areas served but they've created a franchise fee model which we pay per foot of cable that we put in the ground and So that limits speculation, right? You're not going to do you're not going to build Fiber for footprint that ultimately is going to cost a few dollars per foot per year to just for the right to be in the public Right-of-way Speculatively you're going to do that if you have anchor tenants and the old model Which most of the franchisees are under the zeo's and the light towers and if they still have active whoever has active franchises that Haven't expired they pay a percent of revenue. That's a success-based model. That model I think is really a much more appropriate and So we have costs and congestion to deal with the you know, long story short But that's that's what I see is the challenges for new entrants like Cliff and myself here in the city Cliff any other additional thoughts or challenges? Yeah, so it's always about capital Resources and what's available to you and what the market will bear and so you face all those things I would just add that you know the you know the The other incumbents are the larger competitors aren't faced the same franchise Costs that we are and if they were they If they would just be spending a lot of money with the city We can you know live in Gold-plated buildings in the city because they have so much fiber and they would be paying so much money But you know it's you know from our perspective we we have to be very smart about how we deploy capital and What do you wind up with is there's a lot of demand from the wireless side of the world to to have this you know user experience, which is rich and You know this is Forcing it, but then the the wireless guys have also started to pull back on their their capital deployments as well So there's kind of these gaps all the time where you know what's available for for money to deploy systems and what's what the The service providers are really willing to pay and you try to meet those gaps But what I think one of the things that we're going to wind up doing as a solution to that I think across the board not just for a clearing on is that you know We would have to start sharing some resources if it's a fiber network whether it's you know people jumping off and on it You know more cost effectively than now But you know now I think everybody's kind of like holding their fiefdoms and you know close their cards close to their chest But I think you know it's got to open up because you know my customer maybe not the same as my competitors customer and Collectively we can swap you know network assets and do things that That now the technology is actually enabling a lot a lot to happen a lot easier Thematically that sounded like something called bandwidth trading early And so any additional thoughts and actually I'm gonna turn it to the audience for a question or two as we I think we only have Another five minutes or so. I mean, yeah, we have different challenges than these folks here in New York I mean we effectively have to deal with regulation and you know People recognize New Jersey as being a relatively small dense state But in fact there's 500 plus municipalities to which we traverse our network through and you know effectively You have to get rights of ways and agreements which can be challenging because it's it's all about time the market when you're when You're a small provider like us our cut our customers want to see you show up and so you know what we do and what we've done since the beginning of time here at Cross River as Done a lot of proactive planning a lot of speculative engineering You know preserving rights to be in certain places at certain times and and we think that's again back to being a niche provider That's what we do, but you know again challenges time the markets a big one for us I wouldn't I wouldn't say that we have you know a lot of the capital constraints or burdens that these guys have with Franchise fees would have you but timing is a big deal for us And so we we proactively plan to get through those, you know those process problems and challenges excellent I guess I'll turn to floor to the audience if there's a question or two and you don't have to spare me necessarily these guys have been peppered Healthily here, and I'm happy to answer a question or two as well But anybody have anything you want to add to the to the benefit of the the assembly here Bill who's new to the fiber space Yes You know I can't comment on the project specifically but uh, you know We're building a network that's that's designed to deliver fiber to the curb to support small cell Dazz remote radio heads carrier Wi-Fi applications to so street furniture falls into that domain Light poles of course we have our New York City mobile telecom franchise also Which allows us to deploy antenna locations and remotes on small cells or whatever on on light poles And we have to bring fiber to those locations the way to do that is a created network that's accessible Easily accessible along the entire fiber path the traditional method of building Networks the backhaul networks that have a splice point That's a thousand feet away from your end node if you have a node that you have to get to every 200 feet Or every couple hundred feet a few hundred feet You'll you'll have power you'll end up building parallel laterals back to a splice point We've developed technologies to to really cut cost out of that and when we've created a our front-haul network is accessible in Every manhole it goes through along the entire path. It's a very different model than the legacy networks that have been built It's a different way of building the network So what's that street furniture? There's a lot of there's a lot of street furniture in New York that eventually will host the antennas There's plenty of opportunity to plant antennas out there So I am new to fiber in fact not really in fiber a wholesale wireless connectivity And so we're at the end and talking about bringing it in that last 50 meters as you said in sort of the Collaboration that happens at that side and I did walk in a little bit late So perhaps you address this question my apologies and perhaps I should know this and but Optimization, you know, we talked about we've been talking about today fiber deficiency and On the on our end we talk a lot about Optimizing spectrum and spectrum management and that sort of case Is there a piece of what you guys do as as the fight as fiber that has to do with optimization? Or is that only something that can be addressed on top of the infrastructure? Yeah, I Could answer So so What we do is really critical to optimizing the networks and the carriers, you know They they have a problem with spectrum. They can't get additional spectrum, right? So what do they have to do? They have to look at that spectral reuse options and the way they do that as they create more sectors So you take a cell tower today that may have three sectors on it What are the carriers doing to increase to double their capacity? They're creating six sectors You take the same approach in the in the Metro along You know up and down the avenues They'll take those cell sites that are on top of buildings and serving three square blocks And they'll put an antenna on every one of those those intersections and use that same spectrum At a lower power and create a smaller cell site So that that we're a critical piece of the puzzle for for optimizing The mobile networks use of spectrum by helping them subdivide it really really important Right. I was just thinking that it's it's about offloading spectrum That's you know the spectrum is the the capital expense that carriers face That's one of the most expensive. It's not the most expensive Asset in their in their capex. So, you know, whenever you can offload it either small celled ass Wi-Fi whichever way it's it's coming off It's good for them JP My name is Yucca Cajos. I come from Europe. We often operate fiber networks and submarine networks in Europe. My main question is in five years time Do you see the difference in the customer base that you have at the moment versus what it's going to be and do you see any special verticals business verticals coming up and eating up this I think it's absolutely going to be different. I think we're going to get more towards, you know, internet type companies Cloud type companies media companies will be using more fiber infrastructure bandwidth infrastructure than they do now It's just the you know that the discussions down the floor before it's several times and media was brought up about you know Technologies are able to push, you know media files through from point to point a lot faster So, you know right now there's a lot of, you know, our customer sets our carriers and enterprises So businesses and carriers are I think will continue to be you know a strong market for us but I think it's going to expand into a whole another level of users for us Well, I'll wind up by by saying that the the sort of capital availability and competitive backdrop Was commented on a few times and I think it's been a rare circumstance in this Ecosystem which I've been proud to be part of for almost 25 30 years now where the confluence of capital availability and The strategic appetite across so many interloping ecosystems are all playing out at the same time. So From that perspective, I think there's there's lots of room for opportunity to innovate and develop new themes as well as to consolidate and actually play out Exploitations of segments of the marketplace in a much more optimized way and opportunities for scaling as well I think the also the strategic interest across this ecosystem all of those converging arenas that we talked about you are reading about Playing out in the and the headlines as as folks that were deemed to be traditionalists are new in the In the broadband arenas and some of the some of the folks that you would not have thought of as Being very active in the space you should expect to read about in the months and year ahead as I think we'll see much more Excitement across this particular particular space and happy to talk to any of you if if you have any specific plans or ambitions as well Thank you all for your attention and thank you for the panelists for a wonderful