 Welcome everyone. No summary is Golden Threads live stream series of conversations with artists who don't fit in a box. Golden Thread is the first theater company in the US devoted to plays from or about the Middle East. It was founded in 1996 by playwright and director Taranjia Hazarian and based in on the unseated Ramatwish Ohlone land known colonially today at San Francisco, California. And it's quite special because Taranj is actually in the audience with me here live right now. So Taranj will be here as well and we'll say hello to her in a minute. My name is Sarah Fami. My pronouns is she hers and I'm the co founder and chair of the Middle Eastern theater focus group at the Association of theater and higher education, and a scholar of our D coloniali by way of visual description. I'm an Arab woman shoulder length, a dark brown curly hair. I'm wearing a colorful scarf, and it's been a red, a dark red sweater shirt. And behind me, I have a dark blue screen, and then a microphone right next to me. I'm joining, I'm joining today from the Middle Eastern North African Theater Makers Alliance convening to the monatma convening happening right now at the American National Museum, which is on the unseated lands of the initial Saudi Arabia, Miami, Missa go up, auto a priori and pot to army. Nations, Colonially known as dearborn Michigan. A little bit about men not before we get started men not as a national movement that was created in 2019 after several years of individual advocacy efforts by some of the most leading figures of leading figures of Mina theater and Middle Eastern companies, Golden and one of them. And currently not my is working towards creating an organization is a 501 three C. Before I introduce you to our panelists, I want to have a very warm welcome to the folks who are also in the audience, I am virtually I am here in in person with some people from men not as well. And even though this is a zoom session, this will also be hybrid. So today's nice summary episode is titled critiquing the critics, the reception of Mina productions. And for this conversation I'm delighted to welcome to theater performance professionals. Melek Najad and Korean family. Well, I'll introduce in a moment. Today's discussion will focus on the reception of Middle Eastern North African productions in the US by theater critics. And before I introduce our panelists I would also like to take a moment to welcome folks who are joining us here on zoom, as well as those tuning into the live stream on how around those here of us in the zoom room, please feel free to utilize the chat function to post your comments and questions throughout the conversations, and we will leave approximately 1010 minutes at the end for a question and answer. So without further ado, it is my great pleasure to be joined today with melek and Karim. So I'll introduce them briefly please feel free to also add to your bios. So I'm done. So men of the job is an associate professor of theater arts at the University of Oregon. He's a director playwright and scholar of Arab American Middle Eastern American theater, a founding member of not more. And the author of several books, most recently, the Middle Eastern American theater communities, cultures and artists. And then our other panelist is Karim Faham, a Canadian born New York City based Brexit right of Egyptian descent. He was named a 2020 TCG rise leader of color. And he's the co founder and chair of the Middle Eastern American writers lab. Very happy to have you. And thank you for those of you introducing yourselves in the chat as well. Mellik would you like to add anything else to those introductions those are very very brief introduction. No. Okay, well then, what was that we will dive right in. And also another thing about the panel today it will be a little bit different from the other other videos in this series because I do have a live audience here with me at the Arab American National Museum. So occasionally I will ask a question to our panelists, and then I will also move my laptop around, and you will get a chance to see the folks who are here in person, and hear their insights as well. So we will hopefully have a conversation as a hybrid conversation. Okay. So then, without further ado, let's dive right into these questions. And the first thing that I'd like us to investigate is, have you noticed any changing in mainstream US reception of mean of productions over the last few years. So this can either be productions that you've worked on productions in general, but have you in your experience witnessed any of these changes, and either of you can go first. Take it away Malik. Okay, thank you. Greetings to all of you there in the audience. My dear friends and colleagues. So thank you for hosting for narrate interviewing us today. And also thanks to Golden Thread Productions for inviting us to be here. As far as critical reception. You know we're in a conundrum. On the one hand, we sometimes get no reviews, which is extremely frustrating. Or when we do get reviews, they're often very problematic in the way that they portray our work. When we also get reviews, they flatten our work and take away the very Middle Eastern nests of the work by by calling them human plays. And so this kind of this kind of uncertainty in the way that we are perceived in the way that we are reviewed is extremely frustrating. The place can't seem to be taken for their own merit because of what they are and what they represent. They're often either ignored, or they're treated very badly by adding elements of Orientalism or racial profiling, or lastly they basically skirt the entire issues of the plays. So, so this becomes a terrible place to be because it's in either assists us in our mission of creating these works and disseminating them to the wider public. But it actually hurts the works in many ways because of these very confused notions of what to do. And I think it gets back to the fact that I think Americans in general don't know what to do with us so to speak but in the entertainment field. There seems to be just a lack of awareness of who we are, what we represent, and how we manifest that representation on stage or in film or television. This is the inherent problem I've been seeing based on reviews I've read, reviews I've not received, and the fact that there's been generally a frustrating incongruence. And I think it goes all the way back to the very early Arab American writers. I mean, if you go to a bookstore, and you look up Khalil Zabran's work, you find it under spirituality, metaphysics. I mean, why he was a poet, he was a novelist in his own way. Same thing with Amin Rehani. So it started way back in the beginning of the 20th century they're not knowing what we were and what to do with us. And sadly, it's going on today. And I think that that becomes the crux of the problem that we're facing right now. I mean, I have a lot of interesting things. I mean, I, to offer, I wouldn't say a different perspective because I agree with a lot of what's being said I mean the thing I would want to sort of celebrate is the fact that, you know, in my experience, having worked as a Middle Eastern, I mean, being a Middle Eastern theater artist right but like being very actively involved in, you know, being a director and an advocate and now playwright. It feels like when I first, I guess you could mark by the beginning of my professional career like, let's say when I finished graduate school back in 2007 just to be really blunt about it right so when I think about the fact that back then, all of the work that I was seeing I live in New York and a lot of my my practice has been New York up until now, you know, that there were any time I saw characters like myself reflected on stage they were not even being written by members of our community right so in the fact that like in these year in these intervening years, you know, it's now becoming increased not overwhelmingly common but certainly increasingly common that we actually are seeing our community attaining productions like I really note the fact that you know last season in New York there were four plays by writers of Middle Eastern descent at major off Broadway theaters which to me felt like a huge sort of step forward in terms of the representation of our voices right so, you know, what I want to celebrate is the fact that the work seems to be happening on an increasing level and then being represented at theaters, you know, of different sizes, traditionally white theaters, you know, predominantly white theaters. So he feels like the beginning of a successful journey or the evolution of a successful journey that our voices are being seen and that our work is being represented right. And then I do find it interesting right that in in perusing the sort of critical response again I'll, to be really sort of practical I'll reference the, the, the shows that I saw by, you know, members of our community in New York last season. You know, Mona Monsour's vagrant trilogy which happened at the public theater, there are two productions by Sanas to see wonderful Iranian writer one at Atlantic theater company and one at playwrights horizons and then Sylvia queries play selling Kabul which was also a playwrights horizons. You know, what I find interesting about the sort of let's say critical response of those at least here in New York is that this is largely the first time many critics are encountering work from our community you know, this is the thing that I now am facing as a, as a writer I mean I am in a very interesting and wonderful position that I'm having several productions with my plays this season I have three plays all getting world premieres in this theater season. And there's a total of eight productions of my work happening and out of those eight productions I believe I could be wrong about the math of this but I'm pretty sure I'm not that six of the eight producing organizations. This is the first ever writer of Middle Eastern set that those theaters have ever programmed, right, and we're talking about certain theaters I've been programming work for 3040 even 50 years right so I actually really had to spend a lot of time thinking about that. And so when, let's say right for the community at large that my work now gets to get represented. Right. But like why is it that in 22 and 23 that I get to be, you know, the first Middle Eastern writer that these theaters have ever program so not necessarily to give the critics the benefit of the doubt but to name the truth of the matter that sometimes there might be critics who are actually encountering the work of a Middle Eastern writer at a specific organization or theater for the very very first time right so I want to contrast that to, let's say, our sister underrepresented and misrepresented communities some of those communities have a longer history of theater happening and predominantly white institutions so that critics might have a different context in their work, you know, they might be able to look at the work of Jackie Sibley's Drury or, you know, Jordan Cooper and put it in relationship to, you know, African American writers that have come before them right. What context do they have for me in my work what context they have for analysis work, you know. So, so I, while I absolutely agree with Malik that sometimes those reviews sort of do might flatten right. I also wanted to sort of name the complexity that like we are still I always use the term and I wish that I didn't have to keep using it but I think it's still arguably very true that we're still building a contemporary canon of Middle Eastern American theater, you know, and that we are here in building that canon than some of our other communities so I think that us that canon continues to grow right and and starts to represent the huge complexity of what our community is which is so, you know, mixed right, and frankly so tied in with whiteness and white passing in certain cases right that there'll be hopefully a greater nuance and complexity in the critical response in the same way there's a greater nuance and complexity in the writing because writers are are being given I think a little bit more agency and and freedom to tell the stories that they need to tell. Yeah, I mean and thank you for that like I mean you definitely bring up a lot of really important things about the challenges about the opportunities about the hopefulness of where this is going. And also the issue of representation and then and coalitions and I think one of one of the really exciting things for me right now in this moment is I'm here. And I'm in Middle Eastern North African theater makers Alliance convening where a lot of these conversations have been happening and about well what does. How do we keep producing work waiting for critical responses and how do we wait for the for the critics to understand this sort of work beyond the Orientalist troops and beyond the stereotypes. How do we try to create work that has white passing or a similar like white assimilation ideas with it in order for it to succeed, and how do we measure that Marcus says so thank you for bringing those really important points up. I want to take a minute before I move on to my next question. I've got I'm joined here with members of our monatoma community in person as well so I guess just maybe one. If one person has another comment about and folks folks on zoom I will also be repeating this response as well, because our audience members in person and not might. So, have any of you noticed changes in mainstream US reception of of Mina work, and perhaps just like in one or two sentences if anyone would like to speak on that. This isn't typically the no summary structure however we wanted to take advantage of the fact that we're here at Monatman we've got plenty of wonderful voices in the space with us as well. Anything that anyone has noticed, you don't have to all jump up to speak at once. And also if you would like to wait to be invited into the conversation until a later point, that is also welcome. Okay. All right, well then we're going to move on to my next question. Can I add something. Yeah, so I'm so inspired by your journey as a director and playwright and I'm so happy that you're getting the do you deserve. You know what is frustrating to me as a historian of this genre is the first ever American play was written in 1908. We are 100 years later, more, and we're only now getting recognition that this thing exists. This is where I get frustrated is there have been plays that have been done for about 100 years. And now our critics saying, Oh, this thing exists. How interesting. That is my frustration is, why were we basically erased from theater history for all of this time, ignored for all of this time. And only now in the 21st century, 22 years into the 21st century, are we getting this kind of reception that you're talking about cutting. So I agree with you. It's wonderful. It's great. We're finally getting productions were finally being recognized. But I, I find it baffling that theaters have only now at this moment, had their first Middle Eastern American playwright on their dockets so this is where this is where my frustration says both the theater maker, Arab American theater maker and also as a historian and critic of theater become very. He does upset me. And then of course, the reviews themselves can be quite upsetting. And what hopefully we'll get some time to talk about some specific examples saw as we go forward but but just just to give you my counter to your counter which I totally appreciate because I think having the glass half full is a great thing for us because it is happening and it is exciting. But I just, I, it's far too late. This, this should have happened much, much, much earlier than now. And it's a grueling process, especially since we're still seeing this recognition in certain theater hubs or the big cities. And it's still, we're still fighting for just your existence of Hello, this is Middle Eastern theater is a thing. And it has multiplicities and it's multi lingual and it has multiple diverse representations and so we're only just scratching the surface with that. So I guess my second question, beating off of medical guess your last point. What are the different considerations, if any, that either of you have had to take into consideration when producing plays for companies that are on the one hand really dedicated to the production of meaner work so Golden Thread, as an example, versus a company that is only just beginning their encounter with Middle Eastern theater productions. And, and I guess, for example, to what extent do you, when you're working with with the exact same play of maybe these two different companies, do you take white the white ways into consideration with this work, and with the reception of how will be received. So I guess, we'll go to Melek since we left off with you. And you can refer to specific examples. I'll give you one example that Ismael Khalidi told me about when his play was produced at a non Middle Eastern American company. He was, you know, very happy that the play was being produced there. It was a solid production. As he walked up to opening night there was a banner above the theater that had the play the name of the play in Arabic, but with all the letters disconnected. So that's a mistake that is that is not taking your audience into consideration there was an attempt was obviously made but it was a very bad attempt. I think that when we are trying to work in these companies that are not devoted to Middle Eastern American work, we need to be very clear with them that you know these are plays that are specific to these cultures and these, these communities. That special consideration must be given, and you can't treat it like any other play by Williams or Miller or Shakespeare it's it's it is wholly different and it deserves a different treatment. Therefore, you avoid if you're working with designers that are not Middle Eastern you avoid say Orientalist tropes in design. If you're working with actors you avoid having them miss speak the, the language, whether it's Arabic or Farsi or Turkish whatever it may be. You, you, you try to avoid the pitfalls that these plays can often fall these productions I should say can fall into. And as playwrights. I think it's incumbent upon us to just insist on not allowing that to happen, because when it does it's it's really defeating and it really makes the audience feel feel like they're being taken for granted in my opinion. Well, so I think that that's the kind of extra work that has to be done that at a non Middle Eastern American theater company, because when you work in a Middle Eastern American theater company, like golden thread like Silk Road Rising, like more and others, you really have, you have a, a mentality that doesn't allow for that kind of kind of laziness artistic laziness to occur. Because you have somebody there to hold them to account. But I don't feel that that's necessarily always the case in non Middle Eastern American companies. I have a lot to say about, about this, about this topic because I'm like in the throws of it like right now and I'm learning a lot. And it's, and it's a really, it's a really helpful, you know, learning experience and I have to, you know, your questions are really makes a difference on something that now you know and looking back on it I feel so grateful that you know my in a way journey towards towards being a playwright which I am now alongside being a director actually really did start out of a relationship with a Middle Eastern theater company New York theater here in New York because they they were the first theater to essentially commission me as a playwright I mean they actually commissioned me as a director but in doing so allowed me to and encourage me to write a play, which is sort of what I call my first play even though I had written other places as a, as a youth but you know the first sort of play that I produced in any way professionally in New York and sort of launched me into a career of continuing to write plays. And in that case that I was working with, you know, a Middle Eastern theater company that had, they had all of the cultural knowledge and cultural context to support the work that I was doing. And in a way I took for granted at the time because I was like well, you know they know me they know everything about the culture. And then, you know subsequently I've worked, you know, almost exclusively and predominantly one institutions I have directed a workshop at and it's self uprising in Chicago and I haven't yet had the opportunity to work, you know, formally with golden thread but I know that will change one day, but you know so my experience has been in PWI as both a playwright and as a director right. And what I'm experiencing at this very moment, I mean, literally, like what I was working on this morning and have been for the last few weeks is that I am as the writer of, you know, the work that's being produced at these theaters this season. I'm getting intimately involved in every aspect of how the work is being made. Right. And, you know, even prior to, you know, sort of finalizing contracts and all that kind of stuff really did. The main this for you know other Middle Eastern artists who who might listen to this right is that it's important to outline right from the top what your expectations are and what your sort of non negotiables are right because what I really wanted to make the work that I'm sure was handled with as much delicacy and specificity as possible is all of the things that ultimately are going to affect the audience's experience of the work and how they're interacting with my work as a Middle Eastern artist right, which is essentially every aspect of how the show gets done is to name some really key ones it's like director selection designer selection, actor selection, very important marketing and outreach like all of those things so I am. And again I can't compare my experience to anybody else because it's only my experience but I'm spending a tremendous amount of my time right now, like really getting specific with all of those aspects of how my productions are being made right. And I'm asking to look at the marketing language and look at the marketing image right. And I have to say you know it's it's been, I feel in general like I've been met with a lot of positive response in terms of like, Oh okay it's important to you that you see that and I'm really glad that theaters have been open to that because there was an instance and one of my upcoming films in which you know a marketing manager sent me an image for you know the poster of the show. And actually it happened in two in two different theaters and I said, you know there was a, there was some imagery that I was just like, to me it felt like it really sent the wrong message about the show, right. And, you know, it wasn't a I wasn't critiquing them and I just said, you know, this does this misses the mark for me. And I tried to be as specific as possible so that the next time that happens if another Middle Eastern artist gets the privilege that I do have having those productions, maybe if that marketing manager is still in that position. They'll have something will have happened right so I again trying to approach it as here's somebody who maybe has never, you know, had to market a show by a Middle Eastern writer, you know, in one of my shows deals explicitly with Islam and the practice of Islam, right. So the, the imagery related to Islam is something that, you know, obviously those of us who come from a Muslim background, sort of understand the complexity of like Muslim iconography or imagery right. So I was just sort of explaining like, why that missed the mark for me right. But so all of that to say is that I think our community in particular can't take for granted that like we have to be very hands on, because again, we are sort of setting a standard right we are setting a standard for what you know the next generation of Middle Eastern artists is going to experience right. I'm taking that responsibility very very seriously, because if compromise if I allow compromises to be made those compromises sort of like get solidified right it's like, you know, but if, if somebody's like a little cream foamy got, you know, casting approval and designer approval, and you know blah blah blah blah blah blah blah I'm hoping that that next artist can ask for the same thing, you know, but just say did not take for granted that those things will be granted to you, you know, and not that I had to fight for it, but you know there are a couple of times where, you know, I've asked a question, and somebody's like, oh no playwright has ever asked that question before. I was like, well, you know, that that shows that you know, there's a different level of commitment, I think that we have to make and it is not going to lie every once in a while it feels a little like burdensome, you know, like, when we're talking particularly about, you know, talking about the complexities of casting and talking about, you know how we're holding more complicated conversations. But I do think we're at a really interesting moment in sort of the present and possible future of Middle Eastern theater right where we are starting to see, you know, a broader complexity of stories being told a more diverse roster of artists, I think some very interesting plays as well that are emerging from some of our more established playwrights and some of our earlier career playwrights. But it's when those shows move into production, which is ultimately how the audience is going to be experiencing them. Right. Because again I think of literary theater it's not a literary art form but an art form that is about production. Right. I do think that it is the responsibility of the artist, right, the generative artists and in this instance I'm talking about myself as a playwright, to be very hands on in minding how those things are made. And I try to go into all of those situations with good faith assumptions right that you know the theater is programming my work they want to do it well. I can help them do that and also sort of help open their eyes to how all artists should be supported regardless of their, you know racial or ethnic background, then, you know, I'll have done sort of a net good for the field. But it is, it is, let's say, maybe more work than some of some people who don't come from our community might be facing in those same situations. I mean, I faced a similar situation in publishing so when my book came out Middle Eastern American Theater, that the marketing department sent me a photo of a production of Petra Palace that was done in Britain. And I was, I was horrified, it was so Orientalist, so wrong, you know, and I had to face that moment of, what do I say, you know, because the marketing manager was so excited about the image. And I just really struggled, but I thought I just have to say something this is not acceptable. And so I, I did, and it was an awkward conversation but a necessary conversation. And we finally were able to get one of Toronto's productions placed on the front cover instead. So, so yeah, I think that we, we all need to have uncomfortable conversations with these publishers, producers, theater companies. And it moves us to do that, even as as awkward as it is as difficult as it is. But yeah, as you said, cutting, it sets the stage, so to speak, for future productions and allows for less of that kind of, again, just mistaken identity I'm sure, if we don't, if we don't say something so that is part and parcel of the work and, and it's unfortunate we have to do that I mean people who produce. I'm sure that you know people who produce plays that are not of an experience other than the, you know, mainstream American experience usually don't have to do this at all. This is not even their problem. But for us it is a it's an extra burden and one that we have to take on. And I think to complicate that a little bit specifically in relation to the reception by theater critics. So, you've both spoken to this, and it's such a fatigue it's like this unspoken visible labor that happens that goes uncredited that nobody often thinks about, except those of us who are in the room so I'm mean a theater makers who are trying to make this And it's often like, well, who has that burden of, of educating and and kind of undoing that racism why is that the undoing of racism falling on the shoulders of those who are impacted by and those who are oppressed by it. So this is a whole other conversation of that and, and something that I that I keep thinking about in terms of agency in terms of how we as as playwrights as directors as actors is of people involved in marketing, have that agency and begin to take that agency. One of the places and please challenge me on this, if I am incorrect, but I don't know how much agency playwrights and directors might actually have when it comes time to a theater critic, because a theater critic comes in, and you can't, and they have their own views and they have their own perceptions. And so I guess this opens up for the conversation of how many theater critics of minoritized backgrounds are there. And how many theater critics of Middle Eastern North African descent, are there out there and, and if the answer is none or very limited then how do we, how do you think we can prepare ourselves for, or to have more Middle Eastern North African theater critics, because we, I don't know that we have agency. Once it's out of it because it's their opinion. But isn't that what criticism is right I mean like I've been thinking a lot about this question, right because I was like, what am I going to say about criticism right and you know I can't help but go right back to. And I mean this conversation is coming at a really interesting time and that I just, you know, close my first ever, you know, full, fully professional production as a playwright so essentially the first time that my work as a playwright has been, you know, subject to criticism and, and I got a bunch of reviews right so you know, and, and I, any playwright, you know, playwrights out there will will agree like any playwright. And I think this is much more true for, for a playwright than being both a playwright and director, I sort of feel, I felt it in a very, very different way as a playwright than as a director right because as a director well anyways for obvious reasons right but as a director, okay. I am putting on, I am telling a very, you know, specific story that is dealing with. So you know my play dote and Anna has an Egyptian character I'm from an Egyptian background and white character right, and there are some, you know, let's say very provocative at times. And to me I think very sort of like, darkly funny looks at like what it means to be a Middle Eastern American artist because one of the characters in the play the Middle Eastern characters and actor right. And I was reflecting actually to an Egyptian colleague of mine who's an actor who saw the show. I was having a coffee date with him the other day and and I was there when he watched the show. And he was able to sort of read and receive the that, you know, use of humor in such a specific way that non Middle Eastern people, you know, largely were incapable. Right. So to me it's still a net win because I'm like well I didn't necessarily write, you know, the play for that white critic or that white audience and maybe in a way at least those moments were, you know, you call them an Easter egg for that, you know, that's kind of specific audience member right, but I know that my work had the intended effect, because that actor, you know, that person that audience member was able to really understand what I was doing, you know. And I read, you know, people don't read your reviews don't read reviews I was like hey look this is the first time this is happening to me so I'm going to read these freaking reviews, you know, because I really wanted to learn something about what it means to be a play right in in conversation with critics right because I remember something that I learned when I was a young theater maker that I want to believe is still true right, it was from a very sort of, you know, hopeful place where they talked about the correlation between the work of the theater artist, the audience and the critic right and that it's a triangular sort of conversation in which the critic is actually performing a very important function for sort of a translation of the work from from the theater to the theater maker to the audience right now. What I would argue that it's less about let's say the racial background of the critic, the, the sort of gaze of the critic because I think that that that's a pretty broad approach. The fact that criticism theatrical criticism in this country in general has really the quality of it has really plummeted over the last several decades right, and that the art form of criticism isn't being celebrated and taught. And therefore I think that the, what I perceived right and even some of the, let's say more reputable publications that did review my work is that the quality of the criticism itself felt to me very kind of lacking it lacked in just a critical response period, sort of irrespective of the sort of my work as a Middle Eastern artist right so I will be very sort of curious for myself to track. I will read the rest of my reviews the season because I do think it's an important thing for me as the artist to understand how that work is being received but you know the conversations I've been having internally with some of my colleagues is like, how do we either sort of encourage the critical community right and part of it is like, who is critiquing and why are they critiquing and how are they getting those jobs. And I've heard of, you know, the complexity of what criticism is doing for the field. And also going like, do critics still matter, you know, and I actually don't know the answer to that question anymore. I literally don't know, you know, so, so to me it's like, I think just like there's a greater diversity in artists whose work is being represented. I don't want to see that diversity in the critical community as well, but I'm more interested in having the conversation of like, how can we make that criticism the art form of that criticism is itself as sort of successful as it I think it wants to be and responds to the really interesting work that is happening today so there was a very long monologue but Malik I don't know how you're sort of responding to that but before you respond Malik to I guess also adding on to that. Do you think that the scholarship aspect so like within because you've done a lot of scholarship love like academic publications on this. And that is theater criticism and how do you think that is different from theater criticism that is happening outside of the academy as well because of what you're you're interacting with. Okay, so theater is an ecosystem, right, we need all of the parts of the ecosystem to work in tandem. If we're going to have a successful theater. I really find artists to say critics don't matter to be problematic because they are part of that ecosystem for better or worse, they're part of the ecosystem. So what we need is we need to not necessarily diversify the entire field because that's impossible. You know, these, these papers of note, let's call them a higher, you know people out of the big schools and they get people with reputations most likely not minorities sometimes and so we have to deal with that. I think that we need to be looking at theater holistically so when I talk to people of Middle Eastern descent and I say you know you're, you know, I would encourage you to encourage your child to go into this field. It's not always to be a director or playwright or an actor or whatever an actress whatever. It's also you know go into academia go into the places where we can start to build that ecosystem so for instance, I teach classes in Middle Eastern theater in Middle Eastern theater, and my, my classes are predominantly not minorities in Oregon, that's a given. So, essentially, I'm hoping that I'm going to infuse those students with the cultural background necessary to understand these plays. I assign them essays where they have to critique the plays and write about them. And I give them notes and we have this back and forth we have a dialogue academic dialogue about these things and same thing with graduate students, I encourage them to write critiques and academic journals in order to understand plays. So, that is a very vital part of this ecosystem, and my feeling is, as with you cutting that the quality of criticism has declined for multiple reasons. I think the corporatization of newspapers is very problematic they're getting rid of critics instead of adding them. I mean here we have very few critics left working in any of our periodicals. But then also we don't have that kind of quality of criticism that you're referring to cutting, which Harold Plurman gave a criterion of being a critic and if you read it you feel like you have to have five PhDs but he's kind of right about this. So, I feel that we need to have more people on the inside so to speak of journalism, academia, and other places theaters in order to, you know, create the conditions by which criticism can be done well, based on the works that we create. And so that for me is a very, it's a missing component and we've had we have very few people, though it's growing thank goodness in academia, who are teaching students, predominantly non Middle Eastern students, how to look at these people holistically within their context and to understand them better so that if they do go off and become critics, they perhaps will have that kind of background, and say yeah you know I read Middle Eastern plays for a semester at this university. I have a sense of what they are so now I can write about them because I've done it before. And so this is the kind of ecosystem we need to continually build, if we're going to have a really healthy ecosystem that that will help to critique our work properly, rather than having critics that have only read the great American canon or British canon, which excluded us completely for generations. And, and they come to look at our plays through the lens of looking at a Tennessee Williams play or an Arthur Miller play or Eugene O'Neill play. They're fundamentally different place, even though yes they have acts and actors and dialogue all of that that's fine. But you know one needs to understand the cultural background in understanding this so I feel that that is a major step that needs to be taken, if we're going to have proper criticism of our work in the future. Yeah, thank you for that medic and I completely agree with that of the multifaceted approaches to how to dismantle this systemic oppression systemic racism that has been against us for so long. Before I open this up to questions from the audience and to ask my last final question I'd like to take this moment to ask those of you in in joining us in person here and not now. Is there anything kind of going off of this question of the future that we want to see of how do we, how do we continue working where it's like with with the current situation that we've got where we have very limited representation of in theater critics. I just want to invite you into this conversation of, is there anything that that you're seeing that you've been surprised by or is there a specific response that caught you off guard or that you weren't expecting in any sort of way. And then how do you think we can continue moving into this future as well. So as you wait for that answer, can I bring up just a few interesting things I've noted in in my research into this particular field in preparation. First of all, Jamil's conversation about heavy vice. If Jamil's in the audience, perhaps, as Jamil can give us is in the audience. Yes. Hello my friend. I think that that is a very interesting back and forth exchange that Jamil engaged in in the way that his work was being treated by the Chicago critics. But also I just want to bring up a few things about what's recently happened. The vagrant trilogy opened on April 8, and ran through May 15, and the New York Times published their review on May 10. So think about how late that is in a run, and how how on the final week you published the review. And unfortunately by that time the two lead actors were out ill. And so they saw the understudies performed so they didn't even see the original production. That is a problem. Why were they so late to this production they should have been there earlier to garner more buzz or whatever you want to call it in order for people to come see this production. So that was problematic. You know, I was looking at the review of Dodie and Diana that was done in the New York Times. And they rarely issued Arabness and they only mentioned the characters racial and cultural differences, as if it was just a sidebar, and I think there's more to it than just a sidebar. Laura had a review in the Wall Street Journal, but it was under the opinion section, not the arts. I don't understand why, why is it under the opinion section it's a it's a work of art. So that was, even though it gave effusive praise but it was in the wrong section. Time and time again we see this flattening of it and also when I directed scenes from 71 years at Golden Thread, we received almost no periodical in San Francisco that gave us a review. It's outrageous. I mean why, why wasn't I personally think it was because of the Palestinian mess of the play and the uncomfortability that critics have with dealing with Palestine, frankly. I think the same thing could probably be said about the vagrant trilogy. So, again, all of these critics, you know they, they, they engage with our work in different ways, but they tend to just skirt the real issues that these plays are about looking for more of a human experience. They said, of Noura they said, it preaches no sermons it will send you home, not to do anything in particular, but Miss Rafa was given us a human drama. So again, trying to take away any Arabness take away any Iraqiness take away any and turn it into just a human play. So these are the problems that we face they keep trying to rob the place of their in their inherent Middle Eastern Yes, it is. And I guess coming out of this conversation I think I really want to encourage our audiences to continue thinking of this because it's something that we always grapple with of the current situation with theater critics as it is. It's a disservice to our playwrights as a disservice to the theater that we make. And it's unfortunate because you can't even offer a critical response when you're so clouded with with the inability to actually speak about the artistry itself. And so how are we ever going to support our artists or support our directors or playwrights or actors ever advance if they're never even given that opportunity for their work to be seen in the way that it's actually truly beautiful and really powerful and in the ways that we know it is and I think the hard thing going back to something that Karim that you said earlier of you have that one, the one other Egyptian friend who came in and saw it and like shared those moments and you're like yes this is when I knew that I had succeeded. And so it's interesting that when people from the MENA community come to see the plays, it resonates with them, and they realize the brilliant artistry and it, and yet when when it's open to theater critics, it's a different conversation. In the last few minutes that we've got, I'd like to invite our audiences. If you've got any questions, please pop them in the chat box. I'm happy to respond to them. And those of you in person, if you have any questions, I will be repeating them into the zoom screen as well. But do we have any questions, and perhaps we can even go back to the question of critique the title of this series itself or of this session of critiquing the critics of what do they miss, even when they're trying to critique something. Yes, Eliza in the back so I've got an in person question so I will listen to it. I encourage you to stand up or come as, okay great come as close as possible to me and then I'll repeat it into the screen. Informing their audience, no because they're not of Middle Eastern descent, and also by doing that also provides the critic with information that they might not, because I think a lot of critics today, I don't know, they don't do their research, and I think they need to be encouraged to do so. So by having to do all the talk on hand to help facilitate more information about the world display would be tremendously helpful and I also think cultural advisors are absolutely mandatory for theaters that have never done this kind of work. I know personally from a production of my play that I did in, in a theater that when I walked into the theater and saw the set design. It was absolutely nothing like what I had written, and I had a choice to make do I go with that, because I respected the director and hoped that what could I learn from it, which is the choice I ultimately did make. But it wasn't the play I wrote it was completely, completely changed from this director's point of view. So, I think, I think having those kind of two things cultural advisors and excellent well meturgy to help support the world of the play would make a great difference because our writers today are not educated. Oh yes. And I take it from seeing your responses that you could hear that clearly. That is absolutely correct. Yes, yes, we need a theaters need to invest in our place outside of just picking a play by Middle Eastern American playwright, they need to invest in a dramaturg or a cultural advisor or both. I completely agree or an assistant how about an assistant director, you know that could help. Those kinds of things are necessary they're crucial for us to have proper dramaturgy for these works and, and I feel that theaters tend to, they want some of us but not all of us, right. You know, you can play and I'll take your playwright but the rest of the crew, the staff will be or the production team will be our regular production team and frankly that's not acceptable. It's almost like they're trying to check a box by saying there we go. We've done it. And ultimately when then fronters look at the theaters or when audiences are coming into look at the theaters. And they'll see, oh, well, Karim family was produced here great they did the thing that diversifying where they're not seeing is the behind the scenes, and who was involved with how to actually come to fruition. I've got a couple of I've got two of our questions. Three. Can you hear Torange. Have you ever been a cultural consultant or were you ever offered that option by the eight productions you're having currently. Yeah, I mean, you know it's I have a complex feeling around cultural consultancy having been been a cultural consultant myself, right. And so what I've been sort of endeavoring for is is more sort of culturally specific dramaturg. And certainly because these are world premieres the most important thing is that what's being held the space that's being held in the room is so that the artists of Middle Eastern descent myself included, including the actors because of course all of these roles for Middle Eastern actors are able to have a sort of complex and nuanced conversation around it and what I've been less involved in but but hopefully will be increasingly involved in is also having sort of cultural connectors in each of the communities where the work is being seen so that that sort of audience engagement component has also dealt with. And you know this is again a learning curve for me but having been a cultural consultant myself. I think what the theaters tend to really want to prioritize, which I actually agree with talking about the PWIs is community engagement because they haven't engaged with our communities before. And I think that's so much better done on the ground from people who are already represented in that community so bringing in a cultural consultant from the outside to work on the community engagement component has at least when I've been asked to do that has been proven to be very unsuccessful. So, you know, similarly what I was talking about before what I can control is how is the art made and what is story as the art being told. So what I've been really advocating for is culturally specific dramaturgs, and making sure that people who sort of represent the cultures in the story are actually represented in the ring. Thank you for that. I'm going to go to Jamil and then I'll go to a question in the chat and then one final question and that will be our time. So I just want to build on what Malik had said about our experiences so Chicago has a long history of racist critics. And I'm not just talking about critics who are subtly racist and in their reviews but just, you know, people who sort of see it as their role to to gatekeep in a certain way. And the critic who Malik had mentioned had, you know, a history of attacking any work that had, you know, any association with Arabs or Middle Eastern people or Muslims. And, you know, we stood up to her and we pushed back and we paid an enormous price for that and I probably don't even know the extent of the price that we paid for that. But I think it's so important for us all to remember that we can push back we can call out a critic and we can refuse to deal with a critic and fast forward a number of years what happened in the Chicago Theater community was artists were demanding that she not be invited to openings. And there was a very strong collective response on the part of the community, but particularly artists of color, or overwhelmingly let's say artists of color, who said, we will not accept her in the audience. So, you know, it is it is not an easy fight to fight, particularly at that, you know, early time when everyone was telling us do not do this are you crazy you're going to, you know, all of that but I think we cannot lose sight of the fact that we don't have to tolerate that we do not have to put up with that. And this is why we speak to the true strength of coalition or building, and this is why an organization like not much is is really really exciting because it, it gives us that agency of connecting playwrights directors, production companies from all around the country to be able to stand up together and not just as isolated voices and get the backlash as on individual, but rather is this is the statement from the entire community. I want to go to a question in the chat and then one final audience in person question. So Giselle asks, I'm curious about the possibility of changing criticism from one person critiquing and writing a singular article to having two to four different people have a dialogue and then writing about dialogue into newspapers. Melek mentioned that critics might need for PhDs, but what if we put several months together to have a dialogue after a play and publish their conversation instead. I like that idea. I love that idea. The cutbacks in newspapers that are happening, it's hard enough to get one critic on a newspaper staff at all. And so this is the problem so then maybe we need to just be unfortunately asked to be paid either an honorarium or volunteer or whatever in order to have a that kind of dialogue or panel about the work I don't know but that's a great idea. And that does happen more often in theater podcasts, you know I have actually seen that model heard that model as it works their podcast in which multiple critics will see a show and have a conversation about it. But that type of model hasn't necessarily translated to published media outlets yet but I have seen it in podcast and actually think it's effective because in a way. So any good criticism is it is a conversation so taking that form and putting it into actual conversation between people of different viewpoints we've seen the show does open up I think a lot of interesting perspectives that sort of a one person sort of critical response, sometimes can't, you know. Certainly within potential realm of possibilities of what does. There's a lot of conversations about decolonizing theater and decentralizing and deconstructing a lot of the systemic issues and maybe this is part of it. How do we decolonize theater criticism. I want to praise you Sarah I want to praise how about I want to praise those academic critics that are writing long form criticism in academic journals now granted these things get published like a year and a half after the production closes, but they're there for posterity sake and that's really important that future generations can look back. Middle Eastern American generations can look back and say, Oh, that's a really great critique by a Middle Eastern American art scholar about a Middle Eastern American play. So, so I just, I want to, I want to tip my hat to, to all of those academic scholars that are writing real academic and long form criticism of these works that will hopefully outlast all the less, you know, I in my opinion, lesser journalistic critiques that come out regularly. That is that is the hope and thank you for that Melik you're leading a lot of that and it's a lot of that work. It's a tiny but mighty community and we're excited for the future that we're continuing to build with that. One final question I'm awkwardly walking towards Susie. What is your question actually very similar to the one that was just read, and I always am like it doesn't work. Can we throw it away and do our star anew. When we talk about long form academic or newspaper criticism from art critics, can we say there's so many media, so much media that is able to reach people very quickly so not being delayed to laughter show where we can, can we be our critics, can we find you to tick tock social media and finding this way of having that and building audience especially at building new audience, who can find out about those things, and maybe say we don't have to do it. That same way or we don't have to rely on those same people to gatekeep what can be said about our work. The possibilities, the possibilities of growth of how we can continue. How can we continue developing this and, and how can we fix the system but also how can we completely get rid of what isn't serving our communities. And what we know has never served and moving forward with it as well. And with that I don't see any other questions in the, in the chat. Well the role, what's the role of audiences receiving these critiques. That is a very good question. What is the role of audiences receiving these critiques. I want to answer. I mean I think it depends on what an audience member is seeking out. If if they are, if they are seeking out a review, you know and actually just to the comment that was just made, it's like, what is the purpose of criticism right So we can have another three hour session about that right because in some ways right is criticism about a prospective audience member being, should I see this show or should I not right, or is it actually a tool for, let's say, an artist to, and this is why I go to the point about like the art of criticism and the function of criticism right like, if I can learn from a critical response that if the intended effect of my work was named, acknowledged, and then criticized right, then that that piece of criticism is really providing a very important function to me as the artist right, which I think in a way is sort of the, what criticism was actually meant to do is like analyzing the intended effect of the piece of art right and whether from that critics expert opinion that is happening or not. I think what is sometimes problematic is that we're also sort of conflating criticism with like audience engagement right and I often bring up this point in relation specifically to criticism right that, you know, like let's say in the ecosystem of new York here in New York, there are, there is essentially one publication that sort of holds in the future of so much of what a play can be which is the New York Times right and one of the conversations we've often had is like, why is one publication, you know, granted that much power I don't say in the film industry, if you know, A. O. Scott says, you know, this film is a masterpiece, you know that film could still bomb, right, or if A. O. Scott says this play is a piece of crap. This movie is a piece of crap, people might still go and see it you know like people are going to see whatever, you know, a superhero movie even if A. O. Scott thinks it's crap right, whereas you know what happens in theater, when one critic is saying this play is the most important play of a play and therefore that, you know, makes a playwright's career, that's one person's opinion right. So, again, it's like what is the intended effect of criticism, right, both intrinsically and extrinsically right, and that functions very differently depending on what market you're talking about and what application you're talking about the intended effect so it's it's a it's actually a very very sort of complex issue in terms of like how criticism affects our work as theater artists right and and what it's doing in the individual markets. Yeah. Maybe we need a website like rotten but a dura or something. We can, we can bring all these critiques together. The problem is we don't have that many, you know I mean in the film if you look at rotten tomatoes there's like 30 critics, and you can read a diversity of criticism and make your own mind up with us, we literally might have two critiques out there. And so maybe there there might be a way that we can try to find a way to have more voices brought together. I mean, what about the idea of us filming our productions only for a group of critics that are across the country that are in the American community and so everybody can write these critiques and post them somewhere or, you know, created, create our own journal or something. You know that might be a way of doing this I don't know but yeah I think cutting we need that we need more. We just need that diversity of voices and multiplicity of the voices, the way the film industry has. We just don't have it right now and I think that that really injures us, and it doesn't really help us to raise all the boats, so to speak. I am so sad that we are going to have to cut this conversation over here I feel that we have just only scratched the surface. And I think that this is where we're unleashing a new possibility and we're having these wonderful conversations. And I'm really excited that we're having on during monatmos convening as well, because I think that we have the capacity to shape the future of theater and maybe it's on digital realm. Maybe that possibility that you just envision Malik is not actually that far away from us. So we could actually it is within our grasp. And through coalitional building we can do that. I want to, I want to thank you again, Karim and Malik for joining us today thank you so much I want to thank my in person audience. It's been an absolute pleasure having both of you here I'm, and I'm also so, so appreciative of our audiences on zoom for being here. And I, and as always, I want to thank Wendy raise for your technical support and so the rest of the Golden Threads, small, the mighty team, so hard Michelle Linda Sheila and David, we could not do this without you about your continuous support. I would also like to thank how round for hosting this live stream event. A recording and recording of this session will be available on both how round and golden threads websites. So last but not least, thank you again so very much. Heather of course thank you so much for that and, and I hope that you have a wonderful rest of your day, and please check them not my website and Golden Threads websites. If you would like to continue being a part of this conversation we would love to continue engaging you. So thank you again and have a wonderful rest of your day. Thank you. Thanks. Take care.