 As Nigeria's public debt surpasses 35 trillion Naira, calls for the cutting of cost of governance intensify even though the government spending only seems to be increasing. And the People's Democratic Party PDP expresses disbelief that the ruling APC has a hand in the attack of Justice Miri Adilis residents. For quite some time now, several stakeholders have advocated for a cut in the cost of governance. However, it seems the Nigerian government is only interested in amassing more debt as this has been on the increase in recent times. For instance, in 2022 the President's office will spend 1.6 billion Naira on new vehicles, the fourth largest of any government in office. Now that comes just a year after the office spent nearly half a billion on the same item. Also, personal cost has continued to rise yearly despite the government not conducting a major recruitment. In 2022 there are hopes that the government will spend 350 billion more on personal costs and 167 billion more than it did in 2021. Well joining us to discuss this is Ladik Per Johnson, he is a legal practitioner, Kofi Bertels is a broadcast journalist and Richard F. Inoyo is a financial analyst. Thank you very much gentlemen for joining us. Thank you, good evening. Great. I'm going to start with you Richard because we're talking about lots of money here and you know it's very interesting because there seems to be a case of inflation that has not been explained so far to us as Nigerians but then we see the government spending billions on vehicles and this is barely a year after they had done so. Now we're cash trapped government, we all know that the government in the country is facing money problems we've been borrowing and we know that the government is trying everything in its power to you know make sure that they meet all of their budgets except for the fact that they're most interested in buying cars and I'm wondering if we're borrowing money to you know fund our budgets why spend that same money that we're looking for on expensive vehicles? Well let me start by saying I don't even think the issue is the cars they are budgeting for basically because over the last as in five years plus we've spent about five billion on cars that's not where my concern is the major concern I have right now is not about the cars the major concern I have is in the area of software for instance we're spending close to about 19 billion Naira on software that simply means we're spending close to about 10 times even while we're spending on cars and that should call for concern okay so the car I think it's just something that leaders tends to tends to do because they won't want to use any car that is older than that six months or nine months or a year but when you're looking to the fact that as a country where we're calling for so much as in cuts in administrative costs we're seeing a president telling us that they're going to spend 19 billion Naira on software the question would have been what kind of software do we need okay that we have to spend 19 billion Naira for these are things I believe that Nigeria is supposed to focus on not necessarily on the car for me 1.6 billion for cars go start but I know for sure that there's no way any presidents especially the one we have in Nigeria would want to drive one particular car or fuel serve cars but it but as much as as much as you're playing down on it it's it's one point something billion Naira that could have been put in health care it's one point something billion Naira that could have been put in education and you're playing down on it so I'm wondering how important is that cat to the president as opposed to the health of people in areas where there are waterborne diseases or for example um you know health posts that are no longer working which one should be prioritized over which well I agree with you we're not running from the fact that the policy itself angers my endurance don't get me wrong but I'm saying that even though the entire country's focus on cars for 1.6 billion Naira I'm thinking that as a country we're supposed to also shift our such light to solve to it across the country 19 billion Naira that is hooch for me I don't care what the president want to tell Nigerians when it gets to the point where we have to spend up to 19 billion for software it's raised concern so the truth here is that what we've seen over the years is the lack of sincerity the lack of focus the lack of parity on the part of this government so this government seems not to care about the feelings seems not to care about its sensitivity that Nigerians bring to the fore when it comes to issue of budgeting and let me put it to you clearly even this 1.6 billion is an indication that what we have in Nigeria is not evidence based budgeting rather what we have is just few sort of persons allocating national reserve to themself in the name of budgeting and that's for me something that we all need to look into why we are also calling for as in the president's as a short restraint on what the president spend on food on food and all the expenses I used to think Nigerians this to start raising issues and raise a question around software that costs this country 19 billion Naira. All right very important point that you picked out Richard I'm going to come back to you for more analysis but I'm coming to you Kofi because you are a journalist and one of the responsibilities of journalists is to you know pick these holes or find out these important parts of our budget and bring it to light for example Richard is saying that the 1.6 billion is not as important as the 19 billion under the subhead of you know software and these are areas that we should be questioning but again how many people are really interested or even have the knowledge about what's happening within the budget we hear about the budget hearings the presentations that are being made but the average Nigerian is worried about the price of food in the market the the price of gas that might be 10,000 Naira next year and all the other simple things so which Nigerian other than you and I and a couple of us who are interested in what's happening within the budget would be questioning all of these things under these ambiguous subheads the middle class the middle class that has continued to keep quiet in the face of several injustices in Nigeria are the ones who are aware I mean no somewhat argue there's an absence of of a real middle class in the sense of the word in Nigeria but you know what I mean these are people who have a university degree is that people who drive a car to work and have an office job or have a business they own these are people who pay for their monthly subscriptions and different things like this at least people know what this means and these are the people like you and I who should be speaking of about things like this I mean for a country that has consistently run a budget deficit since 2016 or 2015 Marianne you know they say you should not spend what you don't have live within your means Nigeria right now is like a man who is boring to find a lavish lifestyle it's a man who is saying give me money I need to pay for my my student's trophies please give me money I need to buy some food for the house and then all that then goes through a pub or a nightclub and spends it on Dorime that's what Nigeria is in right now so we need to speak up I mean 16.4 trillion nara budget for 2022 and you have a shuffle of more than six trillion nara a recurrent expenditure of more than four trillion nara meaning that for every 160 nara the government spends 16 nara will be borrowed and 14 nara will go to financing government operations for every 160 nara the government spends 16 nara will be borrowed and out of that 16 nara 14 nara will go to finance government operations I mean that that's more than 50 percent of what they're borrowing so in other words they're borrowing and the majority of what they're using which is out of 16 nara 14 nara is going to just fund the lifestyle of government you know so so whether it's software or whether it's vehicles the fact is that this government came into power in 2015 you know telling Nigeria this is what we need to know we need to cut down on government spending I remember the timing they were saying they were not going to even print stationary or government souvenirs and all that try and cut down on but but here we are it's it's spending with reckless abandon Nigeria is digging itself into a hole a hole that might will spell to me of course not taking for the future generations and the Nigerians who know what this means need to speak up Mr Johnson this is a president who promised that he was going to cut the cost of government for a president who preaches prudence a president who in his first tenure the very first few months he and his VP halved their salaries and we're asking other government officials to do same and we're in 2021 talking about lavish cars and ambiguous subheads in our budgets for a government that promised to fight corruption well what does this say about that government and where does this leave us as a country there are people who make a case that there's nothing wrong with borrowing yes there isn't anything wrong with borrowing but how do we spend that money and what does the future hold for the results of how we spend that money yes um it's um it's an unfortunate situation and um but um as um Kofi Bartels said the problem here is with the middle class um we have fallen asleep we're still asleep there is no electricity you decide to run your generator there's insecurity you decide to buy um guard dogs there's no water you dig your own uh boho and you think you're all right it's going to implode one of these days they cannot continue this way this government has failed to cut any costs not just the executive look at the legislature i'm i'm a member of the legal profession and you see how the judiciary spending money at the moment as well going for conferences overseas it's as if the naira hasn't fallen it's as if it isn't more expensive to do these things and they keep going on and on the three arms of government of course the two um guilty um arms of the legislature and the executive but the bottom line is that they will not stop um these governments the executive has shown that it lacks the will power to bring about the positive change it preached to the people i should say we preached to the people i was part of them at that time but there's been no positive change there's been change quite all right but everything's going southwards going down so look at the budget over the years just look at look at the um presidential bill and look at the budget head on uh copyright for instance and see what you've seen year in year out then you know that we're just uh it's just a joke so unless and we've reached the stage where you're borrowing to pay your recurrent expenditure pay for recurrent expenditure and about 70 percent of what have you god knows what we're spending on uh servicing our debts mr johnson is still there i think that we lost mr johnson briefly there but let me come back to you reach it quickly now there's an analysis um from the the tabloid premium times um i'd like to just quote them directly they're saying that the revenues um that we're getting as a country are simply inadequate to fund fundamental expenditure therefore every available fund should be spent with the greatest value for money um it has to be tied to high level national policy framework and aimed at improving livelihoods it's also saying that um it has to be something that would grow the economy reduce poverty and inequality um and and this this is something that we don't see happening so um if the monies are not being targeted in those areas what do we do because again you're talking about the second class um citizens um even though we may not necessarily the difference between that class and you know the the people who are in the third class of people who were poor um but then how do we get those people in that cater to be able to speak up because yes they might be able to get by but for how long again it's dawning on all of us that things are getting worse so what do we do as a financial person as someone who's analyzing you know um the budgets year in year out someone who's looking at how um the inflation is rising and falling every single day how do we get people to jump on this conversation because it seems not even to be happening we just grumble on our coffee tables or on our breakfast tables or in beer parlors and that's it well well let me start by saying as a country we don't have ideology okay that's where it starts from we have ideology so what we have we just have political parties where people choose to join those political parties for specific interests they have so it's not necessarily because they have an ideology so as long as people have ideology you'll find difficult for them to even join the conversation or to lead specific conversations so that is where we are right now so how do you get people to basically start speaking up you have to create centers for ideology development you have to create centers for ethical consciousness you have to create a network of centers where people would be enlightened that way they come to realize why they need to speak up that's one two you need to also understand that we are currently in the police states this is a state where people are being killed people are being arrested just because they choose to speak up or because they choose to protest against the government where they feel the government policy is not in line with building the right future for Nigerians so the issue here is how do you guarantee safety of people speaking up that is another thing so they are set for institutional issues that we must pursue for address for you to get those pickups not as if people don't want to speak up but once you're done speaking up what happened next there's a country where we've seen mentally there's been murdered so all of these issues are there okay so if you're going to get them to speak up first you have to create a network of centers with different mandates and responsibility to enlightening and to build consciousness in the lives of Nigerians that's one two you also need to look for a way to ensure security of people and you cannot get done without making emphasis on human right perfection freedom of the press and expounded civic society so it all boils down to taking what I call the long walk okay to building the right infrastructural as a system that allows people to be able to get their voice heard I appreciate I appreciate how you roll this out Richard I appreciate how you rolled all of this out you try to talk about the problems and the solutions but then when you say we we we who's we because the power unfortunately lies at the center and just as you said people have been killed because they spoke up so all of these beautiful ideas that you're rolling out who's the we that's going to implement it because I cannot ensure security I can only ensure security for myself and that's limited to where I go what I say and what I do so when you say we are we taking the responsibilities of governments and security agencies on ourselves or what exactly do you mean the truth here if you listen to the prime minister I'd be amid of utopia is this is recently and he said that citizens in utopia need to pick up arms to protect themselves because they have been faced okay by the extensive threat of variable coming to their country though I don't know if that is true or for us a respect to those who come into the country but a pomegranate has that that man basically made it clear the citizen should protect themselves when their life is threatened but it's not the job of the citizens to but it's not the job of the citizens to protect themselves prime minister abe amid took an oath of office promising which is his number one responsibility to protect the lives of his citizens now there's a war in t gray for those who do not know what is happening in t gray is obviously what's spilling over and the tplf is trying to spread its tentacles but that's a man made problem not necessarily something that the people of Ethiopia should be taking arms to protect themselves it's a political issue that needs a political solution I agree I agree with you have come into a particular as inside of the conversation and that is the side of self-defense basically we're in a country right now where people have been murdered in cross over states we've had several kidnappings so the issue has that even while we're hoping that government will leave off to one of its responsibility of ensuring security it still buys down to how do you defend yourself when you face okay with trade of life so I believe that the citizen mind dreams as a whole must recognize three things one they must recognize that the citizens it is in their interest to produce governments and that is one of the responsibility of citizen unfortunately in this country people are not so much interested in how we produce our leaders if you look at the statistics out there irrespective of those who come out of votes it's covered at the town over it's always low there's one two it's also very important to realize that when government fails to live off to sudden responsibility and when you know that your life might be threatened in the process it calls upon your own human instincts to find a way to protect yourself so my experience was learned okay to figure out ways to ensure their security right calling on government to do the right thing okay but unfortunately we're still dealing with what I call go ahead yeah I was waiting for you to land because I mean this is a conversation that we have to have on another day but I want to quickly go to the the other guest so that we can wrap this up but thank you Richard um Kofi I'm coming back to you and but you know just taking up from where Richard stopped um we have somewhat become a government for ourselves we grade our own roads and sometimes tar them and just like Mr Johnson said you dig your own borehole you produce you provide your own lights you we've even gone beyond buying generators now to getting inverters because we need light and we need to be able to sustain our businesses where governments and thoughts also come to harass you so it's we've become a government to ourselves somewhat but um have we gotten to a point of fatigue have we resigned to fate could that also be responsible for the reason why we're not necessarily screaming at the top of our voices anymore we just keep managing if we're pushed to the wall we just create some more space within the wall and stay there so is that where we are because there's some some lethargic reaction to government issues these days yes indeed um you know when you keep you keep complaining about the same thing over and over and over again you keep shouting about the same thing over and over over again at some point you will get you'll get tired at some point you just get exhausted and at some point you give up I mean Nigerians have been shouting about several things for some years now and those things have not changed and um yeah some sort of fatigue has set in some sort of um tiredness has set in it's normal as far as human beings are concerned you know um so you know typical thing for you know uh someone on the street to say will be or in a beer palace somewhere on a radio station so not them not their way not so them be you know not so politicians be leave them make them do their thing at Derek you know I mean the president this is this travel to um at least at least um seven major cities in six countries in the last eight weeks and this is meant to be a country where you have uh budget deficit since 2015 and by the way one of your guests was asking what is the you know was a debt service you know uh uh figure and all that well in 2021 the amount of money Nigeria made from crude oil sales or was expected projected to be from crude oil sales is this exact amount of money uh or just about the same amount of money Nigeria was meant to use to service its debt you know so it basically means that the nation is making nothing from crude oil sales which is basically uh zero so I think fatigue has set in but that is where we need to have voices voices to stand up and govern nice Nigerians people just need someone just in one person two people three people look at the answers protest people were at home until they saw certain persons on the streets and then they came out to all right they came out to so we need to have voices unfortunately the leading opposition party in Nigeria being the PDP is really not um you know any difference from what we're seeing uh from the the current incumbent administration right now they are basically the same most of the political parties and the politicians you have on the opposition aisle of of of the Nigerian political system are the same you know and that's why it's easy for them to cross cut it otherwise the opposition politicians and political parties should have been the ones on the tail of government but they're not doing that so Nigerians need need a voice you need some person some intellectuals or intelligentsia people who know what to do like uh the great philosophers of old said to stand up and speak people have the interest of the country at heart and um when these people stand up and speak and and and and rally people um people rise up and also follow them as well interesting uh mr johnson over to you sarah civil society organizations even individuals have over the years challenged some of the questionable spendings of government especially under this administration uh day in day out especially stirrup it's they're always in the news you know challenging this or that um even down to the political parties asking that they make their finances open um but most of these cases and these suits you know just pile up and nothing really comes off it so the question again is um where does the judiciary you know come in in all of this because you know uh when i was on the radio you'd hear lots of people say oh that's the last hope of the common man but is that really still a hope for the common person well well it is um and we pray that it continues to be because the moment the common man has no hope then the man the common man takes to the streets and the first people who will suffer are the middle classes because we leave amongst them it will take them a while to get to koi i assure you the time they get to koi the police will be there but look at what happened with the ensigns those that were in jack on day just went across and dealt with the shop rides and everything in the area the middle classes have to realize that it behoves on us to make sure to make certain that we do not get tired that we're not fatigued that we continue to talk we continue to speak and as kofi said it takes a few good men and women that it doesn't you don't need the the whole uh country or whole community no no no no it takes a few people to bring about the change and um we just have to begin to work towards that begin to organize it's all about organize you have to get people going talking to them bring people with different interests together and let them realize that cutting corners might be good for you as an individual but overall it brings down the country if you cannot do the small or little things the right way the big things will not fall into place it's not it's not magic and finally um i always call Nigeria organized chaos sorry yeah yeah before before before the network disconnected i was going to add something quickly we have also seen the disobedience of court orders you know over and over again and the biggest story in the news is the attack on the justice number three you know in in the country again it takes me back to the question i asked earlier on how empowered how independent how strong is the Nigerian judiciary as we speak in today's Nigeria under the Bahari administration can we really be sure that if we decide today to say we as the people are challenging this government to court on this and that that those cases will see the light of day just quickly coming i think the only thing we have is that's the only thing we have we have to keep up a life but i believe that the judiciary the way it's constituted is open to all kinds of control from the executive maybe we have to actually reinvent our judiciary in such a way that how we end up having judge in our courts and how we end up having the supreme court justice maybe we can get them to pay election and not necessarily appointments if we achieve that maybe we may just be able to have stronger judiciary from what we currently have because as long as they are not independent in respect to how they emerge and lead the courts there is no way they wouldn't be under the wings and capricies of the executive that's one but most importantly Nigerians must continuously ask for stronger institutions by putting government on the prejural to ensure that our institutions work better and efficiently to deliver the justice we need our citizens all right quickly coffee as we wrap up a vanguard newspaper journalist got missing it took a whole row for even the national assembly to speak of it and they were still i remember watching the last time i saw anything from the national assembly the speaker was saying we're still investigating we'll see what we can do there was nothing really serious being done and then all of a sudden his body was found dead obviously and we've also seen all kinds of you know darts thrown in the direction of the the you know the media knowing that again they're the fourth estate they're the ones who put supposedly to create the platforms for people to have these conversations and of course question the government do you see the media also experiencing some fatigue or is the media growing and getting more strengths and more information to speak up about these things or have they also joined the second class well i mean the media is part of Nigeria you know the media is a sector in the country and so whatever affects Nigeria or Nigerians affects the media but i wouldn't say that the media drop the ball or has fatigue over this issue because i mean whenever a journalist is affected by a negative situation we see that other media houses other people you know journalism profession are able to rally together to demand for action we've seen the Nigerian union of journalists in particular taking the lead as well as other journalism you know associations for instance those from the middle belt and banner and stage and all that coming together to to speak about this this story has had a coverage in the media so i don't think we we have as a collective section of the Nigerian you know nation you know any apathy or any fatigue no no no we've been talking about this but of course as human beings you know you would get tired you get worn out but we've been talking about this every now and then when something happens to a member of media fraternity we wake up i mean in my case when i was brutalized by officers of the Nigerian police who were working for the as well as you know media organizations around the country stood up you know in the case of the wazubi effing presenter who was kidnapped in pothakot he was over the place so at least this one's wakers up if at all go to sleep and i think that the coverage hasn't been that bad but well it time will tell whether the story of being told is believable or not we're watching they were speaking well i want to say thank you laddie putt johnson is a legal practitioner unfortunately his connection went tough kofi batels is a broadcast journalist and um richadinoio is a financial analyst thank you very much gentlemen for being part of this conversation thanks for having me thank you we'll take a quick break when we return the pdp believes the apc has a hand in the attack of justice mary or dilley's residents we'll talk about this stay with us