 Welcome. Aloha from Honolulu. Welcome. Thanks all of you here in Hawaii on the mainland wherever you may be for joining us. Good afternoon, good morning, whatever time it may be for you. These are how pre-recorded and streamed later and then put on YouTube and Vimeo and available for viewing at your convenience. And we hope you'll do that and share these. And today we have with us our birthday girl, Judge Sandra Sims, retired from the bench of the state of Hawaii, well-known author and like the rest of our panel, very active in community service in many respects, just back from a really moving and intense trip to the mainland, to the south and other areas. We have Rebecca Radlev in Atlanta or near to it. And Rebecca has just watched her son graduate from college. So this is a really memorial time and week. Louise Ng, partner at Dentons, winner of many awards this year, including from the National Asian Pacific American Bar Association. And David Larson, chair of the American Bar Association's dispute resolution section, professor at Mitchell Hamlin in St. Paul. And so today, folks, we thought we'd talk a little bit about leaders and leadership. What we need, what may be missing, what might help us the most. And as our birthday girl, Sandra, Judge, you want to start us off? What would you look for in leadership? And are there people out there who exhibit some of the things you're looking for in leaders now for these times? That's actually kind of a tough question to ask in these times, but the things that appeal to, that impress me the most are the ability to empathize with people and certainly to have some integrity and character to begin with. Those don't seem to be all the qualities that we're seeing in people who are at least professing to be leaders at this one. That's just my take on it right now. It's a little discouraging, but there are bright lights around and I know some of you and you guys are part of that. You certainly check in the work that you're doing in bringing so many issues to the forefront in this community and around the nation and bringing together folks that you encounter to discuss these issues. That's a component of leadership, which is certainly going to your character and integrity, but there are others. Rebecca, your thoughts? Are there people out there now who have some of those really valuable qualities and attributes? There are still some. Because the world is evolving in a different space now because of COVID and all the other issues that we are dealing with and that our next generation is dealing with, I think there are some. We are seeing servant leaders rise because of the changes that we're seeing, but also what we're seeing, I was thinking, as Judge Sims was talking, we're also seeing audacity and allyship. I was explaining and published to say that ally is a verb in the dictionary. It's a noun, but when actually in practice it's a verb, but you have to be uncomfortable to be an ally. Leading efforts in allyship, it can be tough because it's unpopular work, but if you are not uncomfortable, you are not an ally. So you want to tell us a little bit more about what you mean by servant leadership? And Louise, I know you have some thoughts on that as well. Yes. By servant leadership, I'm referring to the ability and the willingness to put others first and to serve where you see a need without having to be asked to step up and it's somewhat self-sacrificing, but it's being a good steward of the talents that you've been given and being willing to share your gifts for the good of all. Louise, your thoughts? I think that was beautifully said, Rebecca, and I think that we're currently seeing some really bad examples of leadership that hopefully will lead us to a place of improving leadership. I also think that as we get more diverse with the profile of our leaders, more women, people of color, the next generation, whatever that we're seeing, a different model. And I agree with what Rebecca and Sandra said about maybe qualities coming out that maybe weren't so important or overlooked or overlooked before, such as the empathy, the emotional EQ, as well as being able to balance that EQ and being able to motivate people, but also knowing when you need to lead and set the role and set the path for people and kind of let them know what your mission and goal is. But I also think that the idea that we should be moving away from an autocratic, I know everything top down style of leadership to one that is more inclusive and, as you say, recognizes the value not just of the person on top, but the people that enabled them to get there and are supporting their work. Collaborative leadership, yes. And this is a group of four people who all of whom have faced, overcome, worked with, and navigated their way through exceptional challenges to get to the leadership positions, the respect, the admiration that you've earned. David, what worked for you in becoming a leader as you have in the ABA section of dispute resolution? We're going to get to that question. I just want to congratulate Judge Sims on her 39th birthday. I'm actually a graduate of Jack Betty Juter High School, if you remember him, and we were the 30-liners, was our team. So 39 is a number that I'll always remember. So congratulations. The other thing I wanted to say, Chuck, just to pick up on that earlier question about the characteristics of leaders, I got to put courage in there. Right now, I'm watching Liz Cheney on a literal comic-cosm. And the phrase, nation before self comes to mind that this is somebody putting nation before self. She is just being attacked ferociously by her party for what she's doing, but it's clear. She's putting the Constitution and the nation above herself, and she's just unflappable. And even though, historically and traditionally, I don't really agree with medieval policies, I certainly admire her for what she's doing now. I think she's just doing wonderful things. I think just in terms of overcoming obstacles, it takes a certain persistence, dedication and optimism that you really just have to not to be too naive, but I think you have to be a little bit of a glass half full person sometimes, that even though things are looking dark, sometimes you have to focus on the positives. And that's, I think, to give you strength in darker times. That's always been helpful to me when I've had some of the challenges I've faced. So circling around, are there people out there now who are exhibiting the kinds of character, conscience, courage and charisma that might offer us some hope for future leadership? Rebecca, any examples? I'm trying to think of an example. I'm drawing a blank. I started in my mind since David gave us the great example of Liz Cheney. I was trying to think of who who else in our government I'd like to name that immediately comes to mind. Ranking, Jamie Rankin. Yeah, and I'll also name that senator from, I forget whether he's a state rep or senator from Illinois. Yes, his family has turned on him, because he's taken a stand to do what's right. What's right for the country, what's right for humanity, for humankind. There are some members of his family who have turned against him. That's uncomfortable. Yeah, yeah. There was a, I think it was on one of the late night shows, they contrasted Liz Cheney talking in the prior House hearing about Ukraine and really putting down the Ukraine hearings contrasting to what she's doing now. It shows how fluid the situation can be, where you may totally disagree with her approach and the first time. Then when something like the insurrection happens, it really shows, it draws the line between people who are showing up with metal and principle versus those who go along for expedience and trying to win their party's vote. So I agree with David. Yeah, that's, you know, she deserves this. And it's interesting, you know, watching her go through this and remembering a time when, you know, strong leadership could, what did mean that you stood up for the principle of people, we didn't have to agree with you, but we could respect what you stood for. Because we knew that there was some integrity to that position. And I think that's kind of what we're seeing with her. There's so much of her other points of view that I can't agree, but I have a tremendous respect for her integrity and standing up. And that's another piece that we really don't see a great deal of in these times as we once did. This trip I was just on kind of brought to mind another person who I thought, Brian Stevenson, who, you know, headed up that Equal Justice Initiative, and been so involved in working in the South with, you know, with wrongfully convicted folks throughout time. And the work that he's done is certainly not very popular now in many circles. But it is such a necessary work in order for us to really kind of come together at some point. I think he still believes that we can come together as a nation and find peace. Otherwise, he wouldn't be doing this. And he's doing in the middle of Montgomery, Alabama of all places. And he certainly had his share of, you know, threats and violence directed, you know, against him and the work that he does as well. But to still stand for that and to still really persist and push through as he is doing with this peace initiative, he calls it a peace initiative, peace and justice initiative, because we can't change until we acknowledge what's happened. And that takes courage in certainly in this state and a state's tremendous courage and a tremendous amount of optimism. David, you alluded to that. We talked about you have to still sort of see things as half full that there is the possibility of change. And obviously going through what I saw at the museum there, it is very, very easy to just sort of put your head down and say, this is a lost cause. We're not going to get through this. But for this leader to just say, we can do this, I'm going to keep pushing and I'm going to keep talking. I'm going to keep sharing and I'm going to keep showing this to you. There has to be this perspective that it's possible. I guess we saw that in, you know, certainly the clearest example that is, you know, Nelson Mandela. I mean, you can still hold on and still believe. Yeah, I think in Hawaii, and that's a really good point, Sandra, and, you know, sort of the persistence to get through and keep your eye on the prize. And I'm thinking in Hawaii of two, maybe three people based on a film I saw about women's sports at the UH and how it developed with Donis Thompson as well as Patsy Mink. Both of whom were kind of, you know, maybe polarizing characters during their time. They were very strong women, but their legacy, you know, their focus on just women's rights and equality is really something that, you know, we hold up today. The quotes they have from Patsy Mink on her statue in front of the State Library are beautiful. And Maisie Hirono is another one who, you know, has long been underestimated, but during the Trump years just said, you know, I need to speak out and we changed her approach and is saying what needs to be said. And as we talk about leaders and what qualities we think are important for leaders and we'll go down with integrity and honesty. And then we look at former President Trump and we say that way to edit. So I'm putting X's of all these desirable characteristics, then you have to ask the question, is that how is he maintaining so much power? When we have our list of ideal characteristics, and we're X-ing out so many of them, how is this happening? It's just a, I think, a really important question. And, you know, it goes to kind of the future of the Republican Party if there is one. But I think it is something worth discussing is how is it possible that this man is retaining as much influence as he is even now? When we're learning his role in January 6th, there are still people saying that he's our guy, he should be the nominee in 2024. I mean, I'll just put it out there. How do you, why do you think that's happening? Yeah, well, we talked about emotional intelligence. And, you know, it's important, but I think he has great emotional intelligence. I mean, I mean, he understood how much xenophobia and misogynism and racism there is in America. And he was a master at tapping into that. And, you know, I think that's one explanation for his success. He has, he does have great emotional intelligence in kind of a very dark way. And he was able to kind of harness that. And I think that's one reason why he retains that kind of influence that, that people are falling behind him for all the worst reasons of humanity. Well, I have a feeling that his supporters would probably come up with a different list on what leadership means. I have heard some people say that, you know, what seems to appeal to folks about Trump is this strong man idea, you know, you need strength to lead. He's kind of the qualities that lead to, you know, autocrats like Putin and Hitler and Mussolini, which kind of leads him to the other side of, you know, I'm still trying to get my arms around why Biden's approval ratings are so low because I keep thinking, okay, so, you know, people don't approve of him. I mean, did you just remember who was president before that? You know, should we, you know, also value the fact that he was able to win and hopefully change many of the directions of the country? Yeah, I'm still trying to unpack why there's that. Yeah, I'm not, I'm not getting this. And sometimes I'm wondering if, if, if, if I'm that out of touch, or if, or if, you know, this whole notion of how we fold and how we get that information is now kind of flawed and maybe not as valuable or as, as useful as it once was. But I go back to, to Rebecca's point of a fear. I think there's a, there's a fear as well among, there has to be a fear among some of the powers that you're going to lose some of the things that we courageous people that we've talked about, who've made these changes, who've gone out, you know, you know, push for change. Like, like Patty was a great example, because during her time, she was, people hate, I mean, she was not, well, among those who, us who cared about what she was doing, but in, in, in Congress and the nation and even some places here, people didn't like the things that she, she was pushing too hard for many people. And so we see that when people are really, really, really pushing her, there's that fear response that says, you're going to take something away from, particularly in the area of Title IX sports, you know, my goodness gracious, the whole, all of college sports just almost railed against her. It's like, you can't do this because we're going to have to, you know, shut down the football team. Come on, please. But, but still she persisted. I mean, I guess that's the quote is on her statue too. She persisted. And people who are in that position of, or persist, they do strike fear among those who feel that they may lose out. And then you have a Trump to come along. And like you say, they tap into that fear and bring it to the forefront. I, I, I, there's no, I can't, I can't think of any other possible way to explain that. You know, I mean, he came on the heels of, you know, Obama, which I think was, you know, his, his election was quite a shock to the system for everyone. But, and that was a good thing. I mean, in a good way, I don't mean that bad, certainly. And then, you know, to think that there was this sort of maybe there was this sort of backlash, like, oh my goodness, what's happening? Is this, is this a harbinger of the future that we're going to have all this diversity? Well, we're living in this, we're living in this era of partisan loyalty, where we have people seeing their whole worldview is shaped by their partisan loyalty, and their ability, you know, their willingness to accept things as facts, as shaped by their partisan loyalty. So that's, that is kind of frightening. How are we going to shake people out of that? That, you know, you just don't fall into line with either CNN or Fox News. How can you come back and have more of a, you know, more of a balanced view? And in terms of that approval rating, you know, is there have we lost appreciation for the fact that it's a, you know, the executive can only do so many things that there is a, there is a Senate that you have to get through, that there's a Supreme Court that can make decisions, the President over has no control over that. So, you know, I think a lot of things are put on President Biden's shoulders over which he has no control, and the Republicans are more than ready to attribute, you know, the responsibility for everything to him. You know, inflation is purely his fault, regardless of what's happening with global grain in Ukraine and everything else. I'm not Biden's fault. So, you know, this, that one of the dangers of that partisan view is this unwillingness to take a more holistic view and think about what could be the possible causes beyond maybe the President of the United States. And let's think a little more globally. And you might find some global solutions. But I agree with everything I've heard. And the other thing I'll add while we're thinking together, because obviously none of us have the answers, if we did, maybe, yeah, we wouldn't need this job. Exactly. But like-minded people have been emboldened. And so, and we know that even in our personal lives, people have very short memories. People have short memories and fear can be a positive and or negative motivator. So, you know, all of the things that you all have stated, I think, apply. And it's human nature to be fickle if we go back all the way to Bible story. Moses got Israelites out of Egypt. And what did they do? Yeah, you know, they got away from the Pharaoh if you believe that story. And, you know, they still want happy. You just can't please them. It took them 40 years to make a two-day journey. The journey to the Promised Land really two days, but it took them 40 years. And so, and the reason is you can't get towards freedom. You can't move towards freedom with, you know, a mentality and bondage. And so, it's, you know, humans, we just, you know, we have, sometimes we are attracted to the shiny things. Do we see, can we name anybody that we think can bring the nation together and could be a viable candidate for our next presidential election? Can we think of any names that we would say, boy, I hope outside of Michelle Obama, who I wish would be a candidate? Who has told us she and has no intention of running? I know, which is just so bad. Yeah, the side of the day, but is that if we could think of those persons that are being that viable given the climate that we're in and the one you just referred to, who would want to take that role? Who would want to do that? I mean, we could, we could think of those. So why would you subject yourself, your family, your friends, and that's the, and that's the really kind of dangerous part of it now is that this leadership vacuum is so, it's so vast, it's hard to even bring in those people that we say have those qualities. They're not willing to necessarily do that unless you're, you know, kind of pushed against the wall, like Liz Cheney is, and you're in a position where you got to do it. On your product, some really important insights, the fear approach and attack, it depends on cultivating a bias that is really dehumanizing to a whole sector of people who at least according to our beliefs should be equally treated as human as everyone else. And you've also pointed out that what we might call inspiring resiliency may be one of the elements that enables people to survive that and to even overcome it. Are there people out there like Stacey Abrams or Cory Booker or others who are exhibiting the kinds of strength that might offer a charismatic alternative to that fear and bias, fear and loathing approach? Well, you named a couple. I'm from Minnesota, and I was a backer of Amy Klobuchar. I still think she would be a great candidate, but as Sondra was saying, you're going to get attacked, and she was attacked. It's for one thing that happened. It really wasn't something she did. It happened in a prosecutor's office when she was ahead of it. It wasn't her doing it, but nonetheless was attacked again ferociously. So I don't know if she would even be willing to do it again. I think of stuff like some of our city leaders, because I think those that are mayors of large cities, you're probably in a good position to just sort of get more. I was thinking of like a Gavin Newsom or something, but then again, it's San Francisco. And so while he may have these qualities that we think of in terms of leadership, is that going to translate to some Midwestern towns? Although I did really appreciate him deputizing people to bring lawsuits for violations of the gun control in response to, yeah. Legal model, that was just pretty cool. It's like, okay, this is what you want to do. Okay, we can do that. Yeah, I loved it. I thought it was great. And what about another factor that the media doesn't even address and we never see in campaign is we know that leadership really has to be an effective, collaborative, collective team exercise. And we never hear candidates for leadership talk about what kind of teams they might offer, what kind of teams they might put together. So maybe one of the answers is find those people with inspiring resilience, courage, character, conscience, and charisma, bring those together and present them as a team and move away from partisanship in the team building to the leadership qualities in the team building. People have the courage. Because, oh, sorry, go ahead, David. I'd say people have the courage to trust other people. You know, in that sense that if you're going to be a true collaborator, you have to be willing to trust other people. And if you do that, they'll trust you. Yes. Which is the other mark of a good leader to begin with, is assembling those people that you can work together with and having that trust between them. And so that's another piece of it, too. Exactly. Now, who are they and who are these people that we can pull together and trust? That is a hard question. I can think of leaders nationally, state or local that have really assembled the effective inspiring teams. That's been a while. It's been a while. Louise, I started talking the same time as you. I'm sorry. I was just thinking of the fact that, you know, we're very used to thinking of a leader, you know, sort of one person leading. And that's been our model through, well, monarchies, presidencies, and the like. And I think, you know, it's important to have that figurehead. But what, you know, what we're learning is that it's the people around them, as you say, it's the ability to collaborate and how strong your team is that also helps form that leader or makes that person effective. And, you know, maybe we need to rethink of leadership being not just about one leader, but as you say, David, you know, a collaborative approach, maybe we will not, we won't get away from that model of wanting to focus on one person as sort of being the person who envisions and can articulate the mission. But it's, you know, maybe it's also a matter of identifying the team, you know, and who can build each other up. The great point, because yeah, usually a leader is also a great manager. It's not necessarily the other way around. But if you have the right people around you and you can manage their talents, then you can be very effective as a leader. Yeah. Hey, and in our last minute, some final thoughts. Leadership. What's the direction we really need to see? I'm gonna stay with courage. Integrity. Persistence. It's a marathon. Uh-huh. Uh-huh. I do agree with optimism. Yeah. And maybe all of those and the patience, persistence, and resilience of those who have managed to do that, the Mandela's, the Gandhi's, and those leaders historically. Thank you for joining us today. Yeah, go ahead, Luis. I have to say, using your powers for good, not evil, you know, having EQ. Well, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. And you guys have all done that. That's what you do. That's what you guys all do. It's cool. Come back and join us again in a couple of weeks. We will explore more of the things that help will provoke thoughts and bring people together. Take care. Have a good week and a good weekend and happy birthday, Sandra. Thank you. Thanks, Chuck, for bringing us together. Thank you so much for watching Think Tech Hawaii. If you like what we do, please like us and click the subscribe button on YouTube and the follow button on Vimeo. You can also follow us on Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, and LinkedIn, and donate to us at thinktechhawaii.com. Mahalo.