 My name is Nina Chinkel, and I'm a VP at Catalyst Opportunity Funds. And Jeremy Keele, who's a co-founder and managing partner at Catalyst, Jeremy and I co-curated this panel. And we spent a lot of time thinking about, obsessing about this panel because it's core to what Catalyst does. Catalyst is an impact real estate investing platform and we provide equity capital to community-driven real estate developers around the US, and specifically those focusing on projects in low to moderate income communities. So communities that have been traditionally overlooked and undercapitalized. And today the spotlight is on them. The spotlight is on them and the work that they do. They're the ones who are in these communities, local to these communities, in the dirt, building these projects. And so this is an opportunity to really showcase people who are largely underrepresented at conferences like this one. It's not every day that a group of folks like yourselves get to hear directly from community-driven developers like Kathy, Jake, and Tim. So we're really excited to make this connection. And the last thing I'll say by way of introduction is that Catalyst has a network of, you know, 50 to 60 community-driven real estate developers across the country. And as we were thinking about this panel, we really went through each one of them. You know, would he be good? Would she be good? Would they be good? And we hand selected the three that we thought were the best in the country. So this is a really great, great group to hear from. So I'm delighted to be introducing on my left Kathy Rainis. Kathy is the founder and CEO of Coase Development, which is a social impact development group based out of Seattle. They've been in operation for just under 10 years. Sorry, I'm like looking in this direction with the mic, so please don't feel executed. Speak up. Sure. Yes. Please give me that feedback. So they are an affordable housing and social impact developer based in Seattle, better. They've been in operation for just under 10 years but have 25 projects under their belt. So have been incredibly prolific in their work. Kathy has a long and illustrious career, but prior to founding Coase was most recently the CEO of a regional bank in the Seattle area. So really strong ties in that community. Next to Kathy is Jake McKinstry. Jake is a principal at Spectrum Development Solutions. Jake is also based in Seattle, so two Seattle based developers on the panel today. Spectrum is an institutional grade community development group. And Jake has spent his entire career in community development and affordable housing. He started in New York City, which is my hometown, and then made his way back to Seattle where he was born and raised. And lastly, certainly not least, is Tim Baylor, who's the founder and CEO of JADT Development Group. Tim is a small business owner. He's a community developer. We like to call him a pillar of his community. He's a pillar both in stature, he's very tall, as well as figuratively. And we also think we can guarantee he's the only former NFL player on the stage at SOCAP this year. So really happy, delighted to have you guys. This is a little bit of a different format. So what we've asked the panelists to do is give us one case study. So to really drill down into one project that they feel particularly proud of, and that exemplifies some of the social impact themes and strategies that we're talking about. And we're going to start with Kathy on my left, and with a project that Catalyst is an investor in called COS on MLK. Good morning. Can you hear me? Yeah. Okay. I've never been accused of being quiet. I didn't expect I would be today, but just want to make sure those of you down at that end of the building can hear me. Thank you for including us, including me in this conference today. This is an amazing forum, amazing group of individuals, and I'm really, really honored to be here with all of you. We have spoken together as a panel one other time, and I will tell you that I asked to go first that time because I had studied their projects and I had heard their stories and again asked to go first this time because there's nothing worse than following amazing speakers. Thank you again for having me. I'm sharing with you COS on MLK today, and I'm just curious if there's anybody in this room that is from the Seattle Tacoma area or has ever spent any time in that area in Washington besides Jake. Yes. So those of you who are from the area, you know back in the 80s and 90s, the hilltop area in Tacoma was a very gang-ridden area, and I say that with the utmost of seriousness. I lost there once on limited gas and was really afraid for my life back during that time frame. And you can see because of that that the statistics, the income statistics and the poverty statistics have kind of carried through to, you know, the year 2020 and that's what we're seeing today. And so as a developer, we were looking for a third project in Tacoma. We have two other projects in Tacoma, and both of those projects combined are about 260 units that area median income rents in those units are right around 60 to 65%. And we have a relationship with the local housing authority whereby in those units we house homeless and housing insecure college students. And I share that because with that came a really terrific relationship with the city of Tacoma and with the Tacoma Housing Authority. And I believe it's that relationship along with our relationship with Catalyst that has allowed us to move into this project that we have before you today. So one of the things we first identified when we identified this location, this was a project that we had to bid on. So the city of Tacoma went out to a number of developers. One of the first things that we identified was really a lack of services up on the hilltop. So going to the hilltop five years ago, which is actually when we started this project, you would have seen really a project or a neighborhood that was in transition. So we decided to go ahead and take the opportunity to be alongside a low income senior housing developer, the first new housing development in that area in the last 50 years. So went ahead and bid on the project. We were awarded the project in the city of Tacoma because of our previous relationship with them. Brought that project to market in May of this year and had the most successful lease up of any project that we have had in the history of COS, which was I'm going to tell you really surprising for us and incredibly refreshing for us that this neighborhood had really embraced this brand new community. We were able to put this project together really because of a partnership, and it was a partnership with the city of Tacoma, but it was and continues to be a terrific relationship with Catalyst and that fund and that group of individuals. And so a little bit about that, what that relationship did and those individuals that Catalyst did was gave us the freedom to really focus on services and families in that community. So very intentionally and methodically worked with Catalyst in the city of Tacoma to seek retail tenants that were much needed in the area. The hilltop in Tacoma didn't have financial services. Worked with the city and Catalyst to enter into a lease with a local credit union that not only focuses on obviously providing deposits and loans, but they also very much focus on lending to low income individuals and you're talking car loans and house loans and that type of credit that is very much needed with that demographic. We also, again thanks to the relationship with the city and our partners Catalyst, were able to work with the community to put a very large mural on the side of our building and it was a mural that was created by a local artist who had grown up in that community and I share that because that was very, those moves were very, very meaningful to the community itself and I believe that that's part of the reason we had so much success in leasing up the building is because we were able to provide them services that they were lacking and because we were committed to tying our community into their historical community and then I'm just really quickly going to close with a quote because I've never done this in under five minutes and it's a quote from one of our residents at the building and they had written a Google review and this is a resident that had to leave the hilltop community because they couldn't afford to live there any longer, moved out to the city of Spokane, really didn't like it there, it wasn't where they were raised, they didn't feel like they belonged there and were told by a local community member about this new project so they were able to move back, live in a two-bedroom that they could afford comfortably which again they couldn't before and this is the quote that they provided in a Google review which warmed my heart so as I can afford a two-bedroom apartment that I couldn't afford to do so before without the business beliefs of co-development making rent affordable it's going to be a huge help to be near public transit and all of the neighbors are incredibly friendly this neighborhood was in desperate need of affordable housing and COS made that happen and I would say COS made that happen along with the city, along with probably most importantly a catalyst because as you all know you can't offer affordability without an investor group that supports that Thank you Kathy just to underscore something, so the ground floor space that Kathy's talking about where there's a co-op grocer and there's a community credit union there and that happened not because it's easy to do but really through this kind of virtuous, iterative, collaborative process between COS development catalyst and the mayor's office of Tacoma of really trying to dig deep and a lot of times people use that ground floor space for just a little lobby for the tenants or a gym and Kathy really took that a step further and saw that people in her community didn't have access to healthy, nutritious food and so she spent a good amount of time sourcing a healthy food grocer and was able to bring that in in the ground floor of the building and really kind of service the community and their needs there and then same goes for the credit union, this was a banking desert so people didn't have access to financial services and so we were able to really address that problem through thoughtful programming in that ground floor space so it's a really beautiful example of social impact development so Jake let's go to you and hear about Odessa Okay, thank you. Can everyone hear me at that end of the bowling alley? Good? Yeah Okay Yeah, thank you all for being here and really excited to share the stage with fellow panelists with Nina so thank you just real quick overview on Spectrum we are a mission-based for-profit company up in Seattle I'm the principal managing partner and the common thread for all of our work really is community impact and so that manifests itself in different asset classes within real estate one of its workforce housing and when we talk workforce housing we're really focused on often the missing middle and people that are priced out of mark-rate housing don't qualify for affordable so people making kind of forty to a hundred thousand a year in household income we also work a lot in healthcare dialysis clinics working with children's hospital we just did a food bank so really we try and look at niches in the market where we can hopefully bring our community-driven practice to fruition so today I'm going to highlight one of the projects, Orenda that really melds a number of these things together and kind of speaks to the DNA of our company Thank you. Okay, so welcome to Orenda so Orenda is in southeast Seattle in the neighborhood of Othello which is a really really interesting and rich neighborhood it's one of the most diverse in the United States over 40 different languages are spoken in that zip code so really really great community and rich history and this community you know we talk about community impact projects and we use the word community a lot but what does that mean and this really came from the community this project and the mix of uses in it came from what the community wanted to see and I think you know that's essential is that sometimes people will say well we're working with the community well it's working with what you want to do maybe and engage in the community this is what the community wanted and what they wanted was workforce housing some market rate housing there's a lot of affordable housing already in that neighborhood so they felt like to support the local businesses they needed more socioeconomic diversity in the housings that was really important to them they wanted community health care and they wanted tiny taught day care so we put in a day care as well and there's a charter school on the site as well next to our project so there's a whole mix of uses that are really kind of key for the community that they wanted to see there they also located across the street from the light rail station and that's really important I'd say 99% of our projects are transit oriented because people often talk about housing and isolation and sort of in a silo well it's really the cost of housing and transportation how are you going to get to your job and if you can be on light rail it's dramatically increasing your odds of getting to good job and not having to pay over 50% of your income in housing and transportation so that's really kind of key for us the project we partnered with Seattle Children's Hospital and the Odessa Brown Children's Clinic Odessa Brown was an amazing woman she moved from Arkansas in the 1920s to Seattle and was a community organizer in the Central District of Seattle which was a historically black community that has faced a lot of displacement due to gentrification over the years so Children's Hospital and Odessa Brown were looking to move south to meet their patients and families where they are so that's really kind of the genesis where we located the project in a silo in this neighborhood as well so that was really essential and the clinic provides wraparound services there's medical, there's dental, there's behavioral there's nutrition services so it's really intended to be really fully, full suited services for everybody and then the day care is now open for about 80 infants so it's a really really cool story there it's a local day care provider from the community as well that we started working with so we started working on the project in early 2018 we finished it end of last year and we went through the pandemic during construction and so it was quite a lot of twists and turns to it but we made it and I'm happy to report that today it's 98% occupied the clinic is open and serving families so is the day care so it's fully alive and breathing and now it has its own life and that's really exciting to see so let's see in the last slide yeah thank you I guess show of hands how many people are in real estate or invest or familiar with real estate investment okay cool so I think some of this is really wanted to speak to some of the highlights of the project and talk a little bit about the nuts and bolts of it as well I think one of the things that means the most to us is the community feedback on this did we do right by the community and our partnership with them and the national awards and recognition are fine but it's really about the community and I think one of the things that's really exciting about this is the community actually sees themselves in the mural and I mean that literally we hosted a number of workshops you can see a picture of it and community gathering so people will come in and tell their stories and art in different ways and we hired a muralist to take all those stories and put them into what we call a one line mural so the big mural you're seeing that hopefully you can see both of our murals from space is reflective of those stories into a single single mural and so that's been really cool we had a lot of great feedback people just you know they see their story up on the building and it means a lot and then there's a picture of a little boy next to a banner and that was a local artist we'd hired we also they came in and did some portraits that's a portrait of the boy on the banner so a lot of this was showing the community that they can be part of the project in different ways and help them feel connected to the clinic the colors of the clinic were chosen by local high school students for different high schools so really wanted to engage them in a lot of different ways and that was really really important to us I think in terms of diversity equity inclusion we also try and set pretty ambitious goals in our project so all the way through design development of the project we try and set goals and in this case I think we're about 60% women and minority owned businesses on the design side and we hit 35% for our subcontractors and that's something we're always trying to prove upon but that's really important to us as well and I think as some of you were in a meeting yesterday on blended capital stacks and this is truly a blended capital stack we use from a financing standpoint we use traditional construction debt and then we blended that with impact equity and then we actually had the hospital do an impact equity investment into the residential project I call it equity because it's kind of a combination it's technically equity but it acts like debt where they get a fixed rate of return over 20 years and what that investment did is allowed us to double the amount of affordability so we went from 20% of the units to 40% of the units that are income restricted at 80% or less of AMI for 20 years so essentially having that kind of equity allows you to double the breadth and the depth of affordability on projects that was really essential and that's kind of what we try and do is partner with nonprofits and figure out what are some creative ways with financing structures that we can really achieve the goals of the project so that's a render thank you Jake thank you Jake that's awesome and we really regret not meeting you and Gabe before you did this project because it's an amazing project and we would have loved to have been a part of it and yes we are working on looking at doing another project with these guys and partnering with the healthcare institution as well and the innovative capital stack that you just touched on is certainly a recurring theme for all of these projects that we'll come back to I know the team toured your project a couple months back and it's absolutely beautiful there's a lot of installations there Tim let's go to you and hear a little bit about Satori which is a project that Catalyst is an investor in thanks Nina thanks everyone for showing up and supporting us today I can't see you down there but I'm leaning and hopefully you can hear me clearly I think I got set up this morning I got to go last behind these two guys and they've got their notes they've got their programs and I'm thinking talk about pressure, here I am but just a little bit about me after my football career with the Baltimore Colts and the Minnesota Vikings my wife Dars and I who is here landed in Minnesota and after my football career I embarked upon various aspects of the real estate industry from construction to appraisal to development and consulting finally landed in the restaurant business and we operate currently several McDonald's restaurants in the Twin Cities metropolitan area one of our restaurants is located in an area in North Minneapolis that's been disinvested over the years and we've been in that community for over 27 years and just could not get that community to the level that the other areas of Minneapolis was thriving at as an example over the last 10 years there's been over 400 units of affordable housing in this community and zero market rate housing and so as you all know when you concentrate that kind of poverty in one area it does not have good results and so even today there are a lot of negative influences that are going on and you know my thing is how can I help how can we help this community and I realize that my interest and my experience and my passion is really playing in the dirt and trying to do real estate projects like I have done for most of my career I realize that I'm not a minister I'm not one to save souls I'm not an educator so I can't teach and I'm not a social scientist and so about 10 years ago we embarked upon a vision to what I thought was not just a project but a vision a village concept of what I thought could change the trajectory of this community that vision that village is called Satori Village Satori is comprised of three components the first component is a 112 unit market quality housing project with commercial on the first level we I will say that we have secured a tenant for the first level unsolicited which is Chase Bank which shows the desire and the need for services in the area and the commitment from Chase Bank to come into this area to help to help to transition the second phase the first phase we intended to be geared for professionals and young couples that want to stay and come into the area the second phase is designed for artists and also young professionals it is a 26 unit loft apartment project and the third phase is an independent living senior building which is also market quality which comprises the third leg of the village we have broken ground on the first phase in May and we are about 30% into the construction of the 112 unit building and thus far in the community it's been well received we have a myriad amount of investors including catalyst impact funds and we've created this project is in an opportunity zone and we have a capital stack that includes the state of Minnesota HUD Hennepin County which is the local county as well as the city of Minneapolis with tax increment financing we also have some corporate investors who decided to come in and support this vision and we are very excited about the progress to date and I'm not sure if it's on the screen but it is in progress now and we're very excited about it in May we had a ground break ceremony sorry it started without me in May we had a ground break ceremony and hopefully you can get some snippets of how that turned out and we're very excited about the project very excited to be here and very excited to be a partner with catalyst thank you so much Tim for the groundbreaking of Satori Phase 1 as Tim described and this is a really great case study on so many levels and what we really like about the Satori story is that a lot of people who aren't from the community who are kind of outsiders to the community kind of looking in this is a very low income neighborhood they would say well what this community needs is more deeply affordable housing and I think this was a really important lesson for us around really listening to the needs of the community and what the community voiced as a real need and what Tim really represented on their behalf is a need for people who are in the community and have jobs but historically haven't had a place to live in the community and so they've been forced to move away and so this project really allows them to have a place to stay in and build up their community much like Tim and Doris have a strong example of civic engagement of community engagement and really listening to the community versus listening to what capital or kind of an outside group might think the community needs so I'm going to ask the panelist a few follow up questions then hopefully we'll have some time for Q&A with the audience and one thing I wanted to highlight and Jake you talked about this briefly Tim you also quickly touched on it as well is the capital stack so each one of these projects has some form of subsidy that makes it pencil and I want to emphasize this because this is a conference about impact investing and there are lots of different flavors of impact investing in the room and catalyst along with other groups in the room as well is committed to double bottom line returns and what that means is that we're not willing to accept any concessions from the financial side in order to make the impact that we want to drive in these communities and the way that we're able to do that at least in this context is through bringing in kind of softer forms of capital things like grants, tax rebates things like that and so these guys have done a really nice job of building these kind of innovative capital stacks that allow kind of market return to investor like catalyst to come in and get competitive risk adjusted returns alongside measurable and deeply meaningful impact in these communities so Tim I wonder if you've touched on this a little bit in your overview but can you dive into a little bit more the kind of different levels of financing and the grants that you really worked very hard to bring into this project Sure, sure but before I do that I'd just like to try to phrase the dynamics typically policy directs funding and financing and a lot of the policy at the city level the state level and even at the federal level kind of guides the funding into a certain area and in this particular area the city's policy was we're not going to provide tax increment financing unless it's affordable housing and so the county followed that lens and the market started to shift that way and so I think they called it redlining when suddenly the banks don't want to invest in an area unless it's affordable housing and so my challenge was to change and shift that paradigm to say wait a minute we have to look at this through a different lens we while affordable housing and workforce housing is great and it's important we don't need that for this community we need to balance that and so my challenge became well how do I pay for market quality housing with affordable rents because the comparables were all affordable comparables and so I had to build my pro forma on basically an 80% AMI the city guidelines and HUD guidelines recommend a 50% AMI and so I had to build that so my gap was bigger my hill was steeper to try to put those funds together for the capital stack and we were persistent we twisted a few arms and we got some corporate partners behind us and they saw the vision and they believed in what we were doing and they supported the challenge and so we have 221 D3 HUD financing as the permanent financing and construction funding we have grants from Hennepin County which is a local county we have grants from the state to make this happen we also have investors from the community and from the corporate sector that added to that capital stack again along with catalyst to make this happen we were able to move this forward we're excited about this phase and the impact that it's already having in the community with people like Chase Bank starting to take hold and look and people are talking about coming back into the community now we need to build that diversity of economic base the diversity of thought and those people those people that can change the industry of the neighborhood and so you wonder people said we want jobs without the people to fill those jobs businesses aren't going to come without the people to buy services the goods and services that we need aren't going to come the dry cleaners aren't going to come unless there are customers there the restaurants with tablecloths and fine dining restaurants aren't going to come unless there are patrons there and so my belief was if you build it they will come and so that's starting to happen now with Chase it's starting to happen now with the excitement and the buzz about the imminent development of the second and third phase and we're excited now already property values are starting to stabilize and turn around and that's what we want Jake I wonder if we go to you for a quick question what really stood out to us about Orinda is the healthcare clinic on the ground floor and I'm wondering if you can kind of elaborate a little bit there I know you talked through a couple different elements of it but just the holistic approach to community health and what exactly it means for the community that it's sitting within so a great question I think what do you think about the healthcare clinic for the community it's something that has been lacking a long time in that neighborhood and area and it's funny a lot of the consolidation of hospitals in Seattle at least on the north side or downtown so this community having good equitable health outcomes having those facilities there is essential and so it's something the community really been wanting for a long time and it was really important too that when we look about the Odessa Brown clinic and the story of that clinic that it was the right fit in that community too in terms of partnering and making sure that all the services are top notch it's a beautiful beautiful clinic came out really really well and it's got community space it's got when we do that nutrition it's not just the training but there's a whole type one hood professional kitchen in there so you can actually host some pretty large classes there the dental clinic is amazing the artwork on the I mean when the kids are in there there's artwork on all the ceiling tiles all it's just a really vibrant colorful clinic and it feels very different than a clinic you would find in downtown Seattle or something because it is from the community in all ways and so that's really important so when families and kids are getting care there it's you know they see themselves in the artwork and they feel like you know it's comfortable to them and so we designed it as well with the kind of mainstream concept too where we really facilitate interactions with all the families and the patients so we want people to be there and feel like it's home for them and they can come and feel comfortable getting services so really really important to have that community vision throughout the project awesome Kathy I want to ask you one last question and then maybe a speed round for all three of you before we get to audience Q&A so Kathy in addition to being an amazing social impact developer you're also a really efficient operator and we saw that firsthand with COS on MLK when you built COS you were building really through the height of the inflation spike in construction both on the labor and commodity side and we were kind of nervously looking at the budget and the draw requests and kind of waiting for the hammer blow to come and it never came and you were able to deliver this project not just on time but also on budget and I'm wondering if you can kind of talk about how you were able to do that in this environment yeah that's a great question before I answer that one I just wanted to comment on Tim's as well that to your point about the community getting excited I should have mentioned that there's now a second crane in the air up on the hilltop in Tacoma because there's another market rate developer who has come in and is building a very nice apartment building just two blocks down and we believe that is just really the beginning for that neighborhood that there will continue to be revitalization as that neighborhood continues to grow and the excitement related to living in that area once again becomes real for people and so it's a very real thing if you can be the first one in that makes that difference it's significant and just applaud Tim for doing that to your question we did we delivered actually a little early on this project and a couple of million dollars under budget on this particular project and really what it took was great really great partnerships and those of you who are in development or who are investing in development you know that if you have a terrific general contractor that's committed and really shares your vision and ultimately that's what it's about it's everybody getting behind the concept of making a difference in the communities where you're developing and I think for this particular general contractor they believed in that as well so it wasn't all of a sudden just about building a building it was about building a building and completing it within a time frame that really created that level of cost savings the same was true for our project again the city came in they were able to give us the land at a price that was below market and I think all of that combined I think once you move into this space as a developer where you really are trying to make a difference and people believe that it's not just a line I think all of a sudden you find yourself where everybody on the team all of the partners in the project alongside of you all work together to make it happen I don't think it came in $2 million under budget for any other reason because we've had projects go the other way but this one it just felt from the get go like it was intended to make a difference in that community and I think that was a huge part of it thank you so last last question speed round as I mentioned before this has been is a really involved tool time you know high interest rates high inflation staring down the nose of a recession how does that impact for each of you how does that impact your strategy and plans moving forward and second question not related but maybe you can throw this in is this is a multi-strategy multi-asset class conference so people are here you know in venture and private equity number of different strategies why the built environment why real estate and you know what calls you about this asset class Kathy do you want to start yikes love to thank you that's what I meant you know I'm going to you know what how do you creatively work your way through this environment which for all intents purposes has every challenge in front of us right now with construction prices on the rise interest rates on the rise really all of the forces working against sort of this concept of trying to keep rents affordable and so really to Tim and Jake's previous comments which are brilliant you really have to work to be creative to fill that capital stack differently and to really look to those public private partnerships we're starting a project in Spokane here with our favorite social impact developer catalyst I hear shortly and what what we've had to do in that particular environment is we have gotten a grant from the city to cover our building permits and there is a multifamily tax exemption that will go into place on this project when the building is done and we are participating in a Zoom call with local actually in state representatives to try and really think about what else we can be doing to get affordable housing into this community in Spokane that really hasn't had market rate affordable what did you call it Tim it was it was really brilliant maybe it was just market rate affordable housing in probably 50 years and so I think it's all of those things combined with you know finding the right partners that really share that same mission and vision so I'll go next I think from an investment standpoint investing in apartments is one of the best hedges against inflation because rents unfortunately because we have a total dearth of housing in this country we are way under building the amount of housing we need but the rents will keep climbing and about 20 million Americans just lost the ability to get home ownership in the last couple months just with the interest rates going up so people are falling out of those opportunities so I think more and more on the rental demand will continue to see that so if you look at investing in the markets or crypto it's pretty scary on all that stuff and apartments I think it's always been really attractive in inflationary environments they given kind of where we are in the market cycle we are putting a couple large projects on hold there's one we're pushing through right now so you kind of have to you can have a long-term strategy and we always try and do that because I think if you're trying to time the market and all that I never believe in that I think that's a recipe maybe maybe you can do that someone can teach me but I do think that's a really dangerous recipe so we always have a really long-term focus and especially you know thinking about where you work and being smart about it so that you're not trying to time things and we're actually deleveraging we're actually in terms of the amount of debt we would typically want typically you trying as much debt as you can we're actually trying to reduce the amount of debt we take on right now and bring in more equity which is kind of contrarian to how we've typically done but we've been in this low interest rate environment obviously for you know last 15 years and it's kind of catching up to us now so we're trying to tweak how we think about things so we're I know as you think about your capital stacks whatever you're investing in it's actually kind of interesting to think about how you can deleverage during this time I remember years ago when I first started in the business interest rates were 12, 13, 14 percent things worked and to be creative I recall when interest rates got into single digits at 9 percent everybody was rejoicing so now we're going back up to 5 and everybody's panicking I personally look at the development business in two different buckets there's intentional development and there's opportunistic development and so I have been an opportunistic developer you know find the best deal find the best returns find the best end users and you make it work for the last decade because I wanted to impact the community I decided to be an intentional developer so my intention is to impact communities and in this particular community it's we don't need anymore for the policy in order to create that balance in order to create a healthy community we need more market rate and so my intent is to create impact and so the investors that I look for in our attracting are those investors that want to not so much get a financial return or IRR and so forth or cash return their gauge like catalyst is how much impact we make in a community and so if the interest rates are higher you need more cash to close that gap I'm relying on those corporations and investors and entities like catalyst to say hey need another million bucks you know here it is because we believe that this will create the impact that we need to create transition in the neighborhood so I'm not daunted by the interest rates rising I am concerned about construction to continue to increase but because of people like catalyst and some of the local investors in Minneapolis I'm feeling good about the process I want to thank you guys for the really important work that you're doing in your communities and for being with us today and sharing your perspective so thank you