 Thank you all for coming. This is the second of our interview series at the festival. We also had a keynote speaker come in to introduce this symposium element of the festival that's kind of threading through with all the performances. So we're very happy you're here and we hope that you continue to follow this pathway with dialogues between the artists and activists. We have next weekend two more. No, we have three more next weekend. Julie Liechtenberg, Trini Mayeda will be speaking about the first generation experience in America in the U.S. And Ruben Dario Salazar will be interviewed from Cuba about puppetry in Cuba, the arts in Cuba. And Eric Bass and Roberto Salarón will be speaking about their international collaboration of a work they've been doing in El Salvador. So all many exciting themes continued next weekend. Please come back again. Please purchase your festival t-shirt, if you haven't seen them yet, arch-designed by Yana Zeller with an image from Magali's show, so if you haven't seen that, that's going to be performed tonight at 7 o'clock. If it's raining, it will be raining and the venue will be 118 Elliott Street. There we are. So shift in venue. If you haven't seen that, please, please come. It's a free performance. Absolutely stunning. So without further ado, I'd love to introduce this interview and we're actually going to let it be led in graciously by Scott Ainsley with a little art burst for you. Thank you so much. This is a song, a true story song that I wrote after hearing a report on National Public Radio of the search for a woman named Gracia Cruz who was lost on June 23rd in 2007 in the Sonoran Desert. The facts in the song are all straight out of her story. It was amazing. For those of you who don't, used to be the arts editor of the Brattleboro Reformer. Now I'm the executive director of The Latches and I'm very pleased and proud and honored to have been asked by Sanglass to facilitate these conversations. I'm here today with Shura Wallin, a founder of Green Valley Samaritans out of Arizona and Alejandro Benitez Cuellar, director of Mexico's Factor Teatro. And we'll find out a little bit more about them and what they do very shortly. The general theme today is U.S.-Mexico relations. And I just want to frame this with a couple of thoughts that came to me as I was preparing. For those of us who live 2,000 miles away from the U.S.-Mexico border, the issues along that border are a comfortable abstraction, I think, grounded in statistics and numbers and data and sound bites and stereotypes and devoid of the humanity and the reality around it. Although I did find it interesting that a million dollars of products are traded legally across the border every minute. It is a very, very powerful locus. When we think of Mexico at all, many of us here, it's because some candidate with appalling hair said something inflammatory or we hear that somebody wants to build a bigger and better wall. And however much we know it in our hearts, the stereotypes that we've received often still form our judgments. I'm as guilty of anyone of profound ignorance about Mexico. I made one brief foray into Tijuana when I was younger for a night of music and revelry, which I will never forget. But that hardly makes me an expert in preparing for this conversation. I'm willing to learn. In preparing for this conversation, I spent more time thinking about and looking into Mexico than I ever have before in my life, Mea Culpa. I think if we think about Mexico at all, we don't think about our shared humanity, our common ties through faith and family, community and culture, and enter sand glass and all of us here to begin to work on this. I'd like to conclude with something I found. It's a quote from the great cellist Pablo Casals, who said, the love of one's country is a splendid thing, but why should love stop at the border? And I think with that, we'll turn it over to our guests. And I think perhaps we could start by finding a little bit more about what you do. And sure, why don't you tell us a few words or less? A few words? Then we'll dig deeper. Okay. I'll give you, I'm not a person of few words, but I'll try. I'll give you a brief summary. I lived in Berkeley, California for 28 years. During my time there, 14 years was spent with the homeless. I co-founded and coordinated a food program for the homeless. And in 2000, June of 2000, my husband and I moved from Berkeley to Green Valley, Arizona, which is basically halfway between Tucson and Nogales. And it was shortly before we left that I began hearing from some of my Latino friends this, we don't want them to come. And I thought, what is this all about? Never read anything in the papers about what was happening on the Arizona desert, the Texas desert, whatever. So I kind of tucked that away and I thought, well, they're probably afraid for their jobs. You know, afraid that they're going to lose their jobs. And we moved in June of 2000 and my husband was still working in the Bay Area. And so I was in Green Valley by myself for the first summer. And about a month after we were down there, I read in the paper about this group called Humane Borders. And Humane Borders is a group that puts recycled Coca-Cola containers out on the desert with a picture of the Big Dipper, a 30-foot pole and a blue flag for migrants who come across who are thirsty. And it is not uncommon for us to find bullet holes in those water tanks. It's not uncommon for us to find these spigots turned on and all of the water has run out. And I thought, well, this is something I could do. And I got involved with Humane Borders and used to do these water runs. And then another group in Tucson was started called Tucson Samaritans, got involved with them as well. And then along came another group called No More Deaths. And I'm thinking, wouldn't it be nice if I could get a group started in Green Valley? Green Valley is extremely conservative and it is a retirement community. And so one day in January of 2005, Randy Mayer, who's a minister at the UCC Church, the Good Shepherd in Salarito, which is adjacent to Green Valley, had a one-day symposium on immigration. And a friend of mine from Tucson had brought down two or three articles and items that had been found on the desert and things that had been left behind and a sign-up sheet. And so at the end of the day she said, you're not going to believe this. There are a number of people here who would like to get involved. And that's what started us. Our first search, and I will tell you what we do, our first search was February 5th, 2005. The first thing that we do is to search for people. We take backpacks of food and water, medical supplies, some socks. We walk on the desert calling out in Spanish, don't be afraid, we're here to help you. We have food, water, and assistance. That's the number one thing. The second thing that we do is we put water out, gallons of water, with GPS coordinate on the bottle, Green Valley Samaritans, and the date that we've dropped the water in strategic areas. Areas where we know we feel that people are coming. There is a retired geology professor from the University of Arizona who has mapped all of the trails that migrants have used. So we know we can follow the clues that are out there, things that have been left behind, how fresh they are, and so on and so forth. And also we get word of which way people are coming from a variety of sources. And the reason for the GPS coordinate is that if we find a bottle, say, hypothetically, five miles from that way point, that gives us an idea that maybe people are changing directions. And we can target that area in hopes of finding people who are in desperate need. A brief story about one of our water bottles recently. A 12-year-old girl who had been raped repeatedly by the coyote who had been in charge of her group was left behind. And obviously left behind to die was extremely hot. She found one of our water bottles, and the water bottle is what saved her life. A Border Patrol agent found her and carried her to safety. So with everything, if that bottle saved one person's life, we have done what we have set out to do. Another thing that we do, in addition to putting the water bottles out, we used to do, and we don't do this as frequently as we did in the past, we would do what is called basura. The items left behind by people are often referred to as trash. I don't see them in that way. But nonetheless, we feel an obligation to help clean up the desert. And so we will scout different areas, and when we find what is called a layup spot, which is a place where people have been waiting for a ride, when a ride arrives, they cannot take anything with them other than what fits in their pockets. So everything is left behind. And so we will pick up items. We sort through everything for identification, things that can be reused. We take home, we wash, we recycle. I take a lot of the things to Mexico because I work in Mexico every week with migrants who have been returned. And the other things we discard, and we hope that this is helping to maintain the geography of the desert and keep it in pristine condition as best we can. We also have groups that go to Operation Streamline, which is the court proceedings that take place every day of the week. Up to 70 migrants are processed in court. They are taken into court at 9.30 in the morning. They are handcuffed to a chain around their waist with chains running down their legs and shackled. And they sit in court until 1.30 in the afternoon when they go before the judge. They've been able to see a lawyer perhaps for half an hour, and then they are sentenced or whatever the judge determines. Basically, those are the things that we do. Thank you. Wow. Honor, would you tell us about what you do? Yeah. First, I want to apologize because my English is not real good, but I will try to make myself clear. I'm an actor, a puppeteer, also a drummer, and I've been doing puppetry for the last 20 years. And for the last 10 years, I became really involved with a toy theater or paper theater, and I have my own company that is called Factor Teatro. And I started doing paper theater, which is my main job now, because I first went to the Great Small Works International Authority Theater Festival in New York 10 years ago, and I was just amazed by the marvelous world that was opening in front of my eyes. And because they organized this museum and they had these multiple techniques doing toy theater, so I decided that I wanted to do that. But also, I saw the results of a workshop that they did with these young people from very poor high schools in Queens and in Brooklyn. And I saw that this is a marvelous tool for education. So I said that maybe this can work in Mexico, and I was a theater teacher on a high school in Mexico, and I said, okay, let's try it now. And it was marvelous. It was just pure magic for either students and the teachers. And since then, I have been trying to give this technique to Mexico because also, as you know, we are in a huge economical and social crisis now there. And I think paper is just at the reach of anybody's hand. And also, it doesn't have this strong wall between the artist and the audience. No, it is not like that because it brings the child inside everyone. So it's magic. And after each show, people approach and say, how do you do this and how do you do that? Okay, it's just as simple as this. You can do it at home and you can share it with your family because this is how this technique was born. And since then, now I organize an international paper theater festival in Mexico City since 2012. And it has been great. Now there are at least 10 or 11 professional paper theater companies in Mexico City, so I'm very happy. That's pretty much it. Thank you. To continue with you, Alejandro, I think a little bit. You know, I was one of those who just saw your performance. Thank you very much. If you haven't, please do so at 3 o'clock at the latches. It's really enchanting. It's not specifically political about the issues. And it's not as sort of upfront activist as sure as work. But tell me the ways in which the things that are going on in Mexico today are reflected and examined and celebrated in your work. And what is the activist side of what you do? Of course, I mean, right now we just went back in time and we have the same government that were in the power for 75 years. I mean, we never had during the 20th century a military dictatorship. It was worst because it was disguised as a democratic government. So they say, okay, you can vote, but your vote doesn't care, you know? And in the year 2000, we were so happy because that was the first time in 75 years that we had this change in the government. I mean, it was the right-wing party, but I mean, it was a change. And the thing is that the political and social system in Mexico is rotten from the very roots. It was made to protect the powerful people and it was made to be, you know, you can just, you have money, you can do anything you want in Mexico as clear as that. You can kill a person, you can steal what you want, you can do whatever you want if you have money to pay. That's it. And I think, as John said, with facto teatro, we don't have a political agenda per se, but what we do is to try to remind people that there is beauty in the world because now they are killing journalists. They are killing teachers. They are killing students. They are killing almost anyone that dares to raise their voice. Because now our government, in our government, they are just ignorant and very stupid people. You know, it's a worst time for Mexico in the modern era. It's just scary. And one of the best ways that I found that I can do something is to bring art to the people, to remind them that, I mean, I think that each human being is a creator, has the capacity. Thank you very much of creating something. And people just forget that in Mexico. People just want to have more material things. And the young generation now is convinced, I mean, not everybody, of course, but mostly the most poor ones and the most uneducated people, they just want to have as much material things and money they can have. It doesn't matter if that turns out that they get killed. You know, because they can sell drugs, they can steal, they can kidnap. It doesn't matter because with that, you can make much more money than working for a whole year in just one, you know? And I think it's very, very, very sad because now the younger generation doesn't have any value besides what the television or what the media, it's telling them. Because they want, I mean, the US influence in Mexico is strong. I mean, we grew up listening to music in English. We grew up going to the movies and seeing all these movies in English. And I mean, I am not saying that it's bad because I love rock and roll. I love jazz. I love jeans. You know, those good things and all the culture and everything, but what's going on in Mexico is that everybody wants to be, I want to say it, to be gringo. But we are not gringos, you know? And it's very hard to change this kind of thinking, this way of thinking, sorry. I don't know. Do you see part of what you do as countering that to restore some of their natural, where they're from, their culture to them? And also, you know, because talking about stereotypes, we also have a lot of stereotypes about the US and Mexico, of course. I mean, in Mexico, I made a show with this theater company. It wasn't puppets, it was theater, with the Hand to Mouth Theater from Portland, Oregon. And we made this collaboration between La Divina Comedia, which was a company that I was working with, and Hand to Mouth Theater, about how both countries see each other. And we were working and we were just realizing that we were very ignorant about each other because we only had the information we received from the TV or from the movies or from music, and it was just crazy because we had this part where everybody was saying just one archetype that we have and one of my Mexican colleagues say, okay, I think in the US everybody... it's on a horse with his cowboy hat and just shooting, no? And they're very drunk. And one of the colleagues from Portland, she said, okay, in Mexico everybody lives under a palm tree and they are just scratching their bellies all day and everything just... you know? It was ridiculous. It was just ridiculous. And we learned so much about each other, just working for about one year. We were going back and forth to Portland and to Mexico City. And also, we are very far away from the northern border of the country. Mexico City is, I think, far away from the border. And also, we don't know much about it and we are just realizing in this past two or three years that the situation for migrantes in Mexico is much, much worse in Mexico than in the US because there is this huge crime organization, I mean, Narx, and now we are learning that there is this body part selling, I mean organs. They are killing children. They are killing people just because about migrantes. Nobody gives nothing about them, so we can sell. We can sell them. We can sell their livers. We can sell their hearts. It's just horrible. And now we are realizing that it makes... I mean, to cross from the south of the border of Mexico to the US, it's just pure hell for Central American and South American people. And there's a... I know there's this statistic that says that at least 90% of women, children, men, every age gets robbed, raped, mutilated, or killed in their way to the US in Mexico. And the government is very involved in this because you don't understand how this huge organization is working to self the bless of the Mexican government and the local government in every state where you know the train that brings people from all the way, it's called la bestia, the beast. And now it's a very scary word because we know that if you go on the beast, something terrible will happen to you. Would you talk to us a little bit about what you know about who you're serving and helping, who are these people and what circumstances bring them to the United States? What we're seeing now are predominantly Central Americans. Guatemala, El Salvador, Honduras, and people from Chiapas, which is in Mexico, but by and large they're indigenous people. Many of them do not speak Spanish, they only speak their dialect. They are coming because they are starving to death for one thing. And secondly, they're coming because of all of the violence. And they're trying to get their children out. I cannot tell you the number of children that I have seen who have come by themselves. And not long ago there was a young boy sitting by himself at the Commodore, which is a dining room in Nogales, Sonora, which is run, started by the Sisters of the Eucharist, and the Jesuits have taken over and it's called the Kino Border Initiative. And every morning after migrants have been deported, they go to immigration in Nogales. They get a piece of paper with their picture, their name, and the date of deportation. They take that to the Commodore and it allows them to eat there for two meals a day for three days. It used to be that they allowed them to eat for 14 days and then through time they realize that most people are not staying for 14 days. They're going to be moving on, so they've cut it down to three. If there are extenuating circumstances, the person can come probably as long as they need to come. But this 14-year-old boy was sitting by himself and I went over and sat down next to him, put my arm around him, and asked him where he was from. He was from Honduras. And I said, did you come with friends or family? And he said, no. And I said, where are you going? And he said he was going to Oxnard, California. Someone had told him, given him the name Oxnard because that's an agricultural area. And I said, do you have family or friends in the United States? And he said, no. He was going to cross by himself. He had come on the train. Now fortunately, he wasn't pushed off the train. The trains are controlled by the gangs. Salva Maratrucha from El Salvador is one of the big gangs. And my understanding is that they formed when they were in prison in Los Angeles. And they went back and they are absolutely ruthless. And it's not only are they involved, but the police along the way, wherever the train stops, the police are there extorting money, whatever the people have, extorting money from them. And they have nothing to begin with. And they have less than nothing when they get back on the train if they're lucky. Okay. And so with that, we're seeing a lot of young people come. Again, mostly indigenous. And that doesn't mean that we don't see people from Mexico. We see a lot of people who have been returned, who have been in the United States for years and years and years. Some of them don't even speak Spanish. And another very, very distressing thing here is that we're beginning to see older people. And by that I mean people in their early 70s who are getting ready to cross the desert again because they have no family in Mexico or Central America. Their family is in the United States. The United States is what they know. Now, to cross that desert, it takes roughly a week to walk from Nogales to Tucson. That's if you are going in a straight line. Now, how much food and how much water can you carry with you to get you through that trip? Not to mention the number of people who are praying on not only the gangs, but people who are praying on the migrants as they cross. The coyotes, the guides are part and parcel of this. They really do not care. That's just the bottom line. You, if someone dies in the desert, it's not uncommon for the coyote to get in touch with the family and say, I have your son and I need another $3,000 by tomorrow or your son is dead. You as the family member have no idea that your son or your daughter or your loved one has died. No idea. So those are the kinds of things that we see pretty much on a daily basis and the desperation is palpable and we are as involved in that desperation as Mexico is. We run hand in hand. You know exactly what you are saying about the coyotes and they don't care. It's what happened with the authorities and the government. They just don't care because narcotraffic and I mean corruption is a way of life in Mexico and I think the people with power and I am saying economical or political power, they just see everybody else like merchandise as expendable, is that a word? Expendable. Expendable. Thank you. As expendable merchandise. They don't see the other as a human being. I think that's the main problem because the level of dehumanization, if that's a word, that now it's going on in Mexico, it's just horrible. They just don't care. That point of view is just spreading all over the society because it doesn't matter. I mean everybody is trying to survive. Of course there are a lot of good things in Mexico. There is a lot of good people in Mexico but the feeling that we have now is that it's getting less and less and less. So that's what's going on. We feel that this crisis now is really serious for everybody. It doesn't matter if you have money or you are middle class or you are very poor. It doesn't matter. It just touched everybody there. So I think that's the key. But I also think that, I think you're absolutely right, I think also that the vast majority of people still do not understand what is pushing people to leave their homes and to come here. They just don't get it. And I hear in my own community, well they are only, they are coming to take our jobs. They are coming to do this. They are coming. They are coming here to steal flat, I've heard this, flat screen TVs. They are carrying flat screen TVs across the desert, you know, with all of what I call our knick-knacks. That's the only reason that they're coming. You can't trust them at all. And, you know, they are absolutely up to no good. And nothing could be further from the truth. Yes, you have a faction of people, not unlike in our own society, we have a faction of people who are up to no good. But the vast majority of people are not like that. The vast majority of people aren't. And it's very difficult to get people to understand this. And I say to people who make these outrageous statements, I will say, you come with me. You come with me to Mexico. You come with me to the Commodore. You look into the faces of these folks who are suffering so terribly. And then you tell me, then you make that statement that you just made after we leave there. You tell me. Because nothing could be further from the truth. And also, I think it's a worldwide situation because it's the same case in Europe with the migration from Africa or Asia. I mean, also in Mexico, we have migrantes from Central America. And it's the same case. I mean, they are treated like they are not human beings. It's the same because, I mean, we wonder why they want to go to Mexico because it's terrible, but imagine how's the situation in their countries, no? But also, there's the issue of racism, which is palpable. And case in point, our government issues warnings to us, the State Department, don't go to Mexico. Don't go into Mexico. Mexico is very dangerous. But we have no compunctions about deporting women, babies, children, young boys and girls who are ripe for the picking and others in the middle of the night to Nogales as one case in point. And they have had their cell phones thrown away. They have no way to get in touch with their families. They don't know where they are. They have very little to eat. They have no place to sleep. And Nogales is rife with cartel members. Across the street from where I work at the Commodore, Barb and Scott have been there. Across the street, up on the hill, stand the Sicarios, the assassins, who are working for the cartels. They're watching us with binoculars. The young boy that I told you about was ripe for the picking. All he has to do is walk out of that Commodore by himself. Somebody calls ahead to a guy that's standing around the corner. The guy goes up to him and says, hey, have you ever been to Nogales before? No. Do you know where you are? No. Well, come with me. Come on, let me show you. That's it. And once you are in, once you've been taken, there is absolutely nothing you can do except to give up your life. That's it. And that's what most people don't understand. They do not understand. You talk a little bit about the backlash and the threats and the, you know, response to what you do from both sides of the border and... Okay. Well, interestingly enough, I don't really have threats from Mexico. However, we have minute men in our community. Less so now than maybe five or six years ago because there were three minute men, a minute woman from Seattle who, Sean Afford, was her name and her sidekick, Jason Bush, who was being investigated for serial killing. They got in touch with one of the minute men, one of the high mucky mucks in our community. And decided between them that they would come down to basically where we're living a little bit further out on the desert. And they were going to rob drug dealers of not the drugs, but of their money to use that money for purposes of whatever they wanted to use it for to beef up their organization. And they were targeting young man and his family who live in a place called Arivaca, which is 23 miles back Kitty Wampus off I-19, which is the freeway that runs from Tucson to Mexico. Okay. And they had all of this planned and there was a fellow who was working in Arivaca at the feed store who was involved with this tool. Alberto Gaxiola was his name. And at 5.30 in the morning, Shauna Ford and Jason Bush burst into the home of this young man, Raul Flores. His wife was in the bedroom. She was armed. Raul was not armed. Their nine-year-old daughter was in the room with Raul. Their older daughter was at her grandmother's in the town close to where I live. And at any rate, they broke in, fully armed, and they were going to rob him of money. And the daughter, Brisiana, was her name. Said, why are you trying to kill my mommy and daddy? And with that, they shot her in the head. And they shot and killed Raul. And the mother who had the gun shot Jason in the leg. Didn't kill him, obviously, but shot him in the leg. They fled, and they didn't stop for help until they got pretty close, I think, to the California border, and they had to stop. And by then, word had gotten out that this had happened. And so they were captured, and both of them were sentenced to death. So they're on death row in Arizona. I don't know what happened to the other individual who was involved in this. But at any rate, once that happened, the Minutemen, who used to have, they would drive jeeps, and they had Minutemen Civil Defense Corps across the front windshield. They kind of backed off for a while. But recently, they've started up again, and what they're doing is they're sitting close to the border. They're fully armed. And many of my friends and myself believe that they've probably taken out a lot of migrants and disposed of them. I mean, who could ever find somebody on the desert, really and truly? And I have no compunctions about saying that. I don't have that as a fact. But knowing what they do, they used to sit in front of my house. So, you know, they're nuts. As quite frankly, as I see it, they think they're protecting the country. They're not. When you hear someone like Donald Trump say what he said and politicians talk about the wall, you know, what's your reaction, both maybe viscerally and then, you know, academically or intellectually as well? What's your reaction to that? It's mostly my heart. I just... The statements that he makes are so totally unfounded. And I know that there are a faction of people in the United States and elsewhere who believe what he's saying, you know, that they're only coming for this. Most of them are rapists. Most of them are murderers. That just speaks volumes about what he doesn't know and what he doesn't understand. He just doesn't understand this. And I... You know, I really... I can't say that I stepped back when I heard him say that because I really basically wasn't surprised. I don't think... What I love about so much of this is, well, I don't love it, but what I... it's just preposterous to me. Are the groups of congresspeople who will go to the border and feel... and they go to the Arizona border and they feel like they've really seen the border. They've really seen what is going on when, in fact, they haven't seen anything. And this wall that is... encompasses the border is 15 feet tall, okay? There's a film of two young women climbing that wall and they timed them. And one woman climbed young women. One woman climbed it in 15 seconds and another did it in 17 seconds. And what the coyotes will do to get people over the wall sometimes is that they will have people climb and there obviously is a way of doing this. The wall, in part, is built with Vietnam landing mats, which are steel, of course, and there's about this much space between them. So there's enough space to be able to fashion your feet to go up and to hang on. And what the coyotes will do is that they will put a rope over the top so that when someone gets to the top they will lower themselves down. And I've only heard of one fatal accident and the rope broke and some person died on that. So I think that he, like so many people, again, just simply does not understand he sees this in a very myopic way and cannot see the humanity, which is very, very unfortunate. And here is someone who has everything imaginable and wants more. And that, to me, is the crux of the situation, not only here and in Mexico, but around the world. There are too few with too much and too many with nothing. And those who have nothing, for the most part, only want to be able to support their families, to educate their children, and not unlike what any of us in this room would want. One more question and then we'll turn it over to you guys for some questions. It's for Alejandro. When we talked a couple days ago, you talked about your work bringing and reintroducing beauty. But there was also an element of empowerment. And if you could talk about that when you introduced people to your work and introduced maybe some young people to the art, can you talk about the empowerment that comes with what you do? Of course. I mean, I think ignorance is one of the most powerful impediments to progress. And I think Mr. Trump is just a racist, ignorant, stupid person. That's it. And as Shura here said, it wasn't a surprise because we don't expect anything more of these kind of people because we have a lot of... not a lot, but we have a small group in Mexico who has all the power. I mean, we have Carlos Slim who actually owns the country. If you... I mean, we are always saying if you have a cell phone or if you go on that airplane, I don't know, you are always working for Slim. Some percentage of your money always goes to Slim. And I think people is getting used to it. I mean, people is always thinking that's the way it is. We know how... Last night we were talking about this situation with Armando and Antonio and Barbara, my colleagues at Facto Teatro. And Armando said something very, very true. Everybody knows what's going on in Mexico, but everybody knows also how to take advantage of this situation because in Mexico, if you have an economical crisis, you can always go outside your house and put a stand of tamales or selling anything you want on the streets even though it's forbidden because the only thing you have to do is to give money to somebody and they will let you. They will leave you alone. And I think one of the most powerful tools we have is to also bring art and more knowledge to people. Not only art. I mean, people is too busy just trying to survive that there is no space for amusement for half, five minutes just to relax and say, okay, let me read. I don't care if it's a book, a magazine, anything. I just want to sit down and watch TV. I want to disconnect myself because I deserve at least a moment of disconnection of this tragic life. I mean, I'm trying to expose something. But I think now with that way, there's a lot of people in Mexico trying to give, again, people the chance to enjoy art and to tell them this is not only for leader, I mean for intellectual, intellectual people. It's also for you because on TV they're always saying to you, art is boring, art is for domes. Art is not good for you. You have to see these sparking lights and you have to try to look like this or to look like that and you have to wear these clothes. You know, it's so much pressure, so much pressure. And outside the big cities, people is just starving. They don't care. And also, I mean, I've been touring in the U.S. since the year 1996. And when I go to cities like Chicago or New York where there's this huge Mexican population, it's very, I mean, we don't have Mexicans in the audience because they are working. You know, and they are, when we talk to them, they say, oh, I would love to go, but I can't. Either I'm working or I'm too tired to go or it's too expensive. So it's very desperate and it's the same case in Mexico. And now the government is really trying to kill the cultural institutions and the theater groups and the music groups that have something to say and they are doing a really good job, which is very sad. So it's hard to survive as an artist, but I think we have to keep doing it, because it's not that we are, in fact, a theater, have a political flag saying we are this or we are that. No, what we are trying to say is that it doesn't matter what are your beliefs or your political tendencies. Art is for everybody and it's for you also and you can do it and you can enjoy it and please come. I don't know. I think we'll turn it over to questions, so please feel free to fire away. So it's high profile as both of you are. You did mention how your life was threatened by these, but in other ways, have your life been threatened? There were personal questions? Not because I'm an artist, but because I'm a citizen. You know, I mean, I'm more scared of walking by night on my city of having an encounter with a police patrol with a criminal, because police have a badge and they have the law on their side and they can just make you disappear if they want to. They can kidnap you or they can kill you or they can beat you. It doesn't matter because they are the law. And the thing is that there is no division between crime and police or government. It's the same thing, because you cannot understand the way Mexico is now without the bless and the participation of every level of society. I mean, also as the people, we are part of the problem because it always is like Armando also said last night. I mean, we are always complaining about the government and the politicians, but what about us? Who buys the drugs? Who pays the police just to get free? Who is the other part of the corruption? And this victimization of the people is used by the powerful people to say, you are good and there's evil. We are going to fight evil. Okay, let's go fight it, but at the same time, they are asking money for everything. I mean, it's just, it's very complex because really corruption is a way of living and it's really hard to break this structure. It's almost impossible at this point. I'm cautious. I mean, I'm always watching in the United States and where I live, specifically where I live, I'm always looking at the cars that go by and things like that. When I'm in Mexico, now I would not go to Mexico by myself at night. I go to Mexico at night for a demonstration about a young man who was shot and killed by the Border Patrol, but there are a lot of us who go, so I don't have any compunctions about doing that. During the day when I'm there, I know so many people and I treat everybody with as much kindness as I can to tell you the truth. If somebody wants a pair of socks, I give them a pair of socks and I'm always, you know, I'm friendly to people and I know that a lot of the people are not particularly savory characters, but I can't make that judgment about what put that person in the position that he or she happens to be at any given time and as my mother used to say, you can catch more flies with honey than you can with vinegar any day, so I'm willing to do what I have to do and I don't, a lot of people ask me that, aren't you afraid to go, aren't you afraid to go? And I'm not. I have no fear about going at all, so... But you said earlier that, you know, you fear what's happening in your community more than you do in Mexico. Well, yes, yeah, largely because of the Minutemen and what they're up to, although again, they're positioning themselves on the border. I'm 35 miles north of the border, and they're out in the boondocks, in a sense. I mean, they're not sitting right along the wall that is adjacent to Nogales as an example. I mean, they're going out in areas where they feel that people are crossing and people, for the most part, are not crossing right under the noses of border patrol. Sometimes that happens, but for the most part, they're not. They're going very circuitous routes, so, yeah, I don't have a fear there. Anyone else? I'm sorry, try to continue. A few years ago, I spent a day photographing the King Anne home ranch. Yes. And two things. One thing struck me and one thing I could not wrap my arms around. The thing that struck me was that night, the number of people that crossed in that one small area. So I'd like you to talk a little bit about how many people crossed the border. Okay. And the thing that I couldn't really understand or wrap my arms around was the relationship between the men and the border patrol. So I'll speak a little bit about that. Okay. I think the number of people who are crossing would be very hard for me to give you an exact number. I can't. But I do know from the people that I see at the Commodore on the days that I'm there, sometimes it's up to a hundred people. Sometimes it's more. And many of the people who are there have been in the United States for years, as I had said before. And so their family is here. They want to get back. You know, it's difficult. I can't really answer exactly how. I mean, I would never know exactly how many. It's thousands of people crossing. That night, the men stretched out for, I think it was about five miles. Yes. You know, in a site. Mm-hmm. And they saw over 200, over 200 people crossing. I think in that five-mile area. And I think the Kingdom of Orange is actually a ways from the border. It is. I remember. It is. You're right about that. So it was just amazing to think about the numbers and the density of the way it would filter across. And in one body. 200 people, 200 living people in one body. Yeah. It was just a phenomenal thing. Yeah. It is thousands. And they go into very, very desolate areas. I mean, just unbelievably desolate areas. And because they don't know. And if they're with a group and they have a coyote, the coyote says, when you cross the border, it's five miles to Tucson. And they have no reason to not. They want to believe that. Obviously, like any of us, it's really, it's only five miles, I think I can make it. But in fact, it isn't like that. And if you fall ill during your journey, that's tough luck. No one for the most part is going to stay with you. And there was a story. This happened. This is just such one of these. Everything is tragic actually in this situation. But a 14-year-old girl named Joselein, who was traveling with a group with her 10-year-old brother. And they were trying to reunite with their mother who was in Los Angeles. And they got to a point. I mean, Joselein, they were up in the mountains, out of this town, not very far. We need to wrap up. Okay, that's okay. I can talk more about this after. Okay, I'm sorry. No, it's okay. You have to. My crew is doing that. I want to thank both of you, of course, and all of you for being here. And please come to more festival offerings. And very quickly, you haven't gotten enough. I'm sure it's doing an entire lecture tomorrow at Landmark... No, tomorrow. Yes, tomorrow. At Landmark College at 7 o'clock. There's also... Sorry? Eight. Seven o'clock. It's eight. Oh, it's eight. It's eight. It's seven o'clock in our program. Oh, okay. We will double check on that. We will be there, not to worry. And there's also a performance, a free performance in the Landmark lawn before the talk at 7.30. No, at 6.30. Okay. At 6.30 in our program, but we will check on that. And Alejandro and his whole company with Native Paper has one more show at 3 o'clock today. So please also come and see that. Thank you so much. Please let this conversation continue. I know there's so much more to be said about it. So continue the dialogue. I will have a number of items that I found on the desert that I would like for people to see and to pick up and to just imagine the journey.