 Thank you for staying with us. You're still watching The Breakfast on Plus TV Africa and right now it's time for Off the Press where we take the global stories making headlines in our national dailies and joining me Joining us to have a conversation is Chris K.D. Wandoo He's a member of the Chatted Institutes of Abitrators in the UK joining us from Lagos States. Good morning, sir Thank you for joining us Because I love the energy. All right, we're going to be talking about the papers this morning and we'll be starting with the Guardian and now the leading story here says 198,432 pending court cases leave many in jail Businesses stranded. So this is talking about the slow justice system in Nigeria. What did you take? It's a big concern to a lot of us especially those of us in the legal profession It's a very, very big concern Mostly you go to most of the prisons We see that close to 60 to 70 percent of those in prisons are those are waiting trial and that has become a big problem And a big issue as it were. Yes, I started by saying that those are very fundamental problem those of us in the legal profession Where you see the number of people are waiting trial It becomes a big issue if you go to the case if you go to the prisons You come to realize that close to 60 to 70 percent of people in the prisons are those are waiting trial Yeah, or even minor offenses very very minor offenses. You see somebody just Just for minor theft or just some insubordination Minor cases that you realize that most of them are not supposed to be there. There are issues with that one is because of the number of Judges we have at both a global, middle and upper courts Then it's always very difficult for them to be dispensed Then too is also the course by legal practitioners like course You know the way to delete issues won't argue this way But at the end of it, we come to realize that the first thing that does no matter how bad the case is, it has to be argued Then you see that Another aspect of it is that some of these issues That is why we continue to advocate for what we call ADR, Autonomy Dispute Resolution Which is being put in place Yes, the Autonomy Dispute Resolution is a mechanism where certain issues can be taken to Dispute Resolution Committees and rest of them If I have a problem with my landlord If that doesn't meet the need, why do I have to go to court and go to all this issue of argumentary Or we can just go to the ADR and get to resolve And within 24 hours that issue can be resolved On that day or month If you cannot, we thank you today So then so that we have serious issues coming to the courts And that has always been the case So that is why you are having this high case I will tell you for free that if you go to Nigerian places There are some people that have been granted pay as well As less as 10,000 Naira for them to perfect their pay They cannot be able to perfect their pay and remain in prison That is how bad it is Then also at times, even the judges are not making the job easier Because when you are set a very high bill conditions Some of the people cannot meet this bill Bring somebody on level 13, bring somebody on level 15 Bring their land property So it is a whole picture of the system So I just believe that It is not how it is done across the globe We have to find a way to meet So that some issues can be ironed as quickly as possible And we are just as dispensed as we are And this lead to that is also If you know the number of people on death rule in Nigeria So many people are sentenced to death for whatever reason I know that across the globe This education that death sentence is out of It is not a norm Rather you just give a long sentence But even in advanced countries like United States Death sentence is still going So what are the why you are having this And you know why the problem with this There is a prison that has the capacity to have about 2,000 prisoners But at the end of the prison you have about 10,000 people there And that is why you still have this jailbreak Every land jailbreak jailbreak Those are the fundamentals as to where A jailbreak I hear one about the jailbreak in other countries In Haiti or somewhere Yes And obviously because when you are seeing a lot of numbers like this This is 100 and something thousand You don't even want that Because that is why I was going to ask So what is the role of the arbitration act in Nigeria Because I would want to believe that The reason why that is there Is to ensure that it's only the serious cases That you know go to the courts But if you are having 190 something And a chunk of that would actually be petty cases then But the ADR also will have to be mined by people Do we have the manpower to do that For arbitration For everything that we need to do Because if you are talking about ADR You just talked about ADR So ADR has to be mined By lawyers All arbitrators in Nigeria You go to school for that They don't have to be mined by lawyers No, no, no ADR doesn't have to be mined by lawyers Because there are people that You go to school for it Yes People with unquestionable characters Can adjugate in the area of matters And even to make it easier Negotiate how what is called the mediation center Except how what is called the mediation center Is part of the states So that mediation center Is a department of the Ministry of Justice In legal states What they just have mined They don't collect money from you Do you know that they don't collect money They don't collect money from you You go there, state your case Then the other person will be invited And you just sit down And look at the issues that are Once you have agreed on the terms That's it Let me not talk about the money collection I mean That might be on paper But we don't know about that Let me land on that Let me land on that I'm talking like somebody who is a law graduate That is one Two, and I also talked about somebody who had been a participant In this issue I wasn't there, I'm not even read But when I started having had issues And we took it, I'm telling you that Not one, but one chance It has been said the issue of money And that is the problem that For legal states, I don't know of other states I'm telling you But let me ask you this question You talked about Bill being less than 10,000 And some people can't pay, which is true But at what point Is bill supposed to have Money attached to it They keep telling us bill is free So at what point No, that one Is police, I'm not talking about Police is a different Pokemon Police will tell you that Don't pay for bill But I've never seen any police station That allow people to go home On bill, they call them money That one is basic No matter how many duties Once you enter a police station Which is why I'm sure One of the papers I met yesterday to talk about No more POS And the use of POS A police station Or police station across the country I'm not to enforce that I'm not able to do that Because everybody says it's not in the police station Are you sure that they don't have POS Somebody would be here Sometimes They have other operators That they work with Who has no name attached Having to see Checkpoints Collecting that One person Checkpoint They go back And they shoot the police Let's move to another headline Let's combine these two Federal government to begin Grants distribution insist Warehouse looting criminal Beyond hunger And then the other one down there Still on the guidance Looting food warehouse Reflection of hunger Frustration Of Nigerians So this is what is going on The federal government has a game I'm using a game and almost shouting Said that Grants will be distributed to Nigerians That's on the one hand And now we are seeing trucks Warehouses being looted Even one of the places that was looted The greens Were almost going bad I think Nema office or something like that The greens were almost going bad These greens are there People are suffering People that the greens were directed to Possibly were suffering I'm not justifying looting and all that What do you think about this Government has said they are going to distribute Greens and it will curb inflation It will make food available And all the reasons that they have given What's your take What do we want On this programme Let's start with agitation The second one was protests Now it has moved to this So a looting of warehouses A hungry man is an aggrim I totally condemn The act of capitalizing The loot warehouses As it were Because some of these warehouses are also compiled By individuals, Nigerians They can live in But the fact is that what we are expressing now is more than hunger. What we are expressing now is what akin to a war situation. This is exactly what is going on in the war between Gaza and the Palestinians and Israelis. You've seen in the past few days where Palestinians were stampeded and they died and some were shot. Why? Because there are very good trucks bringing reflip materials from Egypt and going into Gaza. I think people are so hungry that they drop on this truck. In fact, the westerns, in particular, some trucks have to climb. Climb people that are trying to get some of these food items to eat. And most of them died, over 100 died, about 3 or 5 days ago in Gaza. They're begging back to Nigeria. That is the true situation. That's what we call this to say that what the government is trying to do is no work. I said it the last week. I said we are leaving Hedek and run after and try to treat Lackalakbar. You know what Lackalakbar is called in Europe? Dandruff. That is not the solution to the problem. When you say, oh, we will reserve a career, how many grays we have? How many people will you get? Even when you release it to the state or not, they pass it on to their party members and both of them get to sell it. So that is the last solution. You see the looting is going on. It is not just... Even yesterday, it was good. And let me even mention what you said about some of these so-called results. In particular, I think it was during Covid also, where a big government house was open and you see thousands and quarters of food items and most of them are gross points. I think it was never announced that... I actually said, why do you keep all these things? Is there no wickedness? Instead of sending it and distributing it to people to look at things, they say they are keeping it for disaster. Disaster. And in particular, what I say is that I think there should be a... will you still look at the issue of this distribution? But that is not the problem. Just as I said that the distribution of 10,000 or 15,000 or 15,000 to certain individuals is not the solution to the problem. It is just a way of being one. The only issue is that those face the fundamentals. How do we grow food? How do we get the farmers to go back to the farm? And those are the issues. The former minister of agriculture and current president of the African Development Bank has also said that monetary tools cannot solve food crisis. Yes, food crisis. He's insisting that. And I don't know, maybe you buy the same idea as him. He was there and I tell you in his time, I can say for a fact, I don't know whether that went on underground, but as a minister of agriculture, everything was working. He had a system. All the inputs got to the farmers and everything. And I don't know, as soon as he left, the next government just jettisoned that and that was it. There's no continuity. So he's saying that monetary tools cannot solve this problem of price crisis. We are just here processing what I said. I say it will not. It will not. But let us take it. How many people get this money? How many people? How many? Where's the register? Well, if we move over to the punch, a small headline on the top says the African Development Bank plans $2.7 billion budget at Greek loans for Nigeria. So maybe this might just do something. If it's not going to go to the government, if they pass it to the government, we are going to face the same problem. You go to the minister of agriculture, the minister of farm sector and all the directors who share the money among themselves, and that is where it ends. We should find a way of identifying who these farmers are and try to reach them directly. I think that is the best way to go about it. Try to reach them directly. The way forward to me as a landowner is to make a nice family. Make a nice family. I'm telling you, if you have a good one, make a nice family. I can tell you that maybe 100 make a nice farmers probably can feed Nigeria. Go to the United States and when you travel to the US, you will see a Bahamini 20, 30 kilometers of land, farm, make a nice. You see tractors moving there and the rest of them and that is ideal. And they have them to produce. In Nigeria, we see the mechanized, you go to your village and the first thing is you are reaching the place, it's nice to go one by one. You see them, they carry home, put it by their shoulder and go to the farm. And you ask yourself, how many can they do? How many do? Not only that, the level of insecurity, most of them can't do because if they go there, they either kidnapped or killed by bandits. So the higher level of insecurity is also a problem. When they finally produce, you can see that even those produce cannot be resolved. Before you bring them from my brother's aspect of course, I bring them to Lagos. He knows what to do in Kost. The road is bad. He knows what I'm talking about. You have not talked about even the settlement of policemen because there are roadblocks up to a thousand from Kostuva to Lagos. Yes, your place is not there for producing. I'm sticking to you because you're a homeboy. Yes, it's not there for producing. Yes, I do that very well. Now ask yourself, what level of incentive has God made giving people in your village people to produce? No. And that is the problem. I want you to see every day, the minister of the budget is 100 billion from us. They will go as far as borrowing money from World Bank and the rest of them. The money is not getting to the right people. And that is where we are. And you got to say that you are going to control prices of how you control prices of food items in what way. So if the African development bank is going to do anything about it, I think that you should find a way of making sure that you reach the final consumer, the farmers, the net farmers, not just passing it to government and then share it. At the end of the day, I need to sell every end of the money to the government here. Government will share it, convert it to dollars and that will be the end of the story. All right, let's move over to some financial matters. There's a small headline at the bottom that says banks involved in 70% of financial crimes and that's been said by the EFCC. What do you think? I agree with them. You see, it can be more than that. How do you perpetuate fraud with that bank? Is it possible? One, is the bank. Two, is the fintechs. Three, is what you call it, the telecom companies. Because when they pick up, most of these days, it's not skyrocketing. That is why somebody will pick you up, pick up on and call you. I don't know the person. I didn't manage to get my number. I'm calling from Sousa Sousa Bank. You know, I can't do Sousa Sousa Sousa. We have just realized that we need to send your name in and this and that. I totally agree with the banks and also the telecom companies. And we're not holding these people responsible. If I lose any money in my accounts, I have the right to sue the telecom company and also sue the bank. Most often you know what they tell you. Oh, you must have misplaced your ETF card. Oh, you must have given somebody your PIN number address. I would like to give somebody my PIN number. The ETF card that is in my pocket. I would like to give it to you. Is it possible? You just give anybody. Oh, you compromise. I do not compromise. Do I have the right to your system? Do I get it? So, and that is what has been happening. So, I think it's high time that consumer protein, and that is why you have also agencies of prometanol to do their job. What is the work of the consumer protection agents at the federal and state level? Why can't I go to federal protection, consumer protection and say, Sousa Sousa Bank, 30,000 is missing from my account. This bank have taken it. How do I recover? And you say, okay, fine. Where is the bank? Time there. And they write the bank and ask them to refund that money within 20 hours if they don't, which we are going to get to. It will make all of them to be helped as well. I cannot be helped for compromising for the compromise of your system. I cannot be helped responsibly. So, I totally agree with you that most of the fraud are perpetrated. Let me come across your book. You realize that some of that money at the minister of monetary affairs was mistakenly transferred 39 billion. My people. 39 billion. I must say 39,000. I must say 39,000. That mistakenly transferred 39 billion to her personal hand. Without the ornaments of the bank, we should do it. True. Because funny enough, I was going to say that most times, there's some monies that would hit your account and the bank would probably freeze that money when you make a call to them. So, they keep it. In that time, why can't they allot the certain agencies such as the EFCC that, okay, we need to trace this money to be sure that this money, it came from the right source or what the money is used for. Because this even happened to me recently. I got an alert and I had to call the bank because the money would not drop. So, I would see it, but it wasn't there in my book balance. And then they were questioning me, what do you want to use this money for and all of that. So, why are the banks not, you know, taking that, especially when it comes to fraudulent activities like this? I hear also that even banks, sometimes... Sometimes the bank... That huge email, you know what I mean? That huge and a lot. No, no. Thank you for that observation. Thank you for that observation, please. I only say that for the purpose of this question. Thank you, Chris. Thank you for that. Yes, they got the price, I didn't tell them. But anyway, all just... Oh, it burned. Yes, but this person, I think they wouldn't be in the EFCC Act. It was stated that any amount is in the bank window. I think from the opening window, that the bank ought to inform EFCC about it so that it can give reason. If I have to state where you got that money and what it meant for, but the banks wouldn't follow that. They would not follow that at all. They wouldn't. Because they just needed the money and they don't care where it comes from. So, on the basis of government, and that is why I've never seen, I've never seen, I mean, a police ward unit. Once you just notice that, apart from those who open the person, somebody is responsible. You must also hold the bank's responsibility because it's been told that before you can move certain amount, the EFCC must be informed. They should inform the EFCC. When this person is making a transaction of 50 million, 100 million, 200 million to Alacantan and the rest of them. If no, why didn't you do that? Those are fundamental issues to be raised. But I still believe that there are many issues. This connivance, anybody can perpetrate any fraud in the bank without the connivance of somebody in the bank. Go and check it. There is no way. There is always an insider. It's just like in those days of robbing the banks, although it has stopped now. You remember those days? You see that Amrobus reform and rob the bank. When they arrest, you see that some of the people that got arrested are people working in that bank who gave those Amrobus, those leads, the bank who gave that money here. We even know that some banks, sometimes we've had stories where people die and they leave their money in the bank. Maybe they didn't have a clear understanding of what the next of kin should be and nobody came. They would just take it. They wouldn't say anything. They wouldn't say anything. They wouldn't say anything. They wouldn't declare it. What's your point? Forget that one. Forget that one. They make a kid out of that. And that is why I think that they should have been a bit more flexible when you say your nest of king. Once you have a relative that dies, most of them that nuts, about close to 60-70% the money they pay that person that bank forgets it. Because they'll push three jents, three jents, three jents, three jents laws into that it will make what can make it impossible. So they just go have that money and use it for that. You know the money in the bank that belongs to some people, some people can do that and when we can assess it, it will be short. Well, let's move to the nation newspaper and take just one headline before we move to the next newspaper. Government takes minimum wage talks to Nigerians in zones. I don't know what you think about this. NLC is talking, they are not even talking to NLC. They are taking it to the zones to talk to who. I'm just asking, what do you think about this? I really don't understand what is going on. They are taking the minimum wage talks to Nigerians in zones. I would expect the dialogue should be with NLC. NLC is trying to strike even. Let me tell you. Some people have budgeted money to do this. It's a way of making money. They call that the budgetary allocation. You cannot just put it in the zone. Some people don't want to put it in the zone cleaner as well. After taking it to the zone, do you know the thing they will do? They set up a committee to look at the report. When they say that the committee should look at the report, that committee will submit. They are not submitting. They are not set up another committee to look at the report of the committee that was set up and we continue going that way. That has just been unnecessarily un-serious on the part of those that are behind it. You have a label that is negotiating with you. You are just saying that you are not doing the right thing. What you are doing is just going around and going around. And I've said in time with that number. For me personally, I think we should just centralize the issue of salary payment. State should be allowed. The federal government should be controlling what it should be paid. State should be allowed to pay what they can to their workers. Because I said in time with that number, that even the $30,000 that was agreed, over a cost of $15,000, $18,000, $10,000 can be paid. And what are you talking about? Now the NSC is coming to say that they want one million Naira, one million which are we serious at all. The government should get serious. There should be an amendment probably to the law. If there is an insistence on that, it is only the federal government that can face minimum wage. No, that should be decentralised. States should be able to agree what they can pay. They are the ones that do all that. So if I give you a letter of appointment that says I'm going to pay you $30,000 Naira at the end of the month, you cannot satisfy, then you say no. Local government should also be allowed to pay what they can pay. You cannot be a state legal state with so much resources. What do you call it? Remastered or biased or apart from state? Or even a state of cross-strait analyse, making so much money for oil wells. Now should pay the same thing with the state is more... Cross-strait guys are not making money from oil wells. Oil wells were taken given to Cameroon and given to Aquibom. And I don't know why that happened. And we were no longer producing any oil. Even though I hear now that... I totally agree with you. We drop the ball with backers. So today we cannot forgive President Orson. For whatever it is. Yes, for whatever it is. Where he now... That is why initially, cross-strait guys used to be one of the highest ending states in the park. But if the cross-strait guys came and did for their Christmas, I handed over the... No, no, we are not at home. We are not at home with us. We don't bother. We don't set you. So why would you hand over a whole reach all these communities like Bacassi to Cameroon? At least it doesn't need it. But I think that's an instruction for another debate. What I'm saying is that it's your opinion, this minimum wage to the zones or whatever doesn't make any sense to me at all. He doesn't. All right. Let's move over to the daily trust. The leading headline says Caduceau wants Nigeria on debt risk. And the rider is federal government states all 139 trillion an era. And debt rose from 2.1 trillion to 87 trillion in 24 years. So that's talking about the government. But then moving over to a smaller headline on the top, it says private sector weak as economy declines by $44 billion in 2023. And that was being said by the Nigeria economic group summit. What do you think about all of this? We're all in debt, you know, from the government side. And then even the private sector is weak as well. As in aggression on the night of today, 2023, the president said that it's not going to be business as usual. That we're not going to take any notes. I'm sure you remember that, foreign loans for the foreign goods. Go and check how much these government have collected as low from foreign banks and the rest of them in the past nine months. You'll be shocked. And they continue to continue. So that is, you know, that's topical for me. You cannot see what's in that one break. I'm still doing on that in another break. It doesn't work like that. I'm saying that that is it. And you remember the knowledge I made last time I said, when I said, when you go broke, go party. No, but that's too much. You have to be careful. No, but that's too much. Because what am I here is the party I'm here for. Don't rip the cloth. You know that kind of thing. And that is wrong. That is wrong where we are with. Most of the policies our government is implementing is policies I need to virtualize my IMF and the work plan. They don't even care. They give you this money and they give you conditions. And that is, you have to follow it to the letter. And that is what we've seen that we have been having the possession of the Naira as it were. The Naira has been depreciated in the last one, two, three years to a way that a man that could not do it. It was the advice of the IMF. If you stop going to go, I don't have any problem with it because I've said it. Even United States of America go, even United Kingdom go, Russia does, and even established country. The difference between them and us is that why do they use this as a judicial mechanism? They can justify this. What do we use ours for? What do we use it for foreign groups? I'm talking of government. I'm not talking of you because at the end of it all, my sister and I remember telling me sometime ago that they say we are going as Nigeria that I am going 30,000 by those and no, I'm not winning it. No, we're going about 3,000 dollars or something. Mr. Chris, we are not owing. Maybe Yamgul is owing. Well, if you are buying food the way you should, you are eating the way you should and all that, then you are not owing. But if you are not getting the good things of life, if you are not getting the good life, it is because of that money you are not owing. Someone borrowed it, you are not owing but you are suffering it. So that's it. So I totally agree. The difference is that we will do less owing. We should fight even more for the innovative way of raising revenue. Our money is settled. Let us not depend on OEOH. That's yourself. How are these government trying to develop other sectors? How are these sectors? We are looking at the iron industry. We are looking at the other minerals. We are looking at gold. Nigeria is one of the most blessed land in the world. There is no state that doesn't have something that we can export in Nigeria. I'm telling you, no state. Look at what does the media money they are doing in Jaws, in other and the ocean and the rest of it. It is properly handled. That is not enough to give us a not foreign exchange. Tourism. Nigeria has some of the best tourism. We do everything. We go to Kenya. I want to go to there. We go to Kenya. We go to South Africa. Insecurity is a major problem. Insecurity. That's why we need to look at hand-to-hand in security. My daughter is a condom to revere to stay because that state, what you don't ignore, that cross-border is one of the richest states. What I mean is rich in everything. What you look at don't ask. Are they above in there? Wonderful. Wonderful. How better than the U.K. and the U.S.? What are we doing? All right, Chris. There are so many things to talk about. Even Abas and Jo has told us that if we want to fight inflation, we can borrow a leaf, go to Zimbabwe and find out what they did. Now we are still collecting grains from Ukraine that is fighting a war. When somebody says it's an embarrassment, they say it's political and all that. But we don't have time to discuss this. We'll leave it for another day. I would like to thank you for coming on the show this morning, Chris. Thank you. We're going to be talking now. No problem. Always a pleasure having you. You too, Chris. All right. We've been speaking with Chris Cain de Wando, is a member of the Chatted Institutes of Abitrators in the U.K. who is joining us from Lagos States. We'll go on a short break. When we return, we'll be looking at a hot topic. Please stay with us.