 I, I think you are a Renaud hacker. You are a iconic figure, your programmer, entrepreneur and everything. And you even are taken up by rappers in Japan. So I think that is very rare for people in political words to become text for rappers. I am from the World Federation of Public Health Associations and I'm into public health. You know that we in public health always struggle with protecting the individual's freedom and protecting the population health. Professor, sorry. Yes. I'm so sorry. Sorry, because there was a test. Minister, hello. I'm so sorry for interrupting you. I will leave the session and please, please start again. I'm so sorry because I was there to test. Okay. Okay. So we shouldn't do anything, right? No, it's okay. Okay. I'll just be standing by or sitting by. Yes. Please stay. I'm just, I just thank you very much. Have a great day. So here again. Hello, Audrey. If I may say so, you are a iconic person. You are an entrepreneur. You're a hacker and activist politician. And as I have learned, you even became the text for a Japanese songwriter or let's say rapper. A very few people have this portfolio. If I may say so on myself, I'm Bettina Boris CEO from the World Federation of Public Health Associations. And I am deeply into public health and to global health. And you know that in public health, we have this balance, this fine balance to protect individuals freedoms, personal freedom and population health on the other side. So I come with a question. You have been praised in Taiwan and you personally for being instrumental in getting through the pandemic crisis. How do you manage this basic public health balance while managing a crisis? Thank you. This is a great question. In Taiwan, we managed to counter the COVID-19 with no lockdown and associated infodemic with no takedown. And indeed in both public health and also in, I guess, public mental health, it is essential that people are guarded against either viral biological virus or viral conspiracy theories as it were. And what we have found that works reliably is what we call humor over rumor. Indeed, wrapping is a really good way to deliver a lot of information in their entertaining form in a short time span. We also work with professional communicators who, for example, work out this very cute Shiba Inu. It's a spoke stock for the central epidemic command center because when the minister tells someone to wear a mask to protect against their own unwashed hands, it's difficult for other people to share this message. But if it's a very cute dog putting their food to their mouth and saying during the pandemic, it's very important to not do what a dog does here because the dog is so cute. People share that in what we call a viral meme. That is to say people understand social distancing like when we're indoor keep three Shiba Inu's away or wear a mask, outdoor keep two Shiba Inu's away from one another or wear a mask again in a very entertaining and engaging form. And when people understand the public health, they become a little bit of an amateur epidemiologist. They can share the correct information in the form that's most amenable for understanding to their friends and families and that beats any top-down program. Thank you very much. That is already mentioning a next word which I would like to pick up. It's infodemic. We are all dealing, I think, around the world with the pandemic and it's infodemic. And the use of messaging and the communication that you nicely described is crucial to getting through a pandemic, I think. There are now also politicians using social media to spread, I would call it wrong messages and at least in the sense of public health, wrong messages. What do you think about this and how would you handle this if you were not in Taiwan? If I'm not in Taiwan, I will start deploying the Taiwan initiative as we introduced to many nearby jurisdictions by building an alliance of fact-checkers. For if you have sufficient amount of time and effort put in into fact-checking by the social sector, not the public sector, by professional journalists, by people who study media competence classes in their primary schools or middle schools or high schools, these are the people that you want to fact-check the presidential candidates as they were deliberating and debating for the January 2020, for example, in Taiwan, our presidential election are fact-checked by thousands of amateurs. But when they participate in the newsroom, when they become the providers of the facts that can fact-check even the three presidential candidates, they undergo this transformation from media literacy, which is about being viewers and consumers, to media competence, which is about producers of media, and they become inoculated against the polarizing messages or the oversimplification that some politicians likes to say on social media. So I think the main way to defend against polarized wrong information by politicians is by engaging in media newsroom work, media competence work starting from basic education. Oh, I see. You want us all to become fact-checkers and message producers. That's right. In our spare time, of course, not full-time. Thank you. I'll pick that up again and hope to get it further. My then next question would be, I told about there are countries outside Taiwan, and in the pandemic I am at Geneva. We are close to UN organizations. We see that multilateralism is under challenge, quite challenged these days, especially as we are now discussing access to vaccines. How do you think that your strategies could help global governance? I think, first of all, we are part of the COVAX arrangement, even though Taiwan is not officially part of the World Health Organization. We are here to help and also contribute our own research capabilities and vaccine production capabilities. We have two vaccines are now in phase two, and if they do well, it could be rolled out under EUA. And so what I'm saying is that Taiwan is all about sharing the model that worked and what didn't work. For in 2003, Taiwan was hit quite badly by SARS. Nowadays we call it SARS 1.0 by SARS. And then we did a lot of things wrong. The municipal government was saying different things from the central government. People were panicking by N95 masks, leaving the frontline health workers having a shortage of masks. There's a lot of uncertainty and doubt when we barricaded the hoping hospital unannounced and so on. But after that, we wrote a playbook, the SARS playbook, the constitutional court of Taiwan charged the legislator saying when SARS 2.0 came, and it will come. We don't know whether a decade or two in the future, but it will come. When SARS comes again, we need to have the public institutions institutionalized when the memory was still fresh in 2004. So we wrote out new legislations. We wrote out the central epidemic command center. We wrote out the IC card for universal health care and so on. And all of which we are happy to share the playbook with the world this time around because we essentially play the SARS 1.0 playbook very early on, like January 1st of 2020. That's at least 10 days before the WHO itself. So we would like to participate in not only the early warning systems so that we can warn other ministerial positions around the world for possible human to human transmission, but also work with the other jurisdictions as maybe more of their citizens are vaccinated and we can take a little bit of breath until, I guess, SARS 3.0 comes. We don't know whether next year or 10 years from now and help them to institutionalize the kind of change that we did in 2004 when it comes to contact tracing, the communication as well as many other parts of legislature. Okay. So in the global setting, we love the hashtag Taiwan Can Help. And you said another word, very importantly, preparedness. It was among the lines. You talked about the first SARS crisis. And I know from interviews that you said, it takes one pandemic to be well prepared. And I think the experience of the first SARS was very important. And you also talked about institutions. What do you think that countries should do first? What should they strengthen in their preparedness for a coming next pandemic? What would you rank as most important? Is it institutions? Is it communication? What is your most important part in preparedness? I think the most important part is the preparation of the administration's capabilities. That is to say, in Taiwan, this time around, we did not need to declare a state of emergency. And so everything that the administration does is pre-approved by the legislature overseen by the legislature. I say this is the most important thing because if someone in the administration is working in a state of emergency almost by default, they will make some arbitrary choices with a very good justification or due process because it's essentially acting in a quite in the moment ad hoc manner, which actually makes communication more difficult because for the everyday person on the street to explain a ad hoc decision, it's very difficult. It's almost impossible because maybe the person making this policy is also just trying something out. But if you do have the preparedness of the Taiwan equivalent of the communication disease act, then the communicable cases responses are all of them very easy to explain individually. Contact tracing, physical distancing, the use of masks to protect one's own face from one's own watchtance, and so on. They are all very reasonable individually speaking. So we can take a lot more time to prepare the message that will then get viral on social media and prepare people for the next epidemic. And so if the virus mutates, and it will mutate, it is already mutating, we can say now we have a longer symptomatic transmission. Now maybe airborne is more worth looking into and so on. And then we can just build on existing messages and inform the public that now we need to change this measure, but this is because we learned something more about the virus. But if we don't have an existing base on top to do this then all of this will feel very arbitrary. This is a point about a legal framework, an existing legal framework. So this definitely leads us to questions of democracy where you're also a strong defender of digital democracies. So in the preparedness you need strong institutions and you need as I understand you, legal frameworks. How are our societies prepared to do that in a democratic way? First of all, we need to make sure that legislators like in Taiwan, there are four major parties in the parliament, all of them need to come to terms and will understand the underlying both science and also technologies that's associated with the science. And so it is a form of public education that start with the legislators and their associates but then spread to the entire society using whichever language, culture, or metaphor that is most fit for that part of the society to understand and to internalize. And also equally important is on the algorithm side because during the contact tracing, for example, we had to collect data in the places of entry in the places of public gathering even in the nightlife district of host and hostess and all of those data collection have their different parameters when it comes to cybersecurity as well as privacy implications. Now in Taiwan, we use a heuristic we only use the data collection methods that are already there before the pandemic so that everyone has a intuition, a good intuition about the privacy and cybersecurity parameters associated and so if we prepare sufficient amount of that sort of information and habits really like using IC card to get refillable prescriptions on pharmacies when the pandemic actually comes we can repurpose the system and say just take your IC card like you would for the chronic prescriptions and then you get 10 masks per two weeks in your nearby friendly pharmacy. That is crucial and that's a way to do it until the strong democratic society participates, knows has frameworks. We see quite a lot of democracies being under pressure these days too. Do you think that these democracies, I mean you are a younger one, they're older ones do they need a new social contract? I think while the societal memory of COVID-19 was still fresh, it's indeed very good time to have a public deliberation for example what's the acceptable parameter for data collection for quarantine purposes. In Taiwan the digital fence is applied to the 14 plus seven quarantine periods it's quite invasive in the privacy framework because the telecoms know exactly where your phones are during the 14 day quarantine. However the telecoms already have that data anyway and it's not like they're sending to other non telecoms to process data and people are already used to receiving those location-based alerts for earthquake warnings, flood warnings, evacuation warnings and so on. So we explain the digital fence in terms of those existing infrastructures but for other maybe non-island countries that do not have earthquake and typhoons all the time maybe you do not have as much experience with location-based systems but that will be a really good time right after the pandemic this time to have a societal conversation about how to enforce the quarantine and contact tracing too. That's the next point everybody says islands are different and you said yes we have to enter a social discussion perhaps to use the open window opportunity of the pandemic to look at how we want to live together. So social innovation is also one of your tools I would say. For us yourself part of a movement of occupying movement do you think that social innovation goes by steps, by revolutions by occupations or how can you move forward societal thinking? Social innovation to me requires the thinking that everyone's business requires everyone's help and of course as you put it the help is sometimes like a trickle sometimes it's a storm depending on most often they're not on how urgent is the disaster how urgent is the pressure. So for example to visualize the mask rationing status the civic technologists in Taiwan develop hundreds of visualizations in chatbots, in maps, in voice assistants and so on. So the three-quarter of Taiwanese population last February can have a visibility into which pharmacy near them still have some masks available and it's done in a very very short time and combining thousands of people our work into it. So that's for the crisis work and the same goes for the occupied movement too. But even on a not so urgent situations even on a day-to-day situation there is still a lot to be done by the social innovators. For example in Taiwan a lot of social innovators see democracy itself as a technology or a set of technologies. They're not only content with for example uploading every person three bits of information every four years which is called voting by the way but they want to communicate more into agenda settings. So they work on for example e-petition, participatory budgeting, sandbox applications, the presidential hackathon the list goes on so that everyone can participate in collective decision-making and agenda setting not just once every two years and that's something that we can all do day-to-day to foster social innovation on collective decision-making. So for you social innovation needs technology and technology is social innovation. That's exactly right and democracy is just another type of applied social technology. Yes I'm in a country with a direct democracy Switzerland very old but we are downloading the three bits of information still but very frequently very frequently. That's right the referendum system I think works like a clockwork so it's definitely not just once every four years it's on all levels. Yes but how could we get it in a better shape than in Switzerland the clockwork? I think the Switzerland really has a model system for what I call a transcultural republic of citizens in the sense that across the major cultures in Switzerland people agree to the democratic process and agree to improve on the democratic process so that's very commendable. One thing I would like to highlight is that in Taiwan now that we have broadband as a human right that is to say anywhere in Taiwan even almost 4,000 meters high on the tip of Taiwan anyone has 10 megabits per second at just 16 euros per month for a limited data connection if they don't it's my fault personally and so once we have that sort of coverage we can actually bring the sort of deliberation that we have in our town halls and city halls to the virtual reality to the virtual deliberation experiences so that the conversation around say the participatory budget or the sandbox application so what involves not only people in the same community they're still very important but people from overseas who care about the community or who have lived in this community or who want to contribute to the community can also participate as digital doubles or digital twins to such discussions but of course on the face-to-face discussion side we don't ask people to come to technology we still bring the technology to the people but people are joined by people from the great beyond okay so you want a political space that is almost everywhere on higher top of mountains and on the seashore so well I know on my to-do list I have to climb your highest mountain still once I can travel again as a mountain fan I always ask every Taiwanese friends about your highest mountain and they say yes it's feasible so I know I will have a strong internet connection up there and we could start the same discussion from my hiking spot that's right I had a conversation art actually a conversation with curator from the new museum in New York and we had that discussion he in New York and me in here wearing virtual reality has said and our co-creation took place on the height of the Matterhorn mountain so that is a Swiss mountain and it was captured through the helicopter 360 imaging and I think it really brings us together in a way that's not achievable by two-dimension video conferencing that's true we'll check that out for the next time so now we are already with this virtuality and the techniques we are using we are definitely the global space and in the global space where we do live we have one I think important problem besides probably climate we do have raising inequities a gap that is growing between those who have and those who have not and we know that this influences all and every bit of our society in health so I would have I would love to have your views on how we can do something about or against growing inequity in countries that are high income in countries that are low income but also in between countries yeah in Taiwan our genie index numbers are pretty good and one of the reasons why is that not only universal healthcare is spelled out in our constitutional amendments but also the right to learn especially on basic education and the right to health in all forms including preventative and public health but also the right to communicate and so these three form the kind of socialist core of our constitution and if any of this in Taiwan doesn't have the access to learn to health or to communicate it's the state's fault but of course on other parts of the economy like semiconductors that's pure market economy and so having this two cores working in conjunction with one another that's to say these profit seeking businesses they do it for profit but with social purpose and the other sectors do it for the purpose but sometimes also with profits and this makes it much more easy for the two sectors to work with one another on aspects like social entrepreneurship for example this jacket that I wear is made out of like 12 recycled plastic bottles and like five cups of coffee being waste and so on and just by demonstrating this trend of how makers as well as fashion designers to work on circular design that is good for the planet but also good for their prosperity and so instead of saying that these two are like the left and the right wing and they balance each other I think it's best if we make them work together on the sustainable goals and then grow up wing that is to say to simultaneously fulfill prosperity on okay this comes to a anti-polarization view on social market and private markets on systems that informer days have been opposed by a lot of people so you think that okay education communication health are the socialistic course for equity and they can go well together with market economy and they can do well also by working on social innovation and entrepreneurship and do you need strong frameworks and regulations to make them work well together I think we need a strong social sector in Taiwan it used to be that if a company abuses the planet or the people then there will be social sanctions against them and many large enterprises were gone because of the social sanction boycotting now for the Taiwanese young people like in their 10s and 20s just doing nothing is a cause for social sanction against them they must actively give an account of how much they are working on decarbonization on preserving the planet and things like that so standing by longer an option and when you have a strong social sector like that the market players will play in a way that is more pro-social and pro-planet oh so if I get you right in Taiwan you get people into the social sector by well by forthing them by asking them by having fun right so in Taiwan for example there's a very strong homemakers union that advocates on environmental policies but the main work of advocacy is just buying together and so it's actually a consumer co-op that encourages people to for example take the plastic bottles and cases back when you're taking another monthly like grab of the collective consumer markets and you go back to the market by the consumer co-op you bring with you the empty bottles that you have already peeled down the labels and they recycle it right there so that it can be remade into say casings for the laundry and like the chemicals used for the laundry and so on the washing liquids and so all this imbues in very young people like it's in their everyday life it's not something that they specifically go out and do but rather just by come back to the consumer co-op and buy some new washing liquids and so on the idea of recycling and upcycling is automatically embedded in their work and I think that is much better than just once a year like a tour or a journey or something or yes make it a habit make it your real life and that is now we move from managing a pandemic to managing a whole society and I know that you also are kind of fond of the SDGs because you sometimes mention your job description as being written in the SDGs and then the people listening ask what you think when you say that definitely so whereas the 17 SDGs some of them are for economic prosperity some of them are for the planetary sustainability some of them are for equitable society I focus specifically on the 16th and the 17th the 16th is about inclusive and responsible governance system and the 17th is about partnership for those common goals so I often write my job description in terms of the 17 goals for example on enhancing reliable data on promoting open innovation and most importantly on fostering effective partnership across sectors but many people also say hey minister we don't have 169 goals targets memorized so I sometimes also translate that to poetry oh I haven't seen the poems on SDGs 17 that's oh you have to send it yeah it's pinned on my twitter it's literally my job description that talks about for example when we see the internet of things yes I I think this one is very beautiful yes this one is very very beautiful and as I don't want to take all your time today I would like to ask you to say this this kind of job description that you have the internet of things turn it into if you could explain it to us or just say it I like it very much okay certainly so my job description goes like this when we see the internet of things let's make it an internet of beings when we see virtual reality let's make it a shared reality when we see machine learning let's make it collaborative learning when we see user experience let's make it about human experience and whenever we hear that a singularity is near let us always remember the plurality is here so beautiful I hope that a lot of people listen I hope that also places with civil unrest with difficult situations can listen to these words and I think that you have to to get your message through to other places in the world if I may thank you very much Audrey for the time you spent with me with our viewers and all the best to Taipei hope to see everyone in person very soon yeah same here have a good local time everyone and live long and prosper thank you Audrey thank you bye bye so I guess we're good I think we're fine I went through all the things you know I think it's as you are a holistic person the fact that everybody asks Taiwan now how did you manage but managing the crisis means managing society and for you you get it always into one managing society is not managing it's the wrong word it's like tending a garden because already managing makes this top down thing and this is not fine I like the humanistic approach that you say we are in it in a society which is using all our competencies all differences we always say plurality and now what I have been talking not talking with you with a lot of people always say they ask about your attitudes to genders I have a very strong focus on gender because I think that the minority the symbolic minority that is women is still under scrutiny and under in a lot of countries so I think that what feminist movements and other movements for so called minorities did is helping, it's pacing the way for this society approach we are all one with different whatever differences but we are all in one I didn't ask you about that but I know it's probably helps also to be more open, more friendly more inclusive to others and you really transmit this a feeling of being extremely inclusive yourself I think your team must have it every day and say I'm part of the team that's right my team whenever we recruit someone we always look for someone with a very distinct perspective not overlap with an existing team member and they must be also as willing to give as they are here to take and when you have all your teammates like this it's a natural sharing and very inclusive atmosphere and I think it's the same really by taking all the sides you can apply it to all the structural issues like inequity, climate change, disinformation and so on that you mentioned and it all requires us to essentially look at it from the plural perspective because it could be fixed by mechanistic way it has been fixed long ago that's interesting how you create teams that you say I pick the differences I really do really try to get the differences into one and that's probably a way of getting best teams to have all the aspects in one well I think we could continue long time but as I said my last visit to Taiwan I went every year twice a year and went to the Global Health Forum and met your colleagues the health minister Dr. Chen Shui and give you my greetings my very friendly we did a declaration of Taipei together on Oral Health and I'm extremely fond of having done already a lot of things in Taipei and with the Taiwanese people so it was for me a double pleasure to speak to you I had seen you on internet and everywhere but having this exchange directly is for sure different maybe next time we can go hiking together if you are someone who goes hiking I'm there the Swiss mountains are there for hiking and the Taiwanese are there for hiking next time then thank you very much and have a nice end of the day you too, bye