 Thank you for joining us this morning. I'm Tony Cappecciani. I'm the CEO and co-founder of Parsons TKO. For anyone who doesn't know us yet, we are the engagement architecture firm. And recently we have launched a new research arm of the company that we call the Data Innovation Studio. As part of that, we've been having conversations for a while now about the role of data ethics in the mission-driven sector. Realize the term itself, data ethics is quite broad. So today we're starting with one angle on it. But what we're really hoping to create by your attendance here, your interest in this event is to build a community of practice within the mission-driven sector where we can start having dialogues about data ethics more broadly. And we really do want to hear from you, which angles on data ethics are of most interest, most concern or impact in your day-to-day work. Because as we build the series of these conversations, we want to make sure we're addressing those issues within the community that you're feeling. And as such too, after this event, we're gonna send you information about a LinkedIn network that we're gonna build to keep this dialogue going and try to get more people into the conversation with us about data ethics moving forward. I think it really will be the community of practice that we create in the mission-driven sector. And by we, I mean all of us, not parts of CTO, everyone involved in this discussion, how we can really think about what we're doing with the data, how we're using it to really move the mission forward and in an ethical manner, which really matters to all of us that are working for a mission. So I am absolutely delighted and humbled to introduce my colleague, Chelsea Louie, who will be our moderator and main discussant for today's conversation, Chelsea. As I noted, she's one of the folks here in the company that's driving the new Research, Armed Data Innovation Studio for us. Thank you for that, Chelsea. And thank you for bringing this topic to us and creating this event series with us. Chelsea is a recent graduate of California Polytechnic State University of San Luis Obispo. And she is also the co-founder of the student-founded Activism Always, which is how we met Chelsea. So without further ado, Chelsea, thank you so much. And to all the panelists, this is gonna be a great conversation. Thank you so much for your time today. It really means a lot to us that you take the time to come and have this conversation with us. And one more thing for our turn, Chelsea. Everyone, please feel free, use the chat, talk in that chat channel. If you've got ideas, put them in that chat channel. If you wanna talk to each other privately, go ahead and use the chat channel. Whatever you're putting in there, think that's the first way we can start to get a sense of what's on your mind when it comes to data ethics as well. So again, thank you, everyone, and Chelsea. Awesome. Thank you so much, Tony, for that introduction. Hi, I'm Chelsea. I'll be the main moderator for today's event. And I'm very, very excited to be introducing this topic with Parsons, TKO. And also to introduce our amazing group panelists today. So I'll start by just giving a brief intro about the amazing people that we have to discuss about this topic of data ethics and storytelling with us. We have Arabella DeLuca, who's the founder and CEO of WeXL at wexl.org. Arabella is a creative with extensive experience from journalism to marketing. And right now with WeXL, they're really trying to bring diverse voices to media and communications and storytelling work. So I think she's going to have a wonderful perspective to share with us there. We also have Robert Kruger, who's the executive communications manager at Gensler. He's also the incoming president for the Public Relations Society of America's National Capital Chapter. And he does a lot of work in the communications field with the communications board and is also the founder of Combs Fest. And our third speaker today is going to be Jamie, who has really been building and scaling programs in the social impact sector and has been working to bring innovative technologies and think about innovative ways to use data to help mission-driven organizations from organizations to share our strength to Greenpeace and really thinking about these topics in depth. So this is our amazing panel that I'm very, very excited to have speak with you all today. A few things to kind of frame what we're doing, Tony's already kind of touched on it, that person in CKO, we really see that thinking about data and ethics and these sort of underlying sort of values and morals and themes is really important to technology work. It's something that is sometimes overlooked or sometimes that is seen as part of like a package. But we think that this is something that we really should discuss on the forefront. So today we're really looking at the subjective and different perspectives of our panelists. We're not trying to facilitate any discussion that is supposedly a debate, but we're really trying to bring out those perspectives and to share that with you all today. So without further ado, I'm going to get the conversation started. I'm going to stop screen sharing so we can see our panelists' lovely faces and we'll get right there. Panelists, feel free to unmute and yeah, feel free to begin chatting. So the first question I wanna bring to you all today is sort of what drew you to be interested in the subject of data and of storytelling either or and also together in the form of data storytelling and sort of what is data ethics to you? What is data storytelling to you? Yeah, I mean, I think I can kind of start. So I come from the field of communications and public relations. And so 15 years ago, data really wasn't that big in PR. It was still a lot of, you know, get your story placed, you know, and those top tier publications. And I think like over with the introduction technology and our access to it as PR and communications and professionals to that technology, we've had to, you know, really kind of all these sets of ethics around that, around data. I teach, and I've taught at the university level, West Virginia and University of Florida courses on measurement and data. And so there's always a unit on ethics. And I think that those conversations revolve around, they don't necessarily revolve around kind of like around what you probably think, like the use of data, like how we use other people's data that we capture. That's what tends to get the most like attention, I think, but in what PR professionals and communicators deal with day in and day out is how we use that data for data-driven storytelling. Like how if we're manipulating it as part of our stories or infographics or data visualizations, are we cherry picking it unethically? But also how we use it with our clients and our executives. And I think that, you know, we were always, I think when we present a campaign and like we post campaign, you know, of course we're always like, yeah, this was, this campaign, look at the data, you know? But of course we pick that data. And I don't think we necessarily manipulate it or not, but we definitely, we choose what we present and we choose what we do not present. I think a good example, it's just for those that want to hear it in PR, like share of voice is like this metric. And for those you don't know what it is, it's like so in PR is like, you know, okay, we're gonna benchmark against our three competitors and who gets the most mentions in the media has the biggest market share around, you know, in our industry. And so there are ways that kind of, I mean, like if you have like Cision or whatever, you can track that, your media mentions. And so I used to work for an organization and we would choose which will we present based on who the audience was. And like, and for example, if you issued like a newswire press release, your automatic, that press release is automatically picked up by hundreds of news websites. That's really not like earned media. That's really, they're picking you up and all that, but like, and there was a way to filter those out, you know, filter out newswire mentions. But depending on who you're talking to, you might be like, well, look, you know, we got, you know, our market share is bigger. We're an actuality, you know, if you're talking to someone else, you know, you might present a different market share pie chart. And so those are some of the things that, you know, in my role, we deal in day in and day out. And I think the majority of us are honest and all that, but like, when you see that information, it's tempting, right? And so, cause we're all human. Yeah, I think, you know, on the journalism side of things, because I was a newspaper reporter, it's Chelsea had mentioned, my first job out of college, I was actually a newspaper reporter writing college during my senior year. And it was really interesting because back then, I'm dating myself, 2003, there was still a print newspaper and there were editors in the newsroom that helped you develop your story and helped you choose what stories we should be telling from the community. And they really helped you as a me personally as a new reporter, as a green reporter to understand what stories we should be telling. And it helped me be more objective. But then as my career progressed, I ended up in marketing for tech and in marketing and tech, it's all about, you know, what is actually making an impact to the audience or the user base that you want to target? How are they signing up to your platform and using your product? And it's so different. And about, what was it? Like maybe 10 years ago, BuzzFeed started writing more sensationalized, click bait headlines. And it would get clicks. So, you know, and then as content creation gets more and more democratized and newsrooms get to shrink more and more or get acquired by larger publications and you have like more homogene or you have like this inability to tell a story objectively because you're a one-man band. So I was personally drawn to this conversation because I've been a storyteller across the board and I've used data across the board for understanding what is going to get more engagement. But at the end of the day, I realized that we as human beings are always in control of what we put out regardless of what gets clicked more. So I like what you said, Robert, with, you know, most people are ethical. Most people are trying to do the ethical thing, but sometimes it gets a little bit scary and like, oh, I'm kind of drawn. I'm kind of drawn to do it this way because you want the impressions, you want the engagement. And especially if you're working for a client and in a service industry, you need those results. I'll just add from where I sit today and also in my previous roles when working in the nonprofit industry itself. I agree with Arabella and Robert when it comes to, most people are ethical when they're using their data. I think where it becomes tricky is when you are cherry picking what data you use and nonprofits have to walk this type road of proving their impact and worth. And at the same time, continuing to have a drumbeat of how big the problem is. And sometimes it almost feels like you have this dichotomy of how you're using your data, right? To funders, you're like, look at everything we've done. Look at all these great percentages of impact. And then at the same time, you're going back to a lot of those donors in a month or two and saying, look how big the problem is, we need more money to solve the problem. And so it's just a very interesting, how do you tell a story that continue, I think nonprofits face an issue of how do you tell a true story while continuing to prove your organization's worth but also need? And it can become a very difficult and convoluted story to tell. And I also was really drawn to this conversation to talk about why people aren't telling stories because the data is convoluted or complicated or isn't sharing or telling a story that fits into the narrative that they're needing or perceived that they need to share. And how do you come to terms with that and find a way around that in a way where you can still maintain your ethics? I like how you, Jamie, you were saying, on the other, both you and Robert talked about like the use of data in the actual storytelling and like talk about the use of data behind the scenes of like, what story should you tell? For me, having been trained as a journalist, I feel like I can't help it. I just have to give its numbers straight through. And that's just it is. It's just, these are the numbers. I mean, there's not a lot of people giving to, we excel right now because even, so in terms of like, our impact numbers are small because we're a small nonprofit. So the way we sort of prevent that and because we're small and we just show the stories. It's like straight from our communities experience with us and how we change their lives. And then we just, we go from there because we can't manipulate the numbers because as we are growing, we need, it's like the chicken or the egg. I mean, I listened to you and you're like, oh, nonprofits fund-ridden with, oh my goodness, this is so hard. But, we just realized this week that we're actually gonna take away our social enterprise component of the nonprofit because we provide storytelling through DEI lens to corporations. And what was happening is it's actually ending up cannibalizing our mission and we really need to just focus on our community. And that's using data in just like business versus storytelling. Yeah, I think that's a great point, Arabella, because people look at numbers, I'll give you an example just in the same vein of that. So when I worked at a crisis intervention suicide hotline, there was a time, 2008, great recession where we were getting an influx of calls. And so the number of calls we were answering was dropping because we were a volunteer organization and volunteers only can answer so many calls. So what that looks like can be the story that tells with just playing data can be perceived in so many ways. You're not performing, you're hanging people out to drive, you're not answering the calls for need or you need more people, we need more funding, we need more phones, we need more support. And unless you have a strong storyteller to your point behind what you just said, Arabella, if there was no storyteller that could take that data, the same data point and fit a narrative around it that really gets to the true core of the issue, you could lose everything, right? Funders could drop, competitors could come in, credibility of your organization and its impact could go down the tubes. And so, it's really also important, it's like this, again, it's this conflict, it's like, you can do not share a story and if the data gets out there some other way is the story, you lose control of that story or do you take the risk of telling that story in a way that you get to set the narrative and hope that it resonates and that people receive that right message. And I think these are things that our organizational leaders face every day and make these calculated risks on. What stories are they gonna tell? How are they going to tell them in a way that resonates with people and furthers their mission? And it's the leader's responsibility, it's the board's responsibility and it's the communications team responsibility that what Robert does is, how do you take that data and create that story that's going to really resonate with people in the right way? That's why you need Robert. Yeah, exactly. And I told Robert, he has a really hard job. Oh, well. I like what Jamie, when you brought up like second ago, that kind of like about nonprofits and funders and the use of data, think that just coming from, well, it's still very involved with nonprofits, that's always an issue like, how do you communicate your impact if this is like a new initiative, you don't have the data yet. And so, and then once you have it, how do you communicate that money that actually made an impact? That, how do you communicate to your donors that there was value in what they gave that money to? And so, and it's an ongoing issue there are some periods where like, while that money goes to overhead, it goes to like, funding staff and like, so it takes a while to build out an initiative or program unless you have enough money right up front. I think that, I think the way that we, that I've gotten around it in the past and when we reach out to potential sponsors or partners is like really we kind of, we communicate, we use data from like a large, showing like a larger trend, a trend that's bigger than us, bigger than our nonprofit, you know, and like how, and like really just kind of like who's our network, who's our, who's our spheres of influence and how, and you know, and we use that kind of like that, that data to kind of compliment that, that bigger data. And so, I know there's like two different types of data, what we always hear about big data, big data out, and you know, that's like I was saying like, that's the one that gets all the attention in the media, but there's also like small data, yet that really your company's been doing for a long time. And so the big data makes no sense for a company, like you can buy all the enterprise tools that you want, but that big data makes no sense if you don't compliment it with the smaller data and vice versa really, like that small data has more value to compliment it with the bigger data. And so I think that, you know, as, as we kind of like, as no matter what our profession is, as like the tools and the access to data becomes more sophisticated, I think that we're just gonna have to like figure out, you know, how, how that works with the data we've already been using, and now it'll impact like our storytelling and that, and obviously that's, you know, there, we have to make decisions about kind of like, about what to make, what sets of data we're communicating to what public and whatnot. Yeah, absolutely, Robert. And I wanted to add in a point there as well, because we're really talking about like the interrelationship between data and stories and about like where, where that line blurs. Like, because a lot of the data is, is really just sort of the evidence to prove our stories a lot of time and how we decide to tell the story based off of that evidence can change based on our goals, based on what we want to share from, from, from that piece. I think I saw on chat that Stefan mentioned that analytics is storytelling because you're, you're trying to, to explain what is happening. And I think a lot of times, as Robert mentioned, we're really focused on big data. We're thinking about like these huge numbers, these huge platforms in which all this data is aggregated. But we forget about like the smaller pieces of data, the data that is sort of like native to your organization, or we forget about the qualitative pieces of data that are so often forgotten, thinking about like the culture in your community, the individuals that you are, the stories that you're changing, like those pieces of stories while not seen as maybe, as impressive as a huge percentage increase, still has a lot of value in it. So thinking about like those tensions between like, where is the line between the data we're collecting and the stories we're telling is an interesting theme. Yeah, I just wanted to bring that up. Yeah, you know, Chelsea, I'm gonna take it on a little macro level here. That's not really in the nonprofit space, but I don't know if anyone's seen the reports on how Squid games is now the, it's a root to being the most popular Netflix movie. And, you know, when I, when I see this, and as a storyteller, and we do a lot of filmmaking a week. So I get a little nervous because we're gonna see a lot more of Squid games. And I mean, I've seen the trailer, I haven't seen, I haven't seen the movie. So just, I'm not gonna say anything about the movie itself, but just the trailer itself was very scary. And I was scared watching the trailer and just are the energy right now of the world after, well, still, we're still in a pandemic. It's just really, I see it all the time. We're very, it's like fears in the air. And so I get worried that like, such a powerful company like Netflix will seize that data and says, let's have more of that. And so just because like it's performing well, does it mean that you should make more of that? And that's where I really love the nonprofit world because we're driven by our mission, right? We have a mission, it stays, it helps us, the mission helps us with a compass. The mission is our compass in ethics, right? If as long as you're serving your mission, you're okay. But Netflix doesn't have a mission, right? And so I'm positive they're gonna be like, we want more of this type of content, which scares me, honestly. It scares me as well, and Erebel you're being a good point. And I will be in the spirit of being transparent around data. I have not read the articles in full that I know that one of the sound bites that came out of the Wall Street Journal article that they did that expose on Facebook was rage posts or angry posts get the most attention and they're raising them up in the algorithm. And so the stories that are being based on data, stories that are being promoted in the world of Facebook are ones that are perpetuating fear and anger and partisan type of experiences and conflict. And is that using data to tell stories ethically? Is that really what the world is like? Is that really what's going on with all of these issues and how they're bubbling them up? And so it makes a good point and in turn is that minimizing the real data and the real stories of the good work and the happiness that's out there in the world. And is it perpetuating fear and anger instead of bringing everyone into a more unified understanding of really, what are these systems that are at play and what is really happening around these important issues that we're all facing together? Yeah, and this kind of touches on something that's already been mentioned is that most people, at least here, we believe people are trying to do the right thing, that when seeing the data, when seeing the trends, people are trying to look at it in an ethical way, in a moral way that benefits society. That's the assumption we're going in with. And I think it's really difficult when they're, as you mentioned, Jamie, there are systems at play that don't see that to their favor. Whether it be sort of like whatever algorithms out there that's pumping out more clicks, more views, these sort of metrics that don't really reflect sort of the broader sense of the mission that we want the world to be a better place. So that's another tension that we think about when we think about data and storytelling and what are the goals of what we're trying to do with those metrics, with that data? And I think in the mission-driven space, we try to think that we're being driven by mission to make the world a better place, however it might be. And in other spheres, that just might not be the case, whether it's there's a bottom line that we have to increase views in some way for us to sustain ourselves, or even if there's a double bottom line where we need to sustain ourselves. And even if there are missions and values, sometimes that doesn't come into sort of the forefront. So I think a lot of times people are trying to do the right thing, but there are those things at play within a larger system. Yeah. I think also, when it comes to fundraising, the campaigns that get most funding are the ones that you feel bad. You feel like your heartstrings are not, are tugged not because someone's doing something incredible and wonderful, but it's because you feel bad. And I think that's actually one of the things that we face at WeXL is that our storytelling is positive. And it's hard to say, oh, pour this person, pour that person because it's like, no, we're about like uplifting diverse voices through storytelling. And so we talk about the struggle of minority group, just giving one example of a group that we would, minority is gender, racial, also neurodivergent, right? So we talk about them and what they go through as people, but we don't focus on like pour them because they're not. They're actually incredible, talented, creative people who have something to offer, so much to offer the world. And it's through their stories that help uplift, empower everyone else. So it is, it's hard. It's a slow, slow burn for us, but I just refuse to do it any other way. If we just have to stay small, we'll stay as small until something, something, you know, until we get bigger. That's a great point because I think like, you know, when we talk about like nonprofits, you know, or like mission-driven work or whatever, a lot of times I think we talk about nonprofits with like foundations or whatever, raising money for a good cause. And a lot of us have worked in, when we say nonprofits, that's like associations, you know, the professional associations and kind of like, all right, it's mission-driven work, they have a mission and all that, but at the same day, at the end of the day, they also represent the professionals who are members of them. And so a lot of times it's hard, like you're like, okay, what are those, as Arabella said, like, you know, there's not many stories that are like sad stories, they're gonna get like donations. And so we use data in like a different way that, you know, and we kind of, we pick what pictures we'll do, and we kind of make those decisions about, how are we gonna frame this content? Are we gonna go down that route of knowing what gets eyeballs and gets detention for us? And that brings in that necessary resources that keep the lights on every day. And so, yeah, I think what Chelsea said, like, you know, I think most of us try to do the right thing and I think there's a lot of time, and this is a good reason why always never make these decisions in a vacuum, always run them by people, have like a committee or department because there's always someone that says, like, yeah, that's not a good idea, or that's not what our brand is about, you know? And so if you have those people there who are not afraid to speak up or kind of like be those checkpoints for you, I think that's the best route to go in regard to navigating ethics and data with your nonprofits. Or if you're a private company, you have mission-driven work, same thing. Yeah, I think that was something Arabella mentioned earlier as well, like being in doing journalism and having those checks and balances, even though it was a slower process, that she felt it was more objective in that, at least you would have all those like, sort of those checkpoints to make sure your work is correct before going out and how a lot of sort of, as communications work has been democratized, those checks have been lost. And then sort of new metrics and new ways to qualify that work has come up, whether it's in sort of a reach in terms of like just how many people are seeing it or in the number of clicks. And in that sense, I feel like different types of media, different types of communications, different types of stories that we're telling, there are so many different ways to qualify it, like those metrics are abound. So I guess another question I wanted to pose you all is, as you've been doing this type of work, how have you seen like focusing on those different methods, metrics change or different methods to sort of understand your storytelling change? So yeah, that is my question. I mean, I'll take a stab at it, I'm not sure if I will totally answer you, Chelsea, but you know, what I'm just kind of thinking about is the fact that even the type of, the presentation of data has changed. So for instance, when we've been taught, as we've been talking about negative storytelling versus positive storytelling, one data point that has come up a lot in discussions with the nonprofits we work with is the imagery that they're putting forward. And is that a data point, a qualitative data point in the type of imagery? So for instance, I believe it's charity water. They will refuse to show a negative picture of a picture of village without water or that is struggling, but instead shows the joy of when that community receives the help that they need to be able to have fresh water in their community and how that starts the joy within that community and helps them to thrive, right? And so from a data perspective, it just seems to me that there's so many more ways to get and communicate a data point or tell a story through a type of data that is beyond the usual graph of the number percentage or even to your point of qualitative, the quote or the one person client story that's being shared. But into Erebel's point, it's that slow burn is if you continue to show images of individuals or continue to tell stories of people that are to invoke pity or remorse or guilt or sadness, what are you slowly doing to those individuals and those communities? And is that ethical for the short-term gain of funding? And I know that we're having this discussion between us, but I will say like the comments in the chat are just phenomenal. And one that I wanna raise up is this thing going back to funding and nonprofits traditionally not having a voice to their funders or dictating to their funders, what is ethically sound when communicating data or communicating what their organization is doing and the need for nonprofits to have more of a voice in the type of funding they're receiving, the type of data they're being told to collect. And I think Courtney made the point also being given the operational funding to be able to collect that data in an ethical manner. So I just wanted to also bring in those points which I think they were phenomenal ones. I love that, Jamie. And it reminds me, one of the things that I would suggest for any nonprofit, but especially small nonprofits is to create a brand and editorial guide right from the get-go. Oh, they're on mute. But yeah, it's exactly, and I think we actually modeled our brand guide after Charity Waters brand guide because it's just so tight, right? It's just a tight piece of a document that helps not just your team communicate what your values are for whatever storytelling they're trying to create and whatever content they're trying to create but it also helps your community communicate what your values are and whatever they're trying to share as well about you. And that's just a good place to start and even a one-person shop could start doing that. And it's a good exercise for yourself, too. I'm like, why are you doing something and why are you part of, why are you doing this and why are you part of this movement that you're trying to push out there? That's a great example. I love that. It kind of reminds me when I was like years ago when I was a student at the university, like I would, if I'd write a paper, I was like, on my monitor, I'd put like a post-it note with like the thesis right there. So I always like saw kind of what it is, you know, like it was kind of like my guidelines for that, for that it was my touch point. So everything all roads kind of led there but I love what you're talking about about these guidelines because I think that a lot of us whether we're nonprofit or private, we know, we like to use like different methods of content marketing, I think. And so we'll produce content and put it out there. And I think I brought this up, I think a few weeks ago when we had a pre-call with the, I mean, agree with the panelists here, but, you know, I've been with companies before where like, you know, the data will determine what that content is. I think Arabelle brought up, you know, I can remember Arabelle or Jamie brought up about kind of like the tone of the content, like what gets, you know, the algorithm favors certain types of like, of content. And so I think that when you have editorial guidelines in place, you know, regarding tone and content and substance and, you know, who that brand is, like it kind of like, it's kind of like those guard rails that kind of like keep you right on track, you know? So you won't go down that path and won't go out like kind of seeking those metrics that mean really to mean nothing, you know, in the end, but like, you know, they may please certain individuals, but in the end, they're hurtful for your brand. And that's a story into itself, right? And looking at opportunity in that, right? So we know that the sad stories and the sad imagery sometimes is what is on the clickbait or what attracts people, but I think that when you take the time to put your values on paper or, you know, in writing and share those with your supporters and your audience and your funders and your board, you are actually, you are spreading that ethical data collection and storytelling philosophy to others and in turn educating them on how telling it a different way would be is detrimental to the people that you're actually trying to help and serve. So it's, I know it can be also a very powerful tool that can help further your mission in many ways and, you know, help people support you even more by applauding your stance and you staying true to your mission and your values as an organization. Yeah. And on that note, I wanted to bring up something that this conversation just reminded me of was that a lot of what I studied in university was about rhetoric and about sort of persuasive elements in all the communications that we have. And I think we're kind of touching on those sort of points that I remember from those rhetoric classes in that, like in a lot of modern rhetorical studies, it's not only sort of what's in the writing that persuades people, but whether it's in the data or in the imagery, as Jamie mentioned with Charity Water, that sort of visual rhetoric of like, if you're putting these images out, what is sort of the impact of it? That's sort of across the board for all these different sort of media and communications components and sort of the frequency, the consistency, all those are different sort of variables in how we communicate. And I think you all mentioning that brand guide is a really interesting way to think about sort of that internal rhetoric as communications people, as storytellers, thinking about what I'm putting out there and really trying to have a checklist of like, I'm putting these things out there for these reasons. And then when you're going back to look at the impact of your work, when you're collecting whatever metrics it might be to seeing if it aligns, I think it's a very interesting way to go about evaluating communications, evaluating based off of those values, that checklist and thinking about that lasting impact. I'm not just sort of like, how many clicks do I get right now? But across the board, if I'm putting out 10 pictures of this exact same sort of feeling for like a month, how is that actually like a changing the story of my brand? Yes, and I have a little like secret model that I wanna share to everyone. It's not secret, it's actually, I'm taking the tried and true things from filmmaking, like screenwriting really specifically and what makes a screenplay, it's formulaic and it goes all the way to the Iliad, right? It's the hero's journey. And so at the end of it all, if you really have like, you just wanna be telling a story, think about the hero's journey. Where did your hero start? What did they have to go through to experience the change? And I'm telling you, it works all the time. I didn't even realize this. We did 2,500 hours of conversations just in 2020. And that was, Tony was part of that, maybe not 2,500 hours, I think it was minutes. Look, I'm getting my data confused already. But it was a lot of conversations, right? And we spoke to over 70 people last year. That's more than one a week, right? And so I, and from there, I realized, you know, these long conversations may not be enough to move people, but when you put it on this sort of narrative construct and it's there, it's proven, the narrative construct of the hero's journey. How did this hero, your person, your constituent that you serve, right, as a porn nonprofit, how did they change over the course of time because of your help? And also because of all the other things they've experienced. So that was like, oh, wow, this is great. So now we're just applying all of that too to the work that we're doing. I was also, when, as we were talking, I was also thinking about the fact that, and you kind of, I think getting to this airbell is looking at it, looking at how, the story you're telling across multiple stories and the pattern that exists and the audience's response and just reminds me how critical it is to continue to do those A-B tests and to test out different ways of telling your data's story. And, you know, if it is, and maybe it is in a way that isn't sitting well with your values, but does that get more attention? And then figuring out, how do you change that to be more in line? How do you change that story to be more in line with your values? But still not lose that audience engagement or audience support. And sometimes I think we forget that we, maybe we've gotten in this kind of situation where we continue to tell that story that's not sitting right in our gut or sitting right with our employees or, but we're afraid to go in the other direction. And so I just encourage people that are in that spot to maybe do some tests and take those one variable shifts to see if they can shift that narrative to be more in line with what resonates with them on an ethical level. And so you have some data to prove that it can be a more positive story or it can be a more transparent story to that audience without losing the support that you're trying to maintain. I think that's a good overall philosophy to always be testing philosophy. And I think that once you kind of develop that culture with your team, with your company, with your department, you're always armed with the right ammunition too. Because I think that a lot of times there's some of the decisions that take place above you, that are made for you, they're based off of legacy, something that we, that company or that apartment was doing five years ago, 10 years ago and no one's ever kind of challenged it. And so that's when data is kind of used for good, so to speak. I think that a lot of times we talk about us using data and chasing the big numbers, but a lot of times there's like that time, those times when we don't use data or we don't have enough data or we didn't present the right data to those people to make those decisions. So, yeah, I love that philosophy, always be testing. And it reminds me of the lean startup model, having worked for startups and tech. I mean, these founders, right? Small teams, they have an idea, they have a feature in mind. They put it out there and then they test it and then they tweak it from there. And, I mean, it took us years to arrive to where our messaging would excel, even if we're a small team, but we're still, we're constantly, it's never, it's always fluid. It's constantly, we're constantly working at it and seeing what is best. And one of the other things that I wanted to bring up is we wanted to do a storytelling workshop for a large company. They really loved us. They're like, oh, we love what you're doing. We love what you're doing with the platform that you're using. And then they come back to us. But you know what? We really just wanna work with a diversity organization just for Asian-Americans. And I'm like, wait, what? Cause it was for their Asian-Americans employee groups. And I said, but I'm Asian-American. And also the storytelling education is for everyone. That's the point. Like we're not trying to tackle diversity in silos, which it's mostly is tackled. And there was just no talking around it. Sometimes the world is just not ready for your idea. And that's okay. And if the data shows that the world is not ready for your idea, you have a decision. You keep at it or you let it go. And that's one of the hardest decisions to make. It's just you start realizing it's like, well, you're gonna stick to your guns. That's how you're gonna change the world. You're raising a good point, Arabella, because you know what you're also talking about. And I think, Robert, you brought this up with decisions being made for you on a legacy front is the importance of being able to use data to tell stories internally to your decision makers and your stakeholders that have the power to change the course of the way things are done. And it really just drives home that we all have a role to play in being able to tell a good story with data behind it. And that it's a skill that you need to develop as a professional if you are going to move your organization forward and do good. It's almost like we have a moral responsibility to tell stories ethically with ethical data, but it's almost like you're ethically responsible to be able to tell stories inside your organization as well. And that can be a really hard skill to learn, especially if you don't have anyone around you that can mentor you or guide you through that process. Yeah, I think that, yeah, it's like overall great points. I think that, I think I gotta say in like just kind of like, again, what you were saying about the legacies and decisions and all that, I think that what's that saying like how we, and this goes for our companies as well, cause a lot of the people who are in high positions, they were there when quote, the company was in the good old days, or whatever, like they literally put the pass on a pedestal and they demonized the future. They don't wanna like know how we move that company, that's love, this organization or whatnot. And so the way I've gotten around it, especially when I was not a less senior, had a less senior role was I would literally just like every week I would send kind of a roundup with that metrics to my SVP on say it was like social media ads. And I would put like the kind of like high level data points and I put like my takeaways or how I interpreted them. And eventually, sometimes she would scan or you know, or just like to totally delete my emails. So sometimes she would actually read them and sometimes she would follow up with like, what do you mean by this? And you know, it was the those, those are the kind of spark these conversations cause she had the influence with the higher ups that I didn't. And so that's the way I did that. I just did it every single Monday. I had a recap of the metrics. And I see this, I see that, I see a couple of people in my current company do that with their and like, I think it's great. I didn't tell them to do it. They just do it. I think it's one of those things some people do naturally, but if you're not doing it and you wanna make a change and you have access to all this data and you're an expert and you look through it every week, I would encourage you to do that. You know, just it's one way to just kind of get, you know, making sure that, you know, it doesn't take long to send an email. And for leaders to not make assumptions. So I'll give an example, you know, in my business line where I said, we have a business line that's 0%. We have our referrals are for this business line and that looks really bad. What aren't you doing performance wise? There's a huge story behind that and being able and by leaders asking, well, what's the story behind this data point? Why is this the way it is? You're giving your employees the opportunity to share something that they see in their work that can help you guide your decision-making and taking that externally, right? We see, you know, X percentage of, you know, violence in this community or that community. If you're working in that community, how many times have we reached out to those community members and asked them to share the story behind that statistic? And, you know, it always comes back to, somebody was telling me, don't assume anything. And that goes with data as well as don't assume anything. Don't create your own story. Get the story from the source, right? I think that goes into PR and communications and journalism as well as, you know, get a data point, you wanna get it from the source and understand the reason behind it. Yeah, and I'm gonna give a plug to why it's all, it's important to have a diverse team with diverse perspectives because you wouldn't see it that way, right? I learned from, you know, the young people on my team was so valuable because I'm like, oh my goodness. Wow, I didn't see it that way. That's incredible that you saw it that way. And they'll see a piece of data and they'll be like, well, why don't you try it this way? And I'm like, oh, I didn't see that. And I think that's so cool like Robert, like you're seeing also, you know, the junior level of people following suit to what you're doing and giving their perspective on the collection of the data. Yeah, absolutely. And just kind of taking everything that you've shared and thinking about it, I think we're really talking about sort of intentionality in a lot of our work and really going into our work, knowing what values we want to uphold because it's easy enough to say we wanna do the right thing but thinking about what the right thing means for my organization, for me as a person, for my team. That takes a lot of foresight and a lot of intentionality. And as Jamie has mentioned and all of us have mentioned, a lot of testing and iterating. Nebella, you mentioned like the lean model for startups like that's all about iteration, right? Like testing something, breaking it, trying again. And I think that goes hand in hand with the other thing that we started mentioning was precedence for people who do have the ability to influence how can you set a precedence to give initiative to the junior members of the team? And how can junior members of the team see opportunities and try to set a precedence for other members of the team to do the same? And how can we sort of share that sort of internal storytelling culture? So that's something I'm taking from your conversations that I really think are very insightful and comes from your professional experiences. I wanna also give a shout out to the older people on my team who have consulted me and the wisdom that they've brought in that also was like, oh, actually in terms of wisdom, the like, you know, my Marcom's volunteer consultant, he's been, David Jacobson, he's been great in giving me, you know, guidance on ethical storytelling. So, you know, just gotta give that shout out to the older generation as well. Absolutely. And I think we're actually coming to time. I think this hour has flown by and I've really enjoyed hearing everyone's conversations. I'm going to share screen again really quickly to lead us through a quick wrap up. So here we are. Again, I wanna thank you the speakers for your time today, for bringing in your wisdom, bringing in your experience to share with us all and just having a great conversation. For anyone who would love to continue this conversation, I've been checking the chat and there's been lots of amazing insights there as well. PTKO, we have in a professional networking group. It's a closed moderated group in which we want to have more of these conversations to share more of these stories and to ask these type of questions. You can also find more about PTKO at our LinkedIn page. For everyone who is at this event as well as anyone who has RSVP'd, if you know someone who RSVP'd and weren't able to make it, we'll be sending up follow-up emails with a survey to see what other things you'd be interested in us hosting related to these topics of data ethics, of storytelling, of really thinking about how we can use the data on hand more effectively but not only effectively but to fit the values that we have.