 Welcome back to the original gangsters podcast. I'm here in studio with my colleague and co-conspirator Scott Bernstein Hey now and then behind the glass I'm Jimmy Buccellato aka the doctor. Thank you for joining us Just want to remind you to follow us on social media Please subscribe to our channel on YouTube follow us on Instagram Facebook Twitter and we read all of your comments and You know, we appreciate that. It's just it's not always Easy for us to respond and reply to every single one. I'm gonna get better at it. I promise But we do we do read them and we and we appreciate that every one of them It's got to get used to it because it's it's not something that we've really been We haven't been in that like engagement mode and that's on us. Yeah for the last couple years So I just I need to yeah needs to become a routine for me to go through those and respond because you're you're valuable to us your your insight and A perspective to what you know, what we're doing and what we're Providing you is important for us to make the show the best it can be so yeah We appreciate that so speaking of social media before we get to our big topic We actually have a big outlaw motorcycle club episode planned today But before we get to that we just want to spend a few minutes here talking about social media and We published a poll on YouTube if you if you subscribe to our video channel or check out our video channel I posted a poll over the weekend and I wanted to go over the results and then just kick it to my colleagues here Scott and Ben and see how they would do these Rankings, I think it's a fun conversation. We won't spend a lot of time on it But if you look at the poll I published on YouTube I asked which old-school gangster TV show are you binging over the weekend and we had five choices? Boardwalk Empire breaking bad Sons of anarchy the Sopranos and the wire So I think that's probably the big five of like OG gangster TV shows and here are the results And then I'm curious to see what my friends and colleagues here think I'm not shocked by the results Yeah, number one is Sopranos 63 percent you could keep voting by the way audience members But Sopranos number one the wire comes in at number two with 15 percent Boardwalk Empire number three at 13 percent and then sons and breaking bad both have five percent at the bottom there So gentlemen if you were going to binge Which one of these would you revisit? Which order would you would you rank those and by the way? I think we can say that we're fans of all of these shows So it's not like we're going to shit talk full full transparency here for those five shows. I've completed four of them Breaking bad I never finished. Oh, wow I know that that is a blemish on my record I watched the first I think three seasons and I loved it and I need so maybe my answer to this to the To the poll question is I would need to binge the rest of breaking bad I know what happened at the end because I I watched the final a couple episodes the Fidel But I I missed a whole like two three seasons So what which which ones would you just rank though in terms of so of your favorites? I mean, I think the show that won to me is the show that should have won which is the Sopranos I think it's the the easiest to binge the most fun the thing that I think combines both drama and Great writing great acting but also a lot of humor. There's there's the I think we talked about it when we were talking about The film how I I didn't or this prequel film how I didn't love the story that was being told to me in Many saints of Newark, but I loved being back in that world. It felt very familiar. It felt very comfortable Yeah, I agree. I I think Sopranos has the most rewatch ability. Yes out of all of those. That's a good way to put it Like Scott said the humor in it All those shows. Yeah, you have some funny moments, but it's not like the Sopranos whether breaking balls and you know It's like good fellas. Yeah terms of the Godfather and the guy thought of the amount of lines You could repeat. Yeah, and you never get sick of watching it like you can never get sick of watching it A lot of those other shows Not so much. I will say the Sopranos out of all of those five Has the highest peak of television But I don't think it's the greatest show from front to back out of those five interesting tell us more share I would I would actually say Out of those five. I have not watched Sons of Anarchy shame on me. I gotta watch that. It's good I have seen the other four. I Would say breaking bad is the best from front to back in all seasons. I think Sopranos Season six not just because of the final episode. I'm fine with how it ended fine with David Chase's decision I actually like the artistic choice to do it that way But I think the soprano feel dies off in season six part one and two I I'll go I'll make even a bolder claim and I love the Sopranos So some of this is blasphemous, but to me The first three seasons were in a league of its own with the soprano I totally agree the first three seasons were per I mean perfect the way that the two Godfathers are perfect And the way that goodfellows is perfect. Yeah, nothing I would change Going from season four five and six and others two seasons to two parts of season six I actually thought it Revved up it ticked up tick back up at the end I enjoyed the way it ended with kind of the the chaos surrounding the war and all that stuff But I I didn't particularly in retrospect. I thought it it dipped in like five like I didn't like five no, but I agree the first to me the first two seasons of the Sopranos is peak television That's ever seen. How would you guys? So how would you but three but three but season three you get Ralphie that first that First year of Ralphie the day the Richie April Ralphie back-to-back seasons as the Antagonists were so so great. I mean two of the greatest villains For a show full of anti-heroes. They weren't heroes. They weren't heroes at all They were they were the villains and they were just so amazing David Proval's Richie April and Joe Pampliano Is Ralphie Zafaretto, so how would you how would you rank the will take breaking bad out for Scott? We'll take Suns out for Ben. How would where would you put your three and four then? well, I I Go Sopranos Me yeah, I go Sopranos or two three and four I go Sopranos wire Sons boardwalk, okay. I will go breaking bad then Sopranos Then boardwalk and then the wire the wire man season four I I Had a trouble getting through it I it took me a long time because I don't like when shows focus around children Yeah, and that was the whole season when it's around entries the elementary school Baltimore public schools that's when that was the focus and I think it died a lot I didn't particularly love the whole like the Greek on the boats and His name was Alcabaca was a guy that ran the drove the Zamboni of the Detroit Red Wings infusing him with the gangster character on On the wire, but there were parts of season two that I liked but I didn't love all the Corruption on the docks. Yeah, a lot of people are critical of season two as well I didn't mind it, but Definitely not a lead television all the way through for me. Yeah, I would I would agree with you guys I mean for my number one is the Sopranos and I Would agree with one thing and push back on another. I would agree with that I think breaking bad and I would put sons in there are More even than Sopranos because I agree with Ben that season six for the Sopranos wasn't as strong What I would push back on is I still love seasons four and five for me Sopranos No, again, I won through five and then the dip is in six I didn't love it. I loved it. I'm just saying in the envy Context of comparing things that I loved. Yeah, I thought the first three seasons were superior to the last three seasons But I loved it all. Yeah. Yeah, I think I go. I still put four and five. I think four and five are I'm gonna have a little bit of spoilers almost as good as You can put out spoilers if you haven't seen the Sopranos at this point. That's on you. Yeah What season was Chris involved in the movie shit that was seasons That was the first part of season six. Oh that was season six the first didn't like that Okay, and then the part where Adriana Takes the bullet that's five. That's five, but I like that Yeah, there's still great story arcs in five and four So it's still good television I thought they copped out on some storylines and they did not cop out on the Adriana Lisserva story I just showed that showed you how brutal and and cold-blooded these guys are season six Just didn't have the same soprano field. I agree. That's that I agree and I see the reason why I stick up for a season five is The introduced I felt like it was a nice jolt because they introduced some really interesting characters with Frank Vincent's character Philly a Tardo of the introduction man for No, he gets out of jail. They all those guys get out of jail. It's called the class of 2004 Yeah, I'll get out of jail in season five here. You're shimmies. Yeah, that was all that started five Okay, you're right Angelo you start seeing guys like rusty And so you get more New York stuff, which by the way, I've talked to other people They don't they didn't like that as much. I mean again like like you're saying they still love the show overall but but they felt like the New York stuff was Distracting from the Jersey stuff But as a nerd who loves this stuff for me the mafia politics Those are some of my favorite realistic if they would have had the war between let's say New Jersey and Philadelphia Then New Jersey in New York because in well, that would never Again, we're playing the whole like if this was a real crime family and this was yeah, you know a real life It's ridiculous to think that the New Jersey crime family could go to war with all the five families and not just Survive but win win the war Right, where did you put sons of anarchy again? I put sons number three. Okay Yeah, I would put some problems one I would put sons number two and wow, okay I do think I do understand why people prefer breaking batter the wire I wouldn't necessarily argue with you that sons of anarchy is a is a better show. I Just like it. I liked it more. I've found sons more entertaining than I did those those other shows It's real over the top. It's a lot of times. It's unrealistic Got sort of comic bookish, but and I say that in a good way I'm a comic book nerd. So I don't I mean that in a good way a lot of action I loved how sons had the different crime groups almost every episode There was like a crime group of the week who they were fucking with either black gangs Italian mafia Russian Mafia the Mayans triads cartels. I even Irish organized crime. I always thought that was fun I you know, this is I think we're gonna be able to segue. It's gonna be a nice smooth clean segue Because we're talking about sons of anarchy and then we're about to jump in to the story of the outlaws motorcycle club in 2022 and the fact that this the most prominent outlaw motorcycle club in the Midwest is the outlaws and They have a member of the outlaws right now who's in his late 20s Jojo Noe who a lot of people call the real-life Jack's Teller Because there's some similarities between his background and and the fictional character Jack's Teller played by Charlie Charlie Hunam Hunam In in sons and we're gonna talk about that in a second, but you know, I fell in love with sons because It was at the same time that I was falling in love with researching real-life Biker activity. It was something that I knew nothing about As much as I didn't know about the mafia before I started Reporting on and researching it. I knew it a little bit from, you know, my family From the movies I had watched the television shows I had watched my grandpa's friends So I didn't know it like an expert, but I knew it I didn't know one iota about outlaw biker culture until I started studying it and researching it and then all of a sudden the show is on the air and it's Bringing to life at least in a fictional galaxy Stuff that I was studying and in and in a lot of ways it helped me Help me understand the culture even though it was a Hollywood version of that culture. So yeah, I think it's fun And I would put probably I don't know I guess I would probably put the wire at five me it was a wire boardwalk four or five Breaking bad I would put three and I would just shout out what I actually did binge Better call Saul over the weekend and and Ben if you're a big breaking bad guy You should probably watch it the first few seasons are kind of tough because it's not very gay It's not really it's not as related to the to the breaking bad universe but eventually you get like the chicken man and you know Salamanca and Spoiler I think everyone like Scott saying everyone knows this already Walter White shows up in better call Saul in the last Season the last few episodes in flashbacks and so does Jesse so does Hank and it's it's fun It's fun to revisit that sort of like you were saying with Many say it's like if you were breaking bad person It was really fun and satisfying to see Walter White turn up again even though we obviously know he's not around but in these flashbacks and I'd be curious to hear about what you think about how it turns out for Saul aka Jimmy At the very end I have mixed feelings on how on how it how it ended but Anyhow, we appreciate everyone participating in the poll and we have fun talking about these shows But yeah, I mean we were talking about sons of anarchy Bernie has been doing some reporting about the outlaws On the east coast and I think that's going to be the the rest of our episode here. So Tell us tell us what's going on. So let's first just give people a primer on the outlaws motorcycle club which outside of the Hell's Angels is The biggest name on the marquee when it comes to biker world OC around the world They're international They were started in Chicago Eventually the the seat of power moved to Detroit in the 1980s and stayed there until the 2000s Right now the seat of power in the outlaws is on the east coast For really the first time in outlaws motorcycle club history the president international president Of the club has been identified in court papers over the last couple years as a as a guy named John Ermin out in Buffalo goes by the nickname Tommy Oh and He is Reportedly a very charismatic leader. He's tied into the mafia in Buffalo run security at the Faro strip club, which is the strip club run by the Tadduro crime family and Over the last couple years as Tommy Oh has taken power the outlaws have found themselves Fighting wars on two separate fronts. So you have the Long-standing dispute that the outlaws have had with the Hell's Angels Which is a war that's been going on on and off since 1973 the longest standing biker feud probably ever and You have Another war that's taking place Between the outlaws and the pagans and the pagans and outlaws had never been adversarial before Outlaws and Hell's Angels have been adversarial for 50 years pagans were a regional group that were based out of the southeast southeastern part of the United States and Under new leadership in their club From about five six years ago a guy by the name Conan the bar or Keith Richter who goes by the nickname Conan the barbarian They've undertook an expansion campaign where they are actively Moving out of the southeast in up the the the eastern seaboard into New England and then fanning out to the the West the Pacific Northwest into parts of the south they haven't been in in the past going into areas like Texas and Oklahoma and Oregon and Washington, it's a very ambitious very ambitious plan And this has put them at odds with the outlaws so you've had a series of Shootings and killings that have resulted from this Well, really from both but from the dust up with the pagans there is some some pending murder cases and then the long-standing feud between the Hell's Angels and The outlaws resulted in a big first-degree murder trial That just ended in New England and at Fall River, Massachusetts where the quote-unquote real Jack's teller Jojo Noe Jr. 28 years old it's kind of a Everyman, you know in terms of the way he looks there. There's some resemblance to Jack's teller now it's you know, he's a guy that is has blonde hair and his dad Was one of the not one of the founders of the outlaws in general, but helped It was very integral and bringing the outlaws to New England about 30 years ago. His dad's the is a Illuminary in the outlaws Organization known as Joe dogs Joe senior Joe. No, we senior Joe. That was the storyline in sons Right Jack's teller's father was a shot call right influential dude Yes, and Jack's teller was being groomed as a leader in in the Sam Crow and over the last five six seven years Little Jojo has been groomed as a future leader in the New England outlaws He was tasked. You see he's from Taunton Where I believe his dad led the taunton Outlaws, but Jojo in the last couple years has been tasked with helping start up the Fall River chapter of the outlaws and Fall River is a working-class factory town smack dab in between Boston and Providence and It's it's very hard scrabble very gritty a lot of different ethnicities. It's a real melting pot and There In addition to this expansion going on by the pagans Tommy Oh has a mini expansion of his own going on where the outlaws are in in a New England expansion as the pagans are in this nationwide expansion and Part of this expansion is going into parts of The purpose of this expansion is going into parts of the Northeast They hadn't been in it hadn't been in before and the fact that they finally have a President that exists in that region is only strengthening outlaws power on the East Coast So Tommy Oh is is putting I think they've put something like 10 chapters in different Cities in New England over the last two three years and one of those new chapters was the Fall River Fall River chapter Meanwhile Fall River had always been a Hell's Angels stronghold so It gets confusing even for me who reports on it, but you have the the big-name brand clubs The three that we've thrown out today Hell's Angels Pagans outlaws, but then underneath those clubs. You have what they call support clubs or puppet clubs where they're smaller clubs that Aren't absorbed by the bigger clubs that they don't quote-unquote patch over but they exist to augment The big club so it's almost like Here in Detroit you got the Detroit Tigers and then if you go an hour down south into Ohio You have the Toledo Mud Ends, right? So they're not the Toledo Tigers They're Toledo Mud Ends, but they support the Detroit Tigers. Yeah, so in Fall River you have a group called the Sidewinders, which is the main Hell's Angels support club in Fall River In this in September of 2019 I Believe that's the date I can double-check There was an altercation at a popular biker bar or biker hangout in Fall River it took place yet September of nine of 2019 and This is one of the four or five murder cases that have been filed against members of the outlaws and in recent years tied to all of this drama and Just something like out of a movie script First it was it's very intriguing and compelling to follow this even though it takes place in a small city like Fall River But there's been a lot of you know Jojo, no no he had you know clearly has a lot of flair and a lot of swagger and He was and this is the reason I'm comparing it to a movie script is First you had a couple years ago. He's arrested for first-degree murder in a very questionable parking lot brawl shooting that Spoiler alert he was acquitted of last week So now he's on the other side of it. He's a free man doesn't have to worry about this anymore But we're gonna kind of do a quick little deep dive into that into that shooting which was a brawl in in the parking lot of JC's cafe between Jojo Noe in his entourage which included his girlfriend and his uncle and a large group of Sidewinders and blackhand motorcycle club members in the blackhand were a support club for the Sidewinders which were a support club for the Hell's Angels and There was like 20 of them against like three Outlaws and As the the Sidewinders were assaulting Jojo's uncle I think they had lead pipes right there. They were well. Yeah, Jojo Jojo's uncle was being beaten with the pipes and and bats and and Two by fours and Jojo Noe shot one of the people that was Looking like he was about to kill his uncle Eric for shell was his name. He was a fireman. He was also a member of the Sidewinders So let me I know I'm all over the place. I apologize, but why this is kind of Very It has a lot of entertainment Value to it and and and it's it's easy to paint a picture when when there are these Events that are just kind of organically Feeling very like made for a reality show or made for a scripted show. So a little Jojo Gets arrested after the the the shooting in 2019. He's kept for I want to say six months to a year They they're denying him bond the judge a Decides to grant him bond. I think this was a last about a year and a half ago during the the peak of the pandemic and You had about a thousand Supporters of the outlaws coming to the to the to the police station and they they prop up Jojo No, no, he's bike and he literally walked out of The police station they on that they take off the handcuffs. He puts on his his His outlaws gear jumps on his chopper and and kind of leads a A a cavalcade of outlaws from the police station to a kind of a welcome home party. It was very dramatic Yeah, it's very dramatic, but he still had to account for for the case and it went to trial in August and it was about a Three-week trial and You know, I looked at all the facts. I got my hands on some police reports I got my hands on some eyewitness testimony and I wrote some stories before the trial and It was pretty clear that this was self-defense. So I wasn't shocked that He was acquitted and was found not guilty. I can break down some of the facts right now But you know, this this wasn't Anywhere near I mean what this was the definition of an overcharge by a prosecutor if you're gonna charge this guy You you charge them a second degree But to say that this was a premeditated murder if you look at the facts the eyewitness testimony and the surveillance footage That came from the bar none of it speaks to a premeditated murder in fact it speaks to a A a group of rivals to the outlaws Trying to bully and intimidate Jojo his girlfriend and his uncle and That intimidation turned physical and it could have become fatal if if Jojo didn't Intercede and protect his uncle and possibly his girlfriend from being hurt. So no charges were filed against the other guys No, so what you had was Jojo his girlfriend his uncle. I think one or two other people Went into this JC's cafe on September 13 2019 to get a drink They went and took a table at the back of a tavern. They weren't looking for any trouble At the bar when they went and sat down were a group of black hand motorcycle club members who were connected to the Sidewinders who are connected to the Hells Angels and these black hand members were looking to start trouble and they were Leaving the bar going to the parking lot where they would congregate They were on their cell phone. They were calling for backups for reinforcements After about 45 minutes Jojo and his entourage are about after about an hour They decided to leave The reinforcements hadn't shown up yet So it looked like based on the surveillance video these black hand motorcycle club members Created an altercation with Jojo to to have to give the sidewinders members that were coming to the bar to Presumably beat up Jojo and his entourage had it, you know, they weren't gonna be there for another two to three minutes So the black club or black hand motorcycle club members Created a diversion which was to stop Jojo and his entourage as they were going to the parking lot to get on their bikes to leave and there was a verbal spat People had to get in between Jojo and this member of this member of the black hand club It lasted two or three minutes by the time the that altercation breaks up and Jojo his uncle is His fiance are in the parking lot going to their vehicles to leave all of a sudden a dozen Sidewinder show up and their wielding weapons the bats lead pipes two by fours and Immediately this is all shown on tape corner Jojo and his fiancee by a chain link fence and One of the members of the sidewinders not Vochel who gets killed takes out what almost looked like numb chucks Some type of some type of hammer attached to like a chain and Swings it at Stephanie. I don't know her last name but that's Jojo's fiancee and Jojo then pulls out his weapon. He has a registered The firearm license with a or has a registered firearm with a with a legal license To carry he pulls it out And that crowd then disperses away from him and his fiancee and turned their attention to his uncle who was about to get on his bike at the same time as Jojo and his fiancee were and that Come that becomes a melee and Jojo's uncle and I think one or two other people are attacked by these 12 13 Sidewinders they're being attacked with weapons Jojo's uncle Johnny know he Has his skull cracked by a hammer and as Eric for shell is You know grabbing a pipe and running full speed Taking a swing at Johnny known Johnny know he Jojo shot him dead Is his uncle a patched his uncle? I am not sure but his uncle Had to be admitted to the hospital had to spend I think a week in the hospital was very serious injuries and From all that we get a first-degree murder charge that Jojo beat last week after a three-week trial But it was a three-year ordeal and it is kind of emblematic of what's going on with the outlaws right now You know how many shots you fired? I? Don't I I have it in a report somewhere It wasn't he didn't rip off a bunch of shots Okay, yeah, because that that becomes problematic if you've ever had Training for like carrying a right. You're told right away Self-defense is you know is once the threat is neutralized Yeah, keep on if you keep on pulling which was part of getting trouble Right which was part of the issue that he had because the threat against him had been neutralized So this was he was pleading self-defense in defense of a third party and that's part of the self-defense act and if you can prove that a third party is About to face irreparable danger or harm You have a right you have a duty to defend. Do you know where he shot him? Where Vochel was killed or what part of the body where I was killed? I don't know off the top of my head, but the when the police arrived Vochel was dead on the ground Yeah, I mean, I guess it depends. I don't know the laws in Massachusetts, but I know when I had my training in Michigan If you're defending a family member, it's different, but like if if a third party is under assault They instruct you to call the police stay out of it like you you well, that's where there were things worse Well, that's where there was some wiggle room. I think for authorities. Yeah, right. They tried to explore Yeah, because you know the danger had been removed from him and his fiancee at that point, right, right But I think with this because it was his family member. I think I think it sounds like it was justified to me But that he well, that's what that's what they that's what the jury found and I didn't understand The first-degree charging And there's another couple incidents like this that I can go over right he didn't it seems like he didn't go out looking to kill Some right and there there are at least three other incidents right now involving outlaws Around the country two are in Tennessee one out of Nashville one out of Clarksville and then another case out of Oklahoma where I don't want to say that the circumstances are identical but Similar circumstances where if there is Culpability it would be manslaughter culpability, but the but because I'm guessing because they're outlaws and they wear their colors And they're proud to wear their colors they're looked at as you know a menace that these individuals are looked at as Menaces to society and are not given the benefit of the doubt. So the prosecutors are coming in with the first-degree murder Charges whether or not they're warranted or not. Let me by the way, just a fact from their actual Site here that outlaws website. They were the first one percenter club east of the Mississippi. So they're definitely the OG's here Let me ask you something Do you think that this was does this Restaurant have a reputation for being a hangout for them. Yeah, I mean was it was it a I'm not saying Don't get it twisted. I'm not saying that that it justified Anybody getting jumped, but was it a provocation for him to go to this? There had been a number of incidents at JC's tavern in the previous year That had led to a no-color rule Because there had been a lot of fights between biker factions Yeah, so Jojo and his crew were not wearing any identifying gear identifying them as as outlaws in The blackhand motorcycle club weren't wearing any identifying gear either, but because Jojo Noe and the outlaws are Pretty high profile then the Sidewinders and No disrespect to people that ride and support clubs, but like we were saying there's you know There's the Toledo mud hens and there's the Detroit Tigers There's the Columbus Clippers or the Columbus Yankees and the New York Yankees There's the Durham Bulls and there's the Atlanta Braves, but by assaulting them they're trying to curry favor with the Hells Angels I'm assuming. Yeah, they're just they're at the war between the Hells Angels and the outlaws. I Don't believe this has been changed. I mean there are varying degrees of follow-through But the rules of that war state when you see a member of your rival club you attack on site Yeah, and if you don't you're gonna have your colors pulled Well, I wanted to ask you about the politics of it because my understanding it was always that New England maybe was just Boston I'm Misinformed, but I always thought New England was Hells Angels stronghold Well, it seems like you're saying the pagans and now the outlaws first. Yeah Well, the Hells Angels came in there in the 70s. Yeah, and then Joe dogs Little Jojo Noe's dad was one of the founding fathers of the New England Outlaws who came in there and like the mid-80s and the Hells Angels So There there's been, you know simmering tensions between those between at least between the outlaws and the Hells Angels in New England for 30 years plus You know the the pagans are you know, you're adding more, you know new fuel to the fire and Is the the Hells Angels don't like each other either you've got a three Yeah, because I mean there's and then you know, there's some more politics in this the pagans have aligned with the Mongols. Oh Yeah, which is another 1% group. I was wondering about that and the Mongols are helping them in their push West they're more West right Mongols are more West and then I think we talked about this on another show, but I'll just Reiterate or mention it again the pagans part of the pagans expansion effort is saying screw this white nationalism stuff like if you can help us expand our brand and And boost our bottom line. We don't care if you're if you're White yeah, and they've opened the the ranks to Hispanics and they focused on recruiting a lot of Latino members especially as a Weapon for their arsenal as they head west because there's such a Hispanic influence Part of that people can correct me if I'm wrong But the isn't part of the history of the Mongols because the Hells Angels wouldn't allow Latino members into the club so the banditos in the Mongols. Yeah, so they started. Yeah, so there was more like Multiasneck, yeah, you didn't have to be just a white right to get into it. So that's a strategic partnership So So you have These situations that are popping up all around the country and it's not just in New England where you have this trial take place You have another three trials another three murder trials that will go off in the next year like I said to in Tennessee and One in well, actually, I don't know what's going on in Oklahoma right now. I got a double check But the the main defendant in the Oklahoma case, let's let's go to their for go there for a second Arlo Nelson just like Jojo Noe He was a Head for the wall You know, if you're a member of law enforcement if you're a prosecutor if you're a cop you want these big name high ranking guys and These are the type of big fish if you will that are gonna get you promotions and sometimes a lot of the times There's overcharging So it was a lot sexier to go after Jojo Noe for killing Eric for shell Then it probably would have been for Eric for shell killing Jojo Noe because nobody knows who the sidewinders are everybody knows who the outlaws are so in Oklahoma In an out of Oklahoma City You had the pagans show up out of nowhere two three years ago Open up a chapter you had the outlaws who had been against the ropes from a bus that happened in the 2000s that had put some major shotcalls away in prison one of those being this Virgil Nelson who everyone calls Arlo and Arlo was you know, we were talking about You know with the New England guys we're talking about people that were were founding fathers Arlo Nelson was a founding father of the Outlaws in Oklahoma He was one of the seven guys that started the first outlaw chapter in Oklahoma I think it was in 76 or 77 There was DEA and ATF surveillance of Arlo and those guys in 77 going to Florida and being officially patched in to you know part of the outlaw regime and Then they ran rough shot through Oklahoma City in the 70s 80s 90s finally a bunch of these guys went away Arlo Nelson comes out of prison There's some debate about what role he has right now in in the club the government Is making it to seem like he's the godfather I have a lot of people telling me Sources if you will people in that Oklahoma Outlaw orbit that he's not the godfather that yes, he's a very respected member of of that club but he's more of like a Emeritus he's more of a guy that you know has standing in the club because of him being an OG but isn't The shotcaller like the government is making it out to be anyway in 2020 Sorry No, let me double-check the the date on this. I believe it was 2020 in 2020 There was a shooting on a hot on an expressway on highway in Oklahoma where there was gunfire exchange between two pagans and two outlaws and One of the pagans who was a Marine that Name Danny Aaron was killed see that is the kind of shit you see in Sons of Anarchy Yeah, I mean that that's you know, I was saying sometimes sons are it's over the top, but in this case 2021 September 12th, 2021 The government claims that Or the government claimed that Nelson was responsible for the first-degree murder of Danny Aaron After Almost a year the government dropped the charges Against Aaron. Oh, sorry drop the charges against Nelson for the for the Aaron homicide And There had been a couple more people Back through some of my report. Sorry. It's right. I reported on it. It's on my website on gangsta report. You can look at it I did I did kind of um, I Remember you were an analysis of that case and it just you couldn't tell who had shot first, right? Nelson They had him on videotape and you could kind of see some of the stuff that The prosecutors were saying weren't true based on the surveillance video I was told that some of these other guys that were charged these other outlaws on that were charged in the Danny Aaron homicide that that that the case is either About to be dropped or has been dropped against them, too. I don't want to speak out of school I know for a fact the case was dropped about two months ago against Arlo Nelson who was the the number one defendant in the case and this was another example of pagans and outlaws Dust-ups that end up in in dead bodies and there's been a number of them these last couple years Well, and there's also Hell's Angels and pagans that you don't you ever seen that video footage on YouTube of in New York where the Allegedly Hell's Angels guys whack a pagan member have you ever seen that in the Bronx? Yeah, so You got like a this on camera. Yeah. Yeah, you can you got the actual head see this surveillance Yeah, so then the last one I'll talk about So they're fighting there's like Fighting on all sides. It's not just you know, you want to get a against B. It's like a against B against C against a It's pretty interesting. Yeah so There was another incident this took place in June of 2019 Took place outside of a longhorn steakhouse in Clarksville Which is gotta love it in Mount Gummary County It's not anyone there Nashville or Memphis or Tatt Nugget. It's kind of its own Isn't some of that caught on surveillance video some of that All of these were caught on surveillance. Yeah, I was gonna you can't do anything these days without your activity So this was everybody's got a ring the outlaws in Clarkston Butting heads with members of what is called the king kin folk motorcycle group, which is a support club of the pagans so The pagans made some type of deal With kinfolk and Kinfolk took issue with the outlaws because of this Ongoing Expansion by the pagans they're looking to break it basically just Steamroll over anyone that gets in their way when they're coming into into new towns whether or not that Group has been there for 40 years or not and from my research the outlaws in Clarksville have been You know very prominent there for a very long time and the pagans didn't really have any presence and they came in they made a deal with this this group the kinfolk and then Let me back up for a second. I Believe the kinfolk is now the pagans. I think in 2019 The kinfolk was what was called a support club, but I think after this incident. I'm pretty sure Kinfolk was then patched over to to the pagans, so you had an incident at a Steakhouse where the mayor of Clarksville was present when this happened. Oh, wow and it actually had a conversation with one of the accused murders before The murder took place What does that mean? And they're not they're not saying that the mayor did anything wrong just the coincidence So the guy who got killed or the two guys that got killed was the boss of the kinfolk Motorcycle gang got him John Allgood who went by the nickname deacon and he was a long time Presence in the biker world and in Clarksville everybody knew him and then there was a younger guy named Jimbo Ramsey who Was a victim. I'm not I'm not trying to Dance on his grave at all, but his behavior seemed very very unhinged and You could probably argue that the people that killed him were again acting either in self-defense or Trying to Deescalate a situation that was escalating because of Jimbo Ramsey. So you had a situation where you had two members of the outlaws Mike the Hulk craft and Jackie rapper Davis a hulking rapper are indicted now for the first-degree murder of Deacon Allgood and Jimbo Ramsey they're gonna go on trial some point either this year or early next year and All this started one night in June of 2019 when a Prospect a guy that was trying to become a member of the outlaws Saw a guy by the name of To black Zach to black they call him toe strap. So toe strap was driving to meet Mike craft and Jackie rapper Davis at a bar that wasn't Longhorn steakhouse. It was called the tilted kill. They've got one around here They're it's a chain of of Irish pubs around the around the country and while he was driving to meet his superiors in the outlaws. He saw a Motorcycle or a group of motorcycles in the parking lot of the Longhorn steakhouse was you didn't recognize? So I guess if you're the outlaws and you consider Clark's fill your territory and you see bikes that aren't outlaw bikes I Guess maybe your inclination would be to stop and see what's going on Well, aren't you isn't the protocol that if if it's outlaws territory if you're another Patch club don't you have to get permission to show your to show your I guess but the pagans in the Kinfolk I guess weren't we're acknowledging that's part of recognizing that. This is the conflict. Yeah, right. So toe strap enters The Longhorn steakhouse. I guess toe strap knew the mayor Had a conversation with the mayor that lasted I think less than a minute, but he stopped at the mayor's table and then It depends on who you who you're asking he either tapped Jimbo Ramsey on the shoulder as he was leaving or if you believe prosecutors made a grab for Jimbo Ramsey's Patch on his Vests that said Kinfolk either way it led to a fight between Toe strap and Jimbo Ramsey is going to be a quiz by the way. Yeah, I know this is I know all these names. It's confusing for me So I can imagine The the first altercation is broke. It's kind of broken up and then Toe strap the the outlaws prospect goes to the tilted kilt where eventually he meets up with with might craft the Hulk and Rapper Davis and as they're leaving tilted kilt They're which is I guess adjacent to Longhorn steakhouse They are driving past Longhorn where they see Deacon and Ramsey and they stopped now whether they stopped to deescalate or Reescalate is is up for debate. But what is known is that at that point Ramsey takes out a gun and Starts waving it around the parking lot Screaming at the top of his lungs making threats Deacon who was his boss Is telling him to calm down Put your gun down You're not to do any good acting acting this way at some point Deacon turns to Toe strap and And I think starts hollering at him blaming him for getting Ramsey all Jacked up to the point where he's waving his weapon around and then Deacon all good According to surveillance video and to the eyewitness accounts head butted toe strap which then started other people shooting and in that shootout both Deacon all good and Jimbo Ramsey were were killed and the the the kill shots came from Mike Kraft and and rapper Davis So let me ask you some conceptual things See what you think based on your reporting and both let me just point out that both Hulk Kraft and rapper Davis were Former like special forces like they had very extensive tactical gun training Well, that actually is something I want to bring up and ask you about because it connects to the the first case in New England the victim for the support club for the Hell's Angels was a Fireman firefighter and One thing that we've done an episode on people can go back and check it out in the archives It's actually right now our number two ranked episode is Street gangs and outlaw bikers in the military in terms of audio episodes It's our second most downloaded episode, but you can watch the video too and Something that we make in the case we make in that episode is that it's under-reported the amount of former and current active-duty military personnel who are You know patched over members of outlaw clubs But also, I think under-reported is how many active police officers and firefighters are members of of motorcycle clubs and again To be fair not every motorcycle club is a 1% right that I mean for people if they don't know that that's fair to mention So just because somebody is in a motorcycle club. That's the whole point of the 1% That's the whole point of that designation is 99% of motorcycle clubs are just guys that are motorcycle enthusiasts to like to hang out They might be Hellraisers, but they're not you know, it's not a criminal. It's not actually right right So the 1% is it's a different it's a different animal that that we're talking about But in some cases the cops in the fireman, it's not just the 99% there. They're 1% is now That gets weird too because Outlaw bikers by definition don't like cops. Yeah Weird and when I we we did an episode, you know with with another biker former shot caller and and you know talking off-air that that this was sort of And he was out of Pete big Pete. Yeah, he was outlaw's quote-unquote mother ship Yeah, which was the the clubhouse the the chapter in Chicago that it all started the Southside chapter in Chicago It all started. Yeah, and it's still considered the mother ship, but it's an interesting debate going on which is like Is it? Kosher if you will to allow a cop to become an outlaw because by definition you don't like cops But then the other side of it is yeah, but it's useful to have and it's not in a friendly relationships a local police department It's not just happening in Tennessee. I I'm blanking on the club. It was either outlaws or pagans, but there was a case out of Hillsborough County by by Tampa State Pete where there are I don't think just firemen, but like Higher ups in the fire department and Hill Hill County that are being accused of being members of outlaw motorcycle gangs Yeah, yeah, and and I know this is in California to not necessarily outlaw breakers, but street gangs and But from some of the people that I've talked to you have this a lot of it goes back to Sons of Anarchy Which we started the episode with that these cops Fucking love that shit. And then they look a local PD. I'm not talking about FBI ATF DEA things like that But local cops and then they they see a guy who's in like the outlaws and the outlaws guy thinks almost a cop He's gonna fuck with me and they're like, oh, no dude outlaws right on Because they fucking they love that shit and it's it's becoming a similar thing like the mystique of the Italian mafia like like even sometimes people Like the mystique they get caught up in like I kind of like these guys even though I'm not supposed to Well, it's it's a brand and there's a Sex appeal to the brand there's a There's something Like you said mystique it's it's it's it's very What's the word I'm looking for it's like it draws you in you're you're you're almost transfixed by by The way that that the blueprint is for some of these guys. I mean, I know the way I In talking about, you know, the brand brand recognition or brand loyalty or whatever And again, no disrespect to some of the support clubs But you know when I'm driving around and I see guys on bikes and I'm looking at what they're You know what what the rockers what they're what the rockers are saying what club they're representing And if I see, you know some club, you know, I don't recognize Whatever, but if I see a guy wearing an outlaw patch Yeah, I'm like, okay. This this guy's the real deal Yeah, I remember the guy on the support club. It still might be a one percenter. It still might be a bad ass But he's not with the big club. He's not in the major leagues He's not he's not hitting third in Yankee stadium like some of the guys, uh, you know are uh, And the outlaws and in here in Detroit has been a you know, outlaw hotbed forever and I've been lucky to have some exposure to some of those guys and They're they're the real deal man real deal holy field fringe of the fringe I've been to some rock concerts where you see outdoor rock concerts Yeah, like for old old school rock bands, you'll see guys not just the outlaws but other groups, but you know for you know kid rock is a is a born and bred detroiter and very proud of being from detroit and uh, you know, I know for Most of kid rock's career when he goes on tour His security is provided by the outlaws the outlaws are are very much a part of of motown history You know the fabric of of at least in terms of the underworld and and kind of the dark belly of of The motor city the outlaws kind of weave their history through Taco bowman, you know besides sonny barger who was the Famous boss of the hell's angels, you know taco bowman is without question Outside of sonny barger the most notorious well-known biker boss in american history and he's and he's you know, he's the one who brought the At least brought the presidency of the outlaws to detroit and he led the um the outlaws From the early 80s into the late 90s Let me ask you because we died a couple years ago in prison. Let me ask you one more conceptual Uh, and maybe there's not an answer to this These conflicts that they're getting into the one percenters How much of it is tribal versus business or is it that is that impossible to answer because it's both It's both and I think there's something to be said about There outside of new york city and philadelphia The feds aren't really making mob cases anymore The feds are still making a lot of biker cases. I think A lot of the resources that we're going Towards italian oc Haven't just been shifted to terrorism. I think a lot of those resources have been shifted towards the bikers um, especially Uh, in in these areas where we're seeing all of this disruption um, and one thing to mention about The tommy o who's The boss of outlaws right now and in his regime and and how he's kind of this chess match between him And you know the pagans boss, uh, well former boss conan the barbarian who's in prison But we'll be coming out soon and i'm sure we'll be reclaiming his his his throne and uh You know, this was all conan the barbarians vision this this they called the the blue wave which is to you know spread Pagan propaganda and and the pagan brand around the country to to become a national international brand And this is all his brainchild. So tommy. Oh had to it's got you know, like a Making moves on a chess board. You know tommy. Oh's response was to beef up outlaws activity in New england but just like The pagans are making alliances with latin kings You know letting hispanics join the ranks and and and get into powerful shot calling position Making an alliance with the mongols. Well Based on my reporting tommy. Oh's doing the same thing. He is Reaffirming the outlaws connections with the italian mafia, which have always been very strong Stronger than the hell's angels and stronger than the pagans Um, the outlaws have always worked very close with the italians and in every city that they're there in And just like the pagans were opening up The gates to doing business with non whites latinos and hispanics There might be some layers here But i've heard there's Some connections to some of the urban Uh street gangs Gangster disciples and some other groups to fend off Some of some of this push by the pagans I mean, I know the at least I don't know about now, but I know at some point the chicago outlaws They they had relationships with the black dudes black gangs latino gangs not just the the italians But what I mean by tribal versus Businesses, I think it's interesting sociologically because Some of the bikers people I've talked to and I haven't talked to as many people as scott has but Uh, they always tell me like they don't have a problem with like other clubs that it's it's about business And as long as business is fine and they're not encroaching on each other's business They don't give a fuck about these other clubs. I don't know if they're telling me that because I don't know what their agenda is but that that's what they say and so That seems very different than like A street gang thing where it's it's like if you're the wrong set It doesn't have anything to do with business. It's total tribal It's total tribal if you're wearing the wrong colors in the street corner. You're good, right This is our street corner. This is right exactly and then and it's almost nothing to do with business If anything to do at all with business and I wonder what the bikers How much of that because you do it does seem a little bit tribal with this like This is our this is our neighborhood and you shouldn't be coming to our club wearing those other colors But when you talk to some of the other guys, you know, but think about it logistically if you're the outlaws And you've had control of in in this case or in these two cases that we've recently talked about You've had control of Oklahoma City for 40 years 50 years almost you've had control of Clarksville for 30 40 years and there's been no Presence of any other groups challenging your authority and then all of a sudden in 2017 18 Conan barbarian from you know, his bully pulpit in in Long Island, New York says, you know what we're going into all those areas that we weren't in before And then you go from having the run of the place in terms of at least that biker world For four decades and then all of a sudden there's all these interlopers and carpetbaggers so I guess that that that does breed tribalism, right? Yeah, yeah, but I wonder like it just seems like, um, you know, um Like if you can make money together Well, I guess it depends like if you talk to some guys they're gonna say well, this has nothing to do with organized crime Anyhow, we're just we're just like But if you if you if you acknowledge for the moment that some of them are involved in organized crime Um, it's not good for business to be shooting each other right Well, what's I mean? Well, that's there's there's you know, the chickens have come home to roost. Yeah. This is what happens when someone declares a war or declares, you know, this this this territory um Acquisition, yeah, I mean look what's happening man. It's not the exact same thing, but you know look what's happened in europe Uh, you know Putin wanted Ukraine so he went took it. Yeah, right. So, you know Richter Keith Richter cone in the barbarian like I said, this is I can't analogize Besides what big means did with black mafia family and what? Lucky Luciano and Meyer lansky did with lakos and ostra. I can't think of Something as ambitious as what Keith Richter has Sparked uh from when he took over the the the pagans in late 17 and this all started to kind of be um Implemented in in 18 and it's it's incredibly Balzy It's you know, it's it's as brash and as bold of a of a plan as you could conceive And I don't think it's shocking that we've had bodies drop and like you're saying It undermines your your bottom line because now you're in the headlines and you have resources in federal government being shifted and pointed at you I don't know where it ends, but right now there's a lot of tension and and animosities brewing in the outlaw biker world around the country and I think I don't know the last time we were at The precipice that we're at right now in terms of pagans outlaws and And hell's angels with how they're all going to coexist Going forward. Yeah. Well, it's going to be interesting. We'll continue to monitor it and I know scott's reporting on it and I wonder what let me just point out one more thing. I was going to say here in in detroit. We we are We don't have a proper sample size because There are no hell's angels so we don't see how Hell's angels and outlaws interact because Hell's angels have never had a presence here in michigan That's a good. That's a really that's a really interesting point and Luckily, we don't have we don't seem to have those tensions here. We don't we have enough violence here in the city We don't need any more violence, but it seems to me like and you know better than I would that This is an example like I'm talking about the coexisting. It seems here like the outlaws the highwaymen the vigilantes They all seem to coexist. I'm not I'm not saying they love each other necessarily, but they seem to So coexistence seems possible, especially Um, maybe it's because it's a bigger city and there's more of the pie. I don't know You know what I mean? Like I wonder why high women have more Members in michigan than the outlaws. Yeah, it seems like the outlaws are more influential nationally. Yeah Yeah, we wrap it up. Yeah, so I mean it's interesting. We hope to bring you more Topics like this. I know scott will continue reporting on it And hopefully we'll get some guests too that can speak to this You know more guests that are actually part of that that world So, um anyhow, thanks for listening. Please again follow us on social media I'm jimmy butchillado scott Bernstein ben is in the house and thanks for listening. We'll see you next time