 So a prepared introduction sounds a lot more formal than what it actually is just a slide that says hi. I'm Nathan That's me. So I am from Birmingham, Alabama Where it is exactly the same weather as it is here, which is not right in some way I got here my wife said so is it cold there and I'm like, yeah, it's like 30 degrees, but it's a dry cold It did work. Yeah, okay. All right. Yeah, I actually did say that she didn't think it was funny But I said that they'll probably think it's funny here. Maybe not So I am the lead organizer for word camp Birmingham. I love word camps. I did 10 word camps last year Probably do 12 this year all across the country and I'm really really excited to be with you guys today I'm the host at I themes training which how many of you are familiar with I themes we do backup buddy I think security number of other plugins. Okay, so We do it's like word camp all year long. It's webinars one to three webinars a week all year long So I do I present some and I host all of them. I have been a freelance business owner since 1995 Which means I'm a geezer when it comes to all things tech You know, I started coding websites when the internet was just beginning to walk upright So I've used all the tools in the world and move to WordPress about 2010 Love love WordPress love the community. I started as a business coach for WordPress freelancers a few years ago And that is a passion of mine. So Let's talk about why we're here, which is how many of you are business owners or freelancers or somebody working with clients? How many of you enjoy working with clients? Okay depends on the client right, okay now that's another talk all together, but What we're gonna talk about today is something that I feel is very important and that is how many of you do something like hey We're sitting down over a cup of coffee talking about your website for the first time a Meeting with the client That's what I call the client consultation and if you're not careful you can really end up wasting a lot of time So I call it the scope strategy and I'll explain that in a little bit But it's really had a master the client consultation get the most out of that time that you're investing with the client So one morning. I'm sitting in a coffee shop And I'm meeting with this brand new person I just met over the phone once and we're talking about his website and I think you know This is a person that really has some potential if you ever had that feeling You know you meet with somebody you're kind of clicking the coffee's good you're talking and I realized it's been 45 minutes And this guy's still talking about his dog that escaped from the fence last night and how he's wandering the neighborhood now I love dogs. We have two they're both rescues. I love dogs But I don't love dogs 45 minutes worth in a coffee shop with somebody I bet you barely know right that's not why I'm here So it's been like 45 minutes and when we finally get around to the website This guy doesn't know what he wants what he needs what it's budget. He has no clue. You ever had a conversation like that? So if you ever spent hours talking to a client and gotten nowhere in a first meeting Okay, so one day. I'm sitting in my car and I've just finished Meeting with a client. I think the meeting is going very very well, and I'm convinced I'm gonna get the project Have you been there? You know you have this great meeting or it's a great phone calling. I mean I've got this one We're gonna get this one signed and you know I'm sort of doing a happy dance as as much as a person can while sitting in a car and then it hits me like you know That feeling again. It's like a splash of cold water like oh crap. I Forgot to talk anything about Maintenance services for their WordPress website And if I've learned something over the years It's that if you don't start talking about the maintenance contract in the first conversation. You're never gonna sell it So I thought ah I missed it. So have you ever? Left a meeting with the client and realized that you forgot to cover something important for the project ever done it Yeah Okay, so I'm sitting there checking my email one day and I'm waiting on a reply from a client that I'd send a proposal to and You know, this was a proposal that to be quite frankly I was a little nervous about and I spent hours anybody spent hours Pouring over the proposal making sure all the adjectives are right, you know, and then you're tweaking the pricing, right? Okay, should I charge thirty five hundred dollars or maybe it should be thirty eight hundred dollars thirty seven seventy five Because they say sevens are good in pricing, right? So you get all the psych and you use psychological stuff with pricing and you're arguing around yourself And you spent three hours on this proposal and then I get the email back from the client. I'm all excited After I'd spent hours agonizing the reply from the client was I was thinking it was gonna be like 750 bucks Ever had that conversation? So have you ever? Spent time agonizing over proposal like that only discover you were way off the client's price point If you have it then you're awesome because this those are three scenarios that I hear all the time from freelancers, so This is why I'm talking this morning You desperately need a strategy for client consultations desperately So what we're gonna talk about today is the first of all the purpose of a client consultation and then what I call the scope strategy It's an acronym and that acronym will keep you on track through the course of a client consultation You won't forget anything. So by the way, I'll pause for questions at the end of each section I don't know how much time we're gonna have this is usually like an hour So we'll see what we are on time. Maybe we'll do questions definitely questions at the end when we have time But if you're a freelancer or a business owner Let's have lunch today. Seriously, let's get a table full of people, you know other like-minded business owners Let's just talk about WordPress business. Okay, so find me at lunch. Let's talk. Okay, so Why do we need the scope strategy? We need a scope strategy to take control of the client meeting You are spending your time with this client. You're not being paid for it yet So you are spending time you got to think about your time that way you're spending time to meet with the client So you got to make that time count, right? So let's talk about the purpose. Why are we here? What are we doing and really I find a lot of times that when you're trying to figure out what you're doing It's better to start with what you shouldn't be doing So this is what the client consultation is not The client consultation is not you trying to sell a website. You got to get that thought out of your mind The first meeting with a client think of it like a first date Because you got to figure out if this relationship is going to work or not. How many of you have taken bad clients? That's all really nobody else has had bad clients. I've had like 80 Okay, so in that first conversation you got to make sure this thing is going to work Don't go in there trying to sell a website because you're going to miss all the red flags the client throws in that Conversation we're going to talk about that in a minute The client consultation is not To refine the client's business plan If you've ever spent time with a client over coffee helping them hammer out what they're actually trying to do This is not you're not being paid for this yet This is a consultation to figure out what the website is supposed to be not what the client in their business is supposed to be Now that's a separate service that you may or may not be able to offer But that's not the purpose of the initial consultation. It's also and this is a good way to think of it in your mind The initial consultation is not to answer howl questions You're there to discover the what of what needs to happen. Does that make sense? The howl comes later after a check has been cashed The what is what you're doing in that initial client consultation? And by the way the link I'm going to give you at the end has all the slides So if you're furiously scribbling down, you'll be able to download all these slides as a PDF. No worries Also, when we get to the strategy, there's a one pager. I'm going to give you with all the questions on there So you don't have to scribble So this is what the consultation is not what is it really about here's the five purposes of the client consultation And it's wrapped up in this acronym of scope and what we're going to do is go through first of all Just what those letters stand for then we're going to spend some time on each section Okay, so the essence scope is really easy to remember it stands for scope. How about that easy, right? So as in scope stands for scope you need to learn enough about the project to create a proposal for most of us That's where that it stops But there's four more steps that we need to take into account So first scope that's what you're probably used to and you sit down with a client the C is chemistry You need to determine if this is a client that you can really work with or not Okay, the O in scope is ongoing services explain the importance of your ongoing services And let me just say this you do have ongoing services, right? You're offering WordPress maintenance plans and hosting maybe and whatever because if you're not I promise you it is virtually Impossible to be successful in a WordPress business as a freelancer If you're not offering some sort of ongoing recurring revenue, that's another talk. The P in scope is process Set expectations with a potential client by walking them through the process that you'd make to build a website By the way, do you have a process that you use for every client every project every time? If you don't you should E is estimate and this is the secret sauce Provide a ballpark estimate and get client buy-in. I'm gonna get more into that now using this method and say I hate that I always struggle over whether to put this slide in or not literally at the bat during the radio show this morning I was deciding whether or not I was gonna put this slide in because I don't want it to feel like oily salesy, you know Whatever, but honestly this process works. I closed over 90% of the proposals that I made last year using this process Okay, so not trying to be oily salesy, but it does work Okay, let's dig into the essence scope and this is where we're gonna spend the most of our time because this is where all The questions are to uncover all the hidden landmines in this project that you may or may not be about to take on So in the essence scope we're trying to learn enough about the project to create a proposal So here the there are five main buckets of questions. This is the way I like to visualize this as you are Looking at this conversation Five buckets of questions now you can go in and out of these buckets as you want to just to make the conversation natural You can make it structured you can make it whatever you want to make it But these five buckets need to be covered in the scope conversation So the business purpose website launch and budget so and I would say look you need to create some sort of a checklist for yourself for every conversation or You're gonna forget something how many of you forget something if you don't have a checklist because I sure do if pilots Who've been flying for 30 years still run a checklist to take off into land or whatever? I Need a checklist no matter how long I've been doing this. Okay, so let's talk about the business This is the first bucket the business bucket starts to ask some questions that I find most freelancers Don't ask in a client consultation, which is hey, what's your elevator picture coffee shop answer when somebody wants to know? What it is that you do how do you answer what do you do? What do you make what is your competition? Who's your ideal customer? Why do why should they choose you instead of the competition? Now there's a few more here as well. What's your price point? How do your customers find you now? Do you have their brand identity now your goal in asking these kinds of questions is to figure out? Do they really understand their business or not? Because I've had lots of conversations with clients that have this grand idea That is simply an idea with no plan to get there And if you it's impossible to be successful building a website when the client themselves don't understand What they're even trying to accomplish? Now let me let me caveat that by saying you can build a website. I mean you can we can all build a website, right? But it may or may not be successful and Whether you're successful in the website or not depends on what the client's goals are and if they've Articulated them to the place where you can actually reach them So, you know the client may not be ready for a website yet And that's okay if not suggest some sort of consulting arrangement Maybe you can help the client figure those things out or work with a marketing person that can help the client figure those things out but The business bucket is all about figuring out does the client understand what he or she is really trying to do Then we get into the actual purpose bucket How does the web fit into your marketing strategy? Is it like you know, we hope if we build it they will come Doesn't work that way anymore How does this fit in? Why should your ideal customer come to your site? What are your goals for your website? So the goal in this bucket of questions is to figure out how much strategy assistance am I going to have to provide to the client? Is that going to be part of this proposal or not and again the client may not be ready So it may be time to suggest a discovery phase Which is essentially just another scope of work where you're going to say we're going to answer these five questions It's going to cost you this much and at the end here's a document with all the answers from that we can build your website Now we get to the part of the bucket of questions Which is where most people start and end which is just what do we want the website to be and to do and you're probably already Asking questions like this. Do you have a domain name? Who's our point of contact? Where is content for the site going to come from that's a loaded question, isn't it? How many of you have had clients that expect that you the web professional are going to provide all the content for the website? Yeah, it's not the way it should work Yeah, so roughly how many pages is the site going to include we need to kind of know is this the five-page brochure site or is this like Danelle has a site where there's eight million capacitors, right? Seriously talk to her about that 7,000 who wants to do that site? 7,000 capacitors since Yeah Are they going to be blogging or sharing news items? They're going to be selling things online. Do they need an event calendar? Do the clients need to log in for any reason because that's a very deep and dark burrow that we have to go down Are you going to use social media? Which networks do you have videos? Testimonials by the way, do you have the testimonials already because that can take four months? Is there any third-party integration at all that's going to be required? Should the website simply be a credibility piece or do you want to generate leads from search results? If you write down one question write down that one Because what you'll find is many a lot of people don't want to spend the money on SEO and guess what sometimes that's okay Wordpress does pretty well out of the box with SEO everything structured correctly And a lot of clients don't have the infrastructure to handle a hundred calls a day They want to have a nice piece that if they're out talking somewhere that here's my domain name in this site Gives credibility to who I am So it's a good question to ask aside from communicating information. Is there anything else the website needs to do? I always end the conversation with that question. Have we missed anything? So the goal here is to create that solid scope of work in the proposal that we're going to give to the client Then move into the launch bucket and again, I'm going to give you all these questions on the one pager So don't worry about scrolling these down Do we have a deadline? How do you handle email? Have you ever gotten to the point where you're launching a website and you realize? Oh, oh The client has 86 email addresses on their old cPanel hosting system And now we've got to move all that stuff somehow and oh lord am I gonna have to set up all those new email addresses on client computers? No, thank you By the way, how many of you do email for your clients? Good not many Email will drive you absolutely insane I quit doing email for clients about three years ago because I realized actually four years ago I realized that 80% of my support inquiries where I got a new iPhone. I can't set up my email Email is an IT issue not a web design issue by the way, that's a great answer for the client Who's gonna be responsible for maintaining the site after it's been launched? That's a great little segue into the sectional ongoing services So your goal here is determine time frame start the discussion about those ongoing services then we get to the B word the budget So do you have a ballpark budget for this project if it's a low budget? Can we simplify things nothing wrong with working with a client that has a low budget if it's a reasonable scope for the money? Maybe we can phase things in What's the decision-making process and you actually deciding who's gonna build your website? When do you expect to make the final decision? You're trying to figure out here in my wasting time with this person or not? most Web developers that I've worked with or talked with Struggle talking about money with the client does that sound familiar and we kind of avoid it You got to start getting comfortable with talking about money with the client. It's okay You're here to make money. We love what we do, but we do what we do to make money, right? I mean ultimately got to put food on the table So make sure you're not wasting money with the client get into the budget conversation All right, we have successfully passed the S in scope everybody's still with me That was like the fire hose of questions, which I'm gonna give you on the one pager But you see how this is structured, right? We're gonna ask a whole bunch of questions about the scope now We're gonna get into the intangible part of chemistry Is this a client I can actually work with now the C is second because The most of your conversation with the client is going to be had Through the S through the scope fleshing out what this website is supposed to be and do and by the end of that Conversation which probably will take 45 to 50 minutes of the hour that you'll spend with the client You'll have you should have a good feeling of is this a person I can work with or not does that make sense? So we've kind of worked through the process now. We're just kind of making a call Do I have chemistry with this person or not? And if I do great, let's keep on going if I don't nice to meet you. We'll talk someday Right, or you know, maybe you have the business card of a web developer in your area that you don't like that You hand to that client. No, I would never do that probably not but I would never do that. So here's just a couple of suggestions when you get to chemistry listen Listen as you're asking those scope questions ask a question and then shut up and listen to what the client says But not only what the client says, but how they say it Watch for red flags because by the end of that scope phase you want to have a good feeling whether you know Whether this is a good person or not Here's a couple common red flags I see a lot of times with clients. The first is unanswered questions We talked about this a little bit earlier, but you know the client doesn't know what they need This is a red flag and again that discovery phase is a really great first step for a lot of clients Just unanswered questions are not necessarily bad But gosh if you're trying to build a website and there's a huge question mark over what this whole thing is going to be and do Then the chance of that client I've been waiting to say this taking a left turn at Albuquerque in the middle of the project is high How about this one disrespectful us if the client is a jerk When you're talking to them This person is on a first date Think about that You're getting the best version of the client in this conversation that you'll ever get Seriously if the client is a jerk in the initial consultation If they don't listen if they interrupt if they won't answer your questions if they start nickel and diming you already red flag If there are scheduling problems if the client reschedules that initial call or meeting two or three times That that habit does not change throughout the project That client will become what I call the invisible man who disappears halfway through the project and reappears six months later with Unreasonable demands to get that project accomplished at a certain time frame. So again, you know, there are legitimate reasons for Scheduling issues sure, but just it's a red flag. Watch it complaining if the client had a previous web developer who did everything wrong You want to dig into that like big-time? Because chances are it's not the client now There are some knucklehead web developers out there and maybe you guys have gotten rescue work from developers who evaporated and did stupid things Whatever it is about our profession it draws those kinds of people in but If the client is constantly complaining about this mysterious web developer who did everything wrong It's also very likely that if you take this project in six months That client is going to be sitting across from someone else at a coffee shop telling them how terrible you were Because some people just can't be satisfied dig into that Emergencies the client needs everything immediately Or there's lots of drama If everything the client says has an explanation explanation point behind it Careful with that one Again, there couldn't be legitimate reasons for emergencies But it's a red flag And here's a couple of frequent mistakes I see people making in context of identifying these red flags in the chemistry section the first is what I call running a red light and that is thinking that that red flag is no big deal or Making excuses for the client you have to do that in the back of your mind Oh, I realize this is kind of weird But we make our own excuses for why the client might be doing this or whatever and because we really we want to sell a Website and make things work, but if you take a bad client if you take a bad client You'll never you'll never Doesn't matter how much money that you make from this client You will always spend more in emotional capital in dealing with a bad client always So red flags or icebergs in this conversation you only see the tip there's a whole lot more beneath the surface So don't run a red light. Don't disregard the red flags. The second is what I call the hero syndrome I'm fleshing this out. This will eventually be a talk, but I'm not gonna ask for a show of hands but there are probably people in this room who understand what I say that you have the perpetual need to fix the client and This is usually not confined just to the business part of your world. You have a need to fix people and If you try to run your business that way you'll never have a successful business You just can't do it. There's no way. It's sort of a client codependency. Ultimately, it will wreck your business So be aware of the hero syndrome Okay, so we've gotten through scope We've gotten through chemistry the client gets a thumbs up. This is the person I think I can work with now we get to the O in scope, which is the ongoing services This is the part of the conversation where we explain the importance of our ongoing services when you're selling website management Services education is the key You will not be able to survive long term as a freelance web developer or WordPress business owner If you do not have some component of your business wrapped up in recurring revenue You just can't do it if you're trying to live by selling websites It'll work for a while, but you'll peter out matter of fact I'm just about convinced that many of these disappearing web developers We hear a lot about are good well-meaning people who tried to build their business just selling websites And they couldn't do it so now they're working for somebody else and their clients are on the hook Because they can't find their web developer. They've gone and got a job a real job somewhere real job Freelance web developers are people who are willing to work 60 hours a week to avoid having to work 40 And if that's your heart and passion, you are my kind of person Okay So you're not asking for commitment yet. You're simply explaining. Hey WordPress is awesome However, it has to be taken care of it's got to be managed just has to So and I always tell people look we provide you training on how to do it yourself. We provide a white glove service Okay Ongoing services have to be discussed in that first conversation. I promise you if you have trouble selling recurring services If you move that discussion to the very first conversation, I promise you'll convert more clients Okay, P the process Set expectations with the client by walking through your process And I mentioned this earlier because I think it's critical for every freelance web developer to have a consistent Process that they use for every client every project every time I've got another talk on this there's information about that on my website, but You got to have a consistent process if you get consistent with a consistent theme and plug-in stack with a way that method That you work every project you will become more efficient more effective and more profitable It just will happen So you got to get this process and yeah every client every project every time so talk it through with the client This is the way I build websites explain the steps that are involved explain the tools that you use Set expectations early So I explained to the client. I've got a friend in Atlanta. I use this phrase that every word can't talk I do because it's just I mean Genius this is one of those guys that you're talking to him and he just says something and you're like boom That's like Mike drop, you know, this is and he's like what I just say and he's one of these guys that just you know Spews that kind of incredible wisdom and he made a statement to me a couple years ago He said, you know, we've moved our process around so that we don't do any code before content No code before content. It's beautiful Think about it if you could start to build a website and you had all the assets a hundred percent at the beginning How quickly could you build that website? But instead what do we do it's six months later, and we're still waiting on the dad gum group picture of the employees in the business, right? Or we're waiting on the text for the about page still three months later No code before content. So our process is look when you sign our contract You're gonna get back from us a document and that's gonna be your to-do list for all the content of the website We don't move another inch Until all of that content and assets is completely delivered When we do that then we give you a design then we build a site out then we launch it and we get client input at every point But this is the way we build sites so the expectations are set early make sense Scope chemistry ongoing services. We're talking through our process and how we do things now comes the secret sauce the estimate How many of you give an estimate to the client at that first Conversation or do you wait and surprise them with that number in a proposal later? For years it was the surprise number in the proposal hoping that the client and I were magically in the same wavelength of what this price ought to be So here's what I do. I Give a ballpark estimate at the end of every client consultation By this point you want to know you want to have a feeling in your bones about roughly what a site like this should cost And so I end the conversation with something like this Mr. Client Mrs. Client based on what we've said this project feels like about a five to six thousand dollar project If I come back to you with a proposal in that price range, are you ready to start so at that first time at this first Conversation before I ever write the proposal. I'm gonna get a buy-in from the client on about a thousand dollar range and Proposals contain no surprises. It's always gonna come back in that range Now the tricky part here is understanding, you know, what this kind of thing ought to take, you know, how much it ought to You know what a what the numbers should be and you'll get it wrong sometimes sometimes you'll go too low Sometimes you'll go too high it all gets, you know, it comes out in the wash and you get better at it over time But if you do this, this is what this is gonna avoid That reply back from the client that said I was expecting 750 bucks The kid next door to me said he'd do it for 500 Go for it The ballpark estimate will save you more time now. Was that 10 minutes until I'm at we're like next session Okay All right, so I have 10 more minutes to talk and then we have 10 more minutes after that. Okay, so we have time for questions That's great. So getting client buy-in Starts with a question something like this and if they say no, I'm not ready to start I need to dig into why do you have to get three more bids? You know Are you looking for a $2,000 website not a $6,000 website, you know, we need to have that conversation now right If you do that, this is what I did 90% of my proposals last year that I wrote were closed and the 10% that didn't are just on hold Hopefully they'll materialize this year So that is the scope strategy We have eight minutes or so for questions. So Here's my website Nathaningroom.com slash WCA BQ That page has All the slides it has the one pager of all the questions from the scope process on there Which you can use as is or refine it to your business You can find me always at training.i-themes.com two or three times a week We do webinars there and let's do that table talk. So questions right here Are you also estimating the maintenance the ongoing maintenance? Great. Okay, so I tell so the question wise for the video Do does the ballpark estimate also include the cost of maintenance and yeah I always when I give them when I'm on the O and I'm talking about ongoing services Typically for us a maintenance client for a typical non e-commerce No members logging in basic websites about a hundred bucks a month and so I tell them that Yeah, this this feels like a five to six thousand dollar project, you know, also the maintenance costs. We've talked about that already. Yeah, good question. Yes It can depends on how you're structured Okay, so let's so the question is doesn't maintenance work eat into your time as a developer So you got to define what's included in maintenance work For us the basic package is going to be hosting on our server It's gonna be a daily WordPress backup weekly WordPress plugin updates and a security plug-in installed and monitored about hundred dollars a month That's no content changes no content edits if they want content edits. We do that a couple of different ways But that's more money You know so at that point, you know if you're small you're servicing 20 or 30 clients You're not gonna hear from most of your clients every month first of all But as you start to grow bigger you've got that recurring revenue piece in you can afford to hire somebody to come in and do some basic client maintenance for you That does answer your question It is questions Really? Right that in the back So I'm not sure I understand the question. Oh, okay Yeah, why should okay, so the question is how can a freelance web developer? I'm gonna paraphrase your question. How can a freelance web developer survive in the world of wicks and Squarespace? Is that your question? Okay, we shall not speak ill of go daddy because they are a global sponsor And there are also lots of other web developing companies go daddy By the way, if anybody in this room has a poor opinion of go daddy. You need to look at what they're doing today Go look go talk to Mendel go daddy's doing some pretty cool stuff these days Okay, so the wicks and Squarespace question how many of you run up against that or you're worried about it yourself Okay Lot of people I mean whenever I talk to a group lot of this is a big worry. So here's the answer Have you ever so if you're if you're watching a commercial and you know wicks has this beautiful commercial and these beautiful websites? People are building on wicks. Have you ever seen one really? Like that a per actual person has built themselves It's pretty horrible it really is pretty horrible and It's like okay, you know I could go to Home Depot and like buy a kitchen tile and do it myself Or I could hire a professional because if I do it myself Like there's gonna be some that are like off and like smeared caulk everywhere. I'm that it's not gonna go well I mean, maybe okay, but it's not gonna be professional. So the difference is We're at word camp. I love WordPress Everything in my business is about WordPress But WordPress is just one tool that I've used over the last 25 years to build websites I'm in the business not of building WordPress websites I'm in the business of helping clients communicate effectively to their constituency on the web in such a way that it creates conversion for them WordPress today, I think it's the very best tool to do that if you want to use wicks or Squarespace That's fine find somebody else. But if you try to build a wicks or Squarespace site You're not gonna get the same kind of results You're gonna get from having a professional web developer who understands the how these things work build the site for you also SEO on wicks sucks It's like awful right there Coating as well as What means you decide that WordPress was the best way to go and did you find that your experience in coding Great question. Okay, so for the video the question is how did I make the move from just building straight-up websites into WordPress and Did understanding having a background help in WordPress first of all? I would never call myself a coder. I know enough PHP for self-defense I hire the coding piece out. I think it's really complicated So did it help absolutely because I mean you got a new HTML and CSS to just build web I mean no matter what you're using the reason I moved to WordPress is that more and more of my clients wanted to be able To log in and make small changes themselves I've got a great story about that I can tell I just want time now But it I had to make a continental shift in the way my business was structured from a few clients with large retainers How I mean to make all the edits into more clients with smaller retainers, which is a much better way to do things Trust super important Great question and for the video the question was about Regional differences and how you deal with clients and maybe it does take time to talk about the weather You know to build chemistry you know your region, you know your area I think in the big picture what you're trying to do is not waste a ton of time So make you know if in your world it does take you know half hour 45 minutes to build that chemistry Before you get in maybe your client consultations are two hours instead of one hour But I would still put limits around them because otherwise there are certain clients who will talk your ear off and never give you a dime It's a great question Two minutes one more question anybody right here In two minutes really okay, so the question is how do you do with pricing so? Let me sum it up with this if you talk to anybody anywhere who tells you they've got you their pricing figured out Be suspicious I'll tell you I've been doing this for 20 Since 1995 22 and a half years now and I still struggle with pricing I price some a little too much I price some a little too low it all comes out. I get better over time. There is no secret formula to pricing What you you know what I would tell you to do is just ask people what they're charging for websites Ask people you know other freelancers people you mean to meet up ask them what they're charging, you know the other thing is look Generally speaking there are three price ranges at any market. There's the college kid who can do it for you know low money There's the agency who's going to be 10 grand plus to walk in the door And you can usually find a really nice happy medium in the middle somewhere to price your work That's a great question more more of an answer that I have time for at the moment. Let's talk after Okay, I think we're done find me on Nathan in your comm and training dot I things calm. Thanks very much