 Here we go. All right Good evening everyone. This is John Alden chair of the city of Essex Junction DRB I am going to read a short message here Regarding the meeting format it is a hybrid meeting this meeting of the Essex Junction DRB will come to order This meeting is a hybrid meeting Which means that some or all of the public body is meeting remotely and some are meeting physically at 2 Lincoln Street Where the public may attend to observe listen and participate? contemporaneously One member of this public body or other staff is present at 2 Lincoln Street, and we have actually a whole board here Others can participate remotely if desired Please note that while we strive to provide for those Attending remotely to participate in the public comment period there may be technical difficulties or reasons that otherwise prevent or interrupt remote participation Hold on one second John. Sorry so Scott Harriet is asking Get to do it all over again That was your practice run. I'm not doing I don't I have to do this every meeting Therefore it is important to note that the open meeting law Only ensures the public's right to participate in comment at a public meeting by attending the designated physical physical location as posted in the notice and agenda if a member of the public or public body has Technical difficulties accessing this meeting remotely. Please alert us by using the chat feature on zoom or by e-mailing our Mahoney at sxjunction.org and In the event of technical difficulties that cannot be resolved we may continue the meeting if necessary to December 15th at 6 30 p.m. At this location There's more Please note that all the votes taken during this meeting are that are not unanimous will be done by a roll call voice vote In accordance with the law as required by the open meeting Well, let's start the meeting by taking a roll call attendance of all members Participating in the meeting and those members attending remotely Identify themselves to ensure that they can hear and be heard throughout the meeting Okay, John Alden I'm present Kristin gilday Rob mountain Maggie Massey Anyone remotely on the PRB He's not on as best as I can tell Oh four members Do we have five or seven? Five, okay, so I have a quorum good. All right, so the meeting is called to order. I say let's get going Item number one is the audience for visitors That is the point where people Who have something to say about an item that is not on our agenda tonight can Approach and speak is there anyone in the audience who wishes to speak about something not on the agenda? Being none anybody in on remotely that would like to say something about an item not on our agenda tonight Take that also as a no All right additions or amendments to the agenda Regina anything. I do not have anything Public to be heard isn't that the same thing? Sorry All right minutes regular meeting of July 21st 2022 they were in your packet I Was not there but I will entertain a motion to approve the minutes Motion to approve the minutes Is there a second? Any discussion or changes to the minutes? Not all in favor of the minutes as issued I Any opposed? Ocean carries. Thank you Public hearing item number five approved approval for a minor site plan amendment and approval extension of a few D for six residential units with parking at 41 Maple Street in the R2 district by Gabe handy owner And I see members present Ready to speak for Gabe. So come on update I got to do that That's the one thing I asked for In front of me well you've gone very fast you've skipped to step H on page two It's year five, but it's my first rodeo H very highlighted All right Anybody wishing to speak tonight on the motion in front of us? or the agenda item in front of us, please raise your right hand and Answer in the affirmative after I read the statement. I hereby swear that the evidence I give in the cause under consideration Shall be the whole truth and nothing but the truth. So help me God or under the pains and penalties of perjury I do very good anybody else thinking they might speak tonight I do I do. Thank you All right, great. Uh, you want to ask folks online? Anyone online? Apparently not All right Go ahead sure So David Burke O'Leary Burke as you said, this is six units The parcel is at 41 Maple Street and it's in the R2 zoning district the R2 zoning district the loud for the These six units as far as the density The original approval did not include any setback waivers each of the Units was proved inside of what's called a footprint lot And the footprint lot is solely so that the unit sits on land it owns Everything outside of the footprint lot is in common So each of the future owners will own one six of everything outside of their footprint So as far as the what we're here for tonight as as john mentioned, it's two things One is the mylar the When a project gets approved within a certain period of time a mylar of the property flat gets submitted and the chair signs it And in this case the city of Essex sends it over to Essex for filing in their land records Our office did provide the mylar The mylar did not get passed on to be signed So it was something internal that did not happen but the mylar was provided and This is to make that a make it official That that flat was found downstairs within the last month So it never made it over to the the town offices The other item is the the difference in the style of the units. So in the submission this is six units on this site is pretty tight and There was no setback waivers Everything met the conventional setbacks for the r2 district But the plan That was used for the house came from our office I was trying to find something that was this small because these are small units And what I found was a story and a half Building and that's what was submitted as part of the part of the package The approval there was discussion at the meeting Um john may recall There's discussion about design review design review does not apply to this district So the the overarching Uh requirement for this is that the buildings are less than the maximum So a two-story building meets the regulations Um the building permit, uh, that was the building permits were submitted And unfortunately mr. Bushy, I did not submit anything with the building permits Submitted the building permits unfortunately former staff approved those building permits Apparently with the assumption that those samples that were given during the process Um were what was going to be built Um, that's not what I hear from mr. Handy. He says there was full knowledge Of the two-story before they started former staff saw the these units in winewski and said they were fine um At the end of the day, it's unfortunate that uh That this occurred but The regulations do not preclude two-story or even a little bit higher than two-story So they do meet the requirements. The only condition of the former approval was that I think john I I recall that you said yes design review Does not apply. It would be nice if there's different colors. That worked itself into the Uh approval. So the only building related condition in the approval was There they should be different colors and they are there's six different colors So That's what this is Any other information coming from the applicant at this point The units were staked by our our our office. They're within the approval prints And as far as I can tell so I have the original submission from You know the first the Last presentation. I've got the new one in my opinion. The footprints are the same. They don't Footprints haven't changed. I don't have I wouldn't have made you change A plat personally, but I understand that that's that was recommended. So that's been done I also Love the idea that we have design review in this area, which we don't yet That's a change that was recommended and made to be offered in the new version But that doesn't apply because it's not in place yet. So I feel like we're We're in a very awkward position that we thought something was going to happen. It's not happened Something was approved by somebody who's not here anymore. Now we have They're built, you know, they're there So the hardship would be enormous to fix that And based on this approval that we think we Have given you as a Municipality it'd be hard press for us to tell you to do something about it. I think so I I'm looking for information Regina. Is there any staff comment on this that Helps us With this. I mean the worst part about it for me is precedent, but you know, hopefully this will I don't know what to say So hopefully there's a I mean, I think legally this is fine, but I don't like it Yeah, so there's there's a memo from me in the in a packet And addressing these two separate issues I This was approved as a plan unit development and there is a Section of design review within the plan unit development within your zoning regulations So it's it's different than what you're thinking of which is the design overview, but I think the point Remains that two stories are very much a Allowable use in this zoning district. So I don't think there's anything That has With the buildings that are not in compliance with the land development code. So in terms of making an amendment, I think it's We recommend that the amendment is In line with the land development code that you've got Um, I was just sorry just one other thing. I just want to clarify um That the subdivision approval um Has to happen because there's no adjustment of how much time you have from approving your subdivision and getting the mylar recorded, so that's why that Table the item on the table is to just extend the approval timeline of the subdivision That's the only reason because it's the only way to make the so that's really all we're here for so basically The approval was done. The mylar wasn't filed. We need to get it filed In the meantime the project was built. It's still in compliance with the land development code Staff apparently approved the changes to the design which are In footprint and in in execution That you can't really tell except when you look at them. They they're different than an image people saw before Which that's the only part, you know, like normally since we don't actually have purview over that it's hard to say that's wrong Right because we we can't actually make a decision based on what they look like because it's not part of our review process In this district at this time However, you know, it's it's We've we've had a few instances in the past where that You know, somebody shows us a drawing we all get excited and then they build something else and somehow we've got to fix that this Doesn't seem like the one where that applies Because we're not actually supposed to see that image In this district. Yeah, I think that the specific elevation is not Um It's not a component of the design review in the planned unit development section of the ldc Elevations are a component of the design overview Um, I would say john that it's here say as far as former staff. I think it I think it You know being okay with it or not. You know, I don't really think that that's part of tonight It's as I said, it's it's unfortunate That those those units were for the size of the units But I know that there was discussion including from myself that That what was provided was a story and a half building. I think because there was no design review There wasn't anything specific in the approval that they must be Story and a half there wasn't because there couldn't be the regulations Don't allow you didn't allow you to have something like that in there. In fact, it didn't even allow the requirement a Strong requirement for difference in colors. It became a recommendation and I think is a good recommendation At the end of the day, they're within the approved footprints. They're the same size They have a front porch So it's it's the difference between the the story and a half that was presented And the uh the two story um Board members Do you have anyone have any questions or comment? I do not Any legal questions any technical questions members of the public? um Would anybody like to comment? I attended the meeting with the original plan design and um And it was as hard as it was to swallow because we are neighbors that are literally right behind where the properties are Exactly eight feet away from my property line And we are looking at large two-story homes That are glaring in our backyards They're not aesthetically pleasing and we were told they'd be A story and a half we have a story and a half farmhouse And we're looking at these very tall buildings that affect Our backyard our lighting in our backyard The lighting that goes through our windows In our living room and it's just been really discouraging because through this entire process We feel like we've been misled About what was being built how it was being built And we were also told that there would be You know plants and things that would be more aesthetically pleasing Nothing looks great back there And now we're concerned originally it was single family homes Um, they don't have garages. I don't know who's going to purchase them without garages and walking to the back With groceries and everything and I guess my concern now is I'd like to know what is the intention Are they going to be rentals? Are they going to be you know, how many families are going to live in these buildings? and the It's definitely Two stories the house the the house isn't we're just feeling frustrated because We've been citizens there for 20 some years and We just feel like things just keep sliding under the table and getting passed through and We don't hear about these things until it's too late And there's nothing we can do about it and it's been frustrating We planted Plants to try to you know grow tall for privacy But you still can't cushion sound when people start living there in these six houses in a five lot piece of land I understand the need that we need housing We have a lot of empty apartments that it seems like maybe that aren't being filled And I'm just wondering at what price are these going to go for can people even afford them? um anyway It is what it is But I'm hoping that for the people that are directly affected by it that some consideration will be taken into you know making things as aesthetically pleasing and also being thoughtful about The border because it's literally Eight feet from my property line and when you have a big two-story building That's eight feet from your small property quarter of an anchor not even It it's very It has a big large impact for sure um So I guess that's just we just want to know what are the true intentions Where are where is this going? And you know, we can only have supposedly a six foot fence. Well a six foot fence does not Buffer very much at all and the fence is Getting worn looking stockade. Um, it would be nice if there could be A stronger better fence that could be um, you know improved upon Um, I believe it can't be higher, but if it could that would be nice Um, it's going to take a few years for our plants to grow to try to get some privacy because we have no privacy now Um, we didn't choose to buy an apartment. I mean we bought our property to be anyway Thank you Um, can I ask some questions? Sure. Uh, and maybe this can be um, either the applicant or you I'm I'm looking at the pictures I'm looking at what we approved as a site plan Uh, the new flat that's in front of me has no landscaping on it, but uh, maybe the So the drawings still do Are the plant things that are shown on the applicant side of the fence there yet? Are they have they been installed? Are you talking are you asking me? So there are little so we bought eight Large arboretums for your side row for our side And on the other side are these little tiny ones And the thing is those things need to be watered regularly to be taken care of so these little two foot high Ones are the ones that Dave is that So the approval required that the landscaping plan Be done by landscape professional So there was no there was landscaping on the plan that was approved for the condition Was that it be redone? To be reviewed by staff so tj boil associates Did a landscape plan my understanding is that all of that land that was approved that was provided and approved Um, and my understanding is that all of that is in Um, we just on tuesday had our survey crew go out and do a bunch of locations including Uh, the landscaping so A follow-up separate from this A follow-up with regina Is a record drawing so we'll find out if everything's there, but we've been told that everything for that plan is there uh I'm just um struggling to imagine that a two foot high planting behind a six foot high fence Even was worth planting um So Yeah, I don't know what you know offhand what the sizes were supposed to be also So that'd be part of part of what we'd be looking at but um, I think the So I'm also looking at the Images is it true that there are No windows on the second floor of the units facing So you're you're looking at yes just siding kind of above the and we are looking at on the Bottom floor. There's a large window on our side. So there's definitely You know windows like we're definitely in the need to Is the is there a fence in place now? There's a there well, yep, there's a six foot stockade fence And so you can still see over the Yeah, the windows but but I am thankful and I was When I saw when we saw the second story going up when we thought it was just going to be one and a half like a little loft I was appreciative that there weren't windows on the That side that looks on indirectly into our backyard up above. So I am thankful for that and appreciative of that Um anyone else in the audience? Yes, sir Thank you I'm Todd Logan. I live in Essex uh eight McGregor with Tina. Tina's my wife. Um It it we keep saying that this is unfortunate And unfortunate What's unfortunate is we have six behemoth structures smashed into a shoebox lot and At night, they're they're so brightly lit. They're so illuminated that it looks like we're looking at three or four drive-in movie screens in our backyard because it's like all wall and the In particular and behind our house. It's a it's like a bright yellow house. So it's just like a big huge white screen um There's a lot of light pollution and I can only imagine the noise pollution that will be when we have six families It just seems to me that every step of the way The legality This project has has gone right to the edge of legality and just backed off a little It's just just just this side of being legal. It's like oh one and a half stories great Well, we're just gonna you know, we could do two stories. I guess it's legal I mean we would be within our legal rights to to build that extra whole story and then so that Voila, you know, what do you lo and behold and we have six full two-story houses, which whenever It approved initially and all we can do is say that's unfortunate um Could we could we um petition to have a taller fence than six feet? but there's a six foot stockade fence and I understand that the zoning says no you cannot have um Fences higher than six feet, but I just feel like um corners have been cut um Lies have been weaved all the way through this project and it's You know Tina was really nice. It's it's It's really aggravating and now to know that that handy Or bushy signed it over to handy. I was even wondering if this meeting was going to be about Uh letting us know that they're actually partitioning each of these houses into into two different apartments because um Uh handy is you know, mr. Apartment and I wondering do we have any guarantee that that's not going to happen I'm the deferred of Regina on that can they turn a single dwelling unit into a double without some type of Approval the density is six they can't and they're for sale It's not I mean I whether the rented for sale is not part of this process, but they are for sale and and they're single families And they can't be anything else Okay, because they have been but there's been construction people in there Working very far late into the night all summer long and I could only imagine that what they're doing And I we know there's two bathrooms in those houses So it'd be it doesn't take too much imagination to say Well, you know, we're gonna have a bathroom apartment up above and there's a bathroom apartment down And I'm wondering if that's what's been going with all the noise and the hammering and the Middle of the night. I'm talking like all night long. So don't we have the noise regulations for work hours? potentially And I just feel like this got way down the road before it came to the attention of anybody who was listening You know and not certainly, you know I Drove by him, you know a few times and went wow, I didn't know they were gonna look like that You know, well, I would invite you to come into our backyard and step into our backyard and look at these Six dinos, but the lighting piece bothers me a lot too because You know the goal was to have lighting For the safety of people walking around and so we I understand the ballers and I and just the ballers are driving me nuts because when you drive by them at night the you know, they're not Down shielded to the point where you can't see them, you know, you're seeing them So I'm wondering like how's that work because that's all you see it. Just the bright lights so I think that lighting is kind of a Issue for me, but I can't imagine that they're on all night and they're gonna just illuminate the sides of the hour On all night I get up several times to go to the bathroom and I see them every single time Yeah, um, so I'm I'm I hear you on the lighting piece. I hear you on Planting piece because you know the planting is appear to be there and they appear to match You know the dots on the yeah planting page here, but they clearly aren't doing anything for screening No, I feel like in good. They they they in good faith. Yes. We put plants in the ground, but Oh, nobody's been watering them plants when you put arbor betties in the ground You've got to water them every day for the first year or they will just wither and die And no one's going to take care of these Plants the way we've been trying to uh nurture our plants on our side of the fence And I'm really concerned and I'm really angry that we that there is a zoning There's a legality of this of a six foot fence that we have to live with Even though bushy and handy or bushy has been able to stretch uh Way over their line And we just have to say well, what are we going to do? I mean it's it's within the legal limits So geez that's unfortunate I mean, it's not just us I mean there are like four houses and then on the other side of the street on maple street There's all those other apartments everybody. There's so many people that are being affected by these massive structures And if these massive structures have houses that you know These guys if if the inhabitants of these houses are all neighborly and they love each other and they get along great That's that's going to be wonderful. But if they if you have six houses that are smashed Together I call them they have moat lots. It's like there's a grass moat around each house. That's all they get You know you get people that are not going to uh start bickering with each other You know I'll uh, I'll probably push back a little bit on the the density and and the house type because it's it's all fine I mean it's it's allowed. It's within the requirements of What we've asked for we did ask We did we were happy to see that somebody was pushing the density That's allowed in the district. So I I'm not sure I can follow you with that I'm I'm a little Disappointed and underwhelmed by the execution of the buildings themselves. They're a little Stark they're ugly But again, I've got my hands tied on that in terms of our regulations since I can't And what about so no so there there could be no Exceptions made for fencing that goes up. I I'm not sure about that. It seems like the fencing. I know there's a height Something in there before you I mean, I always thought it was well, you can put up a six foot fence But if it's bigger than that you need to get approval for it so, um, maybe we can look at that and Find some way to make a fencing option at least more I mean the The issue normally is I have a residential use on one side and a residential use on the other and And that's been going on forever. So that shouldn't be an issue but um, clearly, uh, this is a change that's More impactful than was represented even if it's legal um That maybe there's some redress that we can look at because it would be nice if we could get a fence that was as high as the top of the window because we do have a huge too huge too pain window that looks like maybe it's their living room and it's Probably more than half of that window is above our fence line And it's like staring us right in the in into our house And literally, I mean if I reached over the the fence I could almost touch Eight feet so um the eight feet's The normal setback anywhere in the village. So I'm I don't really have any I know I I'm not I'm not saying that it's not legal. I'm just saying that it It's a little surprising the way it came out is what I think we're all surprised that the way it actually came out Yeah, um, so I guess I would go back to the other options that are normally available to us as room as mitigation measures for when buffers are Desirable and that usually is fencing and landscaping um, I would think that we'd want to Allow a little bit more Um fencing and buffering If we can And and I definitely want something done about the lights. I don't think that's any way Something that we should have to live with to have I mean essentially you as at the at your seated height in a car Those are like spotlights coming at you and and that that doesn't feel like it. I mean we don't let I don't think we let people do that I don't care if you're in an airplane. You can't see them the average person walking by is is gut glare and that's not the intention of the lighting You know, I don't know what they're missing. Are they missing a shield or something? Do you know anything about that, Dave? I don't yet, but one of the um One of the follow-ups that Regina's asked for outside of this On the on the locations that we did is It does not appear that the bollards that went in are the bollards that were approved when Do you don't do that? So Those will have to get replaced if they're not Yeah, I the ones i'm used to seeing have a you know A cone saved gate or something that really you know, you want the light on the ground You don't need it on the side of the building walking towards the light instead of an illumination thing Yeah, yeah, yeah um So what are what are we actually here for we're we're here to extend the date on the filing of the Platte is that that's really the only thing that we're We can do um Yeah, I mean the other the other components of the Approval are Like Dave just said they'll they will be done and addressed before C. L. So that's you know, that's the That's the pinpoint This if the Lights are like upcast instead of downcast. That's definitely not um Not what was likely approved and so that'll get corrected um Can we shut them off for now just so the neighbors aren't blinded every time they Look out the back door Is there any reason to leave the lights on And if there's any more hammering at night, I would think that's a I wouldn't think they need to be on until the first sale So I can ask if they can be turned off My only concern would be if we just turn them off and then that makes it easier for everybody to live with When people the first people who move in they're just going to turn them right back on again We still need to address the style so that the 4co that still needs to be addressed and I will say I believe With the story and a half and again, it was done for the footprint Um, these aren't behemoths. They're 30 by 32. They're small structures But I understand in the backyard that that close it looks big, but that's that's a small structure Think of the Champlain Valley fair When the fair comes to town, it's a massive display when they pack up and leave you go How did all of that fit in this little yard This is like filling that yard with fair the story and a half units had windows on the ends which would have been more of an impact Then not having windows on the second floor. Okay. Well, the landscaping is not I don't believe the board has any abilities there Staff's recommended approval So so we can't do anything about getting better landscaping or getting proper larger trees uh, well, I'm I'm just The I just don't even know what to say because the the whole point of doing the landscaping thing and having a professional landscaper do it and then having staff approve it would be to get proper landscaping and and if that's all happened and We don't have that Then there's no the kind of thing that it tells me is never Accept the plan again until we're happy with the landscaping so staff will never again have any purview over anything which is a burden on everyone I think there's a lot of in between between those two things you just said Well, I don't have definitely things staff. I don't like it when people come in front of us and are Very unhappy and or we're unhappy or everyone's unhappy. It's just not fair. So yeah I mean I would 100 agree that further practice in the future is that you have a landscaping plan in front of you That you like before you close the hearing I'll go on record that I'm not happy That's I mean the the word I used was unfortunate, but I'm not happy with that. Yeah, yeah So, um, can we have a little chat with Gabe before this? co happens I mean, I don't know what legally we have the ability to do but I'm I'm frustrated that our legal Hands are tied and we're all unhappy That I know I'm I don't want to put you on the spot either, but um How about we'll see if anybody in the audience has any Thing to say would like to say anything you do have another hand up online. Oh, let's do that anyone online Hi, yeah, my name is Barney Matthews. I live at 43 maple I just want to echo what people have been saying about the the lights uh with the plans that we saw with the Plants it was going to block everything from our side of property to 41 the lights are blinding like they're they're they're crazy bright So it would be really good to do something about that um I would I'd like to Comment on a couple of things I I had heard somebody had mentioned about the noise when working I mean, we are literally next door to them and I have to say that the The workers were good like they were working long hours and there were lights on but I didn't hear any Noise, so I say that was that is good um The other thing I want to throw out there is There's a right away from our property from 43 to 41 for the houses and our deed say that that could be five Houses on that plot and they built six. I don't know legally if Our deed has any saying over that but I just want to throw that out there Or that your deed on your property would have any impact on somebody else's property Unless it was all part of one subdivision then when the subdivision was made um, there should be Legally binding information on each parcel affected So I don't know anything about that. Is anybody heard anything you know anything about that Dave? I And I don't think it came up at our last uh meeting so I was I was here for that That's for you're at 43 maple Yeah, and it just says for the right of way because uh, it's still our still our driveway that they go over The right of ways is it's for five houses. Um another Brinkle Yep Um, I would say that is a potential legal issue. Um, it's not enough necessarily a city issue the lot can um Legally hold six units on it, which is what it's approved for but um That doesn't uh, I'm I'm not going to comment on the Whether there's a civic civil issue there Yeah, I think my my biggest gripe at the moment is the lights because they're Super bright Um All right, uh, I'll go back to the board members any Comment at this point any additional comments? I did have a question probably for barney um It's just on on his house's property. There's The landscaping plan shows six foot australian pines between his property and the site Is that what you have there? Absolutely, no That's not that's the old one. This is the old landscaping plan. That's not the tj boil plan and and uh So the tj boil plan was file has filed somewhere in the city office. Yeah, and I'd love to see it. I guess but uh Could I ask a question? Oh I guess The the plans that you approved were only ever like bird's eye view looking down Um, we had renderings um of the ground looking across. Uh, not specifically. No, they they presented the Image of a typical one and a half story From the ground is survival standing on the ground looking at a one and a half story Yeah, it wasn't set on that was what was approved and yet we have the two stories Um That's Is that because I was going to suggest I don't know I mean this is all happened without coming back to the plan the planning commissioner of the d.r.b Now in this case, so it's all brand new to us. We don't we don't understand what happened in there and we don't know what the sequence of events were but but the The testimony is that it was shown to staff It's here say at this point because staff is not available. Who is staff? Staff was robin pierce the former community development director planning director And he's no longer employed Because I was just thinking that Going forward to future plans you'd think that You'd want You'd want a ground level view as well as a bird's eye view Especially for things like landscaping Well, is he that level if the bird if the ground level of you shows like Trees that are kind of like going up so high you just see a circle when you're looking at the architect. Yeah, no, I'll just uh, I'll say that um That's one thing that we've pushed for in the rewrite of the rules for the land development code is that Um while that sounds great. It's not actually required in most of the districts in the village city It's um Doesn't give us the ability to review those Images or even consider that information So, you know kind of handy birds eye view information We have the birds eye view information that on the plantings that it's relies on us knowing what The plantings are which usually takes somebody labeling the drawing and saying this is a Uh, you know, either a certain caliper around the planted Trunk or a certain height so they measure trees in a couple different ways and shrubs So usually we get that information and if we have a We do have planting books and it'll tell us what the mature height is and so on and how long it takes us to get there So we would know that and we would be able to understand whether or not the plantings are going to achieve the screening that we're Trying to achieve and in this case uh without You know with the planting plan being resubmitted after the approval Well, I'm seeing this for the first time right now so if it's Been given there's some bigger trees here. There's some smaller shrubs In the screening locations between these buildings and the neighboring buildings So a t.o Is A dark american arbor vitey in a common name and they're Supposed to be five feet high And they can actually grow to 25 so Until I see something five feet high. I'm not sure the Um planting plan has been installed as approved Um And as genus said that would be part of the the c.o What is the cd certificate of occupancy to make sure that the improvements went in the way they were supposed to Who will be responsible for grooming the plants and caring for them? The owner is responsible for maintaining the plants in a healthy condition that are in their moat area um, they've got the whole thing so the The p.u.d. Means that the besides the the footprint lot, which is only you want a couple of feet larger than the building itself Um is common space So the common owner whoever that is and and we also asked for a copy of the homeowner's association guides Which would require them to maintain uh, the plantings so both um, I mean if if the perimeter Outline around the each footprint of the building Gives the individual owner of that building The responsibility to take care of the stuff within their own small boundary That's one thing but the homeowner's association as in all the owners are still going to have to take care of everything else So all the mowing the plowing the plantings um as approved by the commission or by the staff Until and and throughout the length of time that they're there So you don't get to put them in and a year later they die and you're done That's not how that works. They have to be kept in a healthy condition. They have to be I think in some cases. I've seen words such as Thriving as in they're growing. They're not, you know dead or half dead um, so We'll need to see the planting Plantings in the way that the plan says they're supposed to be in and we'll need to see Uh, the homeowner's association requirements for keeping them alive Uh, and thriving in whatever terminology the city uses to um require that We do have the homeowner's association documents um That was approved shortly, uh, you know that Like you say If it was requirement that we had to come back, you know, we tj Boyle's plan That would have happened that was passed on it occurred Everything everything has occurred. I don't think We didn't think it is in your No, neither and and I'll I'll just say that it again it piles on the we we Trust in the discussions that go on between staff and applicants Uh, in this case, it feels like, you know, everybody was kind of Misled or let down or And and I got no I got no authority here other than to say, okay, let's see what let's see what was really approved Let's make sure that we get that Before there's a ceo Let's fix the lights because they're driving everybody crazy um And I think that's uh, you know, I would love to see the whole fence thing I mean you get another half story on your building. You owe me two more feet of fence Or something I would think yeah that we might have an argument. I know it's not I'm just making some I said I would like to see that that was Story then you would have approved it because you probably would have Well, you have no choice and and I'll say again that in in most districts And I hope the um city council and the public agree with the Work that the planning commission did to say that it's appropriate that the planners get to see some of this stuff in other districts besides the village center, which is the only one that has design review so, um When you hear a discussion about that at the city council meeting Please come out and support it and say it's important for us to maintain the character of our Community by knowing what you're putting in and that's going to include more design review and just show us what you're doing It's only fair right because most of the time We're only allowed to get a plan So that's my pitch I'll leave it there The word unfortunate keeps coming up Um, but you know the only way to change that is to change the rules and so We changed them. We did our work to change them. Hopefully they'll get approved by The bodies having jurisdiction, which is the city council And the next time we see a plan we'll be able to say show me what it looks like. I want to see right In the meantime, let's see if we can get this Turned around so that we're all at least happier with it instead of being totally disgruntled um, so I don't know what kind of motion I what a kind of motion do I need I need a motion that says we Prove extending the flat filing deadline or is that just a technicality? We need a motion that says that yeah, we have a hand Yep, um, we have a hand. Thank you for keeping an eye on that. I need some I need somehow all right, um also My name is nagin belier. I live at 12 McGregor street. Um, I just have a couple of quick points. Um Just so that I'm on the record. Um I was not able to Appear at the last meeting. Uh, I have two young kids a 10 year old and an eight year old and more of them was sick and Yes, our privacy has Definitely been compromised. I have a photo of this window as it appears over our six foot fence um So the kids are playing outside all the time. We have a Pool in the summertime and our privacy was definitely compromised and um We've had to install blackout curtains so my kids can sleep because these lights are so bright my husband had to Go over at 10 o'clock this summer when there was a woman painting and had music playing and was talking on her phone so, you know there's definitely been some discomfort already and um I Before construction ever even started I had an issue um, I needed to confront uh person driving an excavator or a grater. I'm not sure what the machine is called uh, the property boundary marking metal pins were graded underground and he um the day after that that was actually April 14th, it was the monday And the permits the meeting for those permits to be approved actually occurred that night And so he had done that before the approval had even happened um and the next day Took uh machine and started taking out trees that were incredibly close To our property now our fence is set back within our property by A foot and a half so that we can maintain our fence Without trespassing And because they graded up to our fence Which was technically on our property and the pins were buried I called the police I had an officer come and she said there's nothing I can do you have to talk to the village offices Those pins have still not been replaced terry haas and um I'm sorry. I don't remember the gentleman's name the head of the pop um public works department came and observed That there was no boundary markings All that they have done before the plantings occurred because we have um a black walnut tree that is on the border and several oak saplings and some um Popple trees, I believe they're called um that we wanted to be left as a screen um So I just wanted to have that all on the record those pins have not been replaced And I don't believe that's my responsibility to have it resurveyed. It shouldn't be a cost to me um, did that where you're excuse me where you are um plantings that were where they disturbed Between the property line and where your fences did you lose any planting there were just some small bushes some nothing that we had planted or invested in but um I was very concerned that we were going to lose the black walnut that was on our border because I knew where the metal pin was had been and I had made sure that that tree that gave us a lot of screening and You know food for the wildlife and my kids like to play with and collect the walnuts But you know It just seemed like a total disrespect to us and it left a really bad taste in my mouth going forward. I've uh kept my eye on a lot of the work that's gone on and um in speaking with terry haas I said, you know, I wasn't at the meeting but I was told it was going to be a Shorter building this story in half Carriage house whatever was approved And she said oh well that was changed after the warning of the public meeting and so now, you know, I'm in doubt of What else is going to change after? Things have been approved. It doesn't feel fair We've lived in that house for 10 years we bought Bought it because of the neighborhood and greatly appreciated the privacy that we found within the village We know that's hard to find it's a great school district and raising kids here is important to us and I just need to have these thoughts on the record so um something else I wanted to touch on was I read A planning commission letter from robin pierce There are a couple of points on the plan It doesn't seem that they've been addressed on the property The first is that there should be a trash area with Greenery surrounding it as a visual blind. It doesn't appear that there's any paved area With any fencing or greenery It doesn't appear that there's proper parking for guests. Um, let's see what else And Aside from We've already beaten this dead horse the lighting Um, there has been a smoke alarm warning battery chirping for at least two months And It must be the unit behind us possibly not Tina and Todd said they don't hear it I hear it every minute and a half So I have actually a photo on here that I took When the fencing discussion came up and you can see on our side of the fence we planted Arboretta five years ago when the property was sold so that we could start our green fence Um, and I don't know if You're interested in seeing this if I could pass this over. This is my iPad You can just put it on Our six foot fence and that is the first Story window of you know, whatever part of the home that that is And I'd also like to point out that second floor which said um when terry said they were going to be lofts my Mine's eye picture is a loft as an open space I saw interior walls going in It doesn't appear to be a loft so maybe we need to clarify the terminology when we talk about a loft so that we're all on the same page Um, was that loft description Based on the previous uh, the story in a half version or was that uh after she told you they were changed according That was after the change that was when I spoke to terry about getting the pins back because The there was another large walnut tree that had been taken out and I Ran out to the backyard and I screamed stop Don't touch another tree. You took our pins out Don't touch anything else. I'm calling the police And so I did and the young lady who came said there's nothing I can do You have to talk to the village offices. I can ask him to stop but there is nothing else that I can do um I I'm sure regina is going to hear a lot more of this but enforcement has been A subject of debate like how much do we have what's legal? Who's doing it? Is it the village staff? Is it? The police, you know, it's it's been Fortunately not very often, but when it comes up, it seems to still not be clear um, it's We've been told I guess as the planning commission now probably has the drb that we have no we we can't even feel the complaint We have to tell people just what the police officer said, which is you have to talk to the village office So, um, you know, and I've had plenty of people Find me about something or other and say, you know, I have a problem and and You know, what can you do about it? And I and I have to say it You can only you have to talk to To the village staff and so that's only two people, you know that are in the planning and zoning Um area and so this has been a a fairly Consistent issue for us over the years and it doesn't happen all the time but when it happens that we feel like You know, we're not really seeing things resolve and and that's kind of frustrating, you know, and it's it's clearly Uh difficult for everybody. So, um, I'm just saying um, since you're Just getting a taste of a lot of this stuff at this level, um, it's probably something to write down on your list for, uh, you know, how do we go forward and resolve that because Uh, it will need to be addressed Yep, I have heard the enforcement issue quite a bit um, uh I can say From your list the dumpster is definitely one of those things that is on the plan and it's not up for debate to Amend the plan and take that off. It will be put in before the again CO's certificates of occupancy are issued for this like, okay And things like the smoke alarm. I mean that I I don't know what I would do those I have a pet peeve on those One of mine went off this weekend, but uh If it's not your house, I mean and there's nobody even there and it's obnoxious Anyway, um I mean, I think we can We can ask Gabe to make to try to I just want to make sure that, you know, if if there's a complaint and they somebody calls and and you know the owner slash applicant slash developer slash whoever's in charge should need to be able to go uh, make repairs or fix the situation Yeah, and you know Yeah, um I'm torn to what to talk about here because this isn't a planning commission meeting where we're having a debate about enforcement And what would be addressed this is a very specific case exactly in front of the development review board. So I'm still a holdover. I'm sorry Um But you know, it's important to listen to the complaints people have you I I don't want to say I can't do anything That just seems completely lame Yes, Dave I can as I already said I can certainly ask tomorrow that it likes can be turned off for now because they gotta be part of the CEO and it sounds like either there's a shield missing or they're just the wrong Fix you're all together And we located our office did property flat. We located Your backpipes the pipes that were back there. So within the next week I can tell my surveyor tomorrow that hey, you got to get out there within the next week They've got the exact locations. So they might maybe one still there. Maybe two are still there or whatever But they'll find out and if not they're under dirt They'll replace them if they're not there, but he's got the exact locations So some the question is is it six inches under is it 12 inches under or is it just not there? First I've heard of that. Yeah, but we'll take care of that part All right I'm just going over the my notes from what was What were the proposed stipulations from the previous Meeting when we approve the project. So I'm I'm seeing some of those same items that are on Our list from tonight. So there was Bike racks and bike storage stuff. So so I'll I'm going to leave that in Your hands or Gina to make sure that before there's a co that all of the things that are supposed to be done and are taken care of and Meet the village standards, which is you know item two on this they are whatever's done has to meet The village requirements regardless of what got approved or Changed or anything else that still has to meet the village standards. So We'll get to the bottom of that will make the applicant Honor all the things that are in his approved plan that have to be done And I'm happy to keep In whatever capacity I'm allowed to do it. Keep talking about some of these other things like fencing and Lighting and screening and landscape plans But I for today I'm thinking we Unless anyone else more comments. I'm thinking we we have two things to do one is Extend the deadline Or is that all part of the same motion? Do you have this piece paper? Yeah So the recommendation about the bottom So the recommendation is that the development review board approved the minor site plan amendment for the building Changes at 41 maple street And approve an extension to the final pud subdivision approval To november 17 2022 So if we turn that into a motion Would anybody like to make that motion? I will make that motion Can I do that? Yeah, as a chair. I think I can I will second. All right um Any further discussion And I don't know that we need to add any further stipulations like note Co until everything everything is done because that Is part of the normal operations, right already in place. Yeah so um Any further discussion on the motion? All in favor of the motion Hi I was unanimous All right motion carries Um, I would like to say to the audience. Thank you very much for coming in and letting us know because if you don't come in We don't know Well, when we got the notice and it looked like an amendment we're thinking oh, no What's the next thing that's changing? We needed to know it's It's helpful. I am going to work with Staff and they're not all here. We're we're down some staff as you may know But i'm going to work with staff to make sure that communications are improved and We'd like to be more Able to respond to people who think that there's a project Issue that isn't going properly All right, thank you. All right um, we do have uh I don't think so Yeah, thanks um Other development review board items and and I do we have a whole pile of big Did you did I see some things in here or is that just all the material that you uh that I asked for was all that you asked for so Uh I'm not sure there are other I'm not sure there are either. Um I uh I I know that there was a training. I think the training may or may not have dealt more with just the nuts and bolts of things As far as I know and I'm just I just want to clarify for our own purposes um that we're still working with the ldc land development code No matter what we call ourselves, right? This this is still the we're still working on the version of this that everybody should have this right And the new one The new one is Do what's the schedule on improving the new one? So there is um Uh one change to the versions that you guys have in front of you that we'll we'll make sure to get to you is the Cannabis changes So those were approved by the city council on september 14th became effective october 6th So and it basically swaps out the definition section and the land use table Those are the the two changed pieces. So we'll get you those the city councils and file the changes whenever they want So that updates can happen. So and they somehow included design five corners as as Some type of amendment or reference document, right? Can you just confirm that because so the other the rest of the land development code amendments That the planning commission worked on yeah, but this is separate. I think that this I always get my terminology straight the Village trustees at the time all believed that this was part of our actual planning material and And so we asked them how we would know that because it's not actually in the ldc and I think they made some type of a motion or resolution or something to adopt this design five corners And and have it be part of our planning material and then there's a design five corners implementation plan Which goes with it. This is why I'm carrying around all this paper Because it it's still somewhat unclear to me how we go from the design five corners concept report to the implementation plan to the ldc and Do what they want right because we serve them at their So If you can just help clarify that for us at some point. Yeah um I don't know what Decision they made when that was done I can look into that But I do know that when you did the comprehensive plan in 2019 that was incorporated And then the draft land development code regulations does reference those concepts. All right, so So the village comprehensive plan. Yes Um So so this this is in effect This is actually a vision statement that the village puts out that hopefully the ldc Supports and gets us there. So so if if you're a developer and you're trying to do something you want To know what we want And then you want to know, you know, how we do it That's sort of the way it works. So if the five design five corners got Pushed into this. Maybe that's how that works Yeah, and then we also have it in the we've Reference some of the specific pieces in the land development code amendments, which are those are On the council's plate with Many many other things but the That's all of this stuff These are all the This is the draft of the revised. Yes. Yeah. Yes um, so The council has A year from the planning commission public hearing which was I want to say august 4th Um, don't call me on that, but I think it was around august 4th Um to take action and uh, hopefully they'll be able to take action at least on parts of it sooner than that because I do think there's Some improvements in there, um Certainly to the landscaping requirements even itself in of itself, let alone the expansion of the overlay district further out to the Arms so, um Part of that. I think it's just a capacity issue probably mostly a capacity issue for me to be able to kind of get that through Their pipeline And some of it is that it would be Helpful to get a little bit more feedback on that because if you remember one change is duplexes and triplexes in r1 and r2 zoning districts Um, and that uh, didn't have a ton of public, you know feedback on that and that's Another density thing that's going to increase density and allow more Development closer to well, uh, you know, they're not necessarily closer But increase the density on certain lots that already exist and you can see what happens when Neighbors who bought a house a number of years ago have something show up in their backyard they get Angiated if and then you know, we want to make sure that we are supporting these Initiatives to increase the density, which is supposed to be a good thing But it can also be a painful thing as people who are comfortable with what used to be an empty lot or a backyard That's not theirs Um have something that it's just nature um, so That'll be good to know and schedule as they have the year and from Sometime in the summer to to make that and does it have to go to regional? Uh, other communities or no no no, um other municipalities are notified, but uh, there's no approval authority from anybody else that Uh chitin and county regional planning commission approves of plans not the zoning um So yeah, so uh, your next meeting is scheduled for december 14th um, and I can work on refining this script for you john, especially script number two um Yeah, just uh, and you have the landscaping plan. Do you need this version of the We have it in the we have it in the office. Does anybody else want it or can I keep it? Go ahead. It's all yours Yeah, it's getting heavy. Are you sure? It's a big historical record Well, you know, I try to keep some of this stuff around just because some of it's interesting and some of it may come back again Like I did tonight. So, um, yeah, it would be uh, you know, I I have a guide here on on the Running the meeting and and I have some things that I'm supposed to actually read Uh, and I'll just need to use my own highlighter and boil it down till I get what I want but it's a little, um Obnoxious that I have to read the rules for a hybrid meeting at theoretically every hybrid meeting And it's almost like I want to scroll them at the bottom of the screen. You know, I'll have a drink of water or something Yeah, let everybody else right deal with them. You log in. It's there. Yeah You know, like the thing that says this is being recorded, you know, you can Yep, maybe we can get one of our khakis to do the, you know, like the opening credits from Star Wars, you know, are they just scrolls? I think we can probably streamline both these Significantly, um And does everybody signed the ethics policy? Is that something? I think I Probably met That's Colleen, I think I have a thing where I can tell this relatively quickly And I'll say it's um a pleasure to have a Have you all on the board? With me and Look forward to more meetings More, you know, some of them are more fun Can I ask a question just about the lighting? Is that okay? This lighting? No, the light. Well, this lighting or just lighting in general that came up in the meeting um Because I'm and I was I know we're supposed to refer to the codes for going to say anything. Um, I know The lighting thing would be impactful to me as well and I I thought that there was a code for at least for schools that lighting of you know I'm thinking association since in the since that is an association that maybe um It would follow the same as a school because I I live across from a school and there was a lighting issue And the lights go off at a certain time And so they did change like the whole lighting, you know the light the The actual lights that they put in they have to face down so they're not like But there was there was an issue and I think that there was a I was like trying to figure out what code it was But I'm pretty sure there was like a code. I mean to do with schools or like businesses Lights like that go off. There's several Okay, so I didn't know if that would apply to like an association Think to yourself if you're bugging someone else with your lights, you're probably not doing something, right? Yeah, okay, so so most municipalities have adopted either the dark sky standards or Okay, there's there's a number of model lighting codes that apply for What's acceptable foot candles where you can see it from how much the light can bleed out on because it's kind of like It's like water and sound and light. Yeah, if you could magically make all of them stop at your property line So that your neighbors weren't affected that would be ideal when they say that in the water piece, right? so like if you're doing a Whatever your development does it can't modify water so that it goes off your property anymore than it does now, right? so but sound and light are tougher to regulate but You know, the general theory is the same. You don't want to bother people with your lights or noise. So Noise is either measured by volume or by Time of day, right? So you can be so loud up until such and such a time and then right? So lights are kind of like that too. You can have so many foot candles until such and such a time and then they usually Set like 10 o'clock lights out or they step down from Like a illumination of enough to keep people safe walking to their car to Just barely enough to see anything but not enough to really bother people. So Um It's hard, you know, they We can say whatever we want We can get a foot kindle map and we can see what they've Proposed and then when they actually show up, you know, and this Or you get somebody that mounts one of these motion-sensored floodlights on their garage and you know every time the cat walks by, you know You know, well, those aren't actually legal, but um, they happen And so, you know, it's good when the neighbors come in and say, hey, well, they're going to come in They're not necessarily going to talk to us. They might go to city council. They may come to You know, planning and zoning, but somebody's gonna complain if it's really obnoxious But I guess I guess my question was I think there is a code that there is a code. Yeah, I don't I don't know that answer um, they're They're so there's a two totally different worlds of things you have your land development code, which is called a code But mostly it's your zoning regulations Then there's another whole other world of municipal ordinances. Okay, or that's what I think. Yeah, and and those have um, some of the things like a noise time period and Um, I forget what that is, but we do have that and something like 7 a.m. To some other time at night There's not supposed to be excessive noise beyond those time periods um, I am unaware of a code that requires that night time lighting goes off at a certain point Um, that doesn't mean it's not there, but I'm I'm unaware of that for school for like a school or yeah A business not for like that's usually it's it's um, it's pretty common And often is negotiated during uh, projects approval. Yeah You know like you're not going to put those Parking lights on all night long. Yeah, I think I mean because I this was like several years ago at the school There was neighbors that had an issue with the and there was I think it's an ordinance I think you're right. Yeah, it's not a code. It's an ordinance that It was we were in the right. Yeah, there was an ordinance that said so now they're they go off at a certain time. Yeah. Yeah Yeah, and it is um It's a little bit different which is going to regulate what and because some of the some of the stuff that lands more in the Ordinance side of things is much more of that public nuisance. Um, noise is too loud, you know The lighting is extreme, you know, those kinds of things whereas the land development code is addresses things in a different kind of way Um, okay, so yeah All light fixtures shall be hooded or shielded and directed downward at a 60 degrees to horizontal unless otherwise approved of concealed light sources Light sources shall not be visible at property lines Well, they got a little work to do on those lights. Those are bright. Yeah Um Lighting devices may not produce direct or reflected glare on adjoining properties or streets All private residential exterior light sources shall be dark sky compliant now most people that throw those motion sensor lights up on their houses have no idea And you know, they could be if they're angled down properly dark sky compliant, but Most people wouldn't have any idea that a there's a rule and b they have to comply with it And so it takes somebody driving by to go. Hey, you know, that's Anyway, so we're reading 704 lighting on page 118 of the lvc to find all that stuff and then roadways and other streets and so forth have a completely separate Uh set of standards to follow but there are lots of lighting standards available out there and Yeah Any other questions tonight? Do we have an agenda for our next meeting already? Are there applications coming before us? Yeah, there are two applications. I believe I can never remember the address of the one of them and I don't actually know what it's about And then you also have an appeal for a denied denial of a home occupation for tier one cannabis cultivation And this is the just I may have heard This gentleman come before us and tell us he was going to ask for permission And he's got an existing growing operation and he wants to make it think Is that think you're probably thinking of a different person a different person? Okay Um, all right, so uh, you'll um, maybe need to walk us through the appeal Procedures and or just send us what we're supposed to look at because that was probably a zba Uh activity before so some of us are new to that. Yeah and Um, I was on the zoning board Yeah I didn't hear that Yeah, maybe it was during covid I missed it Um, yeah, this is this is a brand new up the brand new thing. Um, the Uh Yeah, we will figure out how that is staffed. I was acting zoning administrator at the time So I'm the person who denied the home occupation. I can't Um defend my decision in front of you Um, so there we'll we'll figure that out some way shape or form at some point We get a package that says here was the Here was the application here was the denial here Denial these are the applicable rules codes ordinances, whatever. Yes, exactly All right I'm looking forward. I mean I've been through DRB things from the applicant side a number of times But now that we're this is our first real DRB quasi judicial Reap meeting this one. Yeah, and and so any application that we get is all new to this board Um, so that's that'll be interesting and and it's I guess there's there's a procedure like some applications for development will come through requiring variances or Other things in order to be approved and we'll have to do all of those because now one body can do all of them. So Uh, which is It's supposed to be a good thing because streamlines. They don't have to go to the zba and then come back and go to planning commission. So that's why DRBs are uh generally created and Even though we're just doing it We it's 70 to 80 percent of the state does it that way, right? DRBs. I don't know that off the top of my head But that sounds about right. I heard that statistic from somebody Most of the state is already DRB Yeah All right, great a motion to adjourn, please What should you adjourn? Any Discussion well in favor. Bye. All right Weird adjourn