 Good evening. I want to call this meeting of the Durham City Council to order on February the 17th 2020 and I certainly want to welcome everyone here tonight and also those people who are watching at home on television we're very very glad to have you with us and now could you join me in preparing for our time together tonight with a moment of silence thank you council member Reese thank you mr. mayor good evening colleagues staff and members of the public tonight we are happy to be joined by cub scout pack 424 that's from immaculate conception church mr. mayor we had the opportunity to spend some time in the lobby just a little while ago talking about local government and what we do and what we don't now believe they're going to come up and lead us in the Pledge of Allegiance and if it's your practice to do so and if you're able please rise and join us for the pledge go for it guys I pledge allegiance to the flag of the united states of america and to the republic for which it stands one nation under God indivisible with liberty and justice for all thank you well done scouts we appreciate you thank you council member reese always four to four and now madame clerk will have the roll call mere shul here mere pro tem johnson here comes member austin here comes member katayero here comes member freeman president comes member middleton here comes member east here thank you and now we're going to move to tonight's ceremonial items and we're going to begin with the neighbor spotlight always one of our favorites which will be presented tonight to patricia obregon a resident of the old east Durham uh and pack one miss obregon would you come up and bring with you anyone else that you might like to uh come up with you how are you come on up i'm going to give this plaque to miss obregon and i'm going to read a little something about her and then i'm going to give her the opportunity to say a few words to us the neighbor spotlight is given tonight to patricia obregon patricia obregon is the recipient of the neighborhood spotlight for the month of february 2020 the neighbor spotlight award recognizes community members that have gone above and beyond and volunteering their time to serve the community this month patricia obregon resident of old east Durham community was nominated and selected because of the wonderful work that she has done in her neighborhood including but not limited to assisting with organizing a computer skills workshop for spanish-speaking moms in her neighborhood with limited computer knowledge to learn basic computer skills volunteered numerous hours with the city of Durham's participatory budget program her dual language has been a tremendous benefit during the participatory budgeting process and providing support to other mothers by providing resources and programs that benefit latinx residents in Durham so miss obregon congratulations on being the february 2020 neighbor spotlight for the city of Durham and thank you for all the work you do to improve our Durham community and um if there are other residents here to support miss obregon can you either stand up or raise your hand great wonderful thank you all and miss obregon will you say a few words to us yeah good afternoon i am patricia obregon and i have been living in Durham for 13 years and i would like to thank the city and all the people who are trying to involve more latinos especially carmen orteez who invited me first and some associations such as edci um good evening i'm patricia habillero is going to help us with the uh with the interpretation thank you good evening my name is patricia obregon i've lived in Durham for 13 years i would like to give thanks to carmen orteez and inna nis for first encouraging me to participate in the city along with edci and action política latina thank you so much and also to the latino parents of children with autism for all their support why do we look and our second ceremonial item tonight is also another really great one and this is a proclamation to honor samaritan health center day and will the folks from samaritan health center please come up how are you good to see you i am going to read this proclamation and then um elizabeth brill who's here representing the health center will have a few words for us whereas access to health care is a top priority for durham county and whereas samaritan health center was established to provide high quality medical dental and vision care to the uninsured in durham and whereas an estimated 13 percent of durham residents were uninsured in 2017 and whereas samaritan health center has offered more than 29 000 visits to community members in 18 languages since 2009 and whereas samaritan health center collaborates with academic medical and faith-based institutions throughout the region and whereas february 19th marks the 11th anniversary of samaritan health center's first clinic now therefore i steven m shul mayor of the city of durham north carolina do hear about proclaim february 19th 2020 the samaritan health center day in durham and hear about commend its observance to all citizens witness my hand in the corporate seal the city of durham north carolina this 17th day of february 2020 congratulations on this anniversary and um please uh join us for a few words thank you very much i'm honored to be here tonight on behalf of samaritan health center our staff our board of directors our volunteers but most particularly our patients it has been our privilege to offer high quality affordable health care to our uninsured neighbors in durham for the last 11 years this is a city with a rich diversity in its history its people and its resources at samaritan health center we seek to foster connections among all the members of our community it's been my observation that not only are our patients receiving excellent health care but our volunteers and our staff are becoming better doctors better students and better communities from learning from our patients we have a very long way to go in this city before every member of our city has access to the high quality health care they deserve and i'm really grateful for the commitment of so many people in our city whether it's duke or lincoln or el perturo or world relief we're honored to be a part of durham safety net and we look forward to serving and learning together for many years to come thank you i do want to say one more word before elizabeth leaves the podium which is that she and her staff had members of the city council out to their wonderful clinic about six weeks ago i'm thinking and a whole lot of us came i'd never seen so many council members in one place except for here and we had an amazing tour of this facility which gives free and extremely affordable care to so many of our residents we're so lucky to have them so thank you so much all right now i'll ask if there any announcements by members of the council councilmember middleton thank you mr mayor good evening to you and to colleagues and to everyone in the chamber two quick things mr mayor firstly just want to take a point of a personal privilege to make a special introduction tonight mr mayor growing up i didn't grow up in a wealthy family materially and we weren't powerful but we were blessed to be part of an ecosystem that was culturally rich and connected to some people doing some wonderful things both in our city and in our country and because of those connections culturally oftentimes what i was getting in the classroom i couldn't go see the places i read about in the textbook in the classrooms financially but i had people in my life that poured into me culturally and gave me a great deal of exposure that made up for any financial lack and i directly attribute my being on this council to those connections and to that pouring into me uh at a very early stage in my life and i want to keep fidelity uh with that uh commit those commitments that were made to me so i've been on the council for a couple of years i've never had an intern since i've been on council i've made a lot of excuses i need to learn how to do the job there's so many things going on uh but i thought seriously uh last month uh about all that was poured into me uh growing up so uh in keeping fidelity with that i am very very pleased uh to announce that i have an intern uh a brilliant young political science student a junior uh from the north carolina central university and i went to city i see you to help me welcome imani johnson to our municipal families imani just stand up real quick and wave so she's not on the council so if she calls you don't yell at her she she's just doing my bidding save the yelling i did want to welcome her congratulate her uh on her internship and looking forward uh to her having a wonderful time here at city hall secondly mr mayor we we are greatly anticipating the return of our residents our our neighbors our brothers and sisters uh to mcdougal terrace um to newly renovated fresh units we look forward to that but we also know that when they return uh many of the things that they were dealing with um outside of the apartment will still be in play and there's much work to be done uh in addition to just in addition to just physically uh renovating their homes um there's been a couple of shootings lately uh and we know that there are people that are still being affected by that notwithstanding what we report in the headlines i do want to acknowledge uh that i've received calls from a leadership and staff of the widet school one of our premier pre-k programs here in the city faith leaders gerome washington and mount bernard baptist church both of those institutions have had gunfire come very very close uh to their facilities i want to stress that the first one is a facility where our children are gathered regularly i i look forward to at this thursday's work session the chief are coming back before us to talk about some specific um the steps they've been taking taking and some they'd like to take uh with respect to gun violence through the prism of gang intervention as well and i ask that um the city stay tuned and pay close attention to that as we continue to do more than just one thing we know the emergency that's um been on uh the front burner so to speak and being in the headlines but i do want us to be aware that when our folk return to their home the things that were going on outside of the home will still be issues and indeed those issues have been persisting um so let us continue the work thank you mr mayor thank you councilmember meadowson council councilmember freeman thank you um just following up i also wanted to share i mentioned last month about earlier this month about the derm youth internship program um getting up and running and needing volunteers for the interviews but i also want to encourage all youth from ages 14 to 24 to uh apply to the program and make sure that they sign up for those internships uh the deadline is actually going to be march 27th and i want to make sure as many as many students in this community have the opportunity to take advantage of um all of the businesses and opportunities we have and um encouraged uh folks in the community also gear up to be involved in the process as well to help steer these youth and the direction that could lead to uh future economic stability and so i wanted to share um so we'll need interviewers for the internship program with with up to a thousand students likely to apply um each of those slots will need at least two people so at least two thousand um slots available for folks in the community to participate in interviewing students that we know will be in our workforce in the future and so just continuing on that push to get more businesses signed up as sites there's also the at that sign up is also available and i need to get the exact website named but um i will follow up on that and then on another note i had uh hold on let's try to pull it all together well middle thing you do talks a little longer we'll come back to it but it's specific to um in a bit at carolina theater and i just want to put it on everyone's radar but i'll give you a second i'll come back to that maybe we'll do the priority items and after we've done the priority items we'll come back to you council member thank you very much sure um mr manager are there any priority items thank you mr mayor members of the council good evening everyone have one priority item this uh evening item number 17 the ordinance to amend the Durham city code provision right regulating the withdrawal of right away within the city this item on the original agenda was erroneously listed as a public hearing there is not a public hearing to accompany that item uh and so at this point we have repositioned under the consent agenda if council prefers you can certainly move it to a gba item i think it's fairly routine but right now it's listed as item 17 uh in the consent agenda thank you thank you mr manager no motion on that okay um madam madam attorney good evening mr mayor madam mayor per cent members of council it's good to be with you all this evening the city attorney's office has no priority items thank you madam clerk good evening everyone the city clerk's office has no items thank you so with that uh i'll ask council member freeman if you would like to make her second announcement thank you so i just wanted to share that the there are three more events actually four events coming up and so on hold on every saturday there is a saturday series for families all shows are at 11 a.m at the carolina theater and the shows are five dollars is a great opportunity for you to come out and enjoy um what the carolina theater has to offer and then also noting that there is a teen theater intensive that is offered at the carolina theaters from the or in partnership with the derm arts council and that will be from june 16 to the 19th um nine a.m to noon and this will be the second year of that program and just want to make sure that students are aware as they look for options over the summer and then also planning for all 750 plus parks and rec youths that attend the carolina theater and the derm parks and recs dance and music performances throughout the summer um there will be offerings throughout the summer thank you very much council member freeman all right we'll now move to the consent agenda the consent agenda can be approved by the council with a single vote any member of the public or any member of the council can pull an item from the consent agenda in which case we will consider that item at the end of the meeting item one is approval of city council minutes item two interlocal agreement with derm county for joint funding of an unsheltered coordinating agency item three contract with the housing authority the city of derm for the provision of tenant-based rental assistance services item four contract purchase of six replacement light transit vehicles from interstate transportation sales and service ink interlocal agreement with the i'm sorry item five interlocal agreement with the capital area metropot and planning organization for the triangle bikeway implementation study item six f y 2019 20 cip budget amendment project close out item seven interlocal agreement for automatic mutual aid with the town of cary item eight interlocal agreement for automatic mutual aid with the town of chapel hill item nine purchase contract with sas since it's an ink for the smart building analytics platform expansion mr mayor i don't want to pull it but i do want to comment on it sure i just wanted to say that was an item that i pulled at our last work session and the mayor pro tem and i both met with sas um folks last week it was a conversation around their contracts with um department of homeland security and if there was any collaboration with uh ice immigration custom enforcement and we were able to determine that that was not the case and felt good about it and we will continue dialogue with them thank you very much councilmember cubietto and thank you for having that meeting and to mayor pro tem item 10 purchase contract with j brady contracting incorporated dba building clarity for the city wide master h vac control systems integration item 11 contract with environmental conservation laboratory zinc for laboratory services for the public work stormwater quality program item 17 ordinance to amend the Durham city code provision regulating the withdrawal of right of way within the city you've heard the consent agenda and now i'll accept a motion for its approval so moved second and moved and second that we approve the consent agenda agenda madam clerk will you please open the vote please close the vote thank you the motion passes thank you very much okay um we are going to now uh before we have our public hearing items and before the gba general business agenda we're going to going to move the agenda a little bit so we can hear from uh members of uh folks want to comment on the google terrace which we have at the end of our agenda but just so these folks won't have to be waiting we have two speakers and i'm going to call them in order first will be ashley canady uh and then it will be john tray dunstan and if you all will please come over to my right uh miss canady welcome and uh we're glad to have you and you have three minutes good afternoon good afternoon um i know we talk about magduga terrace a lot but it's a really serious issue but it seems like every time i come to the city council meeting something different has happened um i just want to people make people aware that um what you're hearing about what's going on in magduga terrace is true people's departments are being broken into residents are coming home to nothing windows busted out um my son actually walked in on somebody in my room counting my money um we have videos of contractors putting stuff in their pockets um enough is enough we've suffered enough um i seen today when i was out there a guy walking around selling a resident's tv after calling the police she's going to come home to no tv's um i just want people to be very vigilant if you're coming through the neighborhood if you guys see anything just just let us know um residents are coming home but the sad thing of it is is when they're coming home they're going to need more help because a lot of residents are coming home to having to deal with the fact that they may not have anything um housing authority has turned the power off in apartments which has caused residents to lose everything in their freezers so we're dealing with that as well i just need the city of durham to realize that um people aren't really trying to get people aren't trying to get over in mac dougall everybody keeps saying oh they're just trying to come up off mac dougall that's not true so um durham we're going to need a lot of help when residents come back mental health um we have children being suspended from school right now we have 13 students that are displaced in mac dougall that are suspended from school facing hearings because the school said they're coming to school venting too much that's the problem so right now we're battling hearings it's so much going on i just want you guys and i want to thank the city for you know really stepping up helping us in mac dougall if it wasn't for the city i don't know where we'd be everybody keeps giving me accolades and stuff yes i'm doing the work but if it wasn't for durham coming together we wouldn't um be where we are today and i just ask you guys to continue to support us um we're going to keep applying pressure to housing authority because we're right now actually trying to have the um nc detective agency removed from mac dougall because they're not doing their job they're 24 hours but we have over 23 apartments being broken into residents shouldn't have to come home to that after being displaced in hotels so um we're going to need a lot of support so if you guys have support um my number is out there i'm at 51b pretty much every day if i'm not sick but um just continue to support us in mac dougall and um listen to the cries out for help because people aren't making up these stories it's the real deal and um if we were any other community i feel they would have done a lot more than what they're doing we barely see dpd anymore um once the break-ins increase dpd has started showing up more but we had nc detective agency out there today where three apartments was broken into with them out there they're not walking around so if you guys see these agencies and stuff just encourage them to um even though we live in mac dougall we're still human at the end of the day thank you miss canady mr dunson um good evening ladies and gentlemen um brothers and sisters of city councilmen and city council women um just like miss ashley noted on is that you know there's a lot of incidents that's going out there with the break-ins and with people with lost of material also we went through there and did our own inspection and the situation where now there's water damage coming from the cabinets there's ceilings because we had this past last storm and plus we're about to come across our freeze now and a lot of the units out there are not getting the mandatory work that needs to be done also again like miss ashley stated that we have north colin detective agency and i'm a licensed security officer in the state of north carolina and all they're doing is just riding around sitting in their cars fraternizing with certain individuals out there they don't need to be fraternizing with and yes durin pd has not stepped up the patrol like they used to now this all comes down to where this is an issue where a lot of the residents don't even feel safe coming back to mac dougal terrace because they feel that this is going to be a continuing problem now there are vouchers that can be issued but like the agencies that we've been in contact with it said that there's no available rental places for us to go but there are places located outside of this county that are willing to accept the vouchers so again like i said again i do recommend i do give a great deal of gratitude to the city councilmen and the city council women that are coming out there standing with us i am also proud to say that this city is showing that who we really are as a family not as individuals but it takes a family to help each and everybody else our children are suffering because of the claustrophobiasm that setting in with them inside these hotels i even had my son tell me he was ready to die the other day because of the situation was going on and i told him you know what as the old saying go you're supposed to bury me before i bury you so let me die in the inside and let me let y'all live on the outside and i know um jillian johnson you've been catching a lot of you know flag but sister i see what you're trying to do and i'm proud of you but like you said with your analysis of the police department you was absolutely right and you need to continue your investigation and you need to get into our police chief because we don't see her come out in the community we don't see her get involved with this situation and honestly that last report you did was on the money and i'm glad that you stepped up and you need to stay in the police chief because our sheriff cannot do all this by itself if this comes to the situation where we have two agencies well we need to drop one of these agencies the sheriff is the highest law enforcement person of the land he could deter ice away from here and plus we have this new governor that's coming up that's going to give y'all a little bit more problems than our last governor so at the end of the day i would like to tell everybody thank you my minutes up and um y'all have a great week thank you mr. Dunstan i appreciate you all for being here uh let me say again that we all recognize our responsibility to get people home safely um and the the break-ins that are occurring are not acceptable and i'm appreciative of you being here to talk about that and we've had lots of communication with mr. scott and with uh chief davis about this and i am sure that they will be doing a lot of work on it and i appreciate appreciate y'all being here and we all know how important it is so thank you so much all right we'll now move on to our next item which is item 21 which is the community safety task force bylaws we do have a number of people here to speak about this item this is not a public hearing item but we're going to of course hear everyone you have one two three four people here to speak about it i think what i'd like to do uh madam mayor pro tem is ask you to give a brief introduction then we'll hear from the speakers and now we'll discuss it does that sound like a good way to proceed that sounds great great thank you mr. mayor um so this item is to approve bylaws for a community safety and wellness task force that we have been working on in cooperation with uh some interested community members for the last few months um the the safety task force would be in service of bringing community members together um to think about ways that we can ensure that our ensure our residents safety by um expanding access to prevention intervention and reentry services to deal with violent crime um we've had some we've had a number of conversations about um the issues that we face in our community around um violent crime particularly gun violence and the goal of this task force would be to think about ways that the community can all come together and prevent crime before it starts intervene in situations that are escalating and um and then make sure that we're providing services to folks who are reentering the community um to prevent recidivism and and reoffending the bylaws that are before the council today have been through um a recent revision in consultation with uh community members who requested a few changes and those are enumerated for for all of y'all um we would also be we would be partnering with the county and the school district for this task force which I believe is the only task force that includes um county city and school board appointees um which I'm very excited about because we're we're able to think holistically about our entire um safety and wellness landscape and of course the schools are a really important part of that in disrupting um the school to prison pipeline and we know our school district has been doing a lot of work on reducing suspensions making sure that um kids can stay in school where they want so I'm excited to discuss this all um again with with folks tonight and hope that we can move forward uh this evening on getting started thank you mr. mayor thank you very much and thank you very much for helping to lead this mayor pro town appreciate it thank you uh with your uh colleagues thank you councilmember allston as well appreciate that all right um I'm going to now ask for the speakers and then we'll have this discussion and there are four people who've signed up to speak uh the first is kisha mullet the second is manju regendron third is danielle purfoy and fourth is bo chromardi and so uh I'm going to ask uh if the first couple of you could please come over here to my right and we'll begin um um with kisha mullet mrs. mullet welcome and you have three minutes good evening thank you for allowing me to speak this evening uh you said my name is kisha mullet I am a Durham resident and a member of Durham Beyond Policing uh we are very excited that the city council has approved the safety and wellness task force and is now in the early stages of implementation this signals your recognition that all Durham residents need a comprehensive approach to safety and wellness in addition to recommending funding more social support systems that address root causes of violence in other programs and other problems the task force should also consider identifying and recommending other forms of first responders such as mobile mental health crisis units that have been enacted in other places and that move us away from criminalization and incarceration and towards conflict resolution and transformative justice Durham residents know that safety comes from our basic needs being met such as having housing having access to food and employment the new community led safety and wellness task force promised promises to move Durham in the right direction away from harsh enforcement practices and towards a more supportive and safe place for us to live thank you thank you miss mullet second we will hear it looks like you all have a different order you want to go and that's fine miss purefoy welcome you also have three minutes thank you um my name is danielle purefoy and i'm here also as a member of Durham Beyond Policing um i'm here to um celebrate the passage of the task force the community led and safety and wellness task force and here in support of it um i think this is a critical time in Durham's history to move us beyond policing and surveillance and towards support systems designed to reduce the social stressors that lead to violence and other forms of harm in our communities and schools i'm specifically here as we tasked to do to support the proposed amendments to the task force bylaws which include uh for stipends for task force members and i understand that that's a sort of general proposal on the table for the for the budget to cover all task forces which we in the city which we support um along with increases in the numbers of justice involved organizers and youth members on the task force we think it's really important that folks who are directly impacted by our carceral systems um and policing be more most represented on um the task force um and in particularly since this task force does include the um representatives from uh appointed from the school board um it's really critical to have more than one youth member on the force um so i am here as a member of Durham Beyond Policing but also as a lifelong member of Durham's community um i grew up here and i went to public schools here i went to Holt, Hillendale, Carrington and Northern and i've been witness um as a student and as a sister to two younger sisters that also came up through these schools um to the vast increases in policing and surveillance um in the city and especially in our schools um i grew up in a Durham where there weren't SROs in every corner of the schools where we had guidance counselors and peer mediation and various other systems in place designed to keep us safe and importantly also to keep us in school um and so i believe that one of the really critical things that this task force can do um is to help get us back on to relying on those systems instead of on fear and criminalization um of our students in our broader community um there are so many resources out there to support this um this argument around the school-to-prison pipeline and also around policing and surveillance moving beyond that generally and um as Durham Beyond Policing will actually be posting a resource a public resource list for folks um who are interested in learning more about um what's out there and what the task force could support in the future thank you thank you miss purefoy low crow marty welcome you also have three minutes thank you hello my name is bow crow marty and i'm also a member of Durham Beyond Policing i'm also really grateful for the passing of the community task force and i just want to emphasize for the bylaws that it's essential for the members of the community task force to be compensated for their time there's um the city has already acknowledged that um for the other various task force that most of the members are middle to high income earners and i think it's imperative for this task force to succeed that the members are representative of the community um that is most impacted by policing which is mostly low income low wealth black and brown people in Durham and so additionally the Durham police and sheriff's department command millions of public dollars every year to perpetuate criminalization and incarceration and neither of which makes it feel safe or well the task force requires investments at levels that take seriously the transformative work it is trying to do in Durham beyond individual stipends for the task force members the task force will need funding um for travel research additional meetings and public meetings to represent its findings so yeah i just want to emphasize stipends and paying the task force members for their time thank you thank you mr marty mind you regendron welcome you also have three minutes thank you um i just want to thank y'all on behalf of Durham Beyond Policing particularly mayor pro tem johnson and council member allston for your leadership on authoring and amending the bylaws um and for to the whole council and uh city staff for your enthusiastic involvement in developing this county community-led safety and wellness task force we'd like to call on the city council to support our efforts to engage the county commissioners and the school board to fully participate in the task force we know that the community led safety and wellness task force will only be successful with meaningful leadership and enthusiastic engagement from not just city council but also our county and school board we see in our daily lives how the issues around safety and wellness apply broadly in every sector of our city and county and especially the schools so thank you so much for that vision that we saw um um mayor shul bring around uh that united work and please help us in our efforts to recruit them to the cause thank you very much thank you all for being here um and uh for bringing this issue to us we're gonna have some discussion about it now on the council i do want to just say a couple of things first though uh and in response to some of the important points that you raise um just to uh i think you all know but we are now considering offering stipends to those members of any of our boards and commissions uh who have the need uh we haven't decided on that yet but we're uh what we have discovered and one of you all pointed out is our city clerk did a great job madam clerk thank you studying the makeup of our boards and commissions and that we have an extremely uh in terms of race and gender we are very very representative of our city which is great but we also ask an income question on the survey and what we found is that our members of our boards and commissions of whom i think there's 200 and some members um uh uh we have relatively few uh low income members of our community on those boards and commissions and we feel like we have an opportunity to get more folks involved if we're able to pay us small stipend for meeting attendance which would help people with transportation and child care and those kinds of things so the council is considering that we've made no decision but i did want to address that since you all had raised it and that will be uh that's under consideration currently the other thing i wanted to address was uh the the uh the uh miss regendron what you said about the county commission and school board i think it's i've had discussions with county commission members county commission chair and others uh and i know that mayor pro tem johnson has two and i know some of our other council members have um and when you all came to us a lot of people came to us to talk about this and really lifted this up as an important issue and i think that same kind of grassroots work's going to need to go on uh with the county commissioners we have asked them to join us uh we uh either tonight or sometime soon we'll be passing these bylaws but we're going to it's going to be really important that people organize uh to get the participation of our county commissioners thank you i think our school board is ready here my my reading okay thank you all so much um and now i'm going to ask if there are any comments uh concerns questions by members of the council councillor middleton thank you mr mayor um thank you uh for the work i um i i look forward to supporting this task force uh but i think firstly i think there's some some questions and considerations regarding the current um iteration of bylaws before us mr mayor you alluded to that the in its current form the impression is that the county is on board and i think that some work needs to be done uh i think the good thing about this we are we are under a self-imposed deadline there there's no case to be made for experience and i think from a matter of form um as the city's highest deliberative body i'm i i just have an issue with passing something that i know on its face is not fully reflective of what is going on so i'm i'm going to ask for a little more time to to either bring the county on board fully with a full yes or if they're not then since we're going to be taking a legal vote on this to make this document i'd be reflective of the reality uh on the ground secondly i i i do also have some questions about the way experts on the uh committee would be credentialed and deemed so i think i i feel a little more comfortable with some conversation about that i do want to say however for the for the larger audience um why i'm supporting this and the context in which i'm supporting it i'm not supporting this the the task force uh within the work rubric of an either or choice uh from the beginning of this debate debate i have argued that we need to be doing root causes and we need to keep up with our capacity as a city of 300 000 people who do not experience policing or interaction with police the same way as some of the voices that have been most reflective in this conversation i asked voluntarily and i was given the job so when i go to bed at night i i watched the news a little differently and i read the paper most average folk so when i go to bed and i think about uh police i know you're saying you need to get a life uh when i go to bed and think about police i'm not only thinking about responding to to brothers and sisters uh in some of our low-income neighborhoods i'm thinking about establishing perimeters during gas explosions i'm thinking about a multiple pronged terrorist incident in our city and who responds to those i'm thinking about not waiting for three hours to get uh an internet report taken for for a fender bender in traffic i'm thinking about the 14 to 20 people that move here every day as a black man it would be very easy for me to to parse this conversation through that lens of experience but you didn't elect me to just do that you elected me to to consider the well-being of 300 000 people and within that context is a much more expanded view of what it means to augment capability in the department uh much of which what they do has nothing to do with violent crime the gas explosion and establishing of a perimeter has nothing to do with violent crime taking an accident report has nothing to do with violent crime when an amber alert goes off looking for our children we hope doesn't have anything to do with violent crime ripping off your tack belt and jumping into a lake or a pool and pulling somebody out because there's a storm they got stuck in water has nothing to do with violent crime and as more people move to the city i want to make sure that we're keeping up with the capacity to do all of those things that have nothing to do with violent crime secondly i just want to speak also to the to the intellectual underpinnings for me uh in this debate racism has been such in this country that to make exotic just a police department is intellectually dishonest there is no area of american life that does not require deconstruction and renegotiation none not the constitution not the declaration decoration of independence not professional sports not everything requires uh deconstruction and one of the things historically i love about abolitionists is that they were truly abolitionists they didn't call just for the end of whippings they call it for the end of slavery the entire institution so my intellectual trajectory is that the real end result the the logical trajectory of abolitionism is nationalism it it's the total destroying of a total system which would include the justice system the police are the whippings they're not the whole system um and most of us when we engage in this conversation don't engage in a true abolitionist conversation because it's real cute to show up and and and and support black people uh you know from getting beat or shot by police but when you start talking about total black self-determination when you start talking about total control of systems that's a nationalism conversation the reality is we are most of us just really reformers satana de berry is not calling for the total deconstruction of the justice system she's reforming it um sarahlyn davis is not calling for the abolition of police she's reforming it and the reality is we most of us live in address live in at the address not of true abolitionist but as reformers um the notion that over policing is a numerical reality is fallacious over policing has nothing to do with the number of police officers we deploy or hire over policing is a cultural phenomena it is a leadership issue if we don't hire one more officer from now until the end of this republic we can still deploy that department in a way that overpolices we can still put them and aggregate them in areas which will result in disparate outcomes so it is not a mathematical phenomena over policing it is cultural it is incumbent upon folk like us to be unafraid to snatch a badge if somebody does something egregious we are the bulwark against over policing not playing with numbers or or or moratoriums or arbitrary hiring freezes so i want to be very clear and signal to the folk of the city i'm i'm supporting this task force um because we do need a comprehensive approach uh to to to criminal justice all of criminal justice in this country and policing we need to do listen i'm a head start baby i understand the importance of root causes we definitely need to do root causes but as as a duly elected leader of 300 000 people it is also incumbent upon me to make sure that this great american city maintains the capability to respond to a wide range of contingencies many of them that have nothing absolutely nothing to do uh with violent crime uh we needed either or approach and and i think that approaching this debate as if it's uh we need a both end uh approaching this debate as an either or i think is is is just it's not intellectually viable it doesn't reflect the the facts on the ground and it also doesn't truly reflect what we do in every other area um i can't imagine anyone um opposing our da hiring more assistant district attorneys which do law enforcement uh because that would be augmenting the capacity to do more harm no we trust her because we see her as a transformative figure who is not deconstructing the system she's reforming it i see this police chief that we have in much the same way as a transformative figure and if you want to have an intellectually honest conversation if we want to talk about abolishing police then we need to abolish the whole darn system because everything in america requires renegotiation there is no vestige of anything in america that has not been enlisted in an institutional uh uh racist systemic attack on us everything if you're going to stay here requires renegotiation and deconstruction so mr. mayor with that i look forward to um um supporting the task force i do however want to again emphasize that i think some more wordsmithing needs to be done uh to reflect the reality uh of either the county's support or non-support and i do think some more wordsmithing needs to be done in terms of how we will credential uh and deem um experts as such um so with that i will i will submit that as my concern i would ask that we would you know do some further work before we actually pass the bylaws but i do look forward uh to passing the bylaws and in paneling the task force within the context that i just described thank you mr. mayor and thank all of you thank you council member middleton are the comments this point council member council member rostner um just um kind of in response briefly um in terms of wordsmithing i guess as a threshold matter kind of my working understanding and correct me if i'm wrong madam attorney if we vote to approve these bylaws the task force does it still doesn't exist until the other bodies kind of also approve this their participation in the joint task force because i mean it can't function really without their participation so to your point about the kind of legal situation i just wanted to clarify like if we are creating a body that in theory won't have two-thirds of its members or if it won't exist until they appoint they approve their version of the bylaws and make the appropriate right okay so does that i'm just wondering if that satisfies your question about the formation thank you council i appreciate that uh actually i'm not sure if they're going to i think this is not only a question of that it's a matter of course that they will there's a question as to whether or not they even want to participate right so i guess yes so what i'm seeking to clarify is that i don't know that it exists until if and until they do so it isn't as if we're creating a body that somehow can't function uh i don't think it's actually created until those two bodies also kind of ascend to the formation of the task force right am i wrong i think the question becomes and why would we put our imprimatur on the document well i mean we can find that out before we actually vote i just think you know the weight of this body actually taking an official vote when there are still matters pending i mean we're not under anybody's clock it's a self-imposed deadline there's no case to be made for expediency why don't we just do the work dot every i cross every t and and then take a vote i mean if we if we don't pass it tonight what would what bad happens we're gonna do it we just want to get make sure the document is tight that's all i'm suggesting and i don't think that there is a if we were to delay it once like all that yet you're right this is a self-imposed deadline and i wouldn't be opposed to a delay if you're uncomfortable kind of with us moving forward tonight um i just don't think we'll know until they actually vote and so then we're in a chicken and egg of waiting for other people to vote for us to vote and then they can in theory wait for us to vote for them to vote um so i don't know that we get to the finish line at any point i will ask my second question that i'm i'm happy to i don't know they're gonna vote councilman hang on a second um in terms of the expertise issue i look i just looked at the language and you have a valid point because it does reference it does use the word expertise and i'm wondering if that word is used for other boards and commissions that also kind of call for an or eab has seats that are kind of designated for different subject matter areas um and if that language is not typically used if we could just change that to experience or something i don't know that we need to certify folks as experts to serve on this board i think there's precedent for having folks who have certain subject matter experience to occupy a certain seat and i'd be fine with kind of amending that language to reflect that if that's possible thank you anyone else at this point i just want to remember caballero thank you i just wanted to note in fact eab has mentioned that they are also a county city and when they added their seats probably about a year ago between the city and the county we both had to amend their bylaws and we did it in order like we didn't wait for the other body when it came to us we voted on it uh so i see this is a similar situation and i also am totally fine with changing the word expertise if that's what the hang up is okay um i'll just express my concern about the bylaws which is which i've expressed to my colleagues um i feel like the enumeration of the membership of the of the um of the task force is too restrictive that um to have so many of the positions enumerated as to exactly how the slots are to be filled uh my experience with that is that we get a lot of good applicants a lot of times and then we end up trying to have to slam them into uh fit them fit round pegs into square holes and that i think we ought to have a more flexible um that more of our members ought to be more i'm not against having some slots enumerated and i thought that the first pass through the bylaws uh i thought that it was about the right balance uh but i will just give an example uh one uh one of the um one of the um the the bylaws now have the council appoint two community organizers i think it's entirely possible that we might get an application from one great community organizer and one great social worker and we might think and another community organizer applicant who we don't think would add as much value to this i don't like the idea of us handcuffing ourselves in that way um and so that's my concern and i like everything else uh and i am i have a high level of comfort with us going ahead and waiting for the county or i agree with council member middleton uh they might never do but i i believe that we could go ahead pass what we think the bylaws ought to be continue the discussion that we're having with them enlist members of our community to work with our county commission to try to bring them along as well but that's my big concern i feel like the way to a much too high proportion of the 15 members are constricted in who they have to be and i'm i think that's problematic and could be fixed but just take a little time well councilor austin would it be helpful to maybe for us to wait to vote on this for to bring this back to work session for a kind of a deeper discussion and about the composition and any other pieces of the bylaws and then bring this back for our next council meeting that would be fine with me colleagues are you all okay with that mayor pro tem so my preference would be to pass it tonight just because we have community folks who've been working on this who have now been to three meetings and i not i'd rather not ask them to come to two more if folks are comfortable with changing the the makeup of the folks who are on the task force now i don't know that there are any other substantive issues that i would recommend making changes to of course other folks might feel differently the the one change to the to the makeup that i feel strongly that we should keep is that we changed from one youth to two i felt that folks made a really strong argument that just having one youth on the task force would be isolating and make it difficult for their voice to be heard and for them to fully participate we have two youth for example on our participatory budgeting steering committee and i have felt that that has worked well with regards to the others i feel more flexible about moving some of the we'd initially had one community organizer and two at large for the city and one justice involved into it large for the county i feel less strongly that those that those configurations should remain as they are but i do think that two youth is necessary we could have one of the youth appointed by one of the other bodies if we felt like we didn't want to put them if we wanted the school board to also have an at-large seat for the same reasons that you enumerated Mr. Mayor with them potentially having more applicants that they would be excited about appointing who wouldn't necessarily fit into the slots but that's the that's the one change that i that i feel that we should keep in them very open to other thoughts on the other pieces as well thank you Mr. Mayor councilmember thank you and i appreciate the mayor's protest comments i think the latter part of our comments is precisely why we should kick it back and do the words missing um and i'm i'm glad we had this meeting tonight because because we heard them we're we're actually now making more uh recommendations than if we had just passed it outright at the beginning of the meeting we wouldn't be able to incorporate that comment about the youth so again i i um and i appreciate i'm respectful of folks time coming out to these meetings and for what it's worth i think it's we're gonna pass this it's gonna it's gonna get done um again i i just think that the before we put the imprimata of this board on it and because we're not under any clock except the one imposed by ourselves let's do the work let's make the document clean and concise and not speculative um as to who's going to participate or not and and pass it can do justice to all the work that i mean so much work has gone into it thus far we're at the last yard uh we might as well make it as you know as concise and reflective of realities on the ground as possible and then do the document justice that'll be my final comment thank you very much so in light of all that's been said i i um i'm more apprehensive to move forward tonight recognizing that the county is not aboard which is news to me because i must have missed something there but um i'm also noting like from the comments i heard this evening this was really specific to especially around the community this is specific to an issue for around race and there's no aspect of race bylaws and so i'm not sure if this is meant to address the community's concern around being community health and wellness task force and hitting the root causes without saying the word black or brown or if this is actually what was presented previously which was really heavily government focused and so i'm i'm hearing that there's a medium met but if the median has been met without the county that doesn't feel actually like a medium has been met and so i'm feeling like there's more work to be done um acknowledging similarly like i support wholeheartedly having some way to some way shape and form of figuring out how to build a build a task force around um addressing these issues knowing that the long term and the short term has to be covered at the same time i'm not sure if tonight it feels like it's done hey thank you any other comments all right i'm going to um i will ask for a a nodding of the heads i'm going to suggest that we take it back to work session acknowledging that this does mean that we will have um that those residents who are concerned will have to come back to other meetings to be present but i do think that we want to get it right so i'm going to recommend that we go back to work session i do think we have some words for anything to do and i don't think we'll be able to do it well tonight is my thought i'm happy if uh if you all want to overrule me but maybe what i'll do is i'll ask for thumbs up on that and then we'll uh and then we'll make a decision can i see the thumbs uh looks like we have five or six thumbs so we will be that's the way we do it you all we do thumbs uh we actually do that a lot if you might be interested to know uh in our informal votes that we take um and so what i'm going to say then is will yes councilmember i just want to say that i do i know that the timetable isn't it's self-imposed right but i do want to say that i would like those wrapped up within the next work session and and to work we could wordsmith it to death and so i do feel that folks have been coming for almost a year asking for this now you know the first proposal we were given was last spring so i want to acknowledge the work that's been done and um we uh so happy to take it up at work session i hear all of my colleagues concerns um but i don't want to keep delaying it and if if the delay is on the county side that's fine but it's not going to be on our side thank you all right then we're going to move this back to the work session and we will expect it back on our agenda in two weeks thank you thank you all for coming to talk about this tonight members of our community and now we're going to move to our public hearing items and the first will be excuse me item 16 unified development ordinance text amendment signs and i will now hear from staff thank you very much michael stock with the planning department before i begin i would like to know that all planning department public hearing items have been notified as required now on file for review as for text amendment tc-1702 that text amendment it revises the signage regulations within article 17 science standards primarily to conform with the united states supreme court ruling and read v go read v town of gilbert other changes technical in nature were also performed um a presentation was provided at city council the last work session and a copy is included in your agenda packet primary changes include updates to the purpose statements reorganization reorganization of the article itself um new exempt temporary and permanent sign categories um and relocation of landmark signs and technical corrections within landmark sign design section as a reminder city council required to take two actions the first would be an action when the appropriate statement of consistency found in attachment a the second would be an action on the ordinance itself attachment b donald tool deputy city attorney and i will be happy to answer any questions thank you thank you very much mr stock you have heard the report from staff and i'm now going to declare this public hearing open um um and i'm going to ask first if there are questions for the staff by members of the council any questions for staff at this point just one question with the way that this sign regulation is written would i be able to place a yard sign for a summer lunch program throughout the summer at five different corner locations for the entire summer no thank you any other questions all right um i'm going to uh ask for a little discussion among the council before we hear from members of the public um i think that uh we don't usually do that you usually hear from members of the public first but i know that council members have some thoughts about this that i think that they probably want to express and um so i think we'll go ahead and do that first and i'm going to ask are there council members who have any thoughts about this that they would like to offer sure mr wayer thanks um at the risk of sounding like a broken record i'm going to at least put on the table the the option of putting this this vote off um i have complete confidence and faith in the interpretation by our staff um for uh read and trying to bring our ordinance in consistent with read um but we you know heard from our state delegation today or yes today um which just in and of itself in my experience on council is a rare occurrence um and so you know while i i want to move us in the direction of having our ordinance conform with read um it just strikes me that this might be a chance to have a little bit deeper conversation that with our delegation and with uh stakeholders just to make sure everyone is clear on what is a very messy opinion um from the united states print court um and kind of what this ordinance seeks to do and what the proposed text amendment seeks to do um and so i just put that on the table i'd like to hear from folks but i want to ask the council to consider that tonight thank you council member allison that delegation is going to be a heck of a lot better when you're a member of it which will be in the not too distant future i'm happy to say but not too near future mr may not too near future that's right also not too near future um other comments council member race oh that mr mayor oh thank you mr mayor appreciate you uh recognizing me um so uh as i think most of my colleagues know uh council member allison and i've been working uh been involved in staff efforts around this particular ordinance for the both part of the last two years um and i first of all i want to thank our staff um and our city attorney's office for um for the unbelievable amount of work that has gotten us to where we are tonight i can tell you that the city staff that have been engaged in this particular effort have um seen the um the landscape shift under their feet uh since probably around 2014 when the issue was first raised for them um and i'll i believe there was exactly one member of this council on the council at that time um and that was uh you mr mayor and uh so the our staff has had to since then deal with our changing opinions about um the issue that first brought these uh the signs the sign question uh before us which i think was the uh some of us might have been in Durham long enough to remember the nefarious like Andrew signs uh that were up on a couple of public roadways here in Durham that i think triggered some of the initial work on this and then of course um the following year 2015 the oh supreme court released its decision and read which upset the apple card and likely invalidated every signed ordinance in every community across america um and put local governments like dorms uh in a very difficult position of trying to figure out how to respond um i've read the read decision myself many times although i'm not the city attorney i am an attorney um and unfortunately my deep legal training did not allow me to penetrate read as as thoroughly as some of the other cities have on this question uh so um be that as it may with respect to the to the ordinance that's before us tonight as i said i think this is the product of significant amount of work and first of all i want to honor that uh second of all i think it's clear uh based on the communications that we've had with uh folks in our community um that there are some deep levels of concern about the impact of an ordinance like this on a number of different operate a number of different activities in our community um that benefit from the ability to place signs in the right of way and i think what the our delegation to the general assembly has called us to do in this case is to engage in work to try to balance those interests in a in a way that allows more of that activity to take place while still laboring to be as as compliant with the redecision as a local government can be given all the other decisions of the u.s supreme court on this area um and so um with respect to the to the specific request that council member alston put before us um i am open to suggestions for my colleagues about the appropriate path forward here um i think there are any number of alternatives uh but probably my preference um our planning director pat young reached out to us this afternoon in response to our delegations or our legislative delegations a letter to us uh and in his email while he did he did stand behind the work done by staff and indicated that staff was prepared to proceed as set forward in our agenda with the ordinance as proposed he did say as ever we are happy to receive alternative direction regarding next steps and we'll work with the ncga or any other party of alternatives to our proposal are sought and it seems clear that with respect to um this particular ordinance uh i sense on our board the impulse to try to find a better solution that more delicately balances all of the interests at play here and would encourage us to take our director up on his very kind offer um and would also uh in the interest of trying to accept some responsibility on behalf of elected officials on this because our staff obviously as i mentioned have been working since 2014 to try to figure out a way out of this mess uh would offer the auspices of the joint city county planning committee uh which i am currently happy to chair uh to provide a forum for those conversations um and uh if that's the will of the body thank you mr mayor thank you very much council member any other comments council member middleton thank you mr mayor and i appreciate my colleagues uh comments all of my colleagues uh i sit on the jcc pc um and i think it is an appropriate forum for this discussion i i do want to say however mr mayor that i i i'm not one i don't like to punt just for punting sake and i um i i just don't want to set the bar set the expectation i mean far more brilliant minds than mine have looked at this for a long time and we came down at least you know as i recall either letting signs along with political signs be in rights of way for a prescribed amount of time and everybody can do it or letting it be for a free for all and i i you know after all this deliberation i i didn't even hear a semblance of a variation on that that would satisfy the supreme court a ruling or that would not get us into making distinctions between commercial and non-commercial speech with that said i'm willing to have another go at it but i the staff memo was quite explicit um that they wanted us to move on to tonight they it seems at least in my reading of the memo that they've exhausted all the intellectual capital in consultation with legal experts experts looking at it but if if it's psychologically more palatable for us to have another look and to to have some more conversation i'd be more than happy to to delay it but i do not want to create the impression that we have not been racking our brains in ways to come up with an iteration that would please everybody um and that the current iteration before us represents best efforts till now maybe something special will happen um in coming days so i with that i'm i'm amenable to having jccpc take another look but i just don't want to raise the bar of expectations too high thank you mr. mayor thank you very much any other comments at this time i have a couple of comments uh i was definitely one of the people uh back in 2000 and 1415 uh extremely disturbed by the so-called nefarious sign uh i was disturbed by it for a couple of reasons not that um first of all it had although it was judged to be a temporary sign it did not feel like a temporary sign it was it felt very much in terms of time place and manner like a very permanent sign um and um um maybe you know i think that's something that any that we need to be giving some thought to but i think because of that because i and other members of the council at that time and i was the only member of the council i'm the only member of the council who was on the council at that time i'm also a lot older than the rest of you all i won't say that too not just longer serving um but that i think a lot of us felt that figuring out how to uh deal with that kind of speech was an important thing to try to do and our staff has wrestled mightily with this question and then as uh council member re said then the supreme court made the ruling and read and this just made things uh that much trickier i think where the where i feel our delegation kind of misses the point in their letter is that they talk about the fact that read does not call for changes in the way in i'm paraphrasing here in the way in which commercial speech is treated in with the in the sign ordinances but the problem is that if we're going to try to limit the kinds of things like that nefarious sign uh then that's political speech and political speech cannot be held to a and commercial speech uh it cannot be held to a a lower standard than we hold political speech to we can't be we can't be banning certain kinds of political speech and then allowing commercial speech political speech is and should be uh better protected than commercial speech and i i don't think our delegation's letter really fully grappled with that um on the other hand um i do think that i was impressed i have been impressed by the comments uh that we have heard from lots of residents um i especially i thought that uh uh planning commissioner tom miller's remarks were very valuable uh his comments the system that he described is one which is an option for us he calls it self permitting i don't know if that's a good word for it but i think the enforcement of such a system would be very problematic but i do think it's something that's worth taking a look at and so i'm going to support uh the recommendation of councilmember austin councilmember reese and uh the concurrence of councilmember middleton that we send this back to joint city county planning for another crack at it i know that uh our staff has done a tremendous amount of work on this and that this is a um this just means more work but i think it's where we are and i see mike with the shrug i know it's just because you don't have to do it mike it's dono tool it's going to do all the work so you're you're shrugging but i know you're i just email don go do it anyway so i think that's i think that's where we are uh and so mike do you have some thoughts i have no thoughts i was just approaching because you're looking at me all right councilmember austin can i just get some maybe some council from the staff or the administration on whether or not it makes the most sense to send it back to jccpc or not we're going to verify for a back administration great all right for a back to administration you all can advise yeah all right thank you uh we're i'm going to uh ask for a motion that we refer this back to the administration it's been moved in a second and we refer this back to the administration madam clerk will you please open the vote please close the vote motion passes seven zero thank you very much and thank you to mr stock mr otul all of you all have labored in the vineyard just one other example of us torturing you to death for not a very good reason uh but we are we are very grateful to you and um we'll we'll figure it out thank you so much i believe i'm now going to declare this public i'm sorry i've opened the public hearing i should definitely offer anyone there's six people that have chosen to sign up to speak you certainly don't have to speak but if you're dying to speak mr milam welcome you have three minutes mr mayor members of the city council mr city manager miss city attorney members of the public we just want to let it be known those six of us who had signed up to speak our qualm we do not have a problem with the hard work of the planning department they have done an outstanding job given the paradigm that they were given and so we want to join in your comments to them about the job they have done has been excellent our concern is that the paradigm that they were given which preceded um reed b gilbert was to get rid of that type of sign and all i ask is as long as the six of us who aren't going to speak just want to make sure that whatever future work there is that some of the stakeholders in the community whether it be pastor page on behalf of his church whether it be mr willis on behalf of civic clubs whether it be miss brooks on behalf of the realtor community whether it be mr hasbrook on behalf of the home builders some of the stakeholders also be able to be at the table of course just a request absolutely appreciate y'all's time thank you thank you mr milam and absolutely of course thank you so much this is a public hearing item is there anyone else that would like to be heard on this item miss brooks welcome you also have three minutes i'm i'm laughing right now because i worked really hard on my speech maybe you might need it again thank you uh thank you for your time last week uh thank you for the opportunity to be heard um we do want to express our gratitude to you all and to the staff um we certainly never intended for this to become contentious between our group and their group um we know that they were given a mandate and that they've carried it out we do want a voice uh we have a voice we have some opinions we know that that read versus the town of gilbert is a complicated uh ruling and uh that commercial speech and non-commercial speech and how to govern those two in the temporary signage world is is pretty difficult we just want a chance to figure it out for all of the reasons that we outlined at the planning commission meeting um and that i discussed with you all last week um and and i'll have my speech if we need another opportunity to talk about it but i'd much rather serve on a work group uh with uh the jccpc and and put our opinions and what we've learned over the last two years uh in front of you all thank you so much thank you miss briggs welcome mr smith you also have three minutes um i'm all i want to do is offer you some cough drops mr mayor i feel sorry for you coughing up there would you like them uh you're nice to offer i i get uh no thanks thank you very much thank you mr smith what a town all right well you just never know what people are going to offer thank you so much all right is there anyone else that would like to be heard on this matter if not i'm to clear this public hearing closed thank you very much we'll move on now to item 18 which is also a public hearing item and this is a coincided annexation kendrick estates good evening good evening mr others i'm emily struthers with the playing department i will now present consolidated annexation item kendrick estates this request for utility extension voluntary annexation an initial zoning map change was previously heard at the december 16th city council meeting and was continued to this evening during the time of this continuance the case was sent to chairpersons of four organizations for review and comment and planning staff provided support at meetings these included the Durham open space and trails commission environmental affairs board new hope creek corridor advisory committee and friends of hollow rock nature park additionally comments were received from the new hope autobahn society and nc wildlife resource commission uh those comments provided by these organizations are included as attachments in the staff report these organizations have identified ways for the proposed kendrick estates to more responsibly develop adjacent to the hollow rock nature park staff generally concurs with the recommendations provided and encourages the applicant to take them into consideration however there is no mechanism for text commitments to be propped in conjunction with this application since it is a request for annexation with a direct translation zoning staff also acknowledges receipt of an email from the hope creek homeowners organization this afternoon with concerns regarding stormwater that's not included in the staff report given the time that it was received an analysis of the stormwater impacts of the site has been considered uh city stormwater will require 100 year peak flow detention which is the most stringent and more stringent than county stormwater requirements should council act favorably uh approval of the annexation petition and zoning would become effective on march 31st and staff is available for any questions thank you very much mistrothers you all will remember colleagues that this is a continuation of an earlier public hearing um we have several people signed up to speak i see one proponent mr gosh i see one person listed two couple people as an opponent and several people listed as requesting delay of annexation what i'm going to do first i'm going to ask mr gosh mr gosh um how much time uh do you think you all will need and is it going to be you or do you also have other speakers that will be um mr mayor thank you um it was just me planning to speak i'm surprised to hear that there's a number of people who signed up to speak uh to request a delay or in opposition to uh so i guess what i would request is maybe to hear from them first because i think we've done a lot of work on the case since um the december hearing to hear what those concerns are it may be the case that we've addressed many of many of those concerns already um so maybe hear from them first and i'm going to ask you mr go here's what i'm going to do uh i'm going to ask you first in a minute if you have any remarks that you'd like to make uh just as an introduction then i'm going to give the people who other people have signed up an opportunity to each speak for three minutes and then after that i'm going to offer you an opportunity to respond to any of those concerns that they raise does that sound good to you yeah that sounds fine perfect do you want to go ahead then and make any introductory remarks that you would like to make sure yeah uh i'll thank staff for their staff report and introduction this time as was mentioned this case came before you all in december so just at the end of last year and at that hearing you all requested that we take this case in front of different advisory boards which hadn't seen the case at that time to get feedback from them and to work with them and we did in fact do that and also we have met with neighbors um in the solitaire neighborhood and and in surrounding areas about the case since then and have uh made well i should i should be careful using the word commitment here because as you know this is an annexation and so any commitments that are made are obviously not ones which um are of the type that the city can enforce however bigger residential is committed to one this project and two the Durham community generally uh and their reputation and mine is on the line and uh i trust you know that i'm not going anywhere uh and neither is baker residential and so the commitments they made they do take very seriously and they've made a number of of those commitments to the neighbors um and those commitments include well those commitments are responsive to the feedback that we've gotten throughout this process uh one of those for example was uh related to the use of uh full cutoff lighting and um and uh motion sensors so baker has committed to um applying with duke to get those full cutoff short pole lightings uh which are you know required lighting required outdoor lighting by the udo but that's also less invasive than um street lights which don't have that full cutoff shielding additionally baker has agreed to to provide in its um covenants and and bylaws uh literature and suggestions related to using um motion sensors for lighting so that you have less for outdoor lighting so that you have less interference with wildlife generally so the lights aren't always on that they would come on with with a motion sensor one of the other piece of feedback we got was that we should use native plantings and baker residential has committed to using native plantings in uh in its community there was also a lot of talk about the connection to the park um and that connection has not been fully designed but we understand the feedback is basically to provide a connection which will not require an extensive amount of ongoing maintenance and whether that's a hardscape or a combination of hardscape and and uh you know softscape it remains to be seen but we are we are we have that feedback we are working with that with staff to get that type of a connection built uh there's a lot of great to make up there so that's another uh concern uh additionally we've agreed to have in the covenants a a rule similar to that which can be found in the solitaire neighborhood related to the use of persistent pesticides and herbicides um and so the that will be something that will be incorporated in the covenants for the neighborhood one of the piece of feedback we got related to providing a fence between um the park and and the uh and the neighborhood and this is one where I don't know that we we saw eye to eye exactly on it uh understand definitely and appreciate the concern with uh preventing um social trails and and that type of thing uh from happening into the park from the neighborhood right now what Baker residential is looking at is providing a uh clear demarcation of where the property line is so that is people are very aware of where where the neighborhood ends and where the park begins additionally to help prevent that social trail there will be of course the the trail had provided in the neighborhood but signage directing people throughout there so wayfinding signage in the neighborhood and also um covenants would speak to uh not dumping in the required buffer um one of the other things and I think it was just mentioned is we've heard a lot of talk about uh environmental concerns especially with runoff and the Dermudio requires the developer to control for the the one two and ten year storm and on our next recent middle we've already drawn it up in fact uh the plan is to also increase our storm water control so that it will it will handle the 100 year storm as well and I'm not an engineer so I'm going to say presumably anything under that but technically speaking it is the one two ten and 100 year storm events I don't know how those devices work but um that is a significant increase in storm water controls uh and one which we anticipate is going to have a benefit downstream um I think I'll leave it there for now and wait to hear from the rest of the uh speakers thank you thank you Mr. Gage and I'll give you time um after uh we hear from uh the other speakers all right uh we have a number of speakers who've signed up and I'm going to call them in order uh first we have Kerry Bishop Coon second we have Scott Sunseth and third we have Paul Lindia and if I'll begin with those three and if you all could please come over here to my right uh and uh line up over here thank you so much and the uh first speaker we're going to hear from is Kerry Bishop Coon welcome Ms. Bishop Coon and you have three minutes thank you um my name is Kerry Bishop Coon and I live at 4 Moon Valley tonight I'm representing the Friends of Hollerach Nature Park and we are one of the reports that was requested to provide feedback in regards to the impact on this development into the park and um in ways that we can support um the park and the longevity and sustainability of the park so on behalf of the Friends of Hollerach Nature Park we believe the location of this development adjoining um Hollerach Nature Park requires thoughtful consideration during the construction and the building process to protect the park for future generations and we encourage big residential to be good neighbors to not only to New Hope Nature Park but to the citizens of Durham with decisions that will protect our community's public resource and public space for generations to come um our recommendation at this time due to the current level of ambiguity surrounding the public access um mitigation of human impact and um biodiversity within the park we are unable to recommend annexation for Kendrick estate subdivision project and request that um Durham City Council vote now on the proposal we're willing to reconsider and once we gain additional clarity so that what we'd like to do is ask City Council to help clear clear up this area of ambiguity before voting um one area has to do with that public access um through Kendrick estates into Hollerach Nature Park um the easement within that tract of land provides for tree trails and both of them are located adjacent to some wetlands dust has recommended that they be consolidated into one area that right now the current site has um hasn't been updated and we don't have a design about that public access point so it's really it still remains quite unclear the one thing we do know is that because um Baker residential has proposed the use of a high impact development model there's going to be result in significant clearing and degradation of the land so the proposed access point now will be raised 16 above the park floor and it's going to be extremely steep to um get from where they've got 16 foot at the top all the way down and we don't know what that's going to look like and with that in mind we want to make sure that this one not the two but now that's consolidated into into one that access point is sustainable and that it's safe and that it's accessible to the public for use now and for in the future and that also that it doesn't create additional cost and expenses for the city of Durham as they're maintaining that hurt the sort of that goes back to back to that because there's just only this one particular access point um we're looking at the fact that this is an upheld development and right now there's a 30 foot buffer so we really do believe that having a significant um barrier is important thank you miss bishop good thank you our next speaker will be scott sunseth welcome mr sunseth you also have three minutes thank you i'm a powerpoint presentation i like to say uh first of all i am one of the homeowners that you'll see identified in the following photos and videos um i'm colloquially referred to as homeowner number one so there's two main points we like to make for unite number one is that we have an existing ongoing almost two decades stormwater drainage problem in our subdivision i'm going to show you photographic and video evidence of that and number two that we think the kendrick estates development as it's been designed will only exacerbate that situation and make a bad situation worse so let me orient you here's um the kendrick estates development this is trinity school right here and our homes of butt our backyards of butt up to trinity school uh this is another view the drainage comes under the road right here under picket road it follows a natural channel it goes under the road at trinity school right here you can see this open section here i'll show you that in just a second and then it hits my backyard right about this point here uh here's a picture of the stormwater channel as it goes under the trinity school you see these three large culverts and you'll notice that the channel here is deep and wide it's adequately designed to handle amount of stormwater that comes through it unfortunately when it reaches my backyard i'm standing on my back deck right here you can see these two streams coming together that are overflowing um this is stormwater on may 6 2004 shortly after i moved into the subdivision i moved in in august of 2003 we had a couple storms i finally decided i better start documenting this with some photographic evidence um and then you'll see the same area here to orient you this little tree here is the same as this large tree here 16 years later this footbridge you'll see is a landmark and several of these photos you can see the amount of stormwater coming down through here this is egressing into my yard it leaves a lot of debris it's a road to the yard i can't grow anything there and uh it's just really destroying the property value um this is looking west from my backyard the same deck you'll see that the channel here flattens out considerably there's no slope it broadens it's called an undefined channel and the water now instead of rushing along as you saw in that earlier photo spreads out and into the yards causing pooling and stagnation that you'll hear about in some of the other photos this is the last video i'd like to show you and if a picture is worth a thousand words i think the video should be worth about 10 000 see that bridge that i told you was a landmark come up in just a second here you can see we've got between class two and three whitewater rapids forming right under that bridge you can see the amount of water and debris that comes into my yard the erosion has been going on for 16 years um again this is a problem it's only going to get worse next speaker thank you mr. lindia um the next person on my list is actually i'm sorry that was mr. son said that's mr. son said i'm sorry this is mr. lindia thank you um welcome please give us your name and address and you have three minutes thank you my name is paul lindia i live at 43 16 forest edge trail and house number three um this first slide here you'll see water nearly filled the backyard and destroying landscaping this similar views here also show water up to the screen porch structure this video shows what occurs with the channel pictured on the right when heavy rains occur and here you see the depth of stormwater debris in the backyard to protect the home from stormwater the yard here has been raised two feet with a retaining wall that will be added to keep the raised area from being lost to stormwater flooding 14 years after moving into the home homeowner one continues to experience a channel that does not contain stormwater here you see a channel near the entrance to the school that is sufficiently wide to contain the flow but the channel narrows and then empties into an undefined channel behind our homes these are more views of water outside of the swale behind our homes this video shows stormwater sources converging with the portion on the right coming from the part of the neighborhood and the portion on the left coming from the off site the extreme volume of offsite water at the forest often completely overflows the neighborhood drain pipe and the drain pipe cannot even be seen here the quality and the veracity of the stormwater passing through our backyards is so forceful that it can move heavy objects a long way like the cinder block that has carried a length of a half of a football field finally here you see a maintenance challenge where deck posts cannot be hold paint due to persistent moisture on the ground thank you thank you mr. lindia our next speaker is caren lindia thank you thank you for coming tonight please give us your name and address and you also have three minutes do i get my slide up i'm sorry can i get my slide up it's oh yeah it's coming back up okay thank you hi i'm caren lindia also at 4316 forest edge trail um what you see here shows the current stormwater flow from um kendricka states and its current undeveloped status about half of that water is going through trinity school in our backyards the other half through hollow rock park in this as is state you have seen that we have significant problems with stagnation and saturation and with post drain ponding persisting for two to three days sometimes this shows what is proposed sorry for kendricka states with all of their stormwater being planned to come our direction in addition to adjacent acreage um surrounding their property we understand that they plan a 100 year detention pond and their peak flow rate will not increase the flow rate we experience now from other sources in the absence of final information about the extent to which trinity school plans to improve the swell on their property however these variables do not sufficiently mitigate our concerns about greater volume being released over longer periods of time the assertion we have heard that there will be no net impact seems impossible based on current information we have we have been negatively impacted by upstream stormwater for a long time we are not against the annexation and development of kendricka states we have communicated with trinity school many of us have relationships with the school and we understand that they're working with macadams engineering to consider redesign options for the swale and school property we have not been successful in efforts to meet with baker residential or macadams we don't have the information needed for us to be confident of resolution and a long-term effective strategy city council members we respectfully ask that you defer annexation of kendricka states until the parties can work together along with a city engineer in order to solve our ongoing problems and ensure that new ones are not created we also ask all of kendricka that all of kendricka state stormwater be directed toward hollerock park and i'd like to ask mr others i may not have heard this but um we did email the city council a letter uh last week and i did not hear mention of that as being in the record thank you thank you miss lindia our next speaker is tiffany freeson miss lindy we will get a answer to your question thank you miss freeson uh please give us your name and address new of three minutes okay thank you hello i'm tiffany freeson and i'm the tenant of the 4313 branch would drive property owner who is my brother i spoke at the december city council meeting regarding the stormwater issues near my home because i was concerned more development nearby without assessing this existing issue you just viewed on the power point and solving it will make it worse if no remediation is done to the existing offsite stormwater channel near these homes the situation will get worse if this channel receives additional water from kendricka states further improvements will be needed especially in the forested area that delivers the off-site stormwater to new hope creek if the developer of kendricka states wants to use this above ground channel that ends behind our homes to send additional stormwater to new hope creek and please require those benefiting to participate in the cost of upgrading the channel at the suggestion of the developers the homeowners did reach out on january 31st to schedule a meeting with the developers their engineering firm and the city engineer to discuss our concerns about stormwater the developer responded on february 3rd to us they were further looking into this which i trust they are but we have not heard back from them on this matter the situation requires the city to consider the needs of all properties hope creek trinity school kendricka states properties adjacent to kendricka states solterra and hollow rock park in this region as they consider the best long-term solution for everyone for stormwater management of kendricka states along with my neighbors i ask city council to defer annexation until more analysis is done in concerns of property owners who would be adversely affected by this are fully resolved thank you for the opportunity to be heard thank you miss recent our next speaker is cumbers climb thank you mr climb please give us your name and address as well and you have three minutes thank you my name is cumbers climb i am the president of the hope creek homeowners association i've resided 4203 forestage trail i'm talking to you on behalf of 106 homeowners in the hope creek owner homeowners association would like the city council to urge at least delay of the vote on this development until some of these issues with stormwater and some traffic issues that i'm going to talk about briefly are addressed as you're as you're aware this is a 21 acre plot of land 50 percent of the land excuse me 50 percent of the stormwater i believe drains into the the hope creeks uh artsgiving hollow rock park and 50 percent drains into the swell that borders are the north part of our property and as such as you've seen in these videos here um are some of our homeowners at the northern end of the of the uh of the development have experienced a great deal of stormwater already and if they're proposing to increase uh the amount of water that's going to be coming through there it's going to only make things worse it's true that the hundred the the 100 year retention pond is probably a good idea to address peak flow water but it probably does very little to reduce the total water around because eventually that water will come down into the swell between ternity and the hope creek development we fear in addition that it's possible that the other homes across the eastern part of our or excuse me the western part of our development may also experience the same types of problems with water with this increased flow the second concern we have relates more to traffic as you're well aware of in this in this design uh the egress and and and access to this development opens up on to randolph on randolph road i believe based on at least the city planners estimations that there's going to be at least 450 cars that are going to be traveling in 24 hour period the southbound lane of randolph road at present is very backed up and it's very likely that it may require either a traffic circle or even stoplight to manage the traffic from this development we think that at least the current plant has not really adequately addressed this issue and we urge the city council to at least look at this in further detail before proceeding with a yes or no vote thank you thank you mr kline our next speaker is spencer jennings thank you very much i live on 3612 randolph road also owned a lot 3614 we are on the direct southern side of the property development done by kendrick or proposed by kendrick states um we purchased the property back in 2005 with the intent of creating a building lot on the on the back side of that property and our concern now basically as the previous speakers have said is that the amount of water that's going to be on the property is going to have a negative impact i think on the value of the property or the sustainability or the value of the property as a buildable lot some of the same concerns that these current residents have are the same concern i'd have if i were to you know to go forward and to build on that property um so my concern follows along with them that uh uh the decision to annex be deferred at least until all the parties have gotten their issues resolved and look at maybe other possible ways of handling the storm water um i have had conversations with both the engineers the developer the city planners and they've all been very thoughtful and helpful um and i do understand that the storm water is you know largely going to be contained as far as the flow the peak flow volumes it's just the volume is my big concern and just the period of time that the water is going to sit on the property um you might have a flow that might last a day or so now it's going to be about three times that i'm out so that's my concern is just the the potential impact to the value of the property and just the the nuisance value of having water on the property for that period of time thank you very much thank you so we've reached the end of our speakers mr gosh if you'd like to come back up and provide us with any additional information thank you mayor pro tem johnson um yeah i wanted to discuss a or respond to some of the things you just heard one of them was about the public access and and i think the concern was that the design for it is unclear and i would agree that the design for it has not yet been completed um and it won't be completed until we get to construction drawings and site plans so i don't know what level of certainty we can provide ahead of that but as i said the the feedback that we've gotten with respect to providing that access in a sustainable low maintenance way has has been received and that is something we're working on with your staff to provide that type of access but i will tell you that we don't know exactly what it will look like and we will not know that for a while um you saw a lot about drainage problems and and stormwater issues that are existing and that that is one of the points uh i i understand that that doesn't you know that doesn't help necessarily with that problem but the point is there are some existing drainage problems that the kinderick estates project is not going to be able to uh help mitigate now it what it will do is not make that worse and that's what it's required to do and that and it's required to do that as i said for the one two and ten year storm and in this case baker residential is also going to be upsizing its stormwater controls to handle the hundred year storm and this should be a significant uh increase or a significant improvement over what is already required now there was also a lot of talk and i think you heard it um about the problems existing at the trinity school development and we agree there is a problem there but it also is not a problem on property that we're talking about or property that we control now the neighbors mentioned and and i also am aware that the school has retained macadams uh to work on that so macadams is working on a new design for that channel i don't know what that's what it will look like and when it will happen but that is something that the school actively is working on right now and i know that your stormwater engineer uh mr erwin has been involved in that project as well so there should be some improvements there in the pipeline but to the extent those problems already exist it is not something that baker residential uh has a whole lot of ability to help at this point um one of the one of the suggestion was to direct all stormwater to the haul rock nature park and i we think that's a bad idea uh and that's exactly why we didn't design the site that way and it also is it contradicts a lot of the information and a lot of the feedback that we've gotten from the city staff and from the haul rock nature park the different groups that that are working with the haul rock nature park so i don't think that's really a viable option i don't think it's a good option but we are going to as i said be upsizing our stormwater controls to handle a hundred-year storm um as far as traffic uh this development is not very big and it it is not even close to uh moving the needle for um like a traffic impact analysis or traffic study something like that the existing traffic on randolph road in fact is is below the the uh current capacity for it that's not to say that there aren't a lot of cars on randolph road there are but uh by design that the road can already handle that traffic and also the traffic from our project we think the traffic is adequately handled on the project as is and then you also heard from mr jennings um who has who owns the property directly south of the kindrick estate's property and we've looked at his property and have had conversations with him as as you've heard um my understanding is that there is already a buffer stream on that property that has really nothing to do with what's going on in the kindrick states that property is wet and it will be wet and there's nothing you can do to not make it wet uh i understand that he bought it and was hoping to build on it and i'm not saying it's not buildable but it certainly will be difficult given how wet it is already again we don't think we're causing any additional harm to that property especially with the proffers on uh stormwater and stormwater commitments we're making thank you i know my time is up thank you mr gosh uh we've had one additional opponent sign up to speak mr john kent thank you please give us your name and address and you have three minutes uh my name is john kent i live at 394 cub creek road in chapel hill and uh i am i wear two hats actually three i've done stream watch a new hope creek for years i'm a board member of new hope waterman society and i'm a technical advisor to the new hope creek corridor advisory committee i want to say it um i it's mixed what my feelings are on this um we have made uh we have had several meetings with uh developers and i think on light pollution native plants pesticides um uh and some limiting the trail connection to one from two we've made sir would you pull back from the microphone just a little bit be better to hear you it's too far back or there's a sweet spot right there that's okay you got it okay so um we i know what the the corridor committee met on this last week and uh we had hoped to see something i think everybody uh well we we'd hope to see some change in the site plan uh regarding the trail connection on road a which is the one to the north off randolph road into the nature park and we haven't seen that and then uh most everybody wants some kind of physical barrier between the um this is on the west side of the property only um on um to between the nature park and the housing development uh where exactly that is going to be is still still unknown um so at solterra there was also a neighborhood meeting and i attended and the developers um uh mark and and um derrick brad yes we're there and uh they they did mention putting up a fence actually on the park boundary and i believe it was mentioned six feet standard one our uh code won't allow over eight feet uh but uh we didn't see any of that as we got a written response to the corridor committee letter so those are still outstanding and i i would i would urge you to vote no tonight and postpone this a little bit more till we get those issues resolved thank you thank you mr kent is there anyone else who would like to speak on this item this evening yeah mr gosh you um have an additional 14 minutes of time to provide you with equal time for the with the opponents um but if there are any additional speakers other than mr gosh get to hear them first all right great mr gosh you oh i'm sorry there's would you like to speak okay can you tell us are you a proponent or an opponent i'm a proponent i don't believe that this estate should be built um i'm sorry hold on that that's an opponent opponent fantastic great that's the dyslexia speaking and when you're done speaking if you could go fill out a yellow card with a clerk that would be great my pleasure thank you guys so much for having me please give us your name and address and you have three minutes yes my name is roman Jennings i'm actually a spencer Jennings son i live at 361 to Randolph road and our property is adjacent to this proposed housing unit um i grew up on the property um i used to play in these woods i know them very very well and um i think uh the wildlife situation um would of course be hurt by this whole system and i think um some of the arguments here tonight were a little bit disappointing to hear um i think we need to really address the concern about some of these neighborhoods previous planning as we see a result with poor neighborhood planning we see results of situations where runoff goes unexpected ways um we have poor water control so my point is if we don't pay attention to the past and how if we we're not paying attention to how the water runoff is really designed um we can run into another situation if not worse um they of course speak about the idea that we're not going to make it worse and i'm sure that during the previous neighborhoods installation that same argument could have applied because there are so many unknowns in that um and i really do think that it's a very important point that we understand the ramifications of installing a property where it's at with the uh with the knowledge that we have about how the water situation is being handled and then putting an adequate solution an adequate knowledge base of what that's going to be um not because it's going to make my poor little neighborhood uh you know feel bad it's just i think that it's really important to be consistent in how we go about um putting in developments i think this sets precedent for future neighborhoods being installed in Durham um and i think it's important to pay attention to for people with this in the future so thank you guys for having me and um i really hope we can come to a good resolution here thank you um so the proponents now have an additional 17 minutes we would love it if you didn't use all of it but it is available to you if you need it i'll use all of it use as much as you like um i'm gonna pull the document you know how to do things and does the mouse work maybe not um it's easier i orient it correctly okay um so this is the Kendrick estate's neighborhood here that we're looking at and this is the trinity school you can see the floodplain area and the flood areas on this map that are existing and you can see many of the homes uh in this neighborhood just south of the school back up to it now this is where you're getting a lot of the stormwater issues that exist today and it's not surprising now you also have an issue with the way that stormwater is today oh thank you Vivian sorry it's much nicer um there also is an issue as has been noted with the way the stormwater is conveyed from the school that's also causing an additional issue with stormwater here so i just wanted to point that out um just so you can get an idea of how wet this area is now this document is just an exhibit that shows uh some of the buffering um that's being uh provided uh i don't know if you can read that very clearly but um i know i can't so the required undisturbed buffer area is about 3.2 acres and what's being reposed on the site plan is about 1.91 additional acres of undisturbed well i'm i'm afraid i'm just going to be so i'm going to put this mic down um so you know there what we're talking about here i think is a very respectful development and one which has taken into account a lot of the feedback that we have got i want to say thank you to mr kent for coming up here in my haste earlier i did forget to mention uh what Baker residential was proposing as far as offense we've gotten a lot of feedback and i will say conflicting information on whether offense is a good idea here given that it's an age recorder but there also seems to be a lot of good reasons to have offense and so Baker residential uh is committing to putting a fence on the property line essentially and that that fence so between the development in the park um a six foot tall fence that would be that black rod iron a five foot i'm sorry five foot tall fence that would be that rod iron looking fence and that will prevent um you know the social trails from being formed from the neighborhood into the park which i know is a maintenance issue for the parks and uh and i apologize for having left that out earlier i'm not going to take up all of this time at all but i you know i think what i want i just want to be very clear i understand that there's a lot of concerns a lot of eyes on this but i don't want you to get the impression that Baker residential has not paid attention to that and has not in good faith tried to make a good development better uh there have been a lot of proffers added to this um which i know is a little bit hard to uh stomach in in that this is an annexation but Baker residential is committed uh to to uh to providing a good community and in being in Durham this is not going to be their last project here um oh just one other note this so the site plan i think there was some questions about how that connection would be shown to the park there's not i mean the site plan is never going to show a lot of detail on that the connection is is here that's the connection and on a site plan that's the detail that you're getting there so in that cul-de-sac that would be all um public right of way and that's going to be maintained by the city after that it's going to be maintained by the HOA so you know again from a maintenance standpoint uh we hear it loud and clear that that we want a low maintenance type of item there uh especially because the HOA is going to be somewhat responsible for the maintenance of it so we're trying to develop a connection there that's going to be very nice and one that's not going to require a whole lot of maintenance and one that's not going to get washed out continually and constantly thank you very much i'm happy to answer any questions that you have and hopefully you could support this uh annexation tonight thank you mr goodie should we put that other picture back up uh with the floodplain there you go is there anyone else who would like to speak on this item this public hearing item tonight yes ma'am different yeah if you've already spoken then yeah that's all sorry about that all right so i'm gonna declare the public hearing closed and the matter is now back before the council is there any council members who would like to come to my vocabulary i just have a question because my understanding of proffer is different and maybe i've just interpreted that different i've heard the word proffer twice and in previous meetings when someone is proffered then it becomes text and as part of the deal essentially so any commitments made would not be enforceable by us as this is an annexation we don't have a development plan where you would be able to make those proffers what's being offered is technically not a proffer then right thank you it's just a promise yes thank you thank you yeah i was hoping to was that i was hoping to hear from mr gosh about that issue and i'll just be a little more direct mr gosh i heard use the word commits committed is committing on behalf of your um what does that mean to us given the context for it well it doesn't mean that it's something that's enforceable by the city and i and i explained that at the very beginning of my presentation there's not a tool here available to us it's annexation to to provide those proffers nevertheless this is what a baker residential has told the neighbors and and many of the advisory boards that it is it is going to accomplish on the project it is a promise and if it's one that they don't keep that would be very unfortunate both for them and for the city but it's also you know it's also one that the city would never allow a developer to make twice um and baker residential is committed to this project and is committed to being in Durham long term so i recognize that there is some you know there's some discomfort with making any type of commitment on this project because the city has no ability enforce those commitments however i'm asking you to put your trust in baker residential to to implement these promises that they've made and their promises that we think are a good idea the people who have given that many of the neighbors who live here have given those ideas based on their experience living there and when we have looked at them and and thought about how that would impact the property they all sound like really great ideas actually they all you know using native plantings not having invasive lighting all this sounds like great ideas and things that that baker residential is happy to implement especially if it's something that the neighbors are asking for and something that will make them happy um i don't know what else to tell you on that other than that i believe that baker residential is going to be doing these and and uh and definitely is committed to doing them for this project thank you mayor thank you madam mayor pro tem and thank you for presiding um i would like to hear from a member of a representative of the developer other than mr. gosh who might comment on the question that councilmember reese asked regarding the commitments that you all are making uh yes mark bowls with um baker residential mr. mayor could you repeat the question or sure this is one so you all the week we had a letter listing the commitments that you all had made the promises were correct i believe it was dated thursday of last week yes and um it did not include the um the fence that the five foot fence that mr. gosh you just mentioned i would be happy to reissue that letter with the change to it and um your um you've heard uh councilmember reese ask uh do you have any other comments in terms of uh let me put it like this usually in these situations when we're we're going to rezoning there's a development plan and that kind of thing and we can be assured that these are commitments that are enforceable by the city what kind of comfort level can you give us mr mr. gosh has already given us his thoughts but what kind of comfort level can you give us uh that if we were to approve this annexation uh that you all would indeed do the kind of blading that you've talked about doing provide the kind of trail entrance that you've talked about uh park entrance that you've talked about provide the five foot fence on the west side and so forth could you uh could you just speak to that uh well as mr. gosh said we um we would intend to do more business in Durham um i mean i personally wouldn't stand up here and tell you something i didn't intend to do and corporately we don't intend to do that either um again if we if we tell you we're going to do it and we don't do it then our reputation is shot and that's one of the most important things for business to have reputation that they do what they say um and so i think it's really i mean we we've been uh doing business in the triangle for over a decade and would like to do so for the next 20 30 very long time in the future and and we need to abide by our agreements if we're going to do that i have one more question sure thank you very much my other question is for mr. others uh or for uh someone in the administration could you speak to the the stormwater issue you mentioned it in your original uh you mentioned it in your original comments uh but uh mr. yang uh we've heard from the folks uh in a nearby neighborhood that and seen the very real problem that they've got with stormwater runoff in their neighborhood uh i see this floodplain map uh which is uh very uh also very uh important you know illustrative um the developer is saying that they will provide a 100 year floodplain or rather uh stormwater treatment and i wondered if you could comment on that relative to the concerns of this neighborhood sure thank you mr. mayor and members of council good evening pat young with the planning department um start for the record with the fact that i am not a professional engineer not a stormwater engineer uh but i have been working 25 years professionally in the field and had a an hour long conversation with michael urwin who's our staff engineer uh with the public works department who's been on site and has been referenced by the applicant and some of the neighbors in this conversation who's analyzed this issue extensively he was not able to be here tonight so i am speaking on his behalf um he did verify for us and mr. others was part of that conversation he did verify for us that there is indeed a um existing drainage concern at the rear the north end of the hope creek um subdivision the hope creek subdivision was developed in the early 1990s prior to the advent of um current stormwater control rules and standards that were from the early 2000s 2002-2003 so the fundamental problem that exists that you the neighbors characterized and showed is really a matter of kind of in a design that was inadequate to manage um offsite stormwater which was very common at the time and really any development prior to about 2002 or 2003 um many developments throughout the community as i think you all are well aware have a a similar set of issues because they were not stormwater issues were not required to be incorporated as they are today so what i can say is um in addition to that is what is being required of the applicant mr. ghost made it sound like a voluntary offer that the city staff will enforce and require a 100-year on-site uh detention of the peak flow from 100-year storm so what that is very likely to do currently stormwater is running um the site's not developed but it's running uncontrolled off of that site so having this very large sophisticated engineered device should slow down the the peaking and the rate of flow to that location that was depicted in the video and on the pictures but the total volume as was stated by the opponent um will ultimately end up in that low spot because of the fact that there is not a conveyance from the trinity school site to the floodplain um the swamp area to the west adjacent um as you heard uh applicant um referred to there is currently um trinity school is doing some modest improvements in the rear of their property they are in essentially what amounts to negotiations we cannot require them uh to complete that conveyance um from their uh property over to the floodplain area which would dramatically significantly reduce this this flooding issue um but really there's no mechanism to require this applicant to contribute to that or to mitigate this existing problem um so does that does that address your concern very much so thank you appreciate the information sir thank you mr. mayor are there any other questions or comments from council members i have a question for pat sure thank you madam mayor pro tem so just just very directly in your professional assessment because the staff is recommending that we approve this annexation is it safe to assume then that the the representations that the developer have made to mitigate um stormwater issues is is sufficient uh to address your concern in other words it won't exist will it or will not exacerbate the the already existing problem what i think has been documented already exist right so the um the the peaking so that you saw some of these um videos and pictures where there were rapids and very large volumes of water coming through and causing um scouring and abrasion and um moving debris that should be reduced and improved the total volume of water will will be at least somewhat higher if uh trinity school or some other party does not create a conveyance from the current terminal point on the trinity site over to the floodplain to the east so i'm i'm not trying to be evasive it will improve it in some ways but it will be uh the volume of water that will be standing if it's not mitigated by trinity school would be or some other party would be somewhat higher because the total runoff from the site would be greater something i will remind council that i think is very important here and has not been mentioned tonight is that this property is currently in Durham county's owned rs 20 uh it could be developed at a lower density so a lower number of units this 20 acre site i think a reasonable number that would of larger lot developments that could be on septic tank or some other onsite treatment would be 12 to 15 at the most um but that the county only requires a one year um storm detention which is really just a dry pond or some kind of very modest um swale or device that would not um it provide anywhere near the level of treatment that's being proposed by the applicant so i just so it's clear for all including you all that this property could be developed in the county uh with less homes but with a much much lower level of stormwater treatment does that make sense does it's helpful um so it could it could make it better but it might it will make it better in in some ways in terms of the scouring the the at the rapid flow of the water the total volume of water will be will be greater and i think again that's true for anytime that land is developed more water is running off of it um and so again i think we certainly as staff are concerned because every development prior to about 2002 um has uh some deficiencies uh in terms of stormwater convenience and treatment that we we um i think we understand as a community that we need to work where we can to mitigate and improve these situations but that um it's it's difficult to put that entire burden on each upstream developer nor canalina law allows uh when water runs one direction nor canalina law allows that water to continue to run that direction after development if that makes sense yes so we're we're we'd be concerned about setting a precedent where um it's the sole responsibility of this offsite party to mitigate an existing condition so i guess colleagues the issue or struggle for me is is i think the first line of the uh um the medical oath is first do no harm um i i we of course don't want to approve development that will will cause harm to those around them um around the development i guess the question for me is however we we applying that principle i mean i i this development may in theory affect some homeowners physical property and i guess the larger application the principle for me is that now i would like to not approve developments that further gentrification the whole for whole neighborhoods and and what how do you what standard if we're going to employ that standard to protect um the physical property of some homeowners um notwithstanding that some some proffers or or promises have been made that our staff thinks would would address those issues and could potentially mitigate you know what what about not approving developments that that does damage that's not physical in nature but you know neighborhood changing in nature um and developers you know have the right to do business and and and we we approve developments all the time um i guess for me is the question do i believe this this developer uh will do what they say i you know i i think there's a compelling case that if they don't that's probably the that's certainly in the in me voting for anything else they do uh in Durham um and and secondly given the the free existent problems which i think were documented and the staff's uh uh satisfaction if you will or the threshold being crossed with the staff uh to approve the development um and again hearing the the the planned mitigation efforts uh what and i appreciate the developer will reissue the letter including the fence um i'm i'm teetering i'm i'm i'm i'm inclined to approve it but i do i am concerned about um exacerbating a pre-existing issue but i'm also concerned about the ability to apply that to other developments uh that i that i think a we may feel that have impacts on neighborhoods that we approve routinely um you know it may not and for for far many more people than a few homeowners who's supposed to be in washed out we're talking about the character of whole neighborhoods so i um you know in times like this i i we've got an incredible staff i i tend to defer the staff in in when there's uh issues like this and and i um i take what the developer said at phase value and and if the mitigation efforts are going to be carried out with respect to stormwater i'm leaning toward approving it but i'm i'm interested in hearing from my colleagues on this one i'm i haven't put an exclamation point on it yet thank you mr mayor thank you madam mayor vote to thank you council member middleton mayor shul thank you um i want to first thank my colleagues for urging us to hold this last time i was definitely ready to vote once again i was wrong so thank you all for pushing us to keep the public hearing open you're allowed one you're allowed one a year mr mayor that was okay go again um because i think we've definitely got a better a much better outcome um than we would have had um if we had not held it so again appreciative um i think that as i read the concerns of dos the uh new hope autobahn the friends of the park eab um environmental affairs board they all had various concerns and all urged a wall between the park and the the development um and when i read the letter and when again heard uh john kent's comments earlier uh this confirmed for me that the developer had met all of the concerns of those organizations that we asked them that we asked to look at it around native plants maximizing vegetation to buffer buffer uh lighting and so forth with the exception of the agreement to build a fence uh which mr kent referred to uh but now the developer has promised to build this fence uh and i think that in terms of the organizations that we approached to comment they have i think fulfilled all of the uh they've met all of the concerns that were expressed and it was really good to have those concerns expressed by those groups um i do want to i'm glad that they the developers decided to promise that this fence i do want to say something about social trails there is been a lot of concern about the groups the eab and so forth about social trails and the creation of trails into the park that would not be that would that are not planned for the park i do want to point out an interesting irony i would say the number one issue in our region right now in terms of parks is people and and and and uh trails is the people who are adamant the environmentalists who are absolutely adamant that we keep those social trails on the airport land um social trails are an an interesting issue um and i don't think that uh you know the there's this promise to build the fence uh but i just want to say that i've seen the defense of social trails the uh the the incredibly powerful defense of social trails um from a whole another camp of people so just a comment um i think that where i come down on the stormwater situation is this i'm very i i can really understand the concerns of the neighbors and appreciative of you all bringing us those concerns um and the the videos are very uh powerful testimony about the uh stormwater that you all are facing i think that as i see it there are a couple of options for the developer one is the annexation in which case there will be the enforcement of the 100-year storm catchment the other option and more homes the other option is that there will be eventually this this this area will be built on septic and there will be fewer homes but there will also be uh as miss young pointed out that the county only enforces the one-year stormwater runoff and so i think that given that and i understand um yeah so i think given that that i think that overall for the stormwater situation that you all are facing this is probably a better result um we don't know when it would be was developed later on septic but i think that's certainly it's sure to come i do think there's another important advantage of this that has nothing to do with you all or anything to do with um anyone that lives there now which is that a couple different things one is it's by annexing we need housing supply and as a community and by annexing there will be more housing supply which is an important need that we have it helps keep our housing affordability it's important aspect of housing affordability and the other thing is that this is a wonderful park and um we need it's it's good to have more people living in this kind of proximity to this park and i think that's it's the same as i feel like about central park downtown um that we've added a lot of density around central park downtown and it contributes to the number of people are able to enjoy it so i think that that is something that is also advantageous about this i do have one question for the developer um would you be willing to um provide the off-site improvement at trinity school or contribute to that improvement to reduce the runoff from the trinity school area mayor schul what type of contribution i mean i'm i'm clear financial a financial contribution to the school's i could current plans i'm you know mr gosh these aren't committed elements we know that they're all making promises so here's what i'm asking you if trinity school is making improvements or is considering making improvements to its drainage channel the channel that we saw in the video in order to reduce this runoff and that we know that the total volume of water coming off of kendrick although not the peak flow would be larger would be more significant given this given the development would you all be willing to make a financial contribution should trinity school go forward with this with this redevelopment with this uh improvement give me a second okay would you clarify again just the uh you mentioned the the piece about the additional volume of water without the improvement or the re-channeling of the corner could you just kind of walk through that i know you've had some some conversations with other other staff about you may not have to be completely versed what what your understanding that is that that would potentially cause you to have a maybe a little different opinion about the volume of water i think you said something about without that improvement the volume of water would would increase well so without the storm water device being proposed by the applicant with this i'm being required of the applicant if is what's approved tonight um there will be uncontrolled flow from every location north of where the device is proposed so the speed of the water the scouring it's uh how quickly the conditions that were shown in those videos we see high volumes of water running and scouring um would definitely be dramatically reduced but the overall total volume of water that would eventually run out of that device slowly controlled would be higher so am i i'm answering the then you made a comment something about but without some improvement to the the trinity school right so the the trinity school is making some very modest um i think it's adding a small one or two small buildings in the property they would not be required normally to to complete this conveyance essentially along the entire rear of the hope creek development which is what's being contemplated here to really help reduce the problem that the neighbors brought to you all tonight so um what um mr urwin our staff engineer told me was that um there's a relatively modest cost to trinity because they're doing other improvements they'll have equipment and and crews deployed so i'm still not sure i'm getting at your question but are there other more substantial improvements that that could be made there that would help the situation further than anywhere it really just requires piping and channelization of of the area that was shown in the neighbors video where there's standing water and running water that that be piped similar to what is upstream uh the first speaker uh homeowner one i'm sorry i forgot your name sir um had showed the uh the large the three barrel uh bridge that's really you know very high quality that's 30 plus inch pipe really would be matching that type of pipe um downstream to convey it through so that's what that's what trinity would need to do in order to help substantially reduce the the flooding condition that's yeah but since that's that's permittable yes okay it wouldn't be all channelized it would be a combination of riprap and piping but yes it is permittal thank you uh council member cubby arrow oh i'm sorry you're gonna respond to that first oh okay to the yeah to the prior question from mayor shul so i'm sorry i miss uh the conversation that was going on in the meantime so our understanding is that the school is working on um increasing the channel to match the upstream which i think is currently the issue and you know they're already working on that and basically if that's going to happen then uh don't think that there is a financial contribution that that baker residential could make that would help that anymore if that doesn't happen i think that is something that that uh you know baker could consider at that time but right now our understanding is that the the recommended improvement for trinity school is actively being worked on by mac Adams i should also mention that mac Adams also is the engineer for uh kendrick estate's project and our mac Adams engineer is here although he's not working on the trinity project but uh the understanding is that's what the school is doing already is increasing the channel to match the upstream so that's consistent with my understanding from talking to our public work staff i guess what i would emphasize though it's it's not clear to me that the city can require the full improvement that's being contemplated it is accurate as mr ghost just said that the trinity park is looking at doing that essentially trying to be a good neighbor for lack of a better term and try to benefit it also benefits their property they're having some of these same conditions that were shown thank you um councilmember cabillero and then council member freeman thank you i had a quick question because reading about the fence did i hear correctly that it would be wrought iron and five feet tall five foot tall it's the black aluminum that looks like right iron okay what the udo prefers yeah and it's a fence ordinance who prefers that okay in the udo that's the that's the time that's listed but you are allowed to do a like a eight foot tall opaque fence i suppose but the one that's mentioned is like a black aluminum fence okay because what i had been reading is that the idea was to have solid material not necessarily wrought iron i don't know if one of the um concerns is you know five feet is actually not very tall so you can still throw things over and critters are still going to come back and forth between wrought iron you might keep the deer out but if the goal is to kind of separate the wildlife completely from the park that's just out of curiosity no it's interesting that you mentioned that the uh i couldn't speak to the height i know one of the concerns was dumping uh like into the park area so uh maybe maybe five feet is not tall enough i'm not i don't know that there ever was a specific height that was recommended but the part of the issue was actually that this is a quarter a wildlife quarter so the fence does tend to prevent some of those movements and that's not what the intent is the intent is to prevent humans from moving into the park and in that regard i think the fence would work for that uh and then i have a second question are our folks going to be allowed to park the public going to be allowed to park in that cul-de-sac to access that um the trailhead right to yeah to the same it's a it'd be a public right of way that that calls that yes thank you thank you councilmember freeman um my question was for staff i was just going to ask um if you felt like it what it might be beneficial to hold on until trinity park or trinity um school actually completed the project to see how the improvements were having an impact in the in a neighborhood before moving forward with kendrick estates sure i'd really want to leave that to you all's judgment as i tried to state earlier in response to councilmember middleton's question um i look at this as a pre previously existing um drainage issue that primarily pertains to the inadequacy of the stormwater design of the hope creek subdivision the extent to which that this this is worsened is uh modest or negligible because it is improving the scouring and the flow even though there will be some modest increase in the water and that it does appear as if trinity school was pressing forward that's but if you all want to defer this until that action is completed prior to um completed by um trinity school we certainly respect that the um they would have to show on there there's a site plan currently under review they could depict it on the site plan but that they could always amend a site plan to remove it later and so really there won't be any guarantee um assure a hundred percent iron cloud assurance that this will be mitigated until that's installed which would very likely be you know six plus or minus six months at least so just so we're clear on the time timing that would be involved one other quick point on the fence if i might i'm sorry i know that wasn't directly a question councilmember freeman the design mr ghost referred to is certainly permissible but it's not required by the ordinance you know if it's except for the small portion that would be directly adjacent to the cul-de-sac and you'd be up to eight feet tall um that's which is allowable by the ordinance but the design is permissible that they described i was just going to say to my colleagues i mean recognizing that the residents in the community aren't against the development they're actually just trying to figure out how to make sure that the water is going to be mitigated and adding a development on top of it does feel like a heavy burden for the residents i recognize that i've had the same issue in my neighborhood i know lots of other residents who've had the same issue including um a resident on tanglewood who's facing the same a similar issue with three above ground sewer i would have it i wrote it down um raised sewer access in their inflow areas and so just noting like there's a lot of unmitigated items that could be brought into this situation that could need to be mitigated um just rushing through uh this process i do want to caution and just ask for um more time and recognizing that if trinity is already working to try and do some mitigation that we at least see what that looks like um prior to saying yes to a development at that location thank you council member are there any additional comments or questions from members of the council just one quick question for pat what assuming we did wait in trinity what went forward with their their plans bracketing out the political considerations what are the virtues from a planning point of view or or physically or that that could be derived from that in other words would that would that be a good phase activity in terms of actual physical impact on the problem sure so i i guess the the x factor here is i i don't have a sense really any sense of trinity's time frame on actually delivering the project site plans are good for four years so the site plans currently under review they would have is assuming it gets approved and say the next two or three months they would have up to four years um to deploy the both the building project that they have and the um the installation of the of the pipe so i just i don't have any sense of what their um time frame for to deliver that is and um without knowing that it's difficult to therefore assess the impact on on this development i mean you you need to talk to the applicant about their needs and that time frame but we really couldn't provide any kind of guarantee and and documentable reduction in the conditions you saw until that pipe would be installed and then operated for a pretty high intensity of rain event thank you and therein lies my concern i i appreciate the animating spirit of councillor freeman's um concern but without a representative here from trinity i mean two things i don't want to do i don't want to unduly reward a developer i don't want to unduly burden them either um and and without a representation from trinity as to when they know what the timetable is that here i i don't i don't know how operational i went that that speculation to be on my decision um tonight but i do i do appreciate the uh as i said the animating spirit of the concern thanks thank you initial would you like a motion madam impretum are there any additional thoughts comments great yeah i believe a motion would be thank you i i i'm appreciative of the uh all the different complicating issues i i don't think i think that the the alternative of leaving this unannexed and county uh will have potentially a worse stormwater effect on the on the neighborhood than the annexation with a hundred-year stormwater treatment um and i think that in many other ways this developer has worked very hard to meet the concerns that we asked for all the groups that we asked them to uh to meet with and um i'm impressed with that they need to keep their promises um yeah anyway so with that i'll move that we uh adopt the ordinance annexing kendrick will there be any discussion i believe we'll see if there's a second and then yes we can have discussion councilmember freeman so i just want to make note that i think um it's important to recognize in 1990 prior to the stormwater um regulations being put in place that these locations were all developed in the same manner based on rules and regulations and it's incumbent upon me to also note that that same floodplain was there and it was still developed in and as we move forward noting all of the shifts and changes that have not been addressed around stormwater um and the areas or the communities that have been set up prior to that 2002 2003 my growing concern is that we continue to to do more development in areas in which we know there was already water issues and they're not there's no plan there's not a clear cut way to address it and i considered i continue to have this issue i continue to raise this issue each time we talk about building where we know there's flooding or talk about um moving forward with developments knowing that there's flooding and so i just want to make a note there that um i cannot support this moving forward thank you councilmember um mademere oh are you gonna no you would you like to speak i would councilmember reese thank you so much mademere pro tem and i want to thank all my colleagues for their remarks so far i also want to thank all the folks from the journal public who came out to share their concerns about the development of this piece of property that's adjacent to what seems like a really lovely park i will express i will admit to some familiarity with this part of the city because for a very brief and lovely time my daughters attended the trinity school and so i spent a lot of time in the creek that we thought was a creek and now understand as a drainage ditch uh that runs through what the uh what the what the kids love lovingly called a hundred acres which is obviously much smaller than a hundred acres but they're kids it's okay um and um and somewhat familiar with this part of the city for that reason um you know we have this job is all about choices and um the choices in a case like this are as stark as we see them we've heard from our planning director that the property is developable at a very smaller number of houses um on larger lots um and that that the storm water requirements for a developer in that scenario are exceedingly small but we've also heard that developing this property as set forth by the developer in this proposal also has some significant problems and concerns not just for the folks who are downstream from them but also for a hollow rock park directly adjacent to them and i guess my deepest regret tonight is that our forefathers here in Durham did not see fit to obtain title to that property in some way shape or form at least settle it with appropriate easements that would prevent this sort of development from happening there but that is not where we are today um and so we have to figure out uh what is in the best interest of the city i will point out um to something that mr. Goche said about the fence that struck me a little funny and i went back and looked looked into this in terms of the folks who proposed the fence i don't believe the only concern was folks not being able to toss things over the side uh although certainly if that was the concern any five foot fence would be wholly inadequate for that purpose um it was also so that people could not see through the fence into the development um which a wrought iron or a looks like wrought iron fence would also be wholly inadequate uh and also to prevent um the domestic pets of the folks who live in the development dogs but also the most vicious predator we have in our urban environment the house cat um that they would not be allowed to have access to the park uh and um and impact the wildlife that is there now um so i just wanted to the i i caught note of what mr. Goche said and i wanted to make those observations um the the property is not currently part of the city of Durham we have um the decision this body the seven of us will decide whether or not it ought to become a part of this city um i don't think we should i don't think we should annex it to be a part of the city um i think that if we choose to say no tonight that leaves open lots of alternatives about how this part of the disposition of this property um some of whom some of which may be worse than what's proposed here and some of which might be better um but i don't think we should fool ourselves about the purpose to which this developer is here this developer is not coming to us saying please let us protect the stormwater interests of this piece of property for you oh city of Durham by by annexing us into you that's not where they're here and we all know that um and that's okay that's not your job sorry job to figure that part out i totally get that um but uh i don't think it's in our best interest to make this part of the city not today not under this proposal i'll be voting no thank you mr mayor thank you councilmember reese so we have a motion and a second um madame clerk will you please open the vote the motion passes four to zero four to three with council members freeman reese and caballero voting now thank you all right second move the consistency state by madame reese madame clerk you please open the vote the motion passes four to three with council members caballero freeman and reese voting now and i'll move the ordinance second let's open the vote the motion passes with councilmember caballero freeman and reese voting now thank you want to hit the gavel do i get hit i get hit the gavel wow they're being no further business before us tonight this meeting is adjourned at 9 53 p.m