 Really warm welcome to each of you. Thank you so much for joining us today for this, the first deep adaptation Q&A and today we are joined by Stephen Wright. Stephen, thank you for being here. So I have the deep honor of serving with Stephen on the members of the deep adaptation forum holding group. So Stephen is an interface minister and spiritual director and trustee for the Sacred Space Foundation, which is a retreat and guidance center in the Northwest of England. Stephen offers spiritual guidance as well as support in development of the practice of healing, spiritual care, conflict resolution and leadership. He's also an author. I've got one of these books here, which I hope we'll hear a little bit more about later. Stephen, it's really, really great that you've joined us. Thank you. I'm curious whether there is anything else about you that you would like people to know. Oh, I have an any type three personality so keep going. No, but we can explore that a little more about how many of those things that you've said, while they mean they're not me. And that'll be, I think, part of our subject matter for everyone today. Thanks. So I'll jump straight in because there are a lot of things that I would really love to hear you speaking about. But the first thing that I want to ask you to speak about is maybe really, really simply the connection between spirituality and well being and particularly in the context of facing the enormity, the existential terror of looking into unfolding collapse of society. Let's play for a minute with the notion of spirituality and well being, I would say spirituality is well being. If we look at the evidence, what keeps us healthy in the world is a sense of connection to the world to each other to ourselves. And for most people, a sense of the something other. What kinds of names. Some call it God, I tend to avoid that word because it's so gender driven. But if we look at the evidence for what keeps us healthy makes us gives us a sense of well being. What subverts it primarily is stuff that is fear driven whatever that fear source is. And we can add into the mix at the moment. A sense that I have that there's never been a time in my lifetime when there's been so much fear about when I was a teenager. There was so much fear because we all thought we were going to die because the bomb was going to drop, but that was about it. There was the one thing. Now we have a deep sense of fear in the world because of more of us are aware of cultural collapse climate collapse political collapse so on and so on and so on and a pandemic on top of it. And the signals everywhere I'll be afraid be afraid now we know that fear compromises not least your immune system it's a physiological level. It's a long term period over a long term period. Therefore, anything that takes the brakes off that immune system by releasing by relieving the fear is more inclined to make us healthy. We know there are four, four things I call the four F's that help us towards one of them is faith. The other is fellowship. The other is pre giving being involved in something where we give and not necessarily expect something right. And the third, the fourth is fulfilling work. Now if I go to the first one of faith, what we know is that people who have some sense of connection to each other, the world and possibly there's something other. If you're more likely to feel less fearful in the world. QED if you're less fearful, you're more likely to feel a sense of wellness and happiness and health in the world at a physiological psychological spiritual level. I'm reminded of that deep philosopher Peggy Lee, when she sang that Lieber and Stoller song. That's all there is if that's all there is break out the booze and let's keep dancing just break out the booze and let's keep dancing. And that is one of the responses to the a spiritual world. When you feel there is no meaning to life to yourself to purpose of being here, then one response is just get drunk and keep dancing. There are others, but that's one for now. Thank you. I'm noticing that those four f's that you shared. Three of them stand. Even for people for whom the word spiritual doesn't necessarily mean anything doesn't have a personal residence. And the first one faith. Yeah, it can be it can be replaced by what you just what you just last described is just a sense of meaning purpose. Well, if we look at the evidence on that faith one, there was no evidence that it is necessarily faith in a God, it could be faith in your football team. It could be faith in life, it could be faith in your family, but you believe in something something that gives you a sense of meaning and purpose for being alive and being here. The deep adaptation movement is a faith based movement in the sense it is giving huge an exile and things like it is giving huge numbers of people a sense of a reason to be here. If it's only to save the planet or save ourselves. So that you know we are human belongings as well as human beings. And that feeling that we need to connect with something and for most people it's from the mystical point of view that something other is real. It's not something esoteric or it actually is a tangible quality of the nature of the reality of the cosmos. So, yeah. Are we all involved in DDA in the deep faith movement. Who knows. Yeah, thank you. There are people here that if they would, if you would like to submit a question to ask to do it you can do so by sending that in a direct message to Stuart, and he's going to field those questions. Thank you. Spirituality is is well being. So I'm curious to hear to hear you speak to the phenomenon of spiritual bypass. If spiritual if faith is a story if practices are there to help us feel better. Yeah, what about spiritual bypass in this context. First of all, I would say, if I stretch the word spiritual, everybody is spiritual there are people so well I'm not spiritual. But everybody seeks meaning and purpose and direction and love and connection in life. Everybody does. And whether you find that meaning purpose and connection for example, in atheism or nihilism or the deep adaptation movement or God or whatever, you are finding a meaning and purpose so it's to be to say I'm not spiritual is the kind of oxymoron because to say I'm not spiritual is your spirituality. You find meaning and purpose in the world. But of course it's because spiritual is associated with some sense of divinity or a divine quality or something like that. Some people are put off by it but it may well be that people are finding their spiritual expression expressing their spirituality through activism to protect the planet, for example. If you look at spiritual bypassing. There's some strengthening me says well if whatever you're doing like you're doing mindfulness meditation it makes you feel better fine go ahead and do it, you know in a world that's full of terror. If it makes you feel better now enables you to function better let's not distinction. Let's not be too precious about what spiritual practices might be really for. Let's look down the long history of civilization, whatever that is. We find that people across all nations in all cultures have at some point turned towards the something other of a recognition that I am part of all that is. I am part of others that I meet and part of everything it's part of me. Some would say that as a response to the fear of death we want to try and find something that makes us feel immortal or permanent whatever it might be. But you know from the mystics perspective it is, it is the real is the absolute is the real. I pass that we with our spiritual practices often spiritual practices are engaged in in order to bypass the deep exploration because it's difficult in order just to keep us comfortable. So much of spirituality both old age and new age, when you look at it is me centered. It's about keeping me happy making me feel better in the world. There is some merit in that. But if the deep purpose of spirituality is a profound connection with all that is. Then just using spiritual practices like meditation, for example, to make you feel more relaxed is to limit something that has otherwise profound potential. Yeah, thank you that it resonates with me as well the fact that for me part of spirituality if I use that word it also includes community and it also includes connection and includes presence and ways of practicing self and co regulation. And, and I think the thing which is usually referred to as spiritual bypass is when it is an unconscious movement towards feeling better, rather than consciously saying yeah we, we can do this for and with each other. The effort to suggest that spiritual that bypassing like that, the expression of you is there ain't no the expression I've used in that wonderful book that you displayed earlier. The expert is that there's no shortcuts. We can think you know if I can get into the spiritual life and I can become relaxed and connect with the designer whatever it is, but not deal with the pain I'm carrying from childhood or the conflict I have with my partner, or the terrible ways of thinking, unless we deal with those things and attempts to buy, they will simply return and bite us on the bump. I'm a member of the island of community and I meet people on the island who generally come there because they think that by coming to the island, they will get this spiritual high, and they won't have to worry about all the crap they're carrying around with them. And of course what happens is when you go into a place where you even temporarily disconnect from your ordinary life, the stuff you're carrying around you is magnified it's not less and it grows it becomes the shadow grows in you because it appears. However, in the authentic spiritual life you cannot bypass the emotional stuff and you cannot use ultimately the spiritual practices of the spiritual life, just to keep us content in the world. Well, I'm saying you cannot maybe you can. But if the spiritual life has a purpose at all, if there is, is to provide us with that deep connection with all that is however we experience that just using it to keep me happy to have an experience to make me feel like I've done or whatever is somewhat suspect. But now by saying that I know I'm sounding very judgmental which shows you where my spiritual practice needs to go. Yeah, as I was hearing you talk about the purpose of practice purpose for spiritual practice views is cultivating a profound understanding of connection with all that is everything is sacred. That includes my terror is part of all that is it includes my stories about who's fault this might be is part of all that is. If we look at the, there's a kind of view about spiritual exploration mysticism by mysticism in connection with the real quality of unity with that all that is however we define that. God if you want goddess if you want the light with the light. And as it draws us into through deep practice is the experience of that connectedness of anything what that deep source is life, like life might be a God light might be a God. But in that you recognize that you're part of that you're not separate from it. And that brings you then to why you feel the normal egoic human fear of death. And you recognize also that you do not die that the very essence of which you are made, just as we say in physics. Energy cannot be created or destroyed. Well consciousness is a form of energy light is energy. It just simply changes its form. And if you've ever like I have been with countless numbers of people who died and you've witnessed that dying, you just know something else is going on it's not a full stop. There's a transition taking place and often when I've been with people are dying, the quality of being with them in that dying room is not that different from the quality of being when somebody is being born. There is the same quality of the energy that of something going on. And so if you lift it beyond the human dimension of what it is to be human a physical reality. There's nothing else going on there. But at the same time in that, I believe profoundly in the mystical life. It's not as is often seen as something that takes you out of this world to cope with the vicissitudes of it and just to be able to get on with life as it is, because it's not something other or hope for eternal life at some point. No, the, the spirituality that will be relevant to deep adaptation and other movements in relation to saving our planet if it's savable is deeply engaged. It's deeply practical. It's almost like just just to be spiritual without being connected in community. It's like it's like an oxymoron that's where spiritual becomes a spiritual self-pleasuring it's about you being okay in the world. That's okay, but ground that okayness in finding that part of the world of your point of participation or points of whatever it might be. There's a different quality to it if, if you are drawing on that deep source within yourself of okayness of connection. You will have a different experience in the world. If you are acting from that source that center, then if you try and act from the center that is your ego, your functional personality, the latter will exhaust and burn out. The form that draws on some source through which your participation in the world may leave you tired, but fulfilled. If you're drawing only on your ego resources, you're going to be exhausted and incomplete. You burn out. It's not a question of people who are activists. It's not a question of either being spiritual or an activist. It is being a spiritual activist or an activist who is spiritual. Yeah. Sounds a bit dogmatic that I didn't mean to. We were talking about that particularly the, the pitfall of burning out of working so hard from the place of what you call the ego needs. That one becomes depleted. And yeah, I was thinking about what I've read of your writing talking about the, let me read this and make sure I get it right. Spiritual life is the fierce de addiction program. Yeah, and I had this sense of that, that, that grasping working so hard that we end up burning out as being one of the many, many addictions that are holding me as a human together right here. I wonder if you could talk about that. That's interesting. Thanks Katie. I'm just playing with the thought of more burnout. And I've written an excellent book about this, but what's come to me is how see how we can see burnout. It's like the cold turkey of the ego. It's what happens when it's just run out of steam that can't function any longer, and once more but can't get it. I'll talk about that later. But if the, when you introduced me you very kindly said I'm a this and I'm a that one level, but a functional personality level those are truth. You know, and with my ego I can have a field day giving you lots, lots more I am so gathering lots of letters after my name and before giving me fun love it. I'm also a lie. None of those are who I am. And that can be a fierce challenge to encounter. We, if we have no sense of the center, the connection to death. However we experience that we will place the center elsewhere. We will create it somewhere else. We'll break out the booze and keep dancing. We will seek jobs, we will job hop, we will sex hop, we will TV hop, we will shop hop, we will do anything to invest that energy to find meaning and purpose, either outside ourselves, or in some various entities. Those become a kind of addiction, a way of functioning in the world and to a degree they work, we have to operate at this particular plane of consciousness that's what they're there for. We identify them with the most absolutes. At some deep level, if not a superficial, we know they're impermanent. We know they're going to die. We know this body will die. And beneath that then is that deep unconscious fear which permanates every aspect of humanity. It's there whether we acknowledge or not, is that fear that I will die, that I will be terminal. And then to break through that addiction. For some people, it can happen like that, they will have a road to Damascus experience, or they may face bereavement or they get a cancer diagnosis or they're going through divorce or facing prison or the kind of people we deal here with here on region retreat here who are experiencing those things. And that shock fractures the perception of who they are. The ego will then go into overdrive to try and hold desperately onto it for some people. Others, it will be, no, what's it all about. This is not what I think life is. I'm not who I think I am. Sometimes you can go through that process by participating in courses or events that enable you to examine yourself, whether you go to a psychotherapist, or you join a meditative school or whatever it might be. And then to examine the truth or otherwise of who I think I am. That's when for some people that's often. That can be a really difficult point, because you plunge into the abyss. If I'm not this if I'm not a wife, a mother, a husband, a friend, a doctor, a child, a nurse, blah, blah, blah, whatever it is, if these things are not who I am. And some people arguably the majority of my experience, they hit the abyss. Ah, this is too terrifying. I'm not this because I then I must be nothing. And if a spiritual practices down the ages have shown us. They provide the tools to wear with all to work through that and you come out of the abyss of, Oh my God, I'm nothing. This is terrible. I can't bear this. I'm going back to the pub. I'm not a husband or whatever it might be. You come out of the abyss in which the fear response is very great. And you move through it and you realize. Wow. I'm not nothing. I'm no thing. I am. In touching into I am this. Then we have the boundless possibility of expression in the world we have all these roles and identities we can dance with. But we own them they don't own us. We don't, we're not hooked to them we're breaking through the addiction and you need like any 12 step program, you still need the sessions, they're getting together the community the practices that keep you away from your addiction because you're slipped back to it ever so easily. Yeah. So there's a process there that can be worked through. Yeah. I am aware as you're speaking that we've had another guest we've had a previous guest. Or the year before last maybe who talked about addiction as being a really, really important part of the work that is required for for deep adaptation and it's Vanessa Andreotti. I'm minded. I am mindful of curious about the fact that the way you speak about an experience and I hear about this, this process of I don't think you use the word awakening but maybe I would use that. Yeah, that word is quite culturally specific. I have a sense that the pain involved of the, maybe really reluctant realisation of I'm not this thing that I thought I was is deeper in a culture where hyper individualism is so intense. Our culture deeply embedded in. It's influenced by Cartesian thinking. I think therefore I am. You could add to that I do therefore I am. Yeah. To the contemplative, the mystic which is the same thing. The person who is engaged with deep spirituality. They reverse that we reverse that it's I am therefore I think I am therefore I do. Which is the polarity of your awareness of who you are and why you're here. And there's a further point there, which is these addictions these attachments. There are many spiritual practices which encourages to work our socks off to get free of and it becomes really hard work you've got to do a lot of mindful work you've got to really discipline yourself you've got to think constant peace and kindness and everything. And it's, you know, one level it's coming hard work. And so I think what the mystical approach offices, which is less about working to get free of your attachments and or but working towards discovering this cover take the cover off. The original source to recover your original attachment to your source, which is not an addiction. It's a loving relationship it's a quality, which then supports you in getting free of your addictions, whatever they are in ordinary reality. The problem and from that perspective, from the contemplative practice, the problem is not attachments to things or to persons or to identities that we can spend a lot of work trying to get rid of. The problem is detachment from our source. And that's what the spiritual the mystical contemplative life encourages us towards what is your source what is your, what is it you need to reattach to that you've got this problem. You need to awaken to that truth that isn't somewhere else it's right here right now, if you. Yeah. So I'm hearing is that that narrative about working hard is a is a characteristic of modern culture anyway so it's less about putting more working hard into your experiential space and rather focusing on shifting awareness into just a different kind of awareness. Ultimately, it's really simple. You can reduce all the spiritual life to two things prayer and fasting prayer is opening up to your connection to whatever methods you use to the absolute to your source fasting. And then you decide things that distract you from not just food, things that distract you from. And then you maybe you wake up after we realize, bloody hell my life is a prayer. What I'm supposed to be doing is right here now and it was that lovely buddy say if you want to know where you're supposed to be look at your feet. It's right here. You don't have to go off and go on a 40 degree 40 day retreat on the side of a Himalayan mountain. When you really want to know when you're really ready for it. It's there waiting for you. Yeah. But we have the work I think if we have worked is putting ourselves in that condition that permits that. I don't experience the absolute as a spiritual boy doesn't come in knocking and slapping you around the face, but is forever there waiting that when you're ready when the moment is ready whether you feel pushed into it or you're ready for it. It is there ready and waiting for you just knock on the door open to you. Yeah. So I'm wondering and I'm very aware that the 30 plus people here aren't here just to hear you and I having a conversation and we have yeah quite a few questions lined up to to to ask you and I'm also wondering if now might be a good time to to lead a short meditation. Does that feel does that feel okay for you right now. It might help the discussion. So it's, yeah, we're past halfway. And I want to honor people showing up with their questions and also recognize that this this process my may answer some questions that are there that haven't been asked. It's just a quiet moment together then just a couple of minutes or just see what comes up. And I ask everyone here now just to drop down with me into what in some languages known as the heart space place where you go where you feel deeply where you seek understanding of why I'm and why I'm here. How I make right decisions. I'm going to ask her. The question of that space. Few it may be here you experience the divine in all its forms. It may be has a name for you. It may be Jesus or Allah or goddess or Buddha, or the light within or nature or the universe. Each of us has a center. Your highest self best self deepest self be receptive to that center now. Yates in his poem said things fall apart when the center cannot hold. What is your center. What is it in you helps you stay centered in the world when things are falling apart. Does it have a name. If so I invite you to approach it now. Be receptive to it. It helps how it's been with all your life. Maybe only recently recognized it. Maybe in a place of knowing just be receptive knowing whatever you're experiencing that center, whether you feel it. See it here it touch it. Whether it's in your imagination or feelings. In fact you first of all just to explore gently. What is my center. Where are you. What are you, and I invite you now as to ask a question about center whatever it is to you. Right now this point of my life. With this gathering of this people across the wires. I feel my way towards you experience you with a near or shallow right now. This moment. What do you want me to receive this moment of inquiry with this group of people. What do you want me to receive without editing it or trying to make something work off. Answer the question if you feel there's nothing there just simply ask the question. What do you want me to receive and then take a deep breath. Put that question and any response to one side. Ask another question. Now that I'm here sitting here with this group of people across the world. What is it you want me to know. Right now, what do you want me to know. Again, don't edit it don't try and make something happen if nothing's happening. Sometimes nothing is something just ask the question and see what response arises as an image or a feeling or something like that. Then put that to one side at the back of your mind take a deep breath and ask the third question. What do you want me to let go of what am I to let go of the game without fixing it. Trying to make it work or make something happen just accept what happens something or nothing. What do you want me to let go of and let any response to that go to the back of your mind as well to have a look at later for due discernment. Take a deep breath and bring in the fourth question with where I am right now. What's going on myself in the world. What do you want me to do. What am I to do. What do you want me to do. So just sit with those questions today or tomorrow or whenever. What's going on in that center. Which is yourself. What am I to receive. What am I to know. What am I to let go of. What am I to do. In this moment. And beyond. You know what ever has happened receptive or not you felt. But every motion she felt in response to those questions. So just let yourself sit with them. Bring them into discernment later on. Perhaps take them to a trusted guide if there is confusion. And just take a deep breath and return with me. Back into the space where you are. Beautiful Steven thank you. Yeah, I noticed a profound shift in the way I'm experiencing the space that is holding us. I'm not sure what to do. I'm not sure what to do. I'm not sure what to do. Yeah. An opening up. One thing I love about the beloved the transperson. Is it's also personal. I am now going to. Open up for questions and I would like Alex. Alex. Pat first of all. Would you unmute yourself Alex. I would like to ask you a question for Steven. So, Alex, if you're not there, I'm going to go. I have. It was a technical issue. I couldn't do that. Wouldn't like to miss the opportunity to be asked the first person to ask a question. Thank you, Steven. Thank you, Katie. Start with. Yes. That was a long time ago. I asked my question. I suppose I'll take my inspiration from nature. And so I'm always trying to. So I guess the question for me is everything has. Has a purpose. Nothing's wasted. And so it started talking about fear. And that just peaked my curiosity. What is, what is the role of the value of fear? It's interesting question. Thank you. What is the role? What is the value? It's part of what it is to be human. It teases us to inquire. It helps us look after our bodies. Warns us when things are dangerous and might be harmful to us. Can keep us in the world. If I learn as a child that sticking my hand in the fire hurts. I learned to be afraid of not putting my hand in the fire in the future. I learned to get out of a building when it's on fire. So fear provokes in us a flight or a fight response. It's an absolutely normal human response to danger. I've experienced fear in the presence of some so-called spiritual people because I became aware that they were dangerous in what they were teaching. They wanted to control or abuse me. So fear has a role. It is a part of our nature. That helps us to survive. To discern the true from the false. The safe from the unsafe. The healthy from the unhealthy. I'm struck by a guy whose name I can't remember. Who, because of some psychological effect, has no sense of fear about anything. And I watched a video that had me trembling in my knees of him climbing a rock face. I think in Yellowstone. It could be Yosemite. A thousand feet high, sheer rock face. Without any climbing equipment whatsoever. And he has no sense of fear or danger. Is that a gift? Or is it a curse? I think I'll just to finish the point. I think. From the spiritual perspective. Fear shows us. Where we do not yet trust the all that is. It shows us some part of us. If I do express it in religious terms. Well, excuse me. Our faith in the absolute has crevices. Where it is not quite as complete as we thought it was. And if I revert to my own Christian contemplative tradition here is. Remember Jesus. At the point before he's about to be executed. He knows what's coming in the garden at this time. He's so afraid. He sweats blood. In my nursing lifetime. I've only ever seen that happen twice. When person sweat went pink. The red corpuscles were coming through. It's extremely rare. And the person has to be extremely terrified for that to happen. So you have this profoundly. Enlightened being. For whom people saw no difference between God and man. Even he gets spared spitless at the end. And what does he do. At that point. He tries bargaining. He says, can somebody else have this? Not me. And then he says. I will not mind you. And that is that. That's the profound thing where you hand over in faith. To whatever is happening. Somehow you trust the process of the universe. The beloved goddess, the divine whatever. So fear has a purpose. Although it's painful in spiritual terms. In showing us where we need. Can go deeper in our relationship to the absolute. I hope that goes somewhere towards answering your question. We can have a whole day on that one alone. Yeah, I really enjoyed that Alex. Thank you for the question. And I'm. Two things came up for me as well. One of them is. Sometimes with a particular experience of fear. If I follow it all the way down. I find my love of life. I find joy there. And. The fact that I'm not alone. Yeah. I'm not alone. I'm not alone. I'm not alone. I'm not alone. I'm not alone. But I think this is a. And the fact that it is possible to experience these. As it's just a feeling. This is life moving through me. It hasn't killed me. Yet this is just a feeling. Thank you. Will you choose one of them, please? I'll give an answer that's going to sound banal. You love them unconditionally. That's the first thing. That's your first spiritual practice, the practice of unconditional love for your child. And as a person who has had the role of father and grandfather, believe me, they will throw every spiritual tension at you that they possibly can. Your daughter is your spiritual teacher. As you are hers, it's not one way. There's a mutuality in that. And from my beliefs perspective, some aspect of her beingness, her consciousness, when it moved from eternity into reality, incarnated, whatever you want, she chose you. And you chose her. That means there is meaning and purpose in that. It's important. It's a mutuality. It's not just me bringing this child into the world. That was my first point. The second is that struck me was for you to live it. She will learn from you by the way you live it. You live your I amness. You can encourage love, be with her, but primarily she will learn it from you. You are her most important role model. And the more you live your truth of your nature, the more she will be receptive to that. That's for me too. And then you can send her off to one of our heart from the schools in Cumbria and we'll teach her. But you can encourage, you can help her with discernment of things like when she reaches a point where she's opening to different forms of education or learning, it can be things like, yeah, try this. Have a look at this. Read this. My experience of children being children is they will pay absolute no attention to you whatsoever. And then maybe a decade later, well, one may be thought of that. So part of that is also unhooking our natural attachment to wanting our children to be safe and happy and have everything. It's you see it, you bear witness to it, you hold it, the agony and the ecstasy. That's what parenting is all about. That's your spiritual practice. You cannot, you cannot manage her awakening for her. You. So that's about us as parents letting go of our attachment wanting it to be natural. We want our children to be safe and happy. But the trouble is, if we are not careful, if we don't watch that, it doesn't help and support, it interferes. It gets in the way. It stops the very thing happening that we want to happen. And that lovely line I think in Khalil Gibran's work, The Prophet, where he says, your children are not your children. What you are is they are arrows to your bow, you fill the bow with love and then ultimately you have to find them and trust that they will go, you know, you pour all that love and strength into them. Oh yeah, yeah. God bless you to me and your parenting. Do you know from a time with my own daughter when a healing moment was needed and I was with a good friend and guide who was there with me, Jeannie, who's basically said to me, get out in the way, Stephen. And what was going on was my fear for her that I want my daughter to be happy. I want her to be well. I want that. Look at all that. Look at it. It's all my fear. What I realized as a parent I had to do was recognize my fear at working me. I couldn't get rid of it, but what I could do was hold it and I could stop it getting in the way of recognizing it was blocking me for being fully present and loving with her because I was also buying into my fear for her. Now I couldn't get rid of that. It's natural part of my psyche. I love her. She's my daughter. So it was part of learning about fear to hold that and not let it get in the way, not let it govern my responses with her. Yeah, thank you, Stephen. I think you haven't experienced the practice in the deep adaptation forum called Deep Relating, where one of the principles of relating is own your experience and you just described that really beautifully. I am going to invite Stuart now. Stuart, Jeffrey, if you're already unmuted, beautiful. Thank you. What's your question, Stuart? There we go. Hello. Thank you, Stephen. My question is about balance and the gritty pain. Is there a need to balance the bliss of all that is with this gritty pain of reality? And do we need the sort of dynamic balance of the wonder with the terror in order to grow, I suppose? So it's kind of that, do we need more? And does it expand in two different directions equally? That's a feast. That's a tasty one. The word that's coming to my mind is equanimity. That if we try and push away the horror and seek only the beauty will come unstuck. Because in pushing away the horror, it intensifies it both for us and for others. And in seeking only the beauty, we push it away because the energy of that grasping or pushing gets in the way. And so there's a lovely Sufi story here. Yeshua had been Mary, and Jesus, son of Mary, is walking towards Jerusalem Wednesday, and he sees a group of people whose faces are full of pain and agony. And he says, what's the matter with you? And they say, master, master, we spent all our lives trying to avoid suffering. And he says, oh, yes, he blesses them and walks on. Then he meets another group whose faces are also full of pain and agony. And he says, why are you like this? He said, master, master, we spent our lives only trying to be happy. He blesses them and walks off, avoid suffering. And he walks on, meets another group who have pain etched on their faces, but also joy. There's a balance there of both of them. And he says, why are you like this? He said, master, we gave up trying to avoid suffering and experience only joy and we found peace. And he says, truly, you have found the kingdom of heaven, blesses them and walks on. Then when I kind of, that's a lovely Sufi story that suggests what you're like, we learn to hold both. Don't get into battle with pushing one away or grasping at the other. So we learn to live in the world of suffering with equanimity. My teacher Ram Das used the expression, learning to keep your heart open in hell. That no matter what is going on to use Krishna's words, you put no one from your heart. And that's the deep spiritual practice of learning to live with that, being in the world, but not of the world. Again, we could have a whole day on this one. Thank you. Thank you. Yeah, thank you for that one, Stuart. We have got time for one more. And Kevin, I would love it if you could unmute yourself and say a question with Steven, please. I can see you, Kevin, but I can't hear you. There you go. Kevin, can you, can you hear me? Can you, are you able to ask your question? Okay. So we've got problem with sound. So I'm going to ask a question instead. And this, I'm guessing this might be an opportunity, Steven, for you to talk to us a little bit about your most recent book called Heartfulness. And Kevin's question is, are you certain that there is a self? What was that? Sorry. I didn't quite catch that. Are you certain that there is a self? I don't know. And I'm absolutely certain that I don't know. And I'm very comfortable with not knowing. And yet I know. Am I certain that's a nice one? Yes. As to anything beyond that, in any attempt to divine it or conceptualize it, even the word self is suspect. It's a concept. Beautiful. Thank you for that question. The unknowable known, the known unknowable. But there is something, what even an underhill called the real. I'm certain. Feels it. The Heartfulness program, the Heartfulness course here in St. Kentigan School. It's all about that. That would be the absolute kind of question we'll be asking in deep exploration to help us break free of those addictions that get in the way of coming to know that self and coming to not know that self. And to be very comfortable with not knowing it and yet and yet we have in the program in the book there are 12 methods, 12 letters, 12 approaches that we go through to explore, peel back the layers of addiction, touch deeply into that which is beyond the self, the small self, discernment, authenticity, wisdom, joy and so forth. But they all come to a conclusion of that which binds them all together, says okay, you get all this stuff, now what? What is your path of service? What is your pressure point? We can be overwhelmed in these DA times with the volume of suffering in the world and it really isn't high volume. What do we do? Do we break out the booze and just keep dancing? Or do we try and fix everything and exhaust ourselves as a result? No. Through discernment we find our pressure point, the bit that is open to us. We can't fix it all. Where's my peace? Where's my little bit? The expression is from Deschardin, you know the whole universe is on flame. That's the nature of the energy, the lightning that binds everything together, love if you like, fire. If there's a vast fire, the universe is aflame. I'll leave you with this question everyone. What's your flame? Where's the bit where you burn brightly? Is it simply being, simply that's a judgmental word, drop that. Is it being a good mum in your own home? Is it being kinder to a neighbour? Is it working in the food bank? Is it breaking the bonds of food and justice? Is it being out there gluing yourself to the streets outside an Amazon store? We all have our pressure point and we don't have to make that decision for ourselves when we open to the centre. Recognise the power that comes from that centre, that source of life itself. We find our point of service in the world, wherever it may be. Thank you Stephen. Thank you to each of you who showed up. Thank you to each of you who submitted a question. I'm sorry that we didn't get a chance to hear from everybody. Part of my takeaway from this time together is opening to the possibility that what the divine might be telling me is my pressure point, my service, is the possibility that the breaking open the booze and keeping on dancing can be done with reverence, with humility, with prayer. Yeah, so that's my takeaway. I want to say a huge thank you to you Stephen. It feels like we could be circling around these topics and each other for a very long time. So thank you very much for joining us. The next deproduction Q&A will be with Scott Williams from the UN which Jen will be hosting that conversation on the 31st of January and I will share details with each of you in a couple of days time and I'll also share the link to this conversation on YouTube and information about Stephen's book and there was one other thing that came in and I'll also, yeah, I'll share that. So huge thanks. Thank you Stephen. Thank you for your support. Stuart and I look forward to seeing you all next time. Bye bye. Thanks Katie. Thank you. God bless. Bye for now.